Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

I've literally never used L for anything in smash, besides playing around with it when I was first practicing/learning to WD OoS. I use R for everything. Similar to what SynikaL said, it's difficult for me to remain precise with the joystick when pressing L.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Similar to what SynikaL said, it's difficult for me to remain precise with the joystick when pressing L.

I can see how that can be a problem.

-

Spoiler

Freaks!

 

[SynikaL]

To be fair, Tommy, even your Ganon makes me cringe at times, lol. I feel as though I can look at any vid of a Ganon/Falcon and tell if they L-Cancel with L.

Here's a few names off the top, if anyone knows for sure what button they use:

Kage, Darkrain, Guini, Spectre, Xzalla.


-Kimo

 

[Divinokage]

To be fair, Tommy, even your Ganon makes me cringe at times, lol. I feel as though I can look at any vid of a Ganon/Falcon and tell if they L-Cancel with L.

Here's a few names off the top, if anyone knows for sure what button they use:

Kage, Darkrain, Guini, Spectre, Xzalla.


-Kimo

I L-Cancel with R, wave dash with R and shield with R. =P

 

[SynikaL]

Owned.


-Kimo

 

[DippnDots]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226469

Same holds for L vs R vs Z, it's all about what's comfortable for YOU

 

[SynikaL]

I agree that one should use what's comfortable to them, but that doesn't mean there aren't objective variables involved.

For example, precision L-Cancels can be more forgiving with the triggers because they're analog buttons. You don't have to be as precise during the cancel window. The Z-Button is digital, forcing your timing to be a bit more strict.

*shrug*

If you're comfortable with your setup, you'll innovate to get around any hurdles. Canceling with L feels comfy to me, but I suck with it.

-Kimo

 

[RestInPeace]

That's why I used R. I never encountered any problems, except for smooth WD OoS. But I can just not hold R all the way down, and jump OoS -> Press R all the way down. I just never had the patience to try learning it that way. Does anyone else have tricks for WD OoS? Other than alternating L/R, because that just meses up my timing and feels awkward.

 

[SynikaL]

You just have to consider where you're placing your focus in the sequence of actions. You're probably practicing doing it all at once, and getting Side Dodges and Rolls often. Try focusing on pressing Jump while Shielding and going from there.

I often practice it by Light Shielding. Light Shielding puts my hand in a position where I have to focus on pressing Jump using my thumb, first. Dunno, hard explain, but try that out and see if you realize where I'm coming from. It just seems to help me partition all the actions accordingly, which is key.

Also, if you don't have the patience to practice minutia, you may never be good at those types of things.

*edit*

Also, don't be afraid to let go of the Shield button before pressing Jump. You still have a few frames before the Shield Drop animation starts, where you can still Jump Oos. The difference in efficiency is negligible.

-Kye
(I was shocked when Tommy told me he couldn't WD out of Shield)

 

[spider_sense]

Kye I don't think I can make FL Gaming dude, but I'm down to train with you tomorrow for a bit, if you're willing to come to ZP. =/

I really really I could go, when I actually have cash on me to spot gas, enter singles, buy food etc. Btw, How do you wavedash out of shield and I'm still having trouble with reverse ledge dashing and wall tech consistently? Any ideas on how to practice? Also what's your favorite drink btw? :3

 

[Divinokage]

That's why I used R. I never encountered any problems, except for smooth WD OoS. But I can just not hold R all the way down, and jump OoS -> Press R all the way down. I just never had the patience to try learning it that way. Does anyone else have tricks for WD OoS? Other than alternating L/R, because that just meses up my timing and feels awkward.

Well when you have an atomic index ya you can do whatever you want lol. Rockcrock laughed at me because when I L-cancel I press the R button 3 times lol. Which is why, my index is fast enough to do everything. I think it's just a matter of preference and practice too. I don't know about efficiency though.. oh well. =P

 

[RestInPeace]

I thought if you mis-timed an L-cancel or tech, you have to wait a few frames before you can press it again to do it? That's what I read somewhere. Just tried to search it, but can't find it. It was to answer a question of if you have horrific timing, would it be better to spam the L button to tech. lol.

 

[DGoscar]

I'm pretty sure the need to pause between pressing L or R only applies to techs.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I'm pretty sure the need to pause between pressing L or R only applies to techs.

Really? If anyone can confirm that I think I'll be spamming block a lot more.

 

[-ACE-]

That is correct. Back in the day I used to hit R twice to cover more options (I'd almost always get the L-cancel whether the aerial hit, missed or got shielded).. now I just hit it once and time it the best I can. Sometimes I still hit R more than once if say, I dair 2 shielding IC's and I'm nervous lol.. crazy delay on that and it always takes me a few games to get used to.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I'm gonna go ape **** mashing the L button.

 

[DGoscar]

- When you press L/R to tech you will tech if you collide with a surface for the next 20 frames, and be unable to tech for the following 40 after that.

- You can't press L/R to tech during hitlag.

- ASDI occurs directly after hitlag, so if you rely on ASDI to tech then your window to time the tech will be 20 minus the hitlag of the attack, and you should press it before you get hit.

Magus we <3 you.

 

[CluelessBTD]

L-canceling, powershielding, wavedashing, and wavelanding would be SO much more precise if it were only legal to remove the trigger springs. I've tried it and I have never been more technical in my life. Since removing them is illegal, I'm thinking about swinging by the local hardware store to find some finer springs that are less resistant to pressure. Nobody will ever know >:D

'Cept you guys of course

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

That would be a good idea. I'd like to have one trigger (R) modded like that. I had a controller for brawl when I played it the whole ten times that had modded triggers and it made the game phenomenal. For Melee I just liked the ease in power shielding. I think I might actually consider modding a controller to play with. Fvck tournaments. hainsaw:

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I haven't even touched my L button before.

Wavedashing out of shield is simple with just one button. You have to be fast though. Like Kage said, atomic lol

 

[CluelessBTD]

Seriously, if you can do it, then do it. I think it should be allowed cuz when it comes down to it, every player is different. Some people have fast spider fingers, some people have slow bear mitts. Why not allow minor mods like that to compensate for physical disadvantages? What about crippled smashers like Broly who play with one hand?

If it was allowed, this game could move to an entirely new level.

 

[-ACE-]

I see where you're going Clue but in the competitive realm I think it's a little too hard to distinguish between "physical distadvantages" and "you're just not trying/practicing/focusing enough"

You'd have to draw the line somewhere to be fair and that would be too difficult imo.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I'm just gonna do it. The tournament scene doesn't define the standard of my play style. I would like to see how I'd progress with it. It would help a lot with powershielding and parrying out of it. with the analog triggers that **** just kills you.

 

[CluelessBTD]

I just don't see what difference it makes. Competitive play should not be about limiting your technical abilities, but rather, advancing your mindgames. If somebody doesn't like it, they can go play Brawl. Who could complain about controller mods in that game?

Really though, the only people who complain about controller mods are the people who already have pianist hands or the ones who just lost in a tournament match. Some idiot TO once tried to disqualify me for using a controller with a purple back and a white front. I threatened to throw his a** out of his own venue. Of course, he didn't argue. He was just mad cuz I beat him.

If you're gonna ban controller mods, why don't we just ban energy drinks or ginseng and ginkgo biloba supplements? I play better with a Monster energy, but some people are caffiene sensitive and can't handle it. You see what I'm saying? You can't just go and ban everything that helps people perform.

 

[SynikaL]

Clue and Tommy:

Wow, are you guys being serious?

Seriously?

I just have to make sure before I even attempt to give this current discussion a serious response.


-Kimo

 

[-ACE-]

Whoa, easy dude.. I'd never complain about my opponent having a simple mod like you described, I don't give a **** lol. I'm just saying there's more than one aspect to it. I've trained my fingers to become fast, they weren't always fast. Who's to say everyone else can't do the same without modded controllers? Just one example. No disrespect bro.

 

[SynikaL]

Anything that gives an artificial advantage in ANY competitive outlet is BAD. No matter how insignificant it may seem to you. You don't even have to be technical at this game to be good. If you don't want to put in the time to hit your technical vision, adjust your style accordingly or quit competitive Smash. Simple.


GTFO, with this stuff, you guys are going to ruin the integrity of the scene. This isn't 90's era baseball.


-Kimo

 

[CluelessBTD]

I'm being serious. I could just sit and hit my L and R triggers all day for a few months till the springs lose integrity the natural way, or I could just buy some weaker springs. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference. Technically, it would have been modded, but it functions the same way a "broken-in" controller would. If I could get away with just taking the spring out, I would...but I'm sure some whine-o would notice.

Also, people play with different brands of controllers that function slightly differently, so why don't I just start my own line of Smash controls that have a shortened analog slider so that they are easier to depress? I'm just saying, since nobody's controller is exactly the same, what difference does it make?

If the game allowed us to have custom button configurations, would it be legal to do that? ANYBODY could just pop open their control and take out a spring, it's all about preference.


EDIT: One more thing to mention...I have a friend that mains Fox. He's the best and Houston and among the most technical. HOWEVER, using fox the way he does makes his fingers really tired and he has to take breaks to keep playing consistently. His springs are stiffer than other controllers, so it's somewhat "unfair."

If he had money to buy his own controller he would, but instead he has to borrow my sh**** second control every time. It would just be easier to replace the springs.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Anything that gives an artificial advantage in ANY competitive outlet is BAD. No matter how insignificant it may seem to you. You don't even have to be technical at this game to be good. If you don't want to put in the time to hit your technical vision, adjust your style accordingly or quit competitive Smash. Simple.


GTFO, with this stuff, you guys are going to ruin the integrity of the scene. This isn't 90's era baseball.


-Kimo

Integrity of the scene is defined by the players. Like I said I don't care about the tournament scene. The only reason I play is because I found a group of smashers by my area that I enjoying playing with. It has nothing to do with the competitive scene and everything with me enjoying the game. Now obviously when I hit up a tourney I'd be using a regular controller but I won't strike this idea out cause it's unpopular. I'm surprised out of everyone you're against this Kye. Personally I think I could learn using a controller like the one explained. Kinda like what AR did for my game, watching the execution of certain techs or movements frame by frame helped me in my real time play. The modded controller will teach me how to react and the timing needed. Pressing the triggers all the way down quick is no problem for me. I tend to hold though instead of depressing quick. A controller like that could help me curb that habit.

As a tourney legal controller, the scene is too close minded for it. As a controller to help develop timing in power shielding/parrying techs, there could be something there. What makes me think this is how I got RLD down. At first I could only do them on certain stages and on the right side but then I started doing ledge dash moonwalks. As weird as it sounds the movement of going left right and right left helped my RLD. Now I'm confident enough to do it on any stage without worries or having to over think it. Now apply this to highly under emphasized power shielding/parry techs. How can you learn the timing to it (parrying most specifically) when the initial execution is often thwarted cause of an error in how you depress the button? Why wait to learn how to depress consistently when you could learn the techs succeeding it and see if it's even worth your time?

Now modding a controller might not even be the answer but starting the game with the trigger button of your choice held down could be a start to seeing whether something like this could help improve your game. Don't sleep on it just yet. The smash community is infamous for dismissing ideas until someone comes out shining with it.

-Bringing the 90's back! :snes:

Edit: Kye have you seen THIS?

 

[SynikaL]

Clue:

A controller missing it's springs and a controller having weary springs are two completely different things. Not sure I'd have a problem with replacing them with weaker springs though. Some GC controllers spring's suck.

Integrity of the scene is defined by the players.

Bingo. It's clearly been defined by this small society that a modified controller hurts the integrity of competitive play, and an overwhelming majority agrees. Of course, that doesn't make the majority right, but the burden of proof is on the minority, not us.

I'm surprised out of everyone you're against this Kye.

Why wouldn't I be? I put an obscene amount of time into this game back in the day to acquire my tech skill. I was motivated by my imagination to become the most technical Smash player out there. In my mind, at one point, I succeeded. A dream, constructed out of a single brick, hard work and innovation. The process was just as rewarding as the conclusion. Why would I want to see any other player's talents undermined by controller mods? Why would I want my own talents and hardwork undermined by other players controller mods?

Personally I think I could learn using a controller like the one explained. Kinda like what AR did for my game, watching the execution of certain techs or movements frame by frame helped me in my real time play. The modded controller will teach me how to react and the timing needed. Pressing the triggers all the way down quick is no problem for me. I tend to hold though instead of depressing quick. A controller like that could help me curb that habit.

If it's just a practice method, that's cool, and innovative. I have no qualms with that, as long as it's kept in the home.

Now apply this to highly under emphasized power shielding/parry techs. How can you learn the timing to it (parrying most specifically) when the initial execution is often thwarted cause of an error in how you depress the button? Why wait to learn how to depress consistently when you could learn the techs succeeding it and see if it's even worth your time?

That's where practice comes in. Problem is, people often lack the patience and imagination to see the rewards of practicing mundane things, such as power shielding, which is why techniques like that often never catch on in competitive communities unless someone breaks out with it and shows the benefits -- like Pivoting (which is still way underused). Power Shielding itself isn't even that difficult (I had Parry DOWN at one point), it just requires a dedicated mind.

The smash community is infamous for dismissing ideas until someone comes out shining with it.

The Smash community gets way too much flack from people claiming vantage points they don't actually own.

Edit: Kye have you seen THIS?

Yeah, I saw it after you Faved it. Did you ever find out which Ganon that was?



-Kimo
(and anyone that thinks being technical is about having fast hands... that's why you're not technical)

 

[spider_sense]

Clue:

A controller missing it's springs and a controller having weary springs are two completely different things. Not sure I'd have a problem with replacing them with weaker springs though. Some GC controllers spring's suck.



Bingo. It's clearly been defined by this small society that a modified controller hurts the integrity of competitive play, and an overwhelming majority agrees. Of course, that doesn't make the majority right, but the burden of proof is on the minority, not us.



Why wouldn't I be? I put an obscene amount of time into this game back in the day to acquire my tech skill. I was motivated by my imagination to become the most technical Smash player out there. In my mind, at one point, I succeeded. A dream, constructed out of a single brick, hard work and innovation. The process was just as rewarding as the conclusion. Why would I want to see any other player's talents undermined by controller mods? Why would I want my own talents and hardwork undermined by other players controller mods?




If it's just a practice method, that's cool, and innovative. I have no qualms with that, as long as it's kept in the home.




That's where practice comes in. Problem is, people often lack the patience and imagination to see the rewards of practicing mundane things, such as power shielding, which is why techniques like that often never catch on in competitive communities unless someone breaks out with it and shows the benefits -- like Pivoting (which is still way underused). Power Shielding itself isn't even that difficult (I had Parry DOWN at one point), it just requires a dedicated mind.



The Smash community gets way too much flack from people claiming vantage points they don't actually own.






Yeah, I saw it after you Faved it. Did you ever find out which Ganon that was?



-Kimo
(and anyone that thinks being technical is about having fast hands... that's why you're not technical)

lol I recently figured out that it takes precision more of less, but then I watch guys like Chops, who can move there hands ridiculously fast. Then I watch guys like you Kye, who don't move as fast, but every action they do with their character seems so accurate. I want to be a really technical player that has added intelligence to his game. Because to be a really good player, you have to be technical AND smart.

@ Kye- It's not so much that people aren't willing to disregard other techs in favor of other ones, it's just that most tech skills require the assistance of two people (which for most of us; isn't feasible) It's kinda unfair to call those people "impatient" or "unimaginative" when they aren't even presented with a steady partner at will.

For example: I would love to be able to learn how to power shield lasers, but I really can't because I only know two Falco players, and they live a considerably big distance away from me; not to mention they have their own personal lives to attend to on a daily basis , and I don't want to bother them constantly just to play a video game.

Oh and I always thought you played with some sort of modded controller, or at least broke it into your preference Kye. I remember you specially complaining about not having your "moonwalking controller" (I lul'd btw lol) So what makes that controller so different from the other conventional controller out there? Why not just use any other regular controller to moonwalk around with? (Just asking, not trying to pick a fight, cuz I know you'll beat me up :D )

 

[Divinokage]

lol I recently figured out that it takes precision more of less, but then I watch guys like Chops, who can move there hands ridiculously fast. Then I watch guys like you Kye, who don't move as fast, but every action they do with their character seems so accurate. I want to be a really technical player that has added intelligence to his game. Because to be a really good player, you have to be technical AND smart.

@ Kye- It's not so much that people aren't willing to disregard other techs in favor of other ones, it's just that most tech skills require the assistance of two people (which for most of us; isn't feasible) It's kinda unfair to call those people "impatient" or "unimaginative" when they aren't even presented with a steady partner at will.

For example: I would love to be able to learn how to power shield lasers, but I really can't because I only know two Falco players, and they live a considerably big distance away from me; not to mention they have their own personal lives to attend to on a daily basis , and I don't want to bother them constantly just to play a video game.

Oh and I always thought you played with some sort of modded controller, or at least broke it into your preference Kye. I remember you specially complaining about not having your "moonwalking controller" (I lul'd btw lol) So what makes that controller so different from the other conventional controller out there? Why not just use any other regular controller to moonwalk around with? (Just asking, not trying to pick a fight, cuz I know you'll beat me up :D )

Well ya the top players has the balance between technical and mindgames or accuracy. There is obviously basic technical every character needs and if you can get everything down then all that's left is trying to overcome the other player by guessing right all the time. I think even powershielding comes naturally at some point. I've been trying to use it as much as possible combined with a jab perhaps and I think I've gotten better at it. It depends of the matchup, I can do it a lot vs Falcon or Peach. I have a hardtime powershielding lasers but I keep trying =P.. Anyways ya pretty much...

 

[Scar]

hey can i just interject with the claim that it's silly to talk about balance here

the best players are VERY technical and VERY smart. period. there is no balance.

to be the best you need to have a very strong understanding of the game and matchups and theory, be smart enough to find openings and fast enough to take advantage of them. experience furthers all of those things which is why it's so important. also playing a good character doesn't hurt LOL @ GANON

 

[Divinokage]

hey can i just interject with the claim that it's silly to talk about balance here

the best players are VERY technical and VERY smart. period. there is no balance.

to be the best you need to have a very strong understanding of the game and matchups and theory, be smart enough to find openings and fast enough to take advantage of them. experience furthers all of those things which is why it's so important. also playing a good character doesn't hurt LOL @ GANON

So you are saying Falcon is a good character but not Ganon? lol. But ya I guess it's true the top players control the frames very well and all that. =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Scar you should pick up Ganon he's got like an even matchup with Falco.

 

[Scar]

no CF sucks

 

[KirbyKaze]

Everyone sucks in this game.

Except gay characters.

 

[Divinokage]

Everyone sucks in this game.

Except gay characters.

Every character is gay in their own way!

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think a lot of characters are only "gay" because people let them be gay to them, and don't gay them back hard enough.

 

[spider_sense]

Rofl @ Scar. I'll murk your Falcon any day bud. =P

But support Scar's claim. It does take a very smart/technical player to make it to the top. I believe there's an old thread even committed to this statement. I'll have to look it up sometime.

Kage - I think if you just had someone to practice with almost everyday; you could easily grasp the concept of power shielding at will. haha (True story) I've been teaching my 9 year old niece, how to SHL with Falco just so I can get that tech down. She's actually pretty technical (at least with that), and I told her I'd teach her Jigglypuff, so watch out Scar...Mango won't be the only kid to be looking out for.