Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bl@ckChris]

play some sheik. it's made my ganon take a small leap from where it was.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

lol raph, that was a good answer. ill probably just keep on practicing with my friends and whatnot. after all, maybe smym wasnt the best choice of first tournament to go to. ah well.

as for ian, i also recommend what raph said about taking a break. it will really clear your head.

 

[Vionce]

play some sheik. it's made my ganon take a small leap from where it was.

interesting, i've felt like i haven't gotten any better as shiek so i play more ganon now. I think playing ganon highlights what i'm not doing right since he doesn't have easy auto combos and requires more precision.

 

[Divinokage]

lol raph, that was a good answer. ill probably just keep on practicing with my friends and whatnot. after all, maybe smym wasnt the best choice of first tournament to go to. ah well.

as for ian, i also recommend what raph said about taking a break. it will really clear your head.

Why not? The more people there is, the more you can learn about different styles. The best tournaments to go are always the largest ones.

 

[Geenareeno]

I think what he was saying was that if he went to a small local where everyone was bad he would have learned more. Kage must have forgotten what it's like to not be at the top.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Well, I agree with that kage, like there's definitely a lot to learn. But I played a ton of friendlies and got totally wrecked. Like to the point where I couldn't learn anything because I was being beaten too badly. For example, I played 2 friendlies with darkrain and I only got one legitimate hit on him (RLD to fair-- SOOOOOOOOO good vs falcon, I love it). the other hits I got were just errors on his part for the most part. Although darkrain *****, so no surprises.

Point is I felt like there was nothing I could even do at that point because everybody there was just way out of my league. Don't get me wrong, I know for a fact I'm going to improve, but I feel like playing against people your level is the way to go because that way I can actually consciously work on tech things and mind games.

 

[Divinokage]

I think what he was saying was that if he went to a small local where everyone was bad he would have learned more. Kage must have forgotten what it's like to not be at the top.

Hm.. I don't think I did. I always looked for opponents stronger than me to force myself beyond what I normally can, it worked out for me very well in the end.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I think I'm like Kage. I learn more and have more fun when I'm getting destroyed by people who are way better than me.

That being said, I don't think there's anyone here who's around my level.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

That sounds good in theory, but here's the story of 99% of my matches yesterday: they dash dance. I whiff an attack. They punish. I get comboed. I get edge guarded. 4 stock.

I feel like I just can't learn anything at that point. Not only is it frustrating, but it seems impossible because I don't know where to start. Unless you have any advice otherwise?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Wait a bit. My games with PP and the other good players around here are like that, and it usually takes me a couple days before I can start learning from them.

 

[Divinokage]

Well then it seems like you have to work on your basics a little more. If you whiff an attack that generally means that gives your opponent an opportunity for them to hit you. If you got comboed then your DI was probably incorrect. Let's see here.. You gotta be able to recognize why you got hit in the first place. The way I did it was simply take one move at a time from every character and see what I'm supposed to do first. Like if I get hit by Marth's Fair, I know I need to DI away from him to avoid getting comboed. Or then.. I got hit by Marth's Fair because I already committed from the air and he counter-attacked or he attacked me before my aerial came out. Just this one situation, you can ask yourself questions. Also, knowing that you can shield Marth's Fair if he does it early and then Uair him before he lands OOS. And then if he does it late on my shield, then I can maybe hit him preemptively or just shield it and WD OOS or roll away. Once you know all that, then you can get creative with just this one situation.. like attack him from different angles.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you are getting dd camped there are a few options:

1) realize they are dd camping and wont be where your attacks are being thrown, and instead overshoot your attack to compensate.
2) do an attack further out of their range in order to bait them into attempting a grab they dont have, and punish (fsmash, sideb, and other tuck moves help here)
3) pretend to do an aerial, land normally and throw out a hitbox that will stuff their grab attempt.

sh waveland ftilt is sorta #1 and #3

 

[Divinokage]

Usually if they are DDing for me, I get closer to them to eat up his space because at some point they won't have enough space to DD anymore and they'll have to throw out something at some point. Especially with Ganon I cannot catch myself to commit first while they are still ready for it. I mean when you understand the position in between you and your opponent then you'll generally know what they'll look for depending on how far or close you are. I usually stay pretty grounded in this case. I mean like you can jump but don't really commit to it, stay tricky with wavelands and wavedash to eat up space because that's what you generally want with Ganon. You have to cage in your opponents.. at least that's how I see it. Use your range to prevent options basically.

And then from your movement, that's where the basic situations come in again.. if he's a bit too far for tilting, then I know he will go for either an aerial or a grab.. and then bam counter-attack.

Oh ya, I think I forgot to mention also.. know your moves, know your hitboxes and what you can do with it. Control your character, you have to be able to Short hop, full jump, double jump and fastfall every aerial with proper L-canceling on the ground and on your opponent. (Also on his shield) Understanding the properties of the moves themselves can help a lot too I find. When you do, that's when you can do ******** mix-ups lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the better i get, the more kage's advice seems dead on perfect.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I try to give out advice but, it's hard to write it in a way where the person I'm trying to help understands it because I don't know how they think or how they see the game. I mean I tend to talk from my own experience and how I learned to play the game so it worked out for me, I'm sure others can benefit from it too. However, everyone does need to find their own little tricks how to improve imo.. I can't really walk your own road basically.

I seem to remember now that you need to do everything you can to stop worrying about yourself which is why mastering your control is very important. In battle, it's a little too much to worry about you and your opponent at the same time. Meaning the first goal to the next level imo should be to have great control over your own character.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You have to kage in your opponents.

So that's where Kage comes from.

 

[Divinokage]

So that's where Kage comes from.

Hm.. not initially but somehow it ended up being my style regardless lol.

 

[Renth]

I've hit a wall. I literally have no idea how to improve, and I feel 100% helpless.

What do? My interest in the game is fading for the first time since I picked up a Gamecube controller back in 2007.

You have a money match with me this weekend and you aren't backing out of it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Thank you. All of you. I guess I should just work on the basics, as you said kage. Like on my approaches and baiting attacks. I have no idea whatsoever how to bait attacks at all. Any tips?

And Sveet, I can't wait to come up and smash with the chicago crew, I expect to learn tons from all of you guys.

 

[Divinokage]

Baiting attacks is generally about spacing. You have to stay close but not too close to your opponent, that's what you want most of the time. When you are in that position, let's say close enough for you to hit at the tip of your dtilt, maybe slightly further, that's where your opponent will feel more threatened. When you get in that zone, that's where you have to understand the basics a lot more... because in that zone there's only so much the opponent can throw out depending on the speed and range the character has. You also need to know what the player will tend to do more. So, judging from your current options and his.. what is more likely to happen? So let's say he's fox and then inside his DD throws out a SH Nair because he's starting to already be close to the ledge.. if you saw it coming already then you can either backjump SH Fair or turnaround and dair over his nair. See? If instead he decided to go on a platform or Bair, then you may be able to Ftilt him or uair him depending on where he is.

When I meant understanding your moves, I mean like you really have to know how your moves beat other moves like you can't just throw out Fair for no reason, everything needs a purpose before hand. You have to know for example that generally Fair is used as a counter-attack, not really as a spacing tool. It just so happens sometimes you will have made a bad guess and hit his shield (spaced of course because if you didn't hit Fair on someone's shield with the tip of your punch then you'll get grabbed or hit) which isn't a big deal. You have to know also Fair can be used to maneuver around hitboxes because the Fair hitbox itself can allow you to subtlely hit around another hitbox causing them to whiff first but yours will hit. Also to be used in techchasing or combos because the range is nice. Also like uair is generally really good against opponent's on platforms and basically most attacks that come from above, it beats a good deal of things.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Mark, I'm literally only going if you are. Are you confirmed?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And Sveet, I can't wait to come up and smash with the chicago crew, I expect to learn tons from all of you guys.

Look forward to playing you soon ^__^

 

[Renth]

mark, i'm literally only going if you are. Are you confirmed?

100% .

 

[G. Vice]

Whoa, Renth's back!

Sup Mark how ya been man?

 

[Renth]

Whoa, Renth's back!

Sup Mark how ya been man?

Miserable. Long story short I guess.

Heading to Florida to blow off some steam and smash out some angry demons. Chill with some good homies

 

[Renth]

Anyway, Flight to north carolina is boarding gotta get off the laptop, i'll be in orlando tonight around 6

 

[G. Vice]

Miserable. Long story short I guess.

Heading to Florida to blow off some steam and smash out some angry demons. Chill with some good homies

Sorry things ain't been well man. I was actually talking to Ben last night and heard alot about some stuff going on with the people from there. Crazy stuff is going on in PA.

Glad to see that you still love melee though.

 

[Renth]

Sorry things ain't been well man. I was actually talking to Ben last night and heard alot about some stuff going on with the people from there. Crazy stuff is going on in PA.

Glad to see that you still love melee though.

lol I don't talk to any of the people I use to talk to that you met through me back there guy. What I'm referring to has nothing to do with any of them.


This also isn't a chatroom i'm sure you have other means of contact if you want to talk to me. I'll leave the ganon boards spam at this.

 

[G. Vice]

lol I don't talk to any of the people I use to talk to that you met through me back there guy. What I'm referring to has nothing to do with any of them.


This also isn't a chatroom i'm sure you have other means of contact if you want to talk to me. I'll leave the ganon boards spam at this.

Aight, good luck at the tourney you're going to. Hope to see some recordings!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You're in NC? Let's hang out and play Ganon dittos while you're waiting for your flight to Orlando. I'm sure they won't mind us bringing a TV into the airport.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Baiting attacks is generally about spacing. You have to stay close but not too close to your opponent, that's what you want most of the time. When you are in that position, let's say close enough for you to hit at the tip of your dtilt, maybe slightly further, that's where your opponent will feel more threatened. When you get in that zone, that's where you have to understand the basics a lot more... because in that zone there's only so much the opponent can throw out depending on the speed and range the character has. You also need to know what the player will tend to do more. So, judging from your current options and his.. what is more likely to happen? So let's say he's fox and then inside his DD throws out a SH Nair because he's starting to already be close to the ledge.. if you saw it coming already then you can either backjump SH Fair or turnaround and dair over his nair. See? If instead he decided to go on a platform or Bair, then you may be able to Ftilt him or uair him depending on where he is.

When I meant understanding your moves, I mean like you really have to know how your moves beat other moves like you can't just throw out Fair for no reason, everything needs a purpose before hand. You have to know for example that generally Fair is used as a counter-attack, not really as a spacing tool. It just so happens sometimes you will have made a bad guess and hit his shield (spaced of course because if you didn't hit Fair on someone's shield with the tip of your punch then you'll get grabbed or hit) which isn't a big deal. You have to know also Fair can be used to maneuver around hitboxes because the Fair hitbox itself can allow you to subtlely hit around another hitbox causing them to whiff first but yours will hit. Also to be used in techchasing or combos because the range is nice. Also like uair is generally really good against opponent's on platforms and basically most attacks that come from above, it beats a good deal of things.

Thank you kage, for this in depth analysis. Usually it's about the way of the warrior to win your battles.

I've been learning lately that I have just been spamming moves (like dair and fair) and hoping that they connect, rather than using them as bait or spacing tools. I've realized that fair is mostly just a counter attack (pretty good against approaching falcons).

This is a question for anybody in particular: is there a good way to influence/read somebody's tech? I've gotten pretty good at it, but obviously I would like a darkrain style success rate lol.

 

[Divinokage]

If you want to bait better then you pretty much have to work on your positioning, that's all. Every single player will not want Ganon close to them, that's what they don't want. I mean Ganon's presence already scares them, keep that in mind. They'll do everything like hit and run or pressure you inside your shield or on you. (Because that's where you don't want to be) Being in shield while a Fox is doing his stuff isn't good at all lol, it's tough to escape sometimes. So you have to do your best to be extra precise to not let someone get in so easily, maneuver around platforms if you really need to.

As for tech reads, I'll get back on that a bit later. =P

 

[-ACE-]

correction: quarter circle DI works at the X points not the + points. If you wanted to get 2 instances of up, you would want to rotate it past top left and top right. The left and right would cancel each other out and you would get 2 going up.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4hZpdb5FU

Magus exposed! I'm pretty sure he always said it was the + points but I might be wrong.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Thank you kage, for this in depth analysis. Usually it's about the way of the warrior to win your battles.

Don't worry. Even though he didn't mention it, the way of the warrior still helps a lot. It's something you obtain through hard work and difficult experiences, only to reach and enlightenment that gives you the strength of a superman. With this newfound conviction, you have the way of the warrior, a lifestyle and mental state that allows you to do anything you set your mind to. This is the true way of the warrior, and what Kage uses to win all of his battles. You need to learn the way of the warrior if you truly want to be a Ganon main.

 

[Renth]

You're in NC? Let's hang out and play Ganon dittos while you're waiting for your flight to Orlando. I'm sure they won't mind us bringing a TV into the airport.

Hahaha I wish. There's some people I have to visit in NC anyway so it may happen one day anyway. (EverlastingYayhuzzz)

 

[spider_sense]

Mark, hit me up if you're going to that tournament in Seminole. Hope everything is well in your life man, keep positive.

 

[Magus420]

What Sveet said about SDI is wrong. It's just off from the + points. More specifically it's by going from a min threshold negative to positive, or positive to negative on an axis. You can get SDIs in nearly the same direction every frame by going back and forth as little as like 15 degrees away or so from the + points.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wahhhhhhhhhht?????!!!!!!!!

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyaQZbrEOT0 Highlight video number 2 of friendlies! =D

 

[PseudoTurtle]

New combo (at least, I've never seen it): dair near to ledge to WF spike. It's possible at certain percents (for falcon its about 60, give or take), now make it happen.