Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Geenareeno]

I hope you play green Fox, otherwise it would ruin my image of you. Like how whenever I play Fox (Note that my Fox is absolutely terrible, so I only use it against my friends who I can beat with my Kirby) I always use Lavender Fox.

Im sorry but... LOL LAVENDER FOX

 

[G. Vice]

Didn't we play in the random character couch tournament? We were supposed to MM but never did

I play all characters. Fox is my best by far, but i enjoy strategies for all characters. Ganon is not one of the characters I have developed very well. Sheik/Falco/Marth are my 2nd tier of characters and Peach is kinda in a weird zone where I played her a lot but she isn't as good as my other characters. After that theres characters that I understand from playing against them a lot but not so much from experience. Ganon falls into that category.


I've played with LoOshKiN a lot for the last few years, and his ganon is pretty legit. Him and Mundungu taught me what I needed to know about the MUs

I think you're right...I'm pretty sure you 2-1'd me in the random tourney lol. I played Looshkin too, yeah he ain't too bad. We actually MM'd.

 

[Divinokage]

I'd definitely like to MM with my secondaries one day. =P My Marth is getting a lot better as well. Though my friends are already saying that I have a wacky Marth, Idk if that's good or not.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Monthly this weekend. Wish me luck, guys. Really going to try and put everything to good use.

 

[G. Vice]

I'd definitely like to MM with my secondaries one day. =P My Marth is getting a lot better as well. Though my friends are already saying that I have a wacky Marth, Idk if that's good or not.

Bring that falcon back at me and I'll beat it again

 

[Divinokage]

I changed completely, you will not be able to stand to my power!

 

[G. Vice]

I changed completely, you will not be able to stand to my power!

Bring it bro! Lol, would be fun.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Monthly this weekend. Wish me luck, guys. Really going to try and put everything to good use.

Good luck, dude!

As for me,FIRST EVER tourney tomorrow. The goal is to beat at least one person in pools. Man, im excited for this...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Good luck to both of you.

Kage, I'll take on your secondaries with my secondary, or my Ganon if my Kirby isn't good enough.

 

[Divinokage]

Hehe alrighty then. =)

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Technical question for all you Ganons. I've been working recently on SDIing into the side of the stage and teching off it. A while ago Chris said to use Mines to help me practice this. I'm pretty sure there's something I'm missing, though, given that every time I try I either get blown up and die or Air dodge and avoid the blast, then fall down and die. Usually I get blown up, though. Can you guys elaborate on what I should be doing?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, if you don't have enough damage, it won't work. just like if you get spiked by falco at like 30% you can't tech, but you'll still die (hate that ****)

so at 0%, if you're trying to tech a bomb, it won't work. make it so that your percent is like 80-100% and try again.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Alright, I'll try it at those percentages. I was dying before I got that high.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, i actually practiced the same way. I would place a mine near the edge, but still on the stage, get myself up to about 80-90% and try to tech... i missed a ton of them haha

Question chris: can you push r/l slightly before getting blown up or does it have to be simultaneous?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Can one of you guys explain in detail exactly what I should be doing? I tried slowing it down to help me get the timing, and all that happened is I did a ledgehop-sidestep and dodged the explosion.

I'm pretty sure that I'm missing some important detail, given that I'm not getting anywhere, and I've already been working on this for a while.

EDIT2: My finger hurts a lot now from pressing R so much. I still haven't succeeded, though.

 

[Vionce]

How do I fight falcon? I just get completely out spaced by the nair and knee. I've tried throwing out up angled ftilt whenever he approaches, but the knee beats it. Plus, it's not too hard to bait since I'm just trying to react to his jump.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Jab or sideB can counter both of those. I haven't tried it, but I think you could Fair a knee with the right timing. Try to retreating Fair to get him to nair or knee, then punish him for it. You can also keep your back to him to use Bairs. Crouch cancelling and DIing out of combos will help a lot. I haven't played Falcon much, but that's what I've gathered from my experience and the advice I've been given by players who are better than me.

 

[Vionce]

Jab or sideB can counter both of those. I haven't tried it, but I think you could Fair a knee with the right timing. Try to retreating Fair to get him to nair or knee, then punish him for it. You can also keep your back to him to use Bairs. Crouch cancelling and DIing out of combos will help a lot. I haven't played Falcon much, but that's what I've gathered from my experience and the advice I've been given by players who are better than me.

I've never had much success with sideb since they can just nair right through it. The leanback only works if they try to hit with falcon's foot instead of body. But I'll try jabbing more.

anyway, one more question, how much of tech chasing is reaction vs prediction?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In this situation, forget the leanback. The uppercut stops every aerial if timed correctly.

As for tech chasing, I can't give you any advice there. I don't practice with real people, so I'm terrible at it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Vionce, i probably know the falcon matchup better than any other matchup, and its definitely doable. There are 2 things you need to know in the matchup: dont get grabbed and dont get comboed.

If its a grab happy falcon, prioritize with tilts and jabs. If you do get grabbed, i find tech rolling away is the best option, using it about 75% of the time because it limits his options - hes fast.

To beat out nair, crouch cancel everything. To beat the knee, time a jab well or you can space a retreating fair if the u-ftilt isnt working (which it typically should).

To avoid getting comboed, di away. Always away, even off stage. Up and away or down and away are my go-tos, depending on percent.

Now, on the offensive: grabs are LETHAL in this matchup. One grab could be the stock with successful tech chasing (READ ACE'S GUIDE ON TECH CHASING FAST FALLERS). I like to do grab to stomp to grab to fair and on small stages (eg yoshis, FoD) that sets up for an edge guard that should mean the stock. Work on influencing which way he tech rolls with mindgames.

Learn to do the rockcrock. Its not super helpful, but its totally bad *** when it happens and you get mad style points haha.

Ooh, one more thing: shielding is bad. Dont shield unless you absolutely have to. You can outprioritize all of falcons moves.

Whew. Hope this helped, man! happy ganoning.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd definitely like to MM with my secondaries one day. =P My Marth is getting a lot better as well. Though my friends are already saying that I have a wacky Marth, Idk if that's good or not.

I would own ur marff

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, mines are tough to learn it with. the easiest thing to do is learn it with an opponent, specifically falco who likes to downsmash. yes, you can hit it a little early, in fact, i think about a quarter second (15 frames) is about the buffer time you want. you can tech any time within the 20 frames after you hit r (i think), but usually i hit the button sort of early to cover a lot of early hits for a tech, while still catching the later frames where i could be hit.

teching is really fun. you really do wanna try to use both the c stick and the control stick as a quarter circle from toward the stage to up. it's hard to combine everything at the same time, but once you get used to it, it becomes really natural like it is for me.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

so with both the control stick and the c-stick, you wanna do that quarter circle? Is that how you can end it in a bair? Because i actually played a falco today who used dsmash as an edge guard, so, needless to say, I worked on my teching, but always was too far from the stage to bair him.

 

[Divinokage]

I would own ur marff

I wonder about that.. =)

 

[-ACE-]

Technical question for all you Ganons. I've been working recently on SDIing into the side of the stage and teching off it. A while ago Chris said to use Mines to help me practice this. I'm pretty sure there's something I'm missing, though, given that every time I try I either get blown up and die or Air dodge and avoid the blast, then fall down and die. Usually I get blown up, though. Can you guys elaborate on what I should be doing?

You can only SDI during hitlag, while you are being hit. You must hit R within 20 frames (1/3 second) of the frame you will tech (15 is a good number to soot for like Chris said though. If you hit R about halfway through your up-b, and then SDI when you hit, you should be good. The key is knowing when you opponent will strike. Marth's dtilt is tough, as is jiggs dsmash. For the most part, stronger attacks have more hitlag and are easier to SDI. Charged marth fsmash or shield breaker are easy (get used to slight delay on shield breaker).

Chris you do not need both sticks. The C-stick basically does nothing. The c-stick is ONLY necessary for choosing a specific direction for ASDI that is different from the direction in which your control stick is pointed for SDI (ledgeteching situation) or directional DI (ground tech situation). Most "double stick techs" (on the ground) consist of the 2 sticks pointing in different directions so you can get your ASDI direction through the c-stick and your normal, directional di from the control stick. The same exact thing can be achieved by using the control stock alone if you are able to switch from your preferred direction of ASDI to your preferred direction of directional DI frame perfectly.

If I confused any newcomers:
SDI = hitlag only, moves your character a small set distance.
ASDI = the only thing that influences your initial direction of knockback aside from the natural direction of knockback characteristic of the move that hit you
Directional DI = as soon as your ACTUAL direction of knockback has been determined (by the move that hit you + your ASDI), use the control stick to provide influence to your direction (the account of influence increases as the strength of knockback decreases (as you slow down after being hit).

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Thanks a lot. I'll try to do it the way you guys have been saying. I'll pay extra attention to it if I happen to be playing a Falco.

Alright, I think I've gotten pretty good at doing it against bombs. Now all that's left is doing it against real people. That'll take some work, given that I was in a perfect situation for it today, and instead got KOed by a Lv1 Luigi's taunt. It was kind of embarrassing.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Interesting. I thought the cstick gave a slightly stacked effect even while edge teching.

Ugh idk if I've ever teched a jiggs dsmash. I think I always assume an fsmash and when the dmsash comes I'm way early lol. I've gotten my share of dtilts, but that dsmash from jiggs really is weird to deal with lol.

 

[smashkng]

http://sv.twitch.tv/primat91/b/311230029 (starts at 2:20, no audio until 9:57)
http://sv.twitch.tv/primat91/b/311231530
Not sure where to post this, but this was first Melee tourney I've attended, anyone critique? I'm the Ganon

 

[Vionce]

Vionce, i probably know the falcon matchup better than any other matchup, and its definitely doable. There are 2 things you need to know in the matchup: dont get grabbed and dont get comboed.

If its a grab happy falcon, prioritize with tilts and jabs. If you do get grabbed, i find tech rolling away is the best option, using it about 75% of the time because it limits his options - hes fast.

To beat out nair, crouch cancel everything. To beat the knee, time a jab well or you can space a retreating fair if the u-ftilt isnt working (which it typically should).

To avoid getting comboed, di away. Always away, even off stage. Up and away or down and away are my go-tos, depending on percent.

Now, on the offensive: grabs are LETHAL in this matchup. One grab could be the stock with successful tech chasing (READ ACE'S GUIDE ON TECH CHASING FAST FALLERS). I like to do grab to stomp to grab to fair and on small stages (eg yoshis, FoD) that sets up for an edge guard that should mean the stock. Work on influencing which way he tech rolls with mindgames.

Learn to do the rockcrock. Its not super helpful, but its totally bad *** when it happens and you get mad style points haha.

Ooh, one more thing: shielding is bad. Dont shield unless you absolutely have to. You can outprioritize all of falcons moves.

Whew. Hope this helped, man! happy ganoning.

i see. Thanks, I have a big problem with crouch canceling (i never think to do it). The only time I ever crouch cancel is by accident or if i'm trying to do soemthing else.

 

[-ACE-]

also with quarter circle SDI, you MUST start below the "equator" (below horizontal) to get the SDI input left or right (whichever direction is toward the stage). You must also pass the "prime meridian" (go past up a tad) to get the upward SDI. So definitely do more than a 90 degree swing, at least 100 or some **** (make sure you start below left/right and go past up) to get both. If you are landing walltechs every time you are probably achieving that from successfully inputting the left/right SDI and hitting up a frame later makes it a walltech, if I had to guess.

^^mainly for raph

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Thanks. Wallteching is where I do the jump afterwards, right? Is it better for them to be walltechs, or does it depend on the situation?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if you think you can walltech bair and hit your opponent, go for it. otherwise, walltech up B is usually better (i can't think of a situation where it missed)

i haven't gotten it yet, but somewhere in my dreams i imagine a walltech waveland ftilt/jab as being one of the most ridiculous recovery counterstrikes, but it's still a dream lol.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Why do you have to plant ideas like that in my head?

Now I want it to be real...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

All right, so i discovered truly how bad i am at this game today. I got 2-0'd in every single match in pools lol. Needless to say, im pretty discouraged. I want to get good FAST, but idk how to practice. Help? Thanks in advance.

 

[Geenareeno]

I don't think that's possible Chris. Would you do it with walltechjump?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

All right, so i discovered truly how bad i am at this game today. I got 2-0'd in every single match in pools lol. Needless to say, im pretty discouraged. I want to get good FAST, but idk how to practice. Help? Thanks in advance.

Are there going to be any videos? You said you've been playing for 4 months, the same as me. If we're at about the same level, then you're probably also the worst player in your region.

As for improving, my best recommendation is to move to Shelby, NC and practice with PP 24/7. Other than that, just hard work.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I've hit a wall. I literally have no idea how to improve, and I feel 100% helpless.

What do? My interest in the game is fading for the first time since I picked up a Gamecube controller back in 2007.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Take a break for a few weeks and do something else. Don't think about Melee at all. An idea will probably pop into your head, and you'll be able to get better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

also with quarter circle SDI, you MUST start below the "equator" (below horizontal) to get the SDI input left or right (whichever direction is toward the stage). You must also pass the "prime meridian" (go past up a tad) to get the upward SDI. So definitely do more than a 90 degree swing, at least 100 or some **** (make sure you start below left/right and go past up) to get both. If you are landing walltechs every time you are probably achieving that from successfully inputting the left/right SDI and hitting up a frame later makes it a walltech, if I had to guess.

^^mainly for raph

correction: quarter circle DI works at the X points not the + points. If you wanted to get 2 instances of up, you would want to rotate it past top left and top right. The left and right would cancel each other out and you would get 2 going up.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4hZpdb5FU

 

[Divinokage]

I've hit a wall. I literally have no idea how to improve, and I feel 100% helpless.

What do? My interest in the game is fading for the first time since I picked up a Gamecube controller back in 2007.

I cant really walk your own road, everyone has to figure out what works best for them.. if not it's impossible to reach the top level. There's no use in creating reasons for your losses or mistakes.. however you have to know why you lost. When you can allow yourself to be honest then that's where you usually see what you can do next.