How to defeat Sheik?!

[Z3R0 HEAVEN]

Okay people of SmashBoards! My mains are Marth and all-mighty C. Falcon and I'm here to discover the way to defeat Sheik who has been the most irritating character in this game. So if you would be so nice and tell me some good tactics how to defeat Sheik with Marth and C. Falcon. I need to find out:
~ 1) Stage Selection (What are the good stages for these 2 and what stages I should definitely not pick against Sheik)
~ 2) Moves (What moves are useful against her and what not)

~ Desperate player from Finland

 

[Nihonjin]

1) Sheik can play anywhere, so pick stages you're comfortable playing on
2) They all are, you just need to learn how to space properly

 

[PGH Carroll]

Woah!!! I use marth and falcon!!<3
And I feel your pain with the MU..
Stages I like marth vs shiek: fd and yoshis. Just when fighting shiek with marth remember to grab early and often. Marth grab game is better. And spacing is super important.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

as CFalcon it is important you never approach Sheik. Every move you throw at her can be taken out with a simple ftilt which probably leads to a grab or more ftilts which could quite possibly lead to death.

wait for Sheik to do something and then grab/aerial sheik and then proceed to take a stock.

of course it's not actually this simple but this is the gist of it.

oh yeah and watch videos of course. they can teach you better than words could.

 

[ShadyMilkman]

My advice would be to NOT play CF agaisnt Sheik if your Marth is as good/close to as good as your Falcon.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

darkrain once said something about DD around to 0 death combo if you can't you lose. CC any time sheik hits you other than spaced bair or needles.

understand how to beat ALL of sheik's ledge options to punish sheik even when sheik recovers right.max out gimps again watch for fairs.

watch movement try to take up space and pressure sheik to the edge.

 

[UltimateHaxor123]

lol. don't play captain falcon against sheik...bad idea

contrary to what people say, marth vs. sheik actually isn't that bad. Sure sheik can combo marth, but all u need is a grab. grab -> uptilt -> uptilt -> uair or chain into fair combos. I think the hardest part about playing sheik is getting the kill. Marth is better against sheik at low percentages, but sheik is better than marth at mid-high percents. The easiest way to kill sheik once u put on some percentage is to either
1) knock her far enough off the stage so she's forced to up-b to recover. Once she's off grab the edge so she's forced to go on the stage. Roll on the stage and forward smash. Repeat this process until she's dead. A good example of this can be seen at mlg vegas Ken vs kdj. Link

2) land a lucky tipper :D

 

[X1-12]

watch Fuzzyness play vs Sheik

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

oh some advice stop playing to win play to learn. it's way better in the long run and why I can deal with lasers way better than I used to be able to. learning gives you more than winning. it's funny when someone doesn't laser as good as my brother I feel like I can just walk up to them.

 

[LLDL]

Sheik is a pretty easy match up when you think about it. She can't do anything against you with proper spacing. The only moves she has are nair out of shield and shield grab which are too slow if you pressure her properly. She has zero to death chain grabs and gimps which are what scare people but if you find a way not to get grabbed your win is in the bag.

 

[j00t]

man everyone saying that "Never approach Sheik as Falcon" or "Don't play Falcon vs. Sheik" are a bunch of WIMPS!

Yeah, the matchup is Falcon's hardest one. Just outplay the Sheik, that's pretty much the gist of it. Space better, combo better, approach better, make good reads, react quickly, etc. etc.

and don't get grabbed or tilted, or rather don't get hit

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah as sheik I know if they approach to much they get f***ed up. but if they run away needles. so i'm also confused now.

 

[Z3R0 HEAVEN]

Can anyone tell me grab combos that I can use with BOTH Marth and C. Falcon???

 

[Nihonjin]

Grab to ****.

 

[Black_jo]

Take sheik to Kungle jungle and stages you can easily kill her by the sides with falcon. Just grab the ledge and reset your invincibility, wait for her upB then ledge hop knee, stomp,etc.

Your nair is a good approach but space it well or else you will get grabbed. You can also wait for her to approach with a dash attack. Grab, up trow. Learn to walltech the downsmash. DI out of her tilts. Up air is really good to combo her.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Err, space Nair, Dthrow, techchase with Dair, when u hit Dairs u can do anything, knee, raptor boost, Dair again, grab,

grab that ledge, make them recover on stage, then kneerape them.

 

[Stratocaster]

As much as I DESPISE the sheik matchup, I gotta agree w/ JWT2k6, don't just not play falcon because its one of his hardest matchups (Fox and Falco are arguably worse for him)
Marth vs Sheik and Falcon vs Sheik are both officially considered 40-60

I really hate dsmash but heres how I learned to beat it, when you see/know its coming, use your full shield, if you're in front you'll only be hit once, behind you'll be hit twice if you're close to sheik and once if you're far away. Once you see you've been hit that many times you know you wont be hit again so its safe to leave your shield. Shorthop out of your shield toward her and dair, alternatively you can wavedash oos and grab, but you might get hit, short hop brings you above the hit.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Are there players in Finland?

 

[X1-12]

yes, its likely the only one you would have heard of is neutroni

he's neutral damage on the boads iirc

 

[Blistering Speed]

Applicable to both characters is getting Sheik above you and destroying her. When she's off the edge, edgehog and punish Up B's lag with w/e.

The only Falcon actually good against Sheik is Hax, watch some recent videos of him.

There aren't any good Marth mains anymore, so.... idk 07 M2k?

Either way, your character choice leaves a big gaping hole were you to ever compete. Sheik has a very significant advantage on both.

 

[Teba]

You can't defeat Sheik! Sheik is the god of all SSBM characters.

 

[Z3R0 HEAVEN]

I think you mean goddess but whatever :D

 

[Siglemic]

idk just like camp or something

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

how do you camp sheik?PF is banned.

 

[BEES]

....you could always learn puff

*kills Melee with one post*

 

[Stratocaster]

There aren't any good Marth mains anymore, so.... idk 07 M2k?

I.B. is one of the best marth mains around right now

 

[j00t]

Sheik has a 70-30 advantage vs. Falcon
Sheik has a 60-40 advantage vs. Marth

I'd say Falcon has a 40-60 matchup vs. both Fox and Falco

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

puff, ice climbers, fox, and falco all do well vesus sheik.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I.B. is one of the best marth mains around right now

He's not got much competition. M2k's a better example still anyway.

 

[Stratocaster]

@JWT2k6 This is the reason they make a Match-up Chart

Sheik vs Falcon 60-40
Sheik vs Marth 60-40
Fox&Falco vs Falcon 65-35

just fyi hax and i talked about fox/falco matchups

we both think falco is harder

i'd still say 65/35 for both but this is one of those matchups where momentum plays a huge part and sometimes it looks like 50/50 and sometimes it looks like 70/30

on average i'd say 65/35 though.

also i'm a pretty strong believer in the idea that since so many people who have no idea what they're talking about say that sheik>>falcon, falcon players believe this and don't try to learn the match

sheik players know sheik v falcon bc it's the same as sheik v fox and falco except easier

falcon players don't know **** about sheik but when they do it's a clear but beatable advantage for sheik

60/40 take it from me not f-zero

fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

sheik: -1 or -2 to the average falcon, +1 or +2 to me. this matchup is actually sooo easy now but i can understand why people would fuss over it. i hated it for a good while too. to clarify: her dthrow bullsh*t does not work all you have to do is roll your cstick and not tech and you'll break out... think of it in the sense that both chars have no approach but falcon is faster and has a better DD. and if the falcon stays under 100% edgeguarding her is cake. i beat amsah in pound pools and i jv3 stocked plank this weekend as proof.

Now stop making numbers up!

EDIT: @Blistering Speed, I.B. is just a more current and secondary example, to pick only one, '07 M2K is the best, just listing an alternative is all

 

[Jonas]

(With Marth): CC when she tries to attack you. Uthrow a lot and follow up with Utilt/Uair (depending on whether she jumps or not). Uair combos are really fun ^_^
Make sure you don't get her to ridiculous percentags, because you need to be able to combo her off the stage/into a kill move.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I.B. is one of the best marth mains around right now

I.B will be the first to say Marth Sheik is a terrible matchup.

Anyway, OP, in general your goal is to juggle Sheik or get her above you if you have an Uair that's fast and cleanly goes through her Bair and Nair (Marth, Falcon, Sheik, Peach kind of, ICs, Ganon, Puff are good examples) and then eventually hit her offstage because she doesn't have good aerial mobility. The other thing to remember is that Sheik's recovery is very easy to edgeguard, so prioritize forcing her Up+B rather than just doing lots of damage. If you can do 40% but force a poof, it's generally better to do that than get greedy and possibly let her recover with DJ + airdodge or whatever.

Crouch cancel is pretty good against her ground game because it will stifle her tilt combos and force her to come close and grab if she wants to put any sort of damage on you from the ground, which means she's using a lower-range, laggier move, which means you can probably get some punishes. SHing over her grabs and dash attacks can be pretty good...

 

[ShadyMilkman]

/thread, imo

 

[Strong Badam]

It's impossible.
Give up now.

 

[Jimbo Slice]

1. Pick sheik
2. Grab
3. repeat step 2 as needed.

 

[Kason Birdman]

main falco *****


no but seriously sheik is a ***** for falcon.
dthrow to **** is the MU

 

[Z3R0 HEAVEN]

Okay... I have reveived lots of comments and I'm happy with that. And for your information I' not gonna give up Falcon on this. It's hard but not impossible IMO. But let's see what we have gone through:
~ Sheik can play against me in almost every stage so the stage should be ones that I feel comfortable with which are Yoshi's and PokeStadium. :D
~ The most important things to beat Sheik is spacing and comboing her after grabbing (And I got one comment to land lucky tippers with Marth. Very good advice :D)
~ Crouch cancel and then **** her O_o

So lots of help has been given to me and I'm happy but it doesn't mean it can't continue so fight on and more comments!! :D

 

[ETWIST51294]

I could break down this mu pretty easily but I really don't feel like it. I might do it later.

 

[ShadyMilkman]

while it's true that CF can treat Sheik very badly after she's off teh stage, she can be just as mean to him in the same situation. So I feel that point is kinda meh....

 

[NeutralDamage]

Lol. Z3RO HEAVEN = Teba, a Finnish Sheik mainer(or atleast used to be) xD. Not 100% sure, but his email address name is the same as Teba's real name so.... So if you really wanna help him, tell him how to play with Sheik instead.