How to deal with X move thread. (Pit's Arrows)

[NickRiddle]

Someone make a How to deal with/punish
like this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255258
I dont like managing threads just like pushing ideas for activity also someone should quote this in the OP =p

edit - .. Double post

Man, I really need to start thinking of threads like this on my own. XD



TORNADO
Moves that beat Tornado: D-smash, grab, down-b.
Moves that SOMETIMES beat Tornado: Bair, uair, dair, fair, Side-B. (It seems basically anything can.)

General tactics:

From what I know many metaknights will move their nado away if they have time and they forsee the D-smash and Down B kick
other then what has been mentioned running helps =X , I have yet to grab a meta out of nado

For positioning
If you right above the nado try to upair and the bottom hit box is probly gonna hit
If your to the left or right of nado I normaly use Down B to make their nado retreat
On the ground I tend to run if I have time / Sheild (almost always sheild up more of a habbit on my part)

edit - might add later gotta go for now

Hit tip, you can actually utilt during nado out of shield sometimes.

Just crawl under it if they go high and punish, if they go low punish the landing lag /nadosoez

Falco's Lasers

General tactics:

watch a falcos habits.

watch when he phantasms away, or if he does it at all. if he does you can bait it quite easily most of the time, if he doesn't theres often another option. (i.e. uair his aerial, usmash if he shdls again etc)

You have to basicly think you are ganon in this match up and mind game him


Crawl Backwards none of his lazors will hit your just in a bad position (I normaly Down B more or less a mind game)
Watch his patterns when he jumps make small progression
Slowly power sheild and take small steps dont be greedy

Plank Falco.

I always keep at least one piece in the fight against falco. This pressures him and you can bait his down B, and punish the cooldown with side B.

So after baiting falco's down B....

You can punish with side B(he is now in a bad position)

While still holding the piece throw it at him while he's in the air(Now he's even closer to the edge)

You can get in a dash attack and now you can bait his recovery.

Snake's Grenades/Tilts

General Tactics:

Okay, that was quick and easy.
This time, it's two different things.
SNake's Nades, and his tilts.

I want each of these to have a separate discussion, but it would feel stupid to have two different discussions of Snake. Post how you think we should deal with each of these moves!

Nades: Dodge them, and remember where they are. If the Snake doesn't force-drop them out of your hand, throw them back with an Air-Dodge-Cancelled-Item-Throw.

Tilts: Snake's d-tilt outranges every melee move we have, and his u-tilt comes close. All of them can be punished OOS with a d-tilt , a u-tilt or a DA depending on how far away you are from him. You can also grab his f-tilt and his u-tilt if they hit your sheild.

Nades: Counting the timer, or atleast getting a good feel for it, is essential. Know when to shield the nades actual physical damage and when to take it and punish Snake's throw animation. Learn to space around them if Snake is trying to nade counter in the air, it's not that difficult with our precise hitboxes. I'm not sure if this would be useful at all, but you can use down b footstool off a nade as a mixup approach

Tilts: Our utilt clanks with Snakes ftilt and then beats it (1 frame advantage) if you are both mashing them. Dsmash's disjoint can keep us safely out of range even if snake technically has more range on his f/dtilt, since his aren't as disjointed. Rising bairs work really well against Snake, and if you retreat them Snake cannot punish. It's generally a good strat against Snakes who like to walk and PS our midrange moves then punish with ftilt.

In general i feel like Snake is a fight where you absolutely cannot autopilot. You need to be focused at all times or you will get butt****ed. We can work around both the tilts and the nades but it takes precise spacing and quick thinking, moreso than most matchups

Nanners

Out of a dash you can also stop yourself by pressing down, and then pressing A to pick up the banana. Not the fastest thing, but it works.
Or just run over to it, and air-dodge cancelled-item-throw to throw it at him.

Review the instant toss or some basic item stuff also Im to lazy to post stuff like that atm

Pick them up and throw them at him

SH AD.
Z Catch Oos.
Try mixing that kinda things up with Retreating Side B's.

I learned diddy too, really helpt my item game.

Wario's Waft

~1:00 Waft that can still kill you at low %s
~1:57 Waft that is fully charged (his head is the most powerful part)

They normally are predictable and a lot of the time after they have the 1:57~ mark they stay in that state and try and make you forget and fart later in the match (how can you forget a glowing wario)
When recovering watch out for his off stage game
I have see his nairs combo into fart but if you are at a high % you should have enough push back that it wouldn't matter

I definitely think wario is zss' favor actually but whatever.

There's not much here to figure out. Wario will look for patterns and punish you for them with early kills. If you aren't predictable that shouldn't happen.

T-jolts.

You can use the hitlag on grounded TJ to extend the hit box of uair and hir pikachu on rise

So, we hit Pikachu with you? :3

I prefer fair when doing this. First hit smacks the jolt, second hit smash the rat.
At least when you cannot follow the uair up.

Uair, nair, PS. Really, this move is a lot less threatening than it looks like. It only does 8% if it hits you, but why would it ever hit you?

When it's airborne, I'm pretty sure all of our aerials will not only beat it, but there will still be some animation after the move to spare. If spaced correctly (or rather, if the Pika misspaces a Jolt not keeping this fact in mind), you should be able to up-air both the jolt and Pika at the same time. If the Jolt is on the ground, powershielding is ideal.

MK's Glide Attack

Fair the **** out of it.


IC's grab. (Safe moves)

Bair, and wait for them to mess up.
And grab. Grab is good.

MK planking

Don't let him get the lead.

Pit's planking

D-smash/Dair his uair, and predict the arrow and punish.

Ness's/Lucas's PK Thunder

Hitting both of them cancels them out.

Aura Sphere

-I void spot dodging aura sphere as you normally get hit by it
-close range is a different story I tend to space upward or take my chances with getting hit and spot dodge without being to predictable
-once rollcario is about 110% aura just sheild all together and use an extra jump / down B to avoid getting hit as it has ridiculous knock back (this includes in the air)
-I never see lucario same small aura sphere balls any more but if they do just slowly approach and PS but watch out for ftilt that happens once your close enough

Not sure what aura % / stock level will neutralize aura sphere as my forward b as neutralized it once and possibly ( cant remember for sure ) over powered it

Just jump over the aura sphere.

You can bair through fully charged AS when Lucario is at least at 70%. Otherwise, it's not all that fast. You can PS it, jump over it, whatever you feel like doing to avoid it.

Wait you can bair an AS? LOL

Yeah AS is not hard to powershield, it's pretty useless in a neutral setting. I play Stauffy a fair bit and the main times he uses it to good effect is either when im landing without jumps, in which case I have to eat it or down b if he times it right, and then he tries to punish the down b, or when im recovering offstage he'll use it to force an air dodge or punish a side b tether and proceed to edge guard

Sheik's Needles and f-tilt.

Sheik's f-tilt is dead easy to avoid, if you get caught I SDI upwards and bounce out after the second/first hit, try mix up the bounce direction otherwise it'll be baited.

If you're on the ground shielding, u-tilt or f-tilt is fast enough. Only f-tilt at medium percentages, or angle it downwards. And only u-tilt if you certain they'll try f-tilt again for pressure. U-tilt is the better imo.

Needles are frustrating, you just gotta bait them as volc. said. If you do get hit, anticipate a DACUS as most sheik players would do since it's hard to punish. Oh and about DACUS, never shorthop approach a sheik because they'll just DACUS sweetspot your sorry ***.

EDIT: You can also u-air out of it sometimes.

Pit's Arrows



DISCUSS!

Also, <3 sole.

 

[Zero]

If there's enough space to pivot grab and if they don't mash B to rise above your range then grab is a good option.

Personally, I prefer shielding angled up and utilting afterwards. If they decide to retreat, grab often works.

Aerials are too risky and precise to work methinks.

Pivot dsmash is great risk with great reward. Haven't actualy pulled it off yet, I think you need a good distance to try it, which the MK player just won't give you.

 

[xxpatgxx]

I've beaten tornado, with the back of uair sometimes, after DI-ing up and out of it.

Full neutral Bs clank with it and stop it, forcing him to do it again.

UpB, and upsmash can beat it too.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you get caught in nado mash cstick up and then dair or if you're at the right angle, flub uair.

Down-b kick obviously beats it handily.

 

[Rybaia]

There was a thread on SWF with the list of moves that can beat Tornado.
If I remember correctly Nair can also beat the tornado without necessary be on top of it.

I'm sorry but I can't find the thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That thread was false, I tested (with the help of nef) to see which moves can beat nado. Our results were:

down-b kick
second hit fair
dair (sometimes?)
flub uair
grab
fully charged paralyzer
fsmash






















jk about fsmash

 

[Nefarious B]

How about crouching as a way to beat nado. I've been thinking about this and I honestly think it could be a huge addition to our MK matchup, as nado spam is difficult for us to deal with and puts us in a horrible position if we choose to run from it or get shield poked.

Aerial nado is difficult because it avoids dsmash and grab, and since we're tall MK can just hit high on our shield, and retreat, and if done correctly should not be punished. Grounded nado is much easier to deal with. So by crouching we are low enough to force MK into the zone where our grounded anti-nado moves are actually effective.

 

[solecalibur]

From what I know many metaknights will move their nado away if they have time and they forsee the D-smash and Down B kick
other then what has been mentioned running helps =X , I have yet to grab a meta out of nado

For positioning
If you right above the nado try to upair and the bottom hit box is probly gonna hit
If your to the left or right of nado I normaly use Down B to make their nado retreat
On the ground I tend to run if I have time / Sheild (almost always sheild up more of a habbit on my part)

edit - might add later gotta go for now

 

[Adapt]

Moves that I have beat tornado with consistantly:
Side-B (tip only), Dair, Grab, D-smash

Moves that I have beat tornado with occasionally:
Paralyzer(charged), f-smash, nair, bair

These occasional moves seem to have more luck if the MK is not repeatedly tapping B

Down-B: I use this to footstool the tornado normally followed by a dair or a punishment attempt.

 

[noradseven]

Also if the MK is retarted/at the right angle d-smash beats it clean, n-air does beat it only the backwards version and at a highly specific angle and sometimes stupid changing hitbox. Don't do it.

Doesn't up B beat nado, I was p. sure u-smash didn't work, but I thought up B did.


**** that beats it that you would actually like to use alot...sometimes I use b-air and d-smash, for risk/reward or well im going to get hit anyways.

Down B,second hit f-air, grab, otherwise just evade and block we are quick.




How to beat non grab moves Shield *possibly powershield, then followup of choice u-tilt/d-tilt, whelp.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hit tip, you can actually utilt during nado out of shield sometimes.

 

[Nefarious B]

Just crawl under it if they go high and punish, if they go low punish the landing lag /nadosoez

 

[NickRiddle]

Moving on to Falco's lasers.

The obvious solution is to crawl under them, jump over them, or PS while walking. Anything you guys specifically do?

 

[XtricksterX]

yes thats the basic thing to do is to crawl, jump or ps while walking, better idea than running at falco like a fool

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

Yeahhh basically just crawl, jump, or ps.
nothing else you can really do

...but running at falco like a food is hilariously fun... :D

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

watch a falcos habits.

watch when he phantasms away, or if he does it at all. if he does you can bait it quite easily most of the time, if he doesn't theres often another option. (i.e. uair his aerial, usmash if he shdls again etc)

 

[Denzi]

Falco's lasers are un-dealwith-able. Sorry.

 

[HailCrest]

as a lucas main, i can usmash falco's phantasm. it'll hit it clean through and cancel the usmash too.

i like to jump over the lasers then send a fair their way, maybe a wavebounce sideB if i'm getting predictable

 

[Denzi]

as a lucas main, i can usmash falco's phantasm. it'll hit it clean through and cancel the usmash too.

i like to jump over the lasers then send a fair their way, maybe a wavebounce sideB if i'm getting predictable

Dude...

You're on the Zamus Boards...

 

[HailCrest]

Dude...

You're on the Zamus Boards...

i know. that second part -was- referring to zamus

fair is disjointed. wavebounce plasma whip hits opponents who are too close to hit normally.

besides, no falco would ever laser camp lucas, only use them sparingly at midrange

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

Falco's just have to be smarter vs Lucas. But anyway, Fair is not a good option to deal with lasers. Falco has plenty of time to see the Fair approach and shield, but that isn't even necessary because lasers go right through it.

Also, BEST way to deal with lasers:
Run off the stage > Down on C-Stick
Or for you technical people, hold down and press A.

 

[HailCrest]

Falco's just have to be smarter vs Lucas. But anyway, Fair is not a good option to deal with lasers. Falco has plenty of time to see the Fair approach and shield, but that isn't even necessary because lasers go right through it.

Also, BEST way to deal with lasers:
Run off the stage > Down on C-Stick
Or for you technical people, hold down and press A.

and after that, tell the falco "I was using a super-advanced tactic. I was hoping you would follow me."

 

[solecalibur]

You have to basicly think you are ganon in this match up and mind game him


Crawl Backwards none of his lazors will hit your just in a bad position (I normaly Down B more or less a mind game)
Watch his patterns when he jumps make small progression
Slowly power sheild and take small steps dont be greedy

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Plank Falco.

 

[Y.b.M.]

I don't really think that Falco's Lasers are that much of a problem. I actually prefer to let the Lasers hit me until like 20% or so. That way I can avoid being chain grabbed spiked so easily from 0 to like 45. Other than that Just simply duck crawling the lasers are easy... and time there side B and it's an easy punish...

 

[noradseven]

Xonar's is what I do, soleCalibers is good too.

Too bad with xonars I have had falcos just sit there firing lasers then call DQ on me for camping............

They go I couldn't approach you without getting hit. Im like I couldn't either and they go thats how falco plays .

i like to jump over the lasers then send a fair their way, maybe a wavebounce sideB if i'm getting predictable

This doesn't work at all, there are so many problems with these suggestions is hard to start.

 

[Nefarious B]

Air camp with a suitpiece in your hand. On a stage like BF just abuse our faster aerial momentum to play keep away and use the suitpiece as your dair. I'd like to see someone actually try this haha, it's total theory craft

 

[xxpatgxx]

I always keep at least one piece in the fight against falco. This pressures him and you can bait his down B, and punish the cooldown with side B.

So after baiting falco's down B....

You can punish with side B(he is now in a bad position)

While still holding the piece throw it at him while he's in the air(Now he's even closer to the edge)

You can get in a dash attack and now you can bait his recovery.

 

[NickRiddle]

Okay, that was quick and easy.
This time, it's two different things.
SNake's Nades, and his tilts.

I want each of these to have a separate discussion, but it would feel stupid to have two different discussions of Snake. Post how you think we should deal with each of these moves!

Nades: Dodge them, and remember where they are. If the Snake doesn't force-drop them out of your hand, throw them back with an Air-Dodge-Cancelled-Item-Throw.

Tilts: Snake's d-tilt outranges every melee move we have, and his u-tilt comes close. All of them can be punished OOS with a d-tilt , a u-tilt or a DA depending on how far away you are from him. You can also grab his f-tilt and his u-tilt if they hit your sheild.

 

[Nefarious B]

Nades: Counting the timer, or atleast getting a good feel for it, is essential. Know when to shield the nades actual physical damage and when to take it and punish Snake's throw animation. Learn to space around them if Snake is trying to nade counter in the air, it's not that difficult with our precise hitboxes. I'm not sure if this would be useful at all, but you can use down b footstool off a nade as a mixup approach

Tilts: Our utilt clanks with Snakes ftilt and then beats it (1 frame advantage) if you are both mashing them. Dsmash's disjoint can keep us safely out of range even if snake technically has more range on his f/dtilt, since his aren't as disjointed. Rising bairs work really well against Snake, and if you retreat them Snake cannot punish. It's generally a good strat against Snakes who like to walk and PS our midrange moves then punish with ftilt.

In general i feel like Snake is a fight where you absolutely cannot autopilot. You need to be focused at all times or you will get butt****ed. We can work around both the tilts and the nades but it takes precise spacing and quick thinking, moreso than most matchups

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Nades: depends heavily on how the opposing Snake is using them. If they're playing campy behind them, expecting me to approach despite having a percent/stock lead, I usually try stuffing them with uncharged plasma. On the off-chance they decide not to throw the nade, and opt for a Mortar Slide, in hopes that he caught you off guard, uncharged Plasma will beat that as well.

Tilts: Nick covered everything I was going to mention, namely our counter-dtilt option, and the Ftilt2/Utilt being shield-grabbable thing.

 

[solecalibur]

Anyone know the timing of snakes nades when they go off? I have it down by just watching and normaly figuring out when they blow, but I dont know the exact time

 

[NickRiddle]

Anyone know the timing of snakes nades when they go off? I have it down by just watching and normaly figuring out when they blow, but I dont know the exact time

I think it's 3 seconds.
YOu can actually zoom in to the nades if you have unrestricted camera, and they say it.

 

[Xyless]

Tilts were covered perfectly by Nick/Nefarious. I utilt Snakes more than most characters because it's relatively safe vs ftilt (which most Snakes abuse). However, I always forget to shieldgrab with ftilt and utilt, so I'll have to do that more.

With nades, I try to catch Snake with a nade in hand (rare) and side B him and detonate the nade in his hand. I also try to shoot the nade when he throws it with a quick paralyzer, which sometimes works (though it isn't as useful in normal Brawl as it is in Brawl-). Otherwise, the best thing to do is just avoid them. Most Snakes know how to prevent you from using their nades against them, so trying to plan catching and throwing back the nades is extremely ineffective

EDIT: A few well-known things that still should be pointed out: Nades have a 3 second timer, Snake can drop an item he picks up (like a vegetable, banana, or, in our situation, armor piece) to pull a nade instantly, and the nades do NOT stale (always does 12-13 damage).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The timer is actually 3.5 seconds.

 

[solecalibur]

The Gernade says something delay 3.0 as in seconds Im pretty sure its 3 seconds not 100% sure

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Iunno i think that in tourney i actually watch the fuses, lol!

 

[TheRockSays]

Snake's Grenades: Usually when Snake players are campy with grenade most of them should be bad up at close combat so i like to be close enough to Side b or to grab them. I'm just saying if they grenade camp just get close to them and punish.


Snake's Tilts: The front tilt Is a very annoying does to much damage and goes through side b if close enough because of its range. So i try to DTilt as much as possible to keep them in the air so they cant hit me with any tilt. What can i say the up tilt is death after 7X% if it still fresh and has not been used. After you reach 7X% you have to try to keep your distance. D-tilt its hardly use so i wont go in to it.

 

[BioDG]

I have no tips as of now but great suggestions for Snake so far! :D

 

[NickRiddle]

Snake's Grenades: Usually when Snake players are campy with grenade most of them should be bad up at close combat so i like to be close enough to Side b or to grab them. I'm just saying if they grenade camp just get close to them and punish.


Snake's Tilts: The front tilt Is a very annoying does to much damage and goes through side b if close enough because of its range. So i try to DTilt as much as possible to keep them in the air so they cant hit me with any tilt. What can i say the up tilt is death after 7X% if it still fresh and has not been used. After you reach 7X% you have to try to keep your distance. D-tilt its hardly use so i wont go in to it.

Snake's u-tilt kills on normal stages if the hit sends you to ~105.
70 means you are terrible at DI.
Sorry.