How come so many people are taking a dump of FE lately?

[Folt]

Jeez. I mean, I'd like a new Zelda character, but not about to blame other series for supposedly stealing roster spots.

Neither do I, because I'm done with that line of thinking. It encourages resentment and bile and takes away focus from actual good points that can be argued.

 

[Makai Wars]

Corrin is "openly despised" (she's not, she's just highly controversial) because of how poorly written a lot of the fanbase thinks she is.

You're talking about Corrin in the FE fanbase and I'm talking about Corrin in the Smash fanbase.

Look, we get it. You're dead set on your opinion here. But you don't need to twist things to suit this narrative you've built up, as it's not arguing in good faith.

Explain further, I feel I've laid my argument out pretty clearly on why people are "taking a dump on FE lately" as the OP stated. To recap I'll bullet my arguments.

• by analyzing sales numbers, FE has failed to capture a mainstream audience, capping out at 1.9M sales for their highest selling game on the 3DS while newer IPs have gone beyond that on hardware with a much smaller install base (i.e Splatoon 1 selling nearly 6M on the Wii U)
• FE's mobile venture, while profitable, still has the least downloads of all other Nintendo mobile games, further reinforcing the idea that FE is a niche franchise
• Corrin's inclusion to Smash has been met with a lot of backlash and people have settled that they are a "controversial character" due to getting in to promote Fire Emblem Fates
• the general Smash fanbases' opinion is that there's too much FE in the roster, Echo or otherwise, and other franchises should get some of that spotlight

All of these claims can be backed up with hard facts by looking at sales data, interviews with Sakurai, and various fan polls from around the internet. So again, please tell me what narrative I'm trying to twist, if you have an issue with my tone, that's one thing, but in this entire debate no one has actually tried arguing against the claims I'm making and instead choose to attack my pfp of all things.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Fire Emblem is indeed a niche franchise, it's why I see it struggling to meet ends as another successful Nintendo one after Awakening. Hell, I've noticed the FE musou Fire Emblem Warriors doesn't get as much attention as the more acclaimed Hyrule Warriors despite having much more fanservice which helped revive the series.

I'd agree Corrin as a terrible character, but I would rant about Fates. You're right though, Corrin in Smash doesn't want me to want to give the stink eye to the writers. I'd would also argue Chrom being in Smash due to him not really standing out compared to other representatives but they pulled it off. I'm more interested in Sakurai's philosophy in implementing FE fighters and how they would stand out than general representation.

 

[Folt]

You're talking about Corrin in the FE fanbase and I'm talking about Corrin in the Smash fanbase.

Explain further, I feel I've laid my argument out pretty clearly on why people are "taking a dump on FE lately" as the OP stated. To recap I'll bullet my arguments.

• by analyzing sales numbers, FE has failed to capture a mainstream audience, capping out at 1.9M sales for their highest selling game on the 3DS while newer IPs have gone beyond that on hardware with a much smaller install base (i.e Splatoon 1 selling nearly 6M on the Wii U)
• FE's mobile venture, while profitable, still has the least downloads of all other Nintendo mobile games, further reinforcing the idea that FE is a niche franchise
• Corrin's inclusion to Smash has been met with a lot of backlash and people have settled that they are a "controversial character" due to getting in to promote Fire Emblem Fates
• the general Smash fanbases' opinion is that there's too much FE in the roster, Echo or otherwise, and other franchises should get some of that spotlight

All of these claims can be backed up with hard facts by looking at sales data, interviews with Sakurai, and various fan polls from around the internet. So again, please tell me what narrative I'm trying to twist, if you have an issue with my tone, that's one thing, but in this entire debate no one has actually tried arguing against the claims I'm making and instead choose to attack my pfp of all things.

I don't think you've realized what kind of ammo you're giving us here.

Particularly in that Fire Emblem sales and reception spiked with Awakening and sales since then has since been up there with series like Donkey Kong, Kirby and Yoshi, while series such as Metroid and Star Fox have fallen from their heydays.

Meanwhile, the article has Sakurai say that while he did think that they might be adding too many Fire Emblem characters, the uniqueness of Corrin dispelled his worries, which suggests to me that this has more to do with how to make a new FE character stand out from the other FE characters than about Fire Emblem actually oversaturating Smash with playable characters.

Also, I would never put much stock in fan-made polls: Oftentimes, these polls are made in places that favor the smaller, more hardcore fans and Smash is at it's best when it's not catering exclusively to the hardcore fans.

Fire Emblem is indeed a niche franchise, it's why I see it struggling to meet ends as another successful Nintendo one after Awakening. Hell, I've noticed the FE musou Fire Emblem Warriors doesn't get as much attention as the more acclaimed Hyrule Warriors despite having much more fanservice which helped revive the series.

I'd agree Corrin as a terrible character, but I would rant about Fates. You're right though, Corrin in Smash doesn't want me to want to give the stink eye to the writers. I'd would also argue Chrom being in Smash due to him not really standing out compared to other representatives but they pulled it off. I'm more interested in Sakurai's philosophy in implementing FE fighters and how they would stand out than general representation.

That has more to do with the nature of a Warriors game (and also butthurt "fans" wanting the game to flop in order to serve as an example for Nintendo/IntSys leaving their Ikes and Roys out of the game): In actuality, Fire Emblem Warriors has performed as well as Hyrule Warriors did in the same timeframe, shipping 1 million copies in six months, replicating the feat of Hyrule Warriors before it.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I don't actually get much Internet slang at all; most of that **** flies over my head.


The easiest solution for that? Add Breidablik as an item to act as the Fire Emblem equivalent of the Pokéball and Assist Trophy. Then all the FE C-lister can show off and make people question who they are, any new protagonist can get a shot at a place in the roster, and every weapon and class can get a representation in Smash.

However, the biggest reason Fire Emblem is getting so many playables compared to other series is that other series quite frankly do not have many characters who need to be repped in Smash in a playable manner because one character (or in some cases: two characters) rep everything the series is so thoroughly or in other cases rep it better through stages than their characters. Fire Emblem however is much like Mario and Pokémon: It continuously adds characters people want to see playable in Smash or has something interesting to give as a playable character in Smash and continuously does that with pretty much every game compared to very many other franchises.

I quick Jargon:
TL;DR: Too Long, DIdn't read
IMO: In My Opinion
TBH: To be honest

 

[TheBean]

Let's settle this with FACTS, shall we?

Or maybe it is the people who are angry at Fire Emblem having so much representation compared to other franchises so much that threads like this ends up being made because they literally cannot accept that the franchise is bigger than the ones they're playing ball for, hm?

And while outsold is certainly true, you probably should have just stuck to Splatoon because Arms sold about 2 million compared to 1.9 million with Awakening and 1.6 million with Fates so that's not actually a big difference compared to 4.93 million. We should also make note of Heroes and the money it generates with that as well (being Nintendo's most lucrative mobile game for now), and Fire Emblem Warriors which shipped as much as Hyrule Warriors did in six months (read: did extremely well for a Warriors game).

FE is not, and most likelly will never be as popular as the franchises you are implying. Zelda, Mario, Kirbt, Pokemon, and even DK are all close to or better than FE (In terms of sales/fanbase size).
Heroes does have 5 mllion sales but it got **** reviews. Out of the dozen or so people that I know who still play the game, they all say it's for one reason: waifus. Specifically, big-breasted females with trumped-up bodily proportions in sexually provocative outfits.

Would you say Robin and Corrin don't bring something new to Smash? Yes, the 3 clones are kinda stupid, but that's mainly due to how Smash Ultimate is working, and not because Sakurai thinks they deserve more reps. It may have been explained before, but FE has a different cast every game with a few exceptions, and that means we should normally have changing reps every Smash game, but Everyone is Here, so all the FE reps come back, plus Chrom, who was highly requested by Japanese fans.



Wow. You don't actually know how the game works, so you're just insulting the fans. Whatever.



5 MILLION people playing, FE:H isn't niche. Corrin is despised because he's a terrible character from what is considered one of the worst games in the series story-wise. Fire Emblem isn't a huge series, but Splatoon is the hot new thing in Nintendo. OF COURSE it would outsell most things, hell, it outsold Kirby: Star Allies. Yes, 7 reps is too much for the series, but that's just how it turned out because "Everyone is Here". FE does deserve 4 reps, and we have 4 unique characters: ultcorrin:. The rest are echoes or semiclones, and I'm OK with that. That's how FE works.

Robin and Corrin don't bring any new playstyles to Smash. They're both about what the rest are: Midrange and spacing, juggling with aerials, and spamming Side + B.
And as I said before, it's five million DOWNLOADS Heroes has. The reviews were bad and people are beginning to stop playing it, just like *ahem* Fortnite.

I don't think you've realized what kind of ammo you're giving us here.


Particularly in that Fire Emblem sales and reception spiked with Awakening and sales since then has since been up there with series like Donkey Kong, Kirby and Yoshi, while series such as Metroid and Star Fox have fallen from their heydays.

Meanwhile, the article has Sakurai say that while he did think that they might be adding too many Fire Emblem characters, the uniqueness of Corrin dispelled his worries, which suggests to me that this has more to do with how to make a new FE character stand out from the other FE characters than about Fire Emblem actually oversaturating Smash with playable characters.

Also, I would never put much stock in fan-made polls: Oftentimes, these polls are made in places that favor the smaller, more hardcore fans and Smash is at it's best when it's not catering exclusively to the hardcore fans.



That has more to do with the nature of a Warriors game (and also butthurt "fans" wanting the game to flop in order to serve as an example for Nintendo/IntSys leaving their Ikes and Roys out of the game): In actuality, Fire Emblem Warriors has performed as well as Hyrule Warriors did in the same timeframe, shipping 1 million copies in six months, replicating the feat of Hyrule Warriors before it.

That's a pretty bad comparison. FE does outsell Yoshi well. It is "up there" with DK. But Kirby annihilates FE in terms of sales and popularity. The reason it doesn''t have more reps than FE, however, is because Sakurai is too afraid that people will call "Sakurai bias" if he adds another Kirby rep.

While it's true that Sakurai's initial decision about Corrin was that she was unique, he did say later that looking back it was a bad idea. He was pressured to add more FE characters by Intelligent and Nintendo. Corrin, again, still had the aesthetic of a sword-wielding anime style fighter, and she sill had the same Marth-style gameplay, complete with a tipper. None of them really stand out.

I don't think they pay attention to fan-made polls. It seems like they only payed attention to their official polls.

 

[aarchak]

Robin and Corrin don't bring any new playstyles to Smash. They're both about what the rest are: Midrange and spacing, juggling with aerials, and spamming Side + B.

That doesn't work at all. Everyone's Side-Bs work differently, and are used for different things. If we follow your logic, every character plays the same because of the mechanics of the game. Hell, Samus, Diddy, Sonic, Olimar, Dedede, Lucas, and Wario are the same because they all use Side-B a lot in their neutral. It's just asinine. They have VERY different kits and you'll never see a Robin play like a Marth. Corrin too, though I don't like him for personal reasons. Are there too many FE characters? Yes. However, 3 of them are clones, and they aren't stealing spots from others. Get over it.

 

[Folt]

Let's settle this with FACTS, shall we?


FE is not, and most likelly will never be as popular as the franchises you are implying. Zelda, Mario, Kirbt, Pokemon, and even DK are all close to or better than FE (In terms of sales/fanbase size).
Heroes does have 5 mllion sales but it got **** reviews. Out of the dozen or so people that I know who still play the game, they all say it's for one reason: waifus. Specifically, big-breasted females with trumped-up bodily proportions in sexually provocative outfits.

As if sexually provocative outfits is a bad thing.

But I'm afraid that trying to gauge it all down to that undersells the extremely addictive strategy RPG part of the game which is more likely the actual reason people stick with it.

Robin and Corrin don't bring any new playstyles to Smash. They're both about what the rest are: Midrange and spacing, juggling with aerials, and spamming Side + B.
And as I said before, it's five million DOWNLOADS Heroes has. The reviews were bad and people are beginning to stop playing it, just like *ahem* Fortnite.

That's a very liberal take on Robin and Corrin's abilities at best, and horribly off-base at that.

Reviews were mostly positive to mixed, with users liking the game more than the critics did.

That's a pretty bad comparison. FE does outsell Yoshi well. It is "up there" with DK. But Kirby annihilates FE in terms of sales and popularity. The reason it doesn''t have more reps than FE, however, is because Sakurai is too afraid that people will call "Sakurai bias" if he adds another Kirby rep.

Well, comparing the 3DS Kirby games:

Kirby: Triple Deluxe - 1.76 million sales
Kirby: Planet Robobot - 1.3 million sales

vs. the 3DS Fire Emblem games:

Fire Emblem Awakening - 1.9 million sales
Fire Emblem Fates - 1.6 million sales

I'd definitely say it's on par with Kirby.

While it's true that Sakurai's initial decision about Corrin was that she was unique, he did say later that looking back it was a bad idea. He was pressured to add more FE characters by Intelligent and Nintendo. Corrin, again, still had the aesthetic of a sword-wielding anime style fighter, and she sill had the same Marth-style gameplay, complete with a tipper. None of them really stand out.

Also, source that statement.

I don't think they pay attention to fan-made polls. It seems like they only payed attention to their official polls.

As they should. Fan-made polls tend to have a larger margin of error in what the majority actually wants, in particular because they're often done on forums with relatively compact communities... not exactly a hivemind, but close.[/QUOTE]

 

[Opossum]

It's so easy to see which posters are just biased against the series when they claim Marth and Robin play the same, or that Heroes got "**** reviews."
give me Caeda over Waddle Dee as a spear user any day, please

 

[Luxent]

I think the Mario/Pokemon series are fine with the amount of representatives they have based on their sales. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda are Nintendo's best-selling franchises, so it only makes sense for them to have the most rep.

Not too sure of Fire Emblem's sales, but IDK if the game's history is long enough to support the amount of characters it has.

 

[Opossum]

I think the Mario/Pokemon series are fine with the amount of representatives they have based on their sales. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda are Nintendo's best-selling franchises, so it only makes sense for them to have the most rep.

Not too sure of Fire Emblem's sales, but IDK if the game's history is long enough to support the amount of characters it has.

Not including spin-offs, there has been fifteen games in the franchise since 1990, plus up to four more if spin-offs are included, plus the upcoming Three Houses. The series definitely has a lot of history.

 

[31fps]

That doesn't work at all. Everyone's Side-Bs work differently, and are used for different things. If we follow your logic, every character plays the same because of the mechanics of the game. Hell, Samus, Diddy, Sonic, Olimar, Dedede, Lucas, and Wario are the same because they all use Side-B a lot in their neutral. It's just asinine. They have VERY different kits and you'll never see a Robin play like a Marth. Corrin too, though I don't like him for personal reasons. Are there too many FE characters? Yes. However, 3 of them are clones, and they aren't stealing spots from others. Get over it.

I think he mean "them" as in "the rest of the FE fighters," and not every swordfighter.

As if sexually provocative outfits is a bad thing.

But I'm afraid that trying to gauge it all down to that undersells the extremely addictive strategy RPG part of the game which is more likely the actual reason people stick with it.

The outfits are an issue because then people want them in Smash more. And it's a cheap way of attracting "horny weebs" into the game. All of the people I knew who played it then stopped because they said the game was boring and they were trying to hook you with girls.

That's a very liberal take on Robin and Corrin's abilities at best, and horribly off-base at that.

Reviews were mostly positive to mixed, with users liking the game more than the critics did.

Robin and Corrin's movesets still have the same aesthetic of sword wielding anime girl. And besides, he's right. It really is just midrange, spacing, and side b. Take it from someone who mains all of the FE cast. They all play pretty much the same.

Well, comparing the 3DS Kirby games:

Kirby: Triple Deluxe - 1.76 million sales
Kirby: Planet Robobot - 1.3 million sales

vs. the 3DS Fire Emblem games:

Fire Emblem Awakening - 1.9 million sales
Fire Emblem Fates - 1.6 million sales

They put zero effort into Kirby: Star Allies and yet it has already outsold every Fire Emblem Game, ever.

So you're pretty wrong. What's more important is that Star Allies is new, and a huge gathering of Kirby characters to play as.

Also, source that statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVCTz1S04QA

This was posted earlier, perhaps on another thread (Idk)

As they should. Fan-made polls tend to have a larger margin of error in what the majority actually wants, in particular because they're often done on forums with relatively compact communities... not exactly a hivemind, but close.

[/QUOTE]

Agreed. If you look at the unofficial Japanese polls they unironically request characters like Sans or Hastune Miku or any character from an anime (because they don't understand anime characters will never happen).

QUOTE="Opossum, post: 22474805, member: 197163"]Not including spin-offs, there has been fifteen games in the franchise since 1990, plus up to four more if spin-offs are included, plus the upcoming Three Houses. The series definitely has a lot of history.[/QUOTE]

Not in the West. After Melee many people were confused about what Fire Emblem was and the game didn't even get a release in the west until two years after Melee was initially released. Hell, Marth never got his English remake until after Brawl was released. And you failed to mention that out of the fifteen games FE has, three of them are remakes. That's 20% of their games. Not to mention 12 games is measly compared to so many others.

give me Caeda over Waddle Dee as a spear user any day, please

Tell that to the millions of people in the United States and Japan alone who voted Bandana Waddle Dee as the fourth most popular fighter request in the world and the even greater amount of people who agree that Fire Emblem has more than enough fighters already.

 

[Opossum]

Robin and Corrin's movesets still have the same aesthetic of sword wielding anime girl. And besides, he's right. It really is just midrange, spacing, and side b. Take it from someone who mains all of the FE cast. They all play pretty much the same.

I see a grand total of zero Fire Emblem characters on your mains listing.

They put zero effort into Kirby: Star Allies and yet it has already outsold every Fire Emblem Game, ever.

It's almost like a notoriously easy platformer is more accessible than a turn based strategy game.

Tell that to the millions of people in the United States and Japan alone who voted Bandana Waddle Dee as the fourth most popular fighter request in the world and the even greater amount of people who agree that Fire Emblem has more than enough fighters already.

That implies that I form my own opinions based on what others want in an E10+ party fighter. That doesn't make me want Waddle Dee. I'd rather have a spear user who actually has a decent length to their spear, which Waddle Dee's spear and arm size don't allow for. I'm not sure what your point was here.

 

[Folt]

I think he mean "them" as in "the rest of the FE fighters," and not every swordfighter.

In which case he's still dead wrong because because everyone's Side B is different besides Roy (the semiclone) and the echo fighters.

The outfits are an issue because then people want them in Smash more. And it's a cheap way of attracting "horny weebs" into the game. All of the people I knew who played it then stopped because they said the game was boring and they were trying to hook you with girls.

And all of the people I know who played Fire Emblem Heroes still play it regularly, working on their own pet projects for clearing tactical missions. Like it or not, the game clearly appeals to people, whether it is for getting through some of the weekly content, making unique teams, executing their formed strategies with some good thinking, and making their favorites stronger.

Robin and Corrin's movesets still have the same aesthetic of sword wielding anime girl. And besides, he's right. It really is just midrange, spacing, and side b. Take it from someone who mains all of the FE cast. They all play pretty much the same.

And yet, you and him are so very wrong: Robin being focused on making good use of his excellent projectiles and Corrin featuring bar none the longest reach of all Nintendo characters and making good usage of his dragon transformations.

They put zero effort into Kirby: Star Allies and yet it has already outsold every Fire Emblem Game, ever.

So you're pretty wrong. What's more important is that Star Allies is new, and a huge gathering of Kirby characters to play as.

Actually, I'd argue that a lot of effort did go into Star Allies because hoo boy, the lore on that one and the slight revamps of some character movesets is pretty freakin' great!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVCTz1S04QA

This was posted earlier, perhaps on another thread (Idk)

Ah, so another guy taking what Sakurai said out of context then. Here's what he actually said (or tweeted in any case, translated by SourceGaming; click on it to view it):

While we were in the discussion phase, I did worry that we were getting too many "Fire Emblem" characters, but thankfully, Corrin has become a fighter unlike any other. It'll be just a little while more until we're done, so please look forward to it!

Or we can do the Famitsu Column bit, also translated by SourceGaming (and you can click on it to view it in the flesh as well):

After internal analysis, we decided that if we’re going to make DLC, we would choose a character from a soon-to-be-released new game. After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot. It’s already been released in Japan, but is yet to be released overseas, making it a prime candidate in terms of timing. I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character.

Corrin has an ability called the “Dragon Fang,” an ability that lets them shapeshift into a dragon. Other than transforming their body into a dragon, they can transform parts of themselves, turning their arm into a spear, or into a beast’s fangs.

In Smash 4, Corrin has become a fighter with very long reach. Saying they’re similar to Dhalsim would be too much, but they can unleash smash attacks from an unreachable distance for other characters. Also, their side special move, where they can stab into the ground and pin themselves and/or their opponent there. This is a type of move that has never before appeared in Smash.

Never let there be said that fears of overrepresentation should stop someone from adding something unique to the game.

Not in the West. After Melee many people were confused about what Fire Emblem was and the game didn't even get a release in the west until two years after Melee was initially released. Hell, Marth never got his English remake until after Brawl was released. And you failed to mention that out of the fifteen games FE has, three of them are remakes. That's 20% of their games. Not to mention 12 games is measly compared to so many others.

So still more than supposedly more deserving games like Metroid, Star Fox, F-Zero, etc. etc.

Also, whether or not it had that history in the West is irrelevant: Fire Emblem is an extremely old franchise and one of the definers of turn-based strategy RPGs.

Tell that to the millions of people in the United States and Japan alone who voted Bandana Waddle Dee as the fourth most popular fighter request in the world and the even greater amount of people who agree that Fire Emblem has more than enough fighters already.

Again, those are unfortunately results based upon fan-made polls and thus will likely contain some inaccuracies with the actual poll data... though that is something we regretably will likely never get access to.

Certain aspects of that data will certainly be in-line with the poll, but I would hardly take it as confirmed fact because it is a statistic made by the fans, for the fans.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Any of those series are rather bad examples, actually. Mario has a recurring cast that often have major roles in every Mario game.

****ing rip waluigi fans.

As each game revolve around the protagonist, there's pretty much a fat chance in hell that a C-list character is getting considered for Smash.

Ah yes, because the burning question on everyone and their grandma's mind when playing Super Smash Bros 64 was "WHEREMST'VE ICE CLIMBERS?"

A highly requested ballot choice is comparable to lesser-known FE side characters? K. Rool trended on Japanese twitter at one point and pretty much all recorded Youtube reactions (where the largest portions of "casual" sections of the Smash fanbase resides) including one taken at Nintendo NY had people screaming "K. Rool?!" before he was even shown in his trailer. In contrast, the only Ultimate newcomer character that elicited a "who?" reaction was Richter (who is an echo fighter).

Ah, my mistake.

This example does not at all support your argument but rather hurts it even more.

A simple "K. Rool isn't obscure" would've sufficed. Aggressiveness like this sentence isn't necessary when the "argument" was a meme response to begin with.

To further add to this, pretty much every Ultimate newcomer character has been recognisable and popular to at least the general Smash fanbase. The only reasons why Chrom even managed to make it in were that he was highly requested and he was feasible as an echo. Even then, him being the main guy of Awakening made him pretty recognisable enough that no-one really went "who?" at his inclusion. Ultimate is clearly a different beast in terms of the roster than previous games (made most blatantly obvious by all veterans being a priority addition for this game. In contrast, Ness was planned to be cut in Melee at one point and had Mother 3 not been cancelled, that plan would have been followed through)

The one exception to this trend? Richter, who's an echo fighter. And to be fair, he's a major character in Castlevania so even he wouldn't be support the idea of not using main characters for FE.

Of course I'm not stupid enough to think any of the side characters in Fire Emblem are getting into Ultimate. There's only going to be 10-ish newcomers, and we've already got Chrom.

I'm merely suggesting that future installments are not going to make the same mistakes Ultimate is making.

However, the biggest reason Fire Emblem is getting so many playables compared to other series is that other series quite frankly do not have many characters who need to be repped in Smash in a playable manner because one character (or in some cases: two characters) rep everything the series is so thoroughly or in other cases rep it better through stages than their characters. Fire Emblem however is much like Mario and Pokémon: It continuously adds characters people want to see playable in Smash or has something interesting to give as a playable character in Smash and continuously does that with pretty much every game compared to very many other franchises.

This. Like it or not, Fire Emblem spawns Ensemble Darkhorses without breaking a sweat, thanks in no small part to its... "anime" overtones. And when a series' ensemble darkhorse doesn't get into Smash *COUGH*waluigi*COUGH* their fanbase gets really crabby.

Couple this with the fact that Fire Emblem is a niche franchise with loads and loads of protagonists and how much of a massive overlap there is between Smash fans and Fire Emblem fans, you have a recipe for disaster.

Xenoblade 2 is matching those numbers, where are the other 6 Xenoblade fighters?

5 MILLION people playing, FE:H isn't niche. Corrin is despised because he's a terrible character from what is considered one of the worst games in the series story-wise. Fire Emblem isn't a huge series, but Splatoon is the hot new thing in Nintendo. OF COURSE it would outsell most things, hell, it outsold Kirby: Star Allies. Yes, 7 reps is too much for the series, but that's just how it turned out because "Everyone is Here". FE does deserve 4 reps, and we have 4 unique characters: ultcorrin:. The rest are echoes or semiclones, and I'm OK with that. That's how FE works.

I'm not. I'd much rather have Roy be quickly developed as an echo and not take time away from others then to "justify" his honestly questionable inclusion (outside of Ultimate) with fruitless decloning efforts.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

At this point the only FE character I'd accept into Ultimate is Black Knight and that's mainly because he's a villain which I want more of.

 

[aarchak]

'm not. I'd much rather have Roy be quickly developed as an echo and not take time away from others then to "justify" his honestly questionable inclusion (outside of Ultimate) with fruitless decloning efforts.

Well, that's alright. He's in a weird situation and I guess this is how it turned out, with him being a weird semiclone. If you don't like that, it's okay. I'm not 100% on it myself, I just said "whatever" and just went on with my life.

 

[Opossum]

At this point the only FE character I'd accept into Ultimate is Black Knight and that's mainly because he's a villain which I want more of.

But Hardin is so much better.

 

[Factors]

Allow be to bear truth to this thread:

In which case he's still dead wrong because because everyone's Side B is different besides Roy (the semiclone) and the echo fighters.

Oh wait, you forgot: That's over half of the FE roster (Marth included).
As someone who mains quite a few characters, i can assure you that spamming Arcfire, Instant pin and whatever Ike's side b's name is are all viable strategies.

And all of the people I know who played Fire Emblem Heroes still play it regularly, working on their own pet projects for clearing tactical missions. Like it or not, the game clearly appeals to people, whether it is for getting through some of the weekly content, making unique teams, executing their formed strategies with some good thinking, and making their favorites stronger.

I know no one, online, or in the real world, who ever played it. All I know is the game was called "cheap" for having low-quality game design and being stuffed with girls.
Speaking of which, after Ike's games failed utterly and the series was on the verge of outright cancellation, they did decide to switch to more anime-style aesthetic in hopes of bringing in more people when they made awakening. Then they filled the games with girls. It doesn't take a genious to see where all of the "horny weeb" arguments are coming from.

And yet, you and him are so very wrong: Robin being focused on making good use of his excellent projectiles and Corrin featuring bar none the longest reach of all Nintendo characters and making good usage of his dragon transformations.

See above. It's still the same aesthetic of a sword wielding anime character.

Actually, I'd argue that a lot of effort did go into Star Allies because hoo boy, the lore on that one and the slight revamps of some character movesets is pretty freakin' great!

I do agree that Star Allies was amazing (and far better than any FE game for that matter), but it can be said that an EX mode would be nice....

Ah, so another guy taking what Sakurai said out of context then. Here's what he actually said (or tweeted in any case, translated by SourceGaming; click on it to view it):

He's not taking Sakurai out of context. They did wont to reserve a spot for a character from a new game but IS pressured him to make it a FE fighter.

Never let there be said that fears of overrepresentation should stop someone from adding something unique to the game.

...but like no FE fighter is actively unique in their own way so far.

So still more than supposedly more deserving games like Metroid, Star Fox, F-Zero, etc. etc.

Also, whether or not it had that history in the West is irrelevant: Fire Emblem is an extremely old franchise and one of the definers of turn-based strategy RPGs.

One: When did he ever mention those three. They're all second/third level franchises. He mentioned franchises that are more popular than FE: Kirby, Mario, Zelda, Pokemon. Stop grasping at straws.
And for the record FE never defined turned based combat. Pokemon did. FE just did it first but was never good at it (hence the fact it took them 14 years to reach a global audience).

Again, those are unfortunately results based upon fan-made polls and thus will likely contain some inaccuracies with the actual poll data... though that is something we regretably will likely never get access to.

Certain aspects of that data will certainly be in-line with the poll, but I would hardly take it as confirmed fact because it is a statistic made by the fans, for the fans.

There is an official poll Nintendo conducted, and Bandana Waddle Dee was the fourth most popular pick. Look it up.

 

[Folt]

Allow be to bear truth to this thread:


Oh wait, you forgot: That's over half of the FE roster (Marth included).
As someone who mains quite a few characters, i can assure you that spamming Arcfire, Instant pin and whatever Ike's side b's name is are all viable strategies.

I know no one, online, or in the real world, who ever played it. All I know is the game was called "cheap" for having low-quality game design and being stuffed with girls.
Speaking of which, after Ike's games failed utterly and the series was on the verge of outright cancellation, they did decide to switch to more anime-style aesthetic in hopes of bringing in more people when they made awakening. Then they filled the games with girls. It doesn't take a genious to see where all of the "horny weeb" arguments are coming from.

See above. It's still the same aesthetic of a sword wielding anime character.

I do agree that Star Allies was amazing (and far better than any FE game for that matter), but it can be said that an EX mode would be nice....

He's not taking Sakurai out of context. They did wont to reserve a spot for a character from a new game but IS pressured him to make it a FE fighter.

...but like no FE fighter is actively unique in their own way so far.

One: When did he ever mention those three. They're all second/third level franchises. He mentioned franchises that are more popular than FE: Kirby, Mario, Zelda, Pokemon. Stop grasping at straws.
And for the record FE never defined turned based combat. Pokemon did. FE just did it first but was never good at it (hence the fact it took them 14 years to reach a global audience).

There is an official poll Nintendo conducted, and Bandana Waddle Dee was the fourth most popular pick. Look it up.

...

You know you're winning an argument when someone decides to make an account on a forum he's never posted on before just to use that one debut post to try in vain to refute your arguments. Bonus points for joining today.

 

[aarchak]

...

You know you're winning an argument when someone decides to make an account on a forum he's never posted on before just to use that one debut post to try in vain to refute your arguments. Bonus points for joining today.

Especially when what he's saying is the "truth", he's acting like he's the prophet bearing God's wisdom down on the lowly masses, doesn't give sources to any of his claims (like the supposed Nintendo poll that actually showed its results), strawmans arguments, and says that just because everyone's Side-B is viable, it's all the same. Just pathetic.

 

[The DanMan051]

Allow be to bear truth to this thread:


Oh wait, you forgot: That's over half of the FE roster (Marth included).
As someone who mains quite a few characters, i can assure you that spamming Arcfire, Instant pin and whatever Ike's side b's name is are all viable strategies.

I know no one, online, or in the real world, who ever played it. All I know is the game was called "cheap" for having low-quality game design and being stuffed with girls.
Speaking of which, after Ike's games failed utterly and the series was on the verge of outright cancellation, they did decide to switch to more anime-style aesthetic in hopes of bringing in more people when they made awakening. Then they filled the games with girls. It doesn't take a genious to see where all of the "horny weeb" arguments are coming from.

See above. It's still the same aesthetic of a sword wielding anime character.

I do agree that Star Allies was amazing (and far better than any FE game for that matter), but it can be said that an EX mode would be nice....

He's not taking Sakurai out of context. They did wont to reserve a spot for a character from a new game but IS pressured him to make it a FE fighter.

...but like no FE fighter is actively unique in their own way so far.

One: When did he ever mention those three. They're all second/third level franchises. He mentioned franchises that are more popular than FE: Kirby, Mario, Zelda, Pokemon. Stop grasping at straws.
And for the record FE never defined turned based combat. Pokemon did. FE just did it first but was never good at it (hence the fact it took them 14 years to reach a global audience).

There is an official poll Nintendo conducted, and Bandana Waddle Dee was the fourth most popular pick. Look it up.

You made an account just for this; several conclusions come to mind.

Ah yes, tangential evidence countering tangential evidence. It's almost like it's a pointless thing to argue over.

Newsflash: the series always had anime-esque aesthetics. It just got different artists and art direction each game or two. Awakening sold well because it had Casual mode eliminating a (largely psychological) barrier of entry by greatly reducing the learning curve + an existant marketing budget, on top of positive word of mouth.

But I mean, it's obvious you're just spanking a massive hateboner for the series anyhow. Soooo, shifting things over...

Fire Emblem is indeed a niche franchise, it's why I see it struggling to meet ends as another successful Nintendo one after Awakening. Hell, I've noticed the FE musou Fire Emblem Warriors doesn't get as much attention as the more acclaimed Hyrule Warriors despite having much more fanservice which helped revive the series.

I'd agree Corrin as a terrible character, but I would rant about Fates. You're right though, Corrin in Smash doesn't want me to want to give the stink eye to the writers. I'd would also argue Chrom being in Smash due to him not really standing out compared to other representatives but they pulled it off. I'm more interested in Sakurai's philosophy in implementing FE fighters and how they would stand out than general representation.

FEW had far less marketing, yet still managed to sell a million units in the same amount of time HW did. And most actual Musou fans (like me, for instance) prefer it to HW for a variety of reasons.

Also, again: fanservice didn't revive the series. Casual mode greatly reducing the learning curve, an existent marketing budget, and positive word of mouth did. Fates' official numbers are conflicting; earlier on shortly after it launched in Europe Nintendo claimed it had sold 1.84 million. And SoV, though its sales were far more modest, still is officially a success-- it outsold Samus Returns, another 3DS remake of a darkhorse second installment that released a few months later.

Let's settle this with FACTS, shall we?


FE is not, and most likelly will never be as popular as the franchises you are implying. Zelda, Mario, Kirbt, Pokemon, and even DK are all close to or better than FE (In terms of sales/fanbase size).
Heroes does have 5 mllion sales but it got **** reviews. Out of the dozen or so people that I know who still play the game, they all say it's for one reason: waifus. Specifically, big-breasted females with trumped-up bodily proportions in sexually provocative outfits.



Robin and Corrin don't bring any new playstyles to Smash. They're both about what the rest are: Midrange and spacing, juggling with aerials, and spamming Side + B.
And as I said before, it's five million DOWNLOADS Heroes has. The reviews were bad and people are beginning to stop playing it, just like *ahem* Fortnite.



That's a pretty bad comparison. FE does outsell Yoshi well. It is "up there" with DK. But Kirby annihilates FE in terms of sales and popularity. The reason it doesn''t have more reps than FE, however, is because Sakurai is too afraid that people will call "Sakurai bias" if he adds another Kirby rep.

While it's true that Sakurai's initial decision about Corrin was that she was unique, he did say later that looking back it was a bad idea. He was pressured to add more FE characters by Intelligent and Nintendo. Corrin, again, still had the aesthetic of a sword-wielding anime style fighter, and she sill had the same Marth-style gameplay, complete with a tipper. None of them really stand out.

I don't think they pay attention to fan-made polls. It seems like they only payed attention to their official polls.

72% metascore for FEH; identical to AC Pocket Camp and slightly worse than SMR's 76 metascore. By many measures, decently solid and nothing but the most insane amount of skewing could make it "****".

And why does this have to be a matter of **** measuring against other series? Nobody is saying it'll be nearly as big as Mario, DK, LoZ, or Pokemon (the biggest media franchise in existence). Though as was already pointed out, FE's pretty much on-par with Kirby sales-wise at this point.

Corrin has far better zoning capabilities than Marth due to their neutral special and overall further reach, and most of their attacks don't need to be worried about being tippered at all-- unlike Marth. In addition, their f-smash is unique among the playable cast and can cover some ledge options. On top of their Dragon transformation giving radically different aesthetics to the majority of their moveset. Plus, Dragon Lunge actually pinning is another very unique aspect to their kit that allows for different combos/follow-ups-- but apparently the input used instead of the function assigned to the input is what matters to some of you.

 

[31fps]

You made an account just for this. ...Who's alt are you? The Bean? 31fps?

Whoah....enough about Fire Emblem now. That's a serious accusation. I'm not on often because I have a job. But that doesn't mean I would create an alt just to make my opinion sound more relevant.

You should consider what you're talking about before you accuse someone of something like that. This thread is hugely popular. It's possible he joined the thread to hop in on the discussion. Be kind to new smashers and don't accuse them of something so insensible.

 

[Opossum]

Guys, if you think someone's an alt, just report the post and the mods will check. No need to stir drama by speculating about it in the thread itself.

 

[The DanMan051]

Whoah....enough about Fire Emblem now. That's a serious accusation. I'm not on often because I have a job. But that doesn't mean I would create an alt just to make my opinion sound more relevant.

You should consider what you're talking about before you accuse someone of something like that. This thread is hugely popular. It's possible he joined the thread to hop in on the discussion. Be kind to new smashers and don't accuse them of something so insensible.

Guys, if you think someone's an alt, just report the post and the mods will check. No need to stir drama by speculating about it in the thread itself.

Apologies; things were just a bit heated and for some reason I thought spelling things out like that then and there was a good idea.

 

[captainghost07]

As a fan of Fire Emblem ( I would even say it is my 2nd favorite Nintendo franchise behind Xenoblade) it pains me to see the amount of hate FE gets not just in Smash but in general. I don't care if people don't like FE, but every time I watch a video by some youtuber or games journalist there is always that one person in the group who just always has to make that snarky comment or show how much they hate FE while they are in a group discussion or something. That is what angers me the most about FE haters.

It's bad enough that the FE fandom community is so bad and toxic within itself, not only do we have the FE elitist hating on everything FE awakening and onward, but we also have Smash players hating on FE for over representation (Which I don't really find true considering it's basically 4 unique characters and 3 clones and FE has been around since the Famicom and sell just as well as Kirby and Yoshi games) and finally we got the small group of people who hate FE just because it's not Advance Wars. Fire Emblem basically gets attacked from 3 different groups of people.

Which is just sad because at the end of the day, I like Fire Emblem not because i'm some "horny weeb" that likes to see anime tiddies or something, but because Fire Emblem is a great strategy/tactics rpg which even at it lowest ("cough" Fates "cough") can still produce a good game. I understand that FE is not for everyone and that fine, but just because i'm not that into Kirby doesn't mean I should bash and hate on it every chance I get.

 

[Deleted member]

As a fan of Fire Emblem ( I would even say it is my 2nd favorite Nintendo franchise behind Xenoblade) it pains me to see the amount of hate FE gets not just in Smash but in general. I don't care if people don't like FE, but every time I watch a video by some youtuber or games journalist there is always that one person in the group who just always has to make that snarky comment or show how much they hate FE while they are in a group discussion or something. That is what angers me the most about FE haters.

It's bad enough that the FE fandom community is so bad and toxic within itself, not only do we have the FE elitist hating on everything FE awakening and onward, but we also have Smash players hating on FE for over representation (Which I don't really find true considering it's basically 4 unique characters and 3 clones and FE has been around since the Famicom and sell just as well as Kirby and Yoshi games) and finally we got the small group of people who hate FE just because it's not Advance Wars. Fire Emblem basically gets attacked from 3 different groups of people.

Which is just sad because at the end of the day, I like Fire Emblem not because i'm some "horny weeb" that likes to see anime tiddies or something, but because Fire Emblem is a great strategy/tactics rpg which even at it lowest ("cough" Fates "cough") can still produce a good game. I understand that FE is not for everyone and that fine, but just because i'm not that into Kirby doesn't I should bash and hate it.

Man. You have my sympathies. I admit that I have my problems with the series, but it sucks to see FE fans like you go through drama like this.

 

[Fell God]

It's bad enough that the FE fandom community is so bad and toxic within itself, not only do we have the FE elitist hating on everything FE awakening and onward, but we also have Smash players hating on FE for over representation (Which I don't really find true considering it's basically 4 unique characters and 3 clones and FE has been around since the Famicom and sell just as well as Kirby and Yoshi games) and finally we got the small group of people who hate FE just because it's not Advance Wars. Fire Emblem basically gets attacked from 3 different groups of people.

A bit off topic but the FE elitists are really obnoxious, don't think I've ever had a pleasant conversation with one of those creatures.

 

[Deleted member]

A bit off topic but the FE elitists are really obnoxious, don't think I've ever had a pleasant conversation with one of those creatures.

I mean, I've seen some pretty bad new FE fans too, but I don't think newer FE fans are bad at all. But I digress, both sides of that whole mess are really stupid. It just makes me sad to see what that fanbase has been reduced to.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

After being alerted by a moderater it has come to my attention that a particular user, 3 31fps , has been creating alternate accounts. The accoutns in question are:
TheBean
Factors
Please do not create alternate accounts. If you have an opinion please stick to one account. Do not try to make it seem like more people are on your side. Continue to debate without creating alts.
Another note is even if you are right, never accuse someone of being an alt before you have proof. I do not have any alternate accounts.

 

[Folt]

After being alerted by a moderater it has come to my attention that a particular user, 3 31fps , has been creating alternate accounts. The accoutns in question are:
TheBean
Factors
Please do not create alternate accounts. If you have an opinion please stick to one account. Do not try to make it seem like more people are on your side. Continue to debate without creating alts.
Another note is even if you are right, never accuse someone of being an alt before you have proof. I do not have any alternate accounts.

Whelp! I had my suspicions about Factors (because their arguments was eerily similiar to 31fps's arguments) but I never guessed that TheBean was one as well, though it's much more apparent in hindsight.

 

[Luigifan18]

A bit off topic but the FE elitists are really obnoxious, don't think I've ever had a pleasant conversation with one of those creatures.

Elitists in general are obnoxious and unpleasant. At best. At worst, they're literally Al Qaeda.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

After doing some fact-checking, I can follow up to some recent posts:

Kirby does not "annihilate" Fire Emblem in terms of sales. However the series does sell slightly better than FE.

FE:H was never designed to be about girls. The game does have a positive metascore in the lower %70's. The game was never intended to be a "horny weeb game," neither was Splatoon or any one of Nintendo's major first parties.

Whether or not Robin and Corrin are "unique" is completely subjective. You can think they are unique or not.

Sakurai has mentioned that he was pressured to increase the Fire Emblem roster size by Nintendo and Intelligent Systems.

Bandana Waddle Dee has been voted as the world's fourth most popular fighter request on multiple polls. Whether or not those were official polls is beyond my knowledge.

 

[The DanMan051]

A bit off topic but the FE elitists are really obnoxious, don't think I've ever had a pleasant conversation with one of those creatures.

I'd say both sides have their issues, which just make it harder to even want to be involved with things. I'm not one to condemn entire fandoms, but the most vocal subgroups just egg eachother on and have made things incredibly polarizing; Serenes' Forest is the closest to an even-keeled area for FE discussion and even then it fluctuates a bit.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I just want to be clear that I have never created an alternate account. The idea of forming extra accounts to make it sound like you have the popular opinion disgusts me.

At the same time though, please refrain from posting any toxic material on this thread. This was intended for friendly debate and not threats or rudeness.

 

[Opossum]

A bit off topic but the FE elitists are really obnoxious, don't think I've ever had a pleasant conversation with one of those creatures.

To be absolutely fair, said elitism goes both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of newer fans bashing older titles for pretty petty reasons.

Still better than Pokémon and Smash when it comes to generational divides, but...that's not saying much, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

After being alerted by a moderater it has come to my attention that a particular user, 3 31fps , has been creating alternate accounts. The accoutns in question are:
TheBean
Factors
Please do not create alternate accounts. If you have an opinion please stick to one account. Do not try to make it seem like more people are on your side. Continue to debate without creating alts.
Another note is even if you are right, never accuse someone of being an alt before you have proof. I do not have any alternate accounts.

I thought there something suspicious about all three of those accounts.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I thought there something suspicious about all three of those accounts.

Me too. I'm glad we could sort this out.

 

[Deleted member]

Me too. I'm glad we could sort this out.

I think he literally just made those accounts to talk bad about sword users. He did that in a thread I made, and when I challenged what he was saying, he got mad and accused me of “baiting” lol.

But I’m glad that whole issue is resolved now.

 

[I'd Negæte That]

What's poppin ️ I'm back. The mod negated my ban and I can post happily ever after.
Also, wow, I nevertheless knew fire emblem was such a heated topic. I just think it's been represented a wee bit too much and that there isn't no need to add or remove any characters. I dislike the idea of cutting characters, so just cause I don't really like Corrin in the game doesn't mean I want them to negæte her in the next game.