How come so many people are taking a dump of FE lately?

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I'm super happy I was able to sort this out with the mods. We have decided to not discuss this further, but I can say it was all one enormous misunderstanding. I never created any alternate accounts, the confusion was about login times and similar opinions.

Now that this is over we can finally go back to debating.
 
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To be absolutely fair, said elitism goes both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of newer fans bashing older titles for pretty petty reasons.

Still better than Pokémon and Smash when it comes to generational divides, but...that's not saying much, lol.
Yeah, well, neither side's actions excuses the other's
 

Alastor017

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To be absolutely fair, said elitism goes both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of newer fans bashing older titles for pretty petty reasons.

Still better than Pokémon and Smash when it comes to generational divides, but...that's not saying much, lol.
Y'know, the whole "Great Fire Emblem Divide" reminds a lot of the whole "Persona vs SMT" community drama I saw in the MegaTen fanbase. It's eerie how the two fanbases are similar to each other.
 
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I think one thing we should all try to do to avoid spreading flame is never compare FE to other franchises as "evidence" that it's popular/unpopular. People don't like it when their favorite IP's get compared to others, even if it's in their favor; it creates a sense that the bottom line is statistics and numbers and nothing else. And if you're comparing FE to series that you think aren't as good, remember that you could be offending fans of those IP's.
 

Folt

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I think one thing we should all try to do to avoid spreading flame is never compare FE to other franchises as "evidence" that it's popular/unpopular. People don't like it when their favorite IP's get compared to others, even if it's in their favor; it creates a sense that the bottom line is statistics and numbers and nothing else. And if you're comparing FE to series that you think aren't as good, remember that you could be offending fans of those IP's.
On the other hand, if you get irked if an IP you don't like is compared to an IP you like because you don't want to think that this IP could possibly compare favourably to your IP, then I don't think you'll be able to mount any decent arguments or make logical points in your favor. 31fps ultimately made alts to make it seem like my arguments didn't hold water and ended up dragging both his name and his argument into the mud.
 

Gothitelle

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Would it be wrong to say that the reason FE representation is so hated by Smash fans is probably not because of it's quantity, but how much fan-favourite characters there are? The Legend Of Zelda series is pretty dodgy for representation - three Links, two Zeldas, and a Ganondorf, put in over more unique characters like Skull Kid, Midna, etc. Pokemon, meanwhile, keeps getting marketing representatives rather than fan wanted ones - between Greninja in Sm4sh and it looking like Incineroar for Ultimate, we won't have got a Pokemon not motivated by marketing since 2008, a whole decade. Between Mario, Pokemon, LoZ, and FE - the four largest represented series - only Mario and Fire Emblem really have a varied roster of fighters.

That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
 

Folt

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Would it be wrong to say that the reason FE representation is so hated by Smash fans is probably not because of it's quantity, but how much fan-favourite characters there are? The Legend Of Zelda series is pretty dodgy for representation - three Links, two Zeldas, and a Ganondorf, put in over more unique characters like Skull Kid, Midna, etc. Pokemon, meanwhile, keeps getting marketing representatives rather than fan wanted ones - between Greninja in Sm4sh and it looking like Incineroar for Ultimate, we won't have got a Pokemon not motivated by marketing since 2008, a whole decade. Between Mario, Pokemon, LoZ, and FE - the four largest represented series - only Mario and Fire Emblem really have a varied roster of fighters.

That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
That's... quite a unique take on this actually. Not gonna lie: It's an interesting argument compared to the usual ones.

I think the Zelda thing is mostly because Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf/Ganon tend to be the ones who are the most likely to appear in future games. Other characters tend to be mostly oneshot characters who's importance ends with their debut game. And of course, Legend of Zelda doesn't always use the same Link for each game; Link ending up being a child, adult, or toonified child depending on the game and where it ends up on the Zelda timeline (which generally justifies why all those versions of Link end up as different playable characters).

Pokémon... I kinda agree and don't agree with you on that one... Mewtwo, Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, Lucario, and Greninja, are all rather popular among the majority of the Pokémon fanbase, though I admit I only really like Ivysaur (and technically Pokémon Trainer by proxy) as a Pokémon rep because the Venusaur evolution line is my favorite 1st Gen starter line (and because I have a higher affinity for the 1st Gen starters out of all the Pokémon that are actually playable in Smash) so I would fall into the minority who isn't very content with the Pokémon line-up that they have at the moment. Incineroar would do nothing to better the Pokémon line-up for me, but the chips fall where the chips fall.
 

HypnoMaster372

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Would it be wrong to say that the reason FE representation is so hated by Smash fans is probably not because of it's quantity, but how much fan-favourite characters there are? The Legend Of Zelda series is pretty dodgy for representation - three Links, two Zeldas, and a Ganondorf, put in over more unique characters like Skull Kid, Midna, etc. Pokemon, meanwhile, keeps getting marketing representatives rather than fan wanted ones - between Greninja in Sm4sh and it looking like Incineroar for Ultimate, we won't have got a Pokemon not motivated by marketing since 2008, a whole decade. Between Mario, Pokemon, LoZ, and FE - the four largest represented series - only Mario and Fire Emblem really have a varied roster of fighters.

That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
Must say I absolutely agree with everything you said there...
...don't exactly have anything else to say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Oddball

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That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
I can see where you're coming from there, but to me it doesn't feel so much like we're getting a massive spectrum as we are getting the same guy with a slightly different look.
 

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Simple, because I have a bias based on what games I play and will only be enthusiastic if it's a character I know from one of my personal favorites (or I'm tired of people spamming posts everywhere that they want the character in:ultkrool:). I am a human being and have never played a Fire Emblem game, incurring the same negative emotion that I had with Isabelle, except when a(n) FE character gets announced it's always surrounded by good stuff which will make me NOT tear my hair out and write an essay-long comment on the social of the character saying why everyone who voted for him/her was selfish.

Also, too many animé swordsmen.
 

Quillion

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You guys think Fire Emblem only getting sword wielders is bad? At least most of them have markedly different specials from one another.

Have you guys even glanced at Star Fox, all of whose characters get the same goddamn Blaster, Forward Dash, Charge-up Dash, Reflector set?

At least Fire Emblem movesets are fairly creative. Star Fox movesets, while unique, are not creative.
 

Luigifan18

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You guys think Fire Emblem only getting sword wielders is bad? At least most of them have markedly different specials from one another.

Have you guys even glanced at Star Fox, all of whose characters get the same goddamn Blaster, Forward Dash, Charge-up Dash, Reflector set?

At least Fire Emblem movesets are fairly creative. Star Fox movesets, while unique, are not creative.
Yes, and that's why I support Krystal.
 
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You guys think Fire Emblem only getting sword wielders is bad? At least most of them have markedly different specials from one another.

Have you guys even glanced at Star Fox, all of whose characters get the same goddamn Blaster, Forward Dash, Charge-up Dash, Reflector set?

At least Fire Emblem movesets are fairly creative. Star Fox movesets, while unique, are not creative.
To be fair, the Stair Fax series doesn't lend itself very well at lending material for a fighting game with most of the cast spending the whole game inside a cockpit. Considering the space opera setting, everyone having a blaster is very believable at least.
 
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Quillion

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Considering the space opera setting, everyone having a blaster is very believable at least.
Everyone having a blaster special works. But having the same Side-B, Up-B, and Down-B? That just reeks of uncreativity.

Assault had great weapon ideas. Use them!
 
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You guys think Fire Emblem only getting sword wielders is bad? At least most of them have markedly different specials from one another.

Have you guys even glanced at Star Fox, all of whose characters get the same goddamn Blaster, Forward Dash, Charge-up Dash, Reflector set?

At least Fire Emblem movesets are fairly creative. Star Fox movesets, while unique, are not creative.
The only reason Star Fox even got Falco and Wolf was because they were last-minute/low-priority newcomers in Melee and Brawl respectively was because they could re-use assets from Fox. Sakurai even called Wolf an "lucky inclusion" in an old interview. If it weren't for these factors, Fox would have remained the only Star Fox character for every single game.
 

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The only reason Star Fox even got Falco and Wolf was because they were last-minute/low-priority newcomers in Melee and Brawl respectively was because they could re-use assets from Fox. Sakurai even called Wolf an "lucky inclusion" in an old interview. If it weren't for these factors, Fox would have remained the only Star Fox character for every single game.
Honestly, I think Falco is a Ganondorf situation. I think he would've gotten into Brawl easily if he wasn't in Melee.
 
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Honestly, I think Falco is a Ganondorf situation. I think he would've gotten into Brawl easily if he wasn't in Melee.
I'm going to be controversial for a bit and disagree with you. Ganondorf is such a huge, iconic Nintendo villain that, had he missed Melee, his fan demand for Brawl would have definitely been overwhelmingly huge to the point were I'd think Sakurai would feel the need to satisfy that demand and have him as a high-priority addition. Falco's demand wouldn't probably have been as overwhelmingly big since Star Fox fans would have been split between Falco and Wolf whereas the LoZ fans would unite to support Ganondorf for Brawl. At least that's how I see it.
 

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To be absolutely fair, said elitism goes both ways. I've seen more than my fair share of newer fans bashing older titles for pretty petty reasons.

Still better than Pokémon and Smash when it comes to generational divides, but...that's not saying much, lol.
Yeah. I've played and enjoyed every FE title but the original NES ones (and those were both remade, so, whatever). And I've had needlessly uncomfortable conversations with both sides of the aisle. Some chide me for liking the 3DS games. Some chide me for playing the SNES games.

I don't get it.
 

Luigifan18

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I'm going to be controversial for a bit and disagree with you. Ganondorf is such a huge, iconic Nintendo villain that, had he missed Melee, his fan demand for Brawl would have definitely been overwhelmingly huge to the point were I'd think Sakurai would feel the need to satisfy that demand and have him as a high-priority addition. Falco's demand wouldn't probably have been as overwhelmingly big since Star Fox fans would have been split between Falco and Wolf whereas the LoZ fans would unite to support Ganondorf for Brawl. At least that's how I see it.
You’re forgetting Krystal. So, it would really be a three-way split. (And while I do support Vaati, Ganondorf definitely deserved to be in Smash before Vaati. Vaati's only the second-most important villain in the Zelda series, and Ganondorf's the one who beats him.)
 

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Would it be wrong to say that the reason FE representation is so hated by Smash fans is probably not because of it's quantity, but how much fan-favourite characters there are? The Legend Of Zelda series is pretty dodgy for representation - three Links, two Zeldas, and a Ganondorf, put in over more unique characters like Skull Kid, Midna, etc. Pokemon, meanwhile, keeps getting marketing representatives rather than fan wanted ones - between Greninja in Sm4sh and it looking like Incineroar for Ultimate, we won't have got a Pokemon not motivated by marketing since 2008, a whole decade. Between Mario, Pokemon, LoZ, and FE - the four largest represented series - only Mario and Fire Emblem really have a varied roster of fighters.

That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
You're not wrong, at all. But at the same time, I'd argue that's more of a perception thing than an absolute.

Consider, for example, Roy. He was back as Smash 4 DLC due to fan demand, yes. But that fan demand came because of Melee. Very few people in the West have ever played the one FE game Roy starred in. It was essentially a Melee fan request, not a FE fan request, and he was only ever in Melee for marketing reasons to start.

Corrin was also put in for marketing reasons, similar to Greninja. Sakurai was given art and gameplay of the character well before release with the intent of putting Corrin in as DLC, meaning that fans never demanded Corrin at all; Corrin was just given to us. It's a unique kit, which is great, but Fates itself didn't win over too many fans that weren't already in love with Awakening-- and Awakening already got Robin and Lucina. With Chrom, that brings the Awakening count to three out of eight, even though it's only one game in the series that had no direct sequels.

I liken FE representation to LoZ at this point, as a longtime FE fan myself. No, we don't have a bunch of Links, technically, but we do have seven lords out of eight possible characters, and there are several recognizable characters with better moveset potential, such as Hector, Reinhardt, Mecaiah, Tiki, Tharja, Azura, Ephraim or Anna. Then there are the two fan-favorite characters I often see supported here that would have supported other games besides Awakening, but no less lost to Chrom anyway: Lyn and Black Knight.

I can understand from an outside perspective thinking that FE fans are getting everything they want, but the truth is that FE is a very large series to represent, and fans of games before the 3DS titles haven't gotten anything new since Brawl. There's a fair amount of FE fans who are just as unhappy with Chrom/Lucina/Corrin as the rest of the Smash community.
 
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Gothitelle

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I can understand from an outside perspective thinking that FE fans are getting everything they want, but the truth is that FE is a very large series to represent, and fans of games before the 3DS titles haven't gotten anything new since Brawl.
Oh no, trust me - I understand that FE fans themselves may not be happy with it. I'm a Pokemon fan, and as I say, the only unique pick not totally mandated by the Pokemon Company and their newest game since Melee was Pokemon Trainer. I mean exactly what you said, that from an outside perspective it feels like FE is getting more than most other series.
 
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as a pretty big fire emblem fan, I too have some issue with the roster, the lack of variety is what annoys me the most, we basically have only 4 unique movesets, roy is derivative and chrom and lucina are garbage echoes, I think that a good chunk of complaints seem to look at the roster and not the connotations of every new character who is included, if a clone is all that is added should it be treated the same as something new entirely?

I was very mad about chrom's announcement because he brought nothing new to the table, his aesthetics are nothing new(blue haired lord, cape, uses falchion, one arm completely exposed, sounds like an OC who is descended from Ike and Marth), his moveset gives us nothing new, sorry but having Ike's up special is not "new" even if you pair it up with roy's everything else, he represents nothing new (friggin third awakening rep, I think this is the greatest sin here, if it was sigurd as a marth clone, I could understand because genealogy has not true representation).

I am still holding out for the black knight and don't think that chrom hurts his odds that much, but chrom still was a bad choice in every way possible purely because he does nothing.

I don't even think that using swords or similar aesthetics is a problem, just this lack of distinct movesets hurts.
 

Arthur97

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as a pretty big fire emblem fan, I too have some issue with the roster, the lack of variety is what annoys me the most, we basically have only 4 unique movesets, roy is derivative and chrom and lucina are garbage echoes, I think that a good chunk of complaints seem to look at the roster and not the connotations of every new character who is included, if a clone is all that is added should it be treated the same as something new entirely?

I was very mad about chrom's announcement because he brought nothing new to the table, his aesthetics are nothing new(blue haired lord, cape, uses falchion, one arm completely exposed, sounds like an OC who is descended from Ike and Marth), his moveset gives us nothing new, sorry but having Ike's up special is not "new" even if you pair it up with roy's everything else, he represents nothing new (friggin third awakening rep, I think this is the greatest sin here, if it was sigurd as a marth clone, I could understand because genealogy has not true representation).

I am still holding out for the black knight and don't think that chrom hurts his odds that much, but chrom still was a bad choice in every way possible purely because he does nothing.

I don't even think that using swords or similar aesthetics is a problem, just this lack of distinct movesets hurts.
You realize that if Black Knight did get it, it would probably be as an Ike echo, right?
 

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as a pretty big fire emblem fan, I too have some issue with the roster, the lack of variety is what annoys me the most, we basically have only 4 unique movesets, roy is derivative and chrom and lucina are garbage echoes, I think that a good chunk of complaints seem to look at the roster and not the connotations of every new character who is included, if a clone is all that is added should it be treated the same as something new entirely?

I was very mad about chrom's announcement because he brought nothing new to the table, his aesthetics are nothing new(blue haired lord, cape, uses falchion, one arm completely exposed, sounds like an OC who is descended from Ike and Marth), his moveset gives us nothing new, sorry but having Ike's up special is not "new" even if you pair it up with roy's everything else, he represents nothing new (friggin third awakening rep, I think this is the greatest sin here, if it was sigurd as a marth clone, I could understand because genealogy has not true representation).

I am still holding out for the black knight and don't think that chrom hurts his odds that much, but chrom still was a bad choice in every way possible purely because he does nothing.

I don't even think that using swords or similar aesthetics is a problem, just this lack of distinct movesets hurts.
If having variety means losing Chrom, then **** variety.
 
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You realize that if Black Knight did get it, it would probably be as an Ike echo, right?
you seem to misunderstand, I was calling lucina and chrom garbage, not echoes, echoes are wonderful, they give opportunities to many characters who otherwise wouldn't stand a chance.
 
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as a pretty big fire emblem fan, I too have some issue with the roster, the lack of variety is what annoys me the most, we basically have only 4 unique movesets, roy is derivative and chrom and lucina are garbage echoes, I think that a good chunk of complaints seem to look at the roster and not the connotations of every new character who is included, if a clone is all that is added should it be treated the same as something new entirely?

I was very mad about chrom's announcement because he brought nothing new to the table, his aesthetics are nothing new(blue haired lord, cape, uses falchion, one arm completely exposed, sounds like an OC who is descended from Ike and Marth), his moveset gives us nothing new, sorry but having Ike's up special is not "new" even if you pair it up with roy's everything else, he represents nothing new (friggin third awakening rep, I think this is the greatest sin here, if it was sigurd as a marth clone, I could understand because genealogy has not true representation).

I am still holding out for the black knight and don't think that chrom hurts his odds that much, but chrom still was a bad choice in every way possible purely because he does nothing.

I don't even think that using swords or similar aesthetics is a problem, just this lack of distinct movesets hurts.
Let me post a part of the interview between Peter Rosas and Gamespot when discussing Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, specifically where Rosas explains Magneto's absence:

"If you were to actually think about it, these characters are just functions. They're just doing things,"
"Magneto, case and point, is a favorite because he has eight-way dash and he's really fast, right? Well guess what, Nova can do the same thing, Captain Marvel can do the same thing. Ultron can do the same thing."
"It's just the function that people are associating with the character, and there's no shortage of that. We made sure that all proper playstyles can be represented with our current roster."

When some people look at a fighter, they see the character and not the moveset. The appeal in Chrom's inclusion lies in playing as him rather than in what he can do, and he showed considerable support during Smash 4's development. After all, characters aren't just functions. For a lot of players, being represented by their character is more than enough even if the moveset isn't completely different. In no way he can be considered a bad choice when people asked for him and the Smash team simply delivered.
I don't understand why you would get mad at something like that when those echoes have been accompanied by plenty of new content. They don't try to disguise the fact that they are merely clones, their reveals are evidence for that as Chrom and Dark Samus are numbered after their originals and they also didn't get a cinematic trailer like Simon and King. K. Rool did.
As Sakurai put it before, they are just like a side dish or a free dessert sitting next to a full course meal.
 
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aarchak

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you seem to misunderstand, I was calling lucina and chrom garbage
I personally like Lucina and think she's great, and I don't mind Chrom, but there are many more FE characters that have been highly requested, ones that are unique or give their game more representation. Like Sigurd, Alm/Celica, Ephraim, Hector, Micaiah, the list goes on. I do agree that there should be more variety in games represented, but Chrom is fine, he's not really that important and I don't think he's a terrible character either. He also isn't like Marth OR Ike at all, he's his own person.
 

Arthur97

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you seem to misunderstand, I was calling lucina and chrom garbage, not echoes, echoes are wonderful, they give opportunities to many characters who otherwise wouldn't stand a chance.
Well, at that point it sounds like your just angry cause you don't like them. Just because you don't want them doesn't mean a lot of others don't. He did specifically say that Chrom (and Dark Samus) were highly requested. Besides, Chrom is much more important than Dark Knight.
 

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I second the notion that character aren't just functions. When the first Smash Bros was announced, I doubt the main selling point was "wow I can't wait to use Mario's side-B against Link's arrows", it was "wow I can't wait for Mario to fight Link". The best part of Smash is playing AS your favorite characters, and sometimes their movesets are derivative. Personally I really want Funky Kong to be an echo of DK--that would make me so happy, but at the end of the day it's the same moveset, right? It's just the concept of playing as a character I love that appeals to me. It doesn't matter that he plays the same.
 
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I second the notion that character aren't just functions. When the first Smash Bros was announced, I doubt the main selling point was "wow I can't wait to use Mario's side-B against Link's arrows", it was "wow I can't wait for Mario to fight Link". The best part of Smash is playing AS your favorite characters, and sometimes their movesets are derivative. Personally I really want Funky Kong to be an echo of DK--that would make me so happy, but at the end of the day it's the same moveset, right? It's just the concept of playing as a character I love that appeals to me. It doesn't matter that he plays the same.
That's the thing crossovers have to balance; the casual audience is mostly in it for the characters.

I completely sympathize with it from a development perspective and it makes perfect sense outside of crossovers, at least.
 

Sabertooth

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That's a really good question but it's probably just different people complaining. It's really a completely different issue--some folks want Ganondorf to act more like himself, and other folks think there are two many swordfighters in the game already. There's probably not too much overlap in these groups, and if there is, it's more of a principle with Ganondorf really than anything actually gameplay-related.
 
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Because:
-Some use the series as a scapegoat for their anger.
-Think that an imaginary criteria of having the weapon triangle represented is a must.
-The "All of them use swords, we have no axe or spear user" argument, this is really not Sakurai's fault but rather IS's fault for not making more lords whose weapon isn't a sword.
-"Has more characters than Zelda" , blame Sakurai and Nintendo for not adding more LoZ characters as they are the ones who decide who gets in and who doesn't.
 
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Arthur97

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Because:
-Some use the series as a scapegoat for their anger.
-Think that an imaginary criteria of having the weapon triangle represented is a must.
-The "All of them use swords, we have no axe or spear user" argument, this is really not Sakurai's fault but rather IS's fault for not making more lords whose weapon isn't a sword.
-"Has more characters than Zelda" , blame Sakurai and Nintendo for not adding more LoZ characters as they are the ones who decide who gets in and who doesn't.
Yeah, the weapon triangle seems over emphasized sometimes. With the exception of Heroes, it just doesn't seem that important in the actual games.
 
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