Hot/Cold Marth Theory, (Error Magin ppl! Read OP)

[phi1ny3]

All of you bring up great points attempting address the fact how Marth is of a neutral state.

Is it his matchups? Im not so sure.

Is it character design? Maybe.

MK>Marth? Not all the time.

This is why I said theory, because its just a suggestion as to why Marth is just frustrating/awesome at the same time. I believe it's people going on "tilt" as the reason why Marth is the way he is.

Maybe it's the scrubs who rank with him not so well?
I do agree with Kirby, Peach, and Olimar being matchups that weren't quite accurate. They are in character design actually pretty tricky for marth to do (although Peach I'm slightly saying has justification, due to our good options).
Edit: Ugh, laggy computer double post johns.

 

[Steel]

peach? wtf? rofl. if anything i feel we overrated the match up (as in, its too close)

 

[AndrewCarlson]

While I can see Olimar being closer to even, I think that Wario and Kirby are solid advantages for Marth due to their range issue and inability to deal with Marth's pressuring.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I agree with the OP. I constantly lose when I'm feeling upset/angry. However I still play MTG competitively and I don't see how you can compare that to playing Poker lol. I can't think of a time when I played poorly on tilt, only when I'm tired lol. When people get frustrated in Poker this does happen, though. TCGs dont really have that 'tilt' feeling

 

[Remzi]

Plasma Whip, Tazer Shot and DSmash are rather easy to get around. All it requires is for you to properly spot dodge, shield or perfect shield, and the strategy is essentially nullified. It's especially easy to do this because of the large start up time Plasma Whip has, and the time it takes for Tazer Shot to reach you. Getting in close is easier than you think. Even if they use these as retreating options, eventually they will run out of stage to space with.

I never mentioned Plasma whip, its not a great move and you can power shield it on reaction. All three moves you mentioned are excellent punishers, though. And like i said, when you do get in, she still has tons of options. She has quick tilts with good range, amazing punishing ability, a great combo character (and Marth cant safely DS), and a strong defensive game to boot.

And her OoS options are terrible by the way, I don't know exactly what you know about ZSS. Her Jab isn't the best either. She's vulnerable as soon as she executes it unless her opponent is aerial because you can pop a shield right in the middle of the combo after the second jab. It's rather unfortunate. Utilt is likely her best OoS option, and Flip Jump is alright for retreats.

Her tilts and jabs are more than viable out of shield to start. And once you are hit she can combo vertically quite well. She can also use aerials OoS considering they come out very quickly. All you did was tell me why jab wouldnt work (which im unsure of) and listed two viable OoS options. You gave me no indication as to why she has a poor OoS game.

Comments again in orange.

Junk: Thanks for telling me my opinion sucks without giving any reason as to why. You're definitely helping.

 

[DJMirror]

Oh im not HAVOKK

im Havok with one K.

Get that straight.

lol the other havok lives in socal too, im gonna name match him

I'll be there to record so i post it up on youtube...dont lose the name mm like your bro did for the name Kaos

 

[**Havok**]

peach? wtf? rofl. if anything i feel we overrated the match up (as in, its too close)

I have videos of a good peach from SoCal.

Cali has 3 Peaches that stand out:
Edrees
Bone
Sky

All of them good and I'll have an analysis of the matchup up maybe later on today.

Peach can pressure and corner Marth, it's annoying. I'll explain later.

While I can see Olimar being closer to even, I think that Wario and Kirby are solid advantages for Marth due to their range issue and inability to deal with Marth's pressuring.

Can't deal with pressuring?

Behold Kirby Uber spacing.

I didn't say camping, I said spacing. Either you're in outside of Marth's sword range or inside, Kirby does well in either one. Again ill try and have an explanation up soon.

MikeHAZE played the match how it should be played, if he approaches too reckless, that's a free throw (free %10 plus vulnerability in the air), forget about blind pressure on Kirby. And the match ended with kirby appropriately punishing Mike. The match is really precise and all about spacing. These are some of SoCal's finest, people, no and's but's and if's about it. (Old match btw, they both got better)

Wario is of the same nature with a few differences. His up air ***** Marth, his bite ***** shield options (no up-B outta shield here kiddos), has invincibility frames on his fsmash, a Fart that kills, awesome recovery and awesome mobility to match Marth's (if not better). And since he has such a great mobility, he can't get grabbed. It's annoying.

Example: (count the number of times THIS wario was grabbed)
Wario Video

That's basically what a Wario looks like, SoCal has had 2 amazing Wario's Futile (who quit) and Fiction who's on Fing Fire. That G&W wasn't bad either.

I agree with the OP. I constantly lose when I'm feeling upset/angry. However I still play MTG competitively and I don't see how you can compare that to playing Poker lol. I can't think of a time when I played poorly on tilt, only when I'm tired lol. When people get frustrated in Poker this does happen, though. TCGs dont really have that 'tilt' feeling

Well i played in Pro Tour London 05', traveled around the states for a few Grand Prixs and the feeling i get with playing Marth at the end of a regional is the same feeling I get attempting to play flawlessly, rock bottom errors in a 8-9 Round day Grand Prix for Magic. It's draining. Just saying.

 

[Steel]

and nikok got a first hand look at good marths at cot4 and his opinion really changed on the match up from what i can tell. before he said he would gladly mm any marth, now he hates the match up.

 

[**Havok**]

Well we do have several Good Marth's in SoCal (HAZE, Bardul, BOA) (there's ONE marth that I know of in NorCal = ZEX) that play with the Good Cali Peaches (lol).

 

[Niko_K]

and nikok got a first hand look at good marths at cot4 and his opinion really changed on the match up from what i can tell. before he said he would gladly mm any marth, now he hates the match up.

That it did, though I can't say I still don't know how to handle the match up. With a bit more practice and studying I'll be able to take out most of the marths besides Neo

 

[DJMirror]

Well we do have several Good Marth's in SoCal (HAZE, Bardul, BOA) (there's ONE marth that I know of in NorCal = ZEX) that play with the Good Cali Peaches (lol).

you can't count edress anymore since he stop playing recently =/

 

[Pierce7d]

I am Pierce7d and I approve of this message.

 

[BBoyindo]

i Am Pierce7d And I Approve Of This Message.

=)

10=)
11=)

 

[**Havok**]

I am Pierce7d and I approve of this message.

I suppose.

 

[JoeJenkins]

This Hot/Cold theory is definitely true. I find myself playing totally depending on how I react to winning and losing. I guess i needed someone to just remind me about keeping my cool. Ty so much.

 

[Roxas M]

what the hell? why did you revive this YEAR OLD thread?

but maybe it should be reminded to people that haven't read it (like me).

 

[etecoon]

MK can Dsmash repeatedly safely. Snake can ftilt pretty safely. d3 can spot dodge over and over to a certain extent.

this thread was necro'd from 2009 but it reads like something that was necro'd from 2008 -_-

 

[**Havok**]

this thread was necro'd from 2009 but it reads like something that was necro'd from 2008 -_-

Yet people continue to play like it's 2008

 

[vicious1990]

very good read never thought of it that way.

 

[Darxmarth23]

this thread was necro'd from 2009 but it reads like something that was necro'd from 2008 -_-

yeah but we like it

sometimes i keep this in mind when i play

and even though i am losing at the time, knowing that i need to control my reaction to losing and winning helps my game

 

[∫unk]

how much things have changed

and how some things are still the same

 

[P. O. F.]

The opening post is sooooo true. When I am in the mood to play Brawl and be super patient I **** like it's my job and I'm dead on.

When I don't care or i'm just playing because someone else wants to, my Marth is trash.

 

[Pierce7d]

My stamina seems to have overcome this problem. I guess two years of constant training pays off. I remember when you wrote this Havok.

 

[Albert.]

I wish I was as good at talking-myself-up as pierce is!

 

[Crackle]

Stock up on Junk, Marth v D3. If he takes my stock then, he'll take the subsequent stock.
I NEED TO LEARN TO FOCUS.

 

[makoforce]

dont lose faith in marth he is still a GREAT character and can overwhelm alot of people he has some error margin probably just the smallest. Luigi on the other hand may be in trouble.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Good **** Havok

 

[Remzi]

Havok, I'm studying the **** out of your match vs Candy just so you know

 

[PEACE7]

Wow Good Stuff here Marth along with a Emotionally stable person=****.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Read this post and this is so true for Marth and I honestly believe this is more true for Sheik.

Havok, would you mind if I eventually steal this and bring it to the Sheik boards?

 

[**Havok**]

Thanks guys

Read this post and this is so true for Marth and I honestly believe this is more true for Sheik.

Havok, would you mind if I eventually steal this and bring it to the Sheik boards?

go for it

 

[VibeSlyph]

One thing I like about Marth, is Marth frustrates a lot of people. He has like a natural mindset advantage, so long the user isn't having mindset problems himself.
It's kind of why a bad Marth like me can pull off a win against a good player here and there. c:

 

[xxmoosexx]

This started out as a Hot/Cold theory and has progressed into how to prevent emotional instability. Now as we have learned from the theory and used it a new branch has come. The Error Margin of Marth.

I think that honestly feeling like poop relates to playing like poop universally. But this Error Margin thing has some real potential.

Marth's flawless play has more potential and out-does other characters flawless play.
Marth has answers to every situation unless he's off the edge. Most characters just have to accept the fact that Marth's fair shuts down any strategy they have(Just an example). Personally I think Mario and Peach have made match ups to react to Marth's Fair.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth beats Mario 80-20. Peach has options though.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Meh. I was just trying to give some examples that I thought were close enough.

All my peach friends think that Peach gets gangbanged by marth and tried to use some Peach pro's post about it in their argument.

Now that I re-read it my post kinda comes out wrong. Erg.

 

[xxmoosexx]

GOSH DANG IT. ANOTHER DOUBLE POST.

NO more tabbed browsing

 

[VibeSlyph]

Mario is bottom on my personal tier list.

Peach sucks too, though.

 

[kalem333]

I know exactly what you mean. In melee, Marth was just the right feel. I unlocked this weird "Japanese only" swordsman, and I knew he was the character for me. He was so graceful and emotionally appealing that I stepped up my game from the casual "funk" and started beating my friends without a single death by learning to use spot dodging(admittedly, my favorite thing to do...) and jugling like no ones business. When Brawl came out and he was so...different, I was outraged. Now I appreciate the change, because Its a whole new challenge, and The old feel comes back when I'm in the zone and focused on the goal at hand:winning. He is my "serious business" character lol.

 

[**Havok**]

Changed the OP a little. From the time I wrote that and now, I feel like Marth has been rising up in ranks. I think he has much more potential.

 

[OhMySailboat]

I feel like you do anything better when you're "in the zone."