Hey guys, use Up-B. All the time. UPDATED WITH FORWARD AIR!

[fromundaman]

Heh, that's true, especially if you FF it at just the right time so you get the last aerial hit as well as the landing one. Now that I think about it, I couldn't even say when you have to do it, but I must know it subconsciously since I do that all the time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The real purpose of the landing hit is to start combos. It actually is REALLY REALLY LEGIT for starting combos. On pretty much every character, you can guarantee a combo into D-smash from landing hitbox of D-air. Go see for yourself in training mode. D-air -> D-smash registers consecutive hits on all but the very heaviest characters (who essentially get comboed anyway since they lack an escape option).

The only reason why it isn't done more is partly because whiffing the landing hit in close range is kinda unsafe. Furthermore it's actually retardedly tricky to connect because in order to make it combo, it has to be used on an aerial opponent. Which means on a grounded opponent, you must first land a few hits of D-air's aerial hitboxes before going into the land hitbox.

Not something you want to rely on, but it's a wicked surprise tactic.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Dair has lots of shenanigans, lots of them. But I think I will do something that has even more shenanigans. Maybe some gimmicky cape or fludd stuff. Or Up-B again. Fsmash is pretty shenanigan too.

Spoiler

But probably Utaunt

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... I usually use Dair OoS or on shields (with the landing hit as shieldpoke>Ftilt>sometimes that backwards sliding fireball, but I didn't know Dsmash connected.).

Dair can actually be a funny way to gimp too, as long as you don't hit with the last hit.



Xero, if Dair has so many shenanigans, than maybe do that. It means I definitely am missing some. FLUDD could be a good one too, since I rarely see it effectively used (I use FLUDD a lot myself, especially vs people who SH a lot, since it will put them in the air in a position where I can pressure their landing.), as well as Fsmash.

 

[Veggi]

Sh dair someone's shield-->jump away/uair-->lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

Xero, for the most part I beat you to F-smash shenanigans in at least two topics which I created. If there is one shenanigan Mario users absolutely have to be good at, it's knowing where to use F-smash.

But as for D-air, let me just say every time I see a Mario user force a U-air juggle on an obvious airdodge or someone shielding on a platform, it makes me cry.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know if this really belongs in this topic but Mario's cross-up Nair on shield is super gay.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

A2 I don't think you understand just how shenanigan I am with Fsmash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I beg to differ, my F-smash shenanigans are better than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak#t=0m46s

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Nope. Fsmash shenanigan MM. Sexiest/most shenanigan Fsmash kills wins.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll take you up on it if I somehow meet you in person. It's pretty much either going to end in a draw or in me winning. I should warn you that I'm extremely resistant to shenanigans. It's half the reason why I now have made Brinstar my favorite counterpick stage.

 

[Inferno3044]

I beg to differ, my F-smash shenanigans are better than yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b0JbRB-Sak#t=0m46s

It only hit because the Wario failed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not unlike any other shenanigans that exist. They only work when people fail.

 

[fromundaman]

Not unlike any other shenanigans that exist. They only work when people fail.

I beg to differ. Kirby shenanigans are so numerous, and depending on the character, easy to land (For example, Fthrow>inhale>walk-offstage>Footstool is guaranteed on Wolf at low %s) that it really doesn't matter if the other player fails. There's a couple stage specific ones that certain characters can't easily get around (and at some %s not at all) either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is a difference between "shenanigans" and "tools". What you're describing probably isn't a shenanigan, but rather a matchup specific tool. Although landing the swallow in the first place can be called a shenanigan, since that usually requires a mistake.

Shenanigans are tricks that pretty much are only supposed to work when someone doesn't know about them or forgets to play around them. Tools however are options and strategies that fundamentally make the bread and butter of matchups.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

. . .
Today, I tried to kill someone with a unsweetspoted FORWARD AIIIIIR, but they DI'd right into the sweetspot and was spiked into the stage. Then they teched it and upsmashed me in the nose

 

[Omari]

Got to love & respect how everyone puts in work for a bad recovery to make it seem like total awesome-sauce... Honestly loved the Super Jump Punch (SJP) guide XeroXen, very hilarious/legit. +6 style/sexy points for you sir. May I add another important part of SJP? Don't forget about the free resets because similar to Mario's d-air, SJP can reset damage given. I believe you all already know about the system so I won't talk too much about that. Now even though SJP is a reckless anti-air, it does favor a long term reward. Here me out...IMO, SJP is the second best AA only because of the short term risk of either whiffing (messing up which XeroXen explained you shouldn't), low knock-back (IMO & if hits wrong) & free punishes (helpless falling Mario?). High risk, low reward? Short term, yes. For killing power, as we all know...Mario has poor killing potential (yes, damn near most of the time I'd like to think Mario's the best character in brawl too but lets face facts...he's *** in SSBB Personally, I feel Nintendo places him as the top tier in every other game so can you really argue about his brawl standing?) Anyway, four of the six hits do 1% damage so that would be like refreshing four free airs (exactly like trading 1% (a $1) or 10-13% (for free money, what?)...how can you go wrong? Maybe more u-air stringing perhaps? =). High risk, low reward? Long term, no.

*Last but not least...we got an amen but can I get a pling, pling-pling, pling? Free uppercuts everyday!

 

[A2ZOMG]

You gotta realize, Falco's Shine is much like Mario's Up-B. Great range, RIDICULOUS startup, and TERRIBLE ending lag. Doesn't stop it from being an awesome move. You can't just spam it, but there's a lot of moments where the moves are good to throw out just because of the range and speed.

 

[Omari]

You gotta realize, Falco's Shine is much like Mario's Up-B. Great range, RIDICULOUS startup, and TERRIBLE ending lag. Doesn't stop it from being an awesome move. You can't just spam it, but there's a lot of moments where the moves are good to throw out just because of the range and speed.

*Not arguing, just explaining what was already mentioned.

Never said SJP wasn't an awesome move, said its a bad recovery (& IMO regarding recovering, Mario mains shouldn't aim directly for the ledge when recovering. They should give themselves enough space to either grab the ledge or land on stage.) mainly for returning to the stage. In general (discarding recovering) SJP is a pretty good special move all-round. Obviously when you SJP you will get punished for stupidity. Personally, one of my favorite reasons to use SJP is to piss people off (makes them most likely go aggro...& since Mario's a perfect counter for aggro brawlers...well...yeah, you pretty much know what's gonna happen next). They know they hate the sound effects of Mario's coins, but they don't know we love the sound effects of Mario's coins. As for your last comment, I agree 100%. Thanks.

 

[Inferno3044]

I agree with Omari. It's good for just about everything except what it's actually meant to be lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

SJP is actually a really awesome recovery move. Just a lot of Mario players implement it offstage incorrectly. It starts up faster than reaction time, and it has a threat of killing via stagespike. Combined with Cape Stalling, you have a pretty solid recovery strategy.

 

[Matador]

I was playing someone the other day that was consistently SDI-ing out of my upB OOS.

Was I doing it wrong?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Depends, you have two options to fix that. You can try angling Up-B in the direction they are SDIing, or you can do the reverse Up-B which only does 5% but usually is safe on hit.

Also, learning how to angle Up-B to land on the top platform of BF is fun and situationally useful.

 

[Omari]

SJP is actually a really awesome recovery move. Just a lot of Mario players implement it offstage incorrectly. It starts up faster than reaction time, and it has a threat of killing via stagespike. Combined with Cape Stalling, you have a pretty solid recovery strategy.

1. Enlighten me.
2. How do Mario players implement it offstage wrong? Maybe there's something we don't know. Maybe there's something you're hiding hm?
3. Stage-spike depends on the stage & the character. Stages like BF, SV, FD, Lylat, HB, etc are good examples of SJP being stage-spikable (IDK new word). Reason Mario's able to spike with SJP is because of the ledge being angled. Straight ledges like YI, First area on CS, etc...don't help Mario as much with stage-spiking. Also, lets take into account the opponent's recovery. DK's SK (Spinning-Kong) for example. DK gets SS'd by Mario at any percent then there's nothing he can do (unless he accurately times a tech). Other than that, vertically-wise? He already died. Lets put a character in the same scenario with +1 mid air jump. IDK lets say Pit, Mario baits Pit at a ledge for a free SJP Stage-spike & Pit not only has multiple mid air jumps but a pretty decent recovery to assist him. Even if he didn't have any mid air jumps left, he can still fly to the other side, fly around Mario (easy), attack Mario from ledge hogging, etc...just when you say, the threat of killing...?...seems kind of vague to me.
4. Cape stalling IMO is extremely useful regarding Mario recovering so I agree. Cape stalling at a ledge is a somewhat different story but still a very useful skill/tactic.
5. Any type of new info is much appreciated unless I'm already aware, thanks A2GOMG.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main thing I find myself trying to tell Mario users to fix in their recovery is to save Cape for baiting edgehogs.

I cannot stress how important this is for Mario's recovery. Cape does NOT get you extra distance in your recovery for the most part. What it's actually for is stalling out edgehog attempts. This allows you to safely up-B to the ledge as your opponent is generally forced to get up to avoid getting hit by Up-B. This part of Mario's recovery is REALLY awesome. The option of stalling and then moving to a fast recovery option.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario's recovery game is decent at best. Sure he has tricks like cape, FLUDD, and fireballs but that doesn't change the fact that his recovery has little to no diversity. MK definitely has the best recovery in the game when it comes to diversity. ALL of his special moves can be used as an option to recover. Not only that, but you have many options such as gliding under the stage, grabbing the ledge, and landing on stage with basically each of his special moves. Each can be used in different situations and a proper mixup will make MK very tricky to punish. Mario basically, if using UpB, has to grab the ledge. Unless you hit them with it, having the landing lag from upB is an easy punish/stock.

 

[Omari]

The main thing I find myself trying to tell Mario users to fix in their recovery is to save Cape for baiting edgehogs.

I cannot stress how important this is for Mario's recovery. Cape does NOT get you extra distance in your recovery for the most part. What it's actually for is stalling out edgehog attempts. This allows you to safely up-B to the ledge as your opponent is generally forced to get up to avoid getting hit by Up-B. This part of Mario's recovery is REALLY awesome. The option of stalling and then moving to a fast recovery option.

Agree 100%.

One of the many ways how Mario's cape can be used effectively. Recommend all Mario mains to re-read that info above at least twice. Here's the fun part of brawl (solving active puzzles), let's discuss Mario's DI-ing & SDI-ing ability. We can all agree that Mario dies f-airly early, correct? When I first seen my Donkey Kong (DK) idols like Will, Dr. G, Cable, etc play at offline events...the percentage before they died always blew my mind. DK living beyond +225% is ridiculous IMO when they are capable of dying around +150%. How they weren't dying was my main focus at my first few tournaments. Yes, momentum canceling (b-air>u-special (SK)) is the main reason DK is able to live at sudden death percents. Using this concept lead me to think about how Mario can live beyond +110%. When in terms of SDI, u-air is agreed to be your best bet regarding it being the fastest air. Does it cancel momentum better than Mario's d-air is my question?

IMO, I believe it does from personal experience from me living longer. Using d-air for SDI become instinct at high percents for me because Mario's less likely to die opposed to his u-air. Another problem I had was the instant fast fall when recovering back to the stage from d-airing (using the C-Stick). This usually lead to me simply getting edge-hogged early on. Using the same concept as DK, I figured what if you can d-air>cape momentum cancel for Mario since his cape has momentum uses?

Airborne Cape:
1. 1Cape=slight vertical boost
2. 2Capes=stays in place (Didn't realize how crucial this was until recently)
3. 3Capes=sinks

Here's my key key to lasting longer as Mario on any stage. When you d-air after being hit at a high percent, you're going to fast fall if you tap down on your control stick+your attack button (whatever that may be). You'll also fast fall if you C-Stick down after being hit after a high percent. How do can I cancel the fast fall? You can either lightly tilt down on your control+your attack button (whatever that may be) or My suggestion: You can d-air>cape (either direction heavily depending on the situation may it be your opponent, the stage choice, whether or whether not you have a mid air jump, etc.) to save yourself.

Note: Did anyone notice all characters (not only Mario)in brawl fall differently when they're mid air jump-less (IDK more new words)?

IMO, cape would be the best follow-up because cape not only momentum cancels, but cancels out the fast fall from the two options explained earlier. Assuming all of you save your mid air jumps when needed, you'll have multiple options all your disposal for getting (or fighting) to the stage. Some recovery tools are another cape stall as A2ZOMG said to bait edge-hogs, b-air (depending on which way you caped) to space back to safety, fire ball (which can be used with a reckless f-air for a combo spike or with another air for obvious other reasons (gimp?)), F.L.U.D.D. (to either push yourself back to the stage or for aggro opponents being greedy & forcing kills (usually MKs because MK's gimping-game>>Mario's sadly ), reckless f-airs for effective trades, n-airs for beating out predictably reckless u-specials (does MK or Marth come to mind?), etc.

Note: If you're holding down on your control stick during an airborne cape, you won't fast fall (also works for using the C-Stick) when you use F.L.U.D.D. (pretty much anything that has to do with down...sort of like Plat-Form Canceling (PFC) which is why you're able to d-air PFC, F.L.U.D.D. PFC, etc

Long story short (or long), I'm testing (during spare time or whenever at a tournament) the best way to DI+SDI as Mario so I'll be able to live +180% constantly. Currently, I'm able to live to around +170% but I'm dedicated to improve Mario as a character in brawl & as a character in general.

IMO, at high percentages...d-air>cape>F.L.U.D.D.(free fall) is the safe way to go. Any type of feedback is appreciated whether negative, neutral, positive, etc...I'm just wondering if u-air>cape works better & what about b-air?

Thank you for your time Mario boards (mains)!

 

[Coolwhip]

Look out A2Z. Omari is looking forward to take your place as "Mario Researcher"

 

[Inferno3044]

DK is just a lot better at recovering then Mario. Although his vertical recovery is bad, it has amazing horizontal distance. That gives him a flaw of a footstool/spike ends him early but getting his jump clipped isn't a problem unlike Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah DK isn't better at recovering. Generally it's really easy for most of the cast to actually punish his recovery not just due to how extremely linear it is, but especially since he has some of the worst edge options in the game by far especially after his damage exceeds 100%. Probably the single most common thing people fail at when they don't know the DK matchup is how to edgeguard him.

 

[Matador]

Gotta agree with A2Z here. Being that one of the things I pride myself in as a Mario main is keeping my opponent on the ledge...

I must say...DK is pretty limited on the ledge compared to other characters. He can stall well, but fireballs and aerials will keep him on the ledge awhile if you read properly.

 

[Omari]

Love that you all are helping each other but I'm talking about not dying as Mario. I'm not asking how to recover or edge-guard (against Donkey Kong (DK) or any other character). My Question: My main concern is (other than my previous post) is how to DI+SDI as Mario without using your mid air jump, which ?-air>cape is best & why?) & possibly better baiting options? IMO, my previous post summed this area up pretty well but there's always room for improvement which is why am asking for help.

Regarding DK: IMO, Mario>DK ledge options (pretty self explanatory) & DK>Mario Recovery move. Lets look at this area a little more in dept, shall we?

Recovery-wise: Donkey Kong's (DK) Spinning Kong (SK) versus Mario's Super Jump Punch (SJP).

Shield Pressure: DK
Anti-air: Mario
Recovery Distance: DK (even though it has poor vertical distance, SK is recoverable on any stage at a certain vertical height). Not to forget that on stages like Frigate, DK doesn't have to grab a ledge when pressured to recover safely as where Mario does. Lets not also forget the on the right side of FG, the ledge cannot be grabbed.
Landing Lag: Mario (less lag than DK which makes punishing Mario more difficult)
Up Special Cancel: DK (Stages like Battle-Field, DK is unlimited in recovery options with a creative mindset. DK's capable of maneuvering anywhere around BF.)
Super Armor/Invincibility: DK (Although Mario has invincibility frames during SJP (3-6), DK can withstand most devastating moves in the game without flinching.)
Safe on Whiff: DK (DK's able to control himself during his up special (SK) but whiffing with Mario can cost you either a free punish, bad position or gimp (stock).) Although Mario can also move during his up special (SJP), he's not safe on whiff. If he does whiff, his only option (which makes him limited) is to fake-out his opponent(s).
Shenanigans: Mario (Read XeroXen's Guide: Recommended!)

DK wins 5-3.

 

[Matador]

If DK does his upB high enough, it auto-cancels laglessly when he lands.

Also, does his upB have invincibility frames too?

 

[Excellence]

No. Super Armor frames during the initial start-up. If you're like me and have frame-by-frame vision then you'll look for him to put his arms up just as he's about to start spinning. Just before that and a tiny bit after that are his super armor frames.

 

[Matador]

Thanks, Excellence.

How does DK fair against D3's bair when recovering? Only reason it doesnt completely shut us down is the invincibility on our upB. With good timing and DI, it's hard for an attack like that to gimp Mario.

 

[boss8]

i find DK pretty fun to fight/combo....its mostly jus juggles and hard reads.....

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm with Boss. DK is fun to fight. One of my favorite MUs for no reason. I thought of picking up DK because of Cable and Will, but I never really went through with it. I use DK vs. casuals though.

 

[Omari]

Thanks, Excellence.

How does DK fair against D3's bair when recovering? Only reason it doesnt completely shut us down is the invincibility on our upB. With good timing and DI, it's hard for an attack like that to gimp Mario.

Matador, did you mean fair or f-air? Not sure what you meant so I'll answer both of your questions.

Donkey Kong (DK) fairs against King DeDeDe's (D3's) b-air by his Spinning Kong (SK) having super armor & D3 having to tip his b-air in order to hit. Generally speaking, you want to save your mid air jump until you really need it. Example: D3 b-airs you offstage at a high percent (150%), you DI & prevent yourself from being killed. If you know you can recover without using your mid air jump, then it would be better to SK to the ledge or stage. If D3 hits you airborne (attempting to gimp), then you'll still have your mid air jump.

Regarding Mario's Super Jump Punch (SJP), I agree 100%.

Important Question: Does anyone know how to jab or tilt (up tilt, front tilt (f-tilt) or down tilt (d-tilt) Out of Shield (OoS) without releasing their shield? Thanks.

Helpful information: You can save time by jumping OoS instead of releasing your shield (other characters too).

Nintendo Game Cube Controller: Regarding Mario, I recommend leaving jump to X & changing Z (grab=default) to special. IMO, setting Z to special becomes useful for shooting fire balls faster when jumping, pivot specials & F.L.U.D.D. hopping (Canceling, breaking or even baiting). This saves you time because your index & thumb are next to each other opposed to you having to quickly alternate between pressing X & B.

How to SJP, up smash & air OoS without releasing your shield: From the information above, it'll be simpler to OoS your opponent(s) for silly mistakes (whiffs). Hold shield (angled up)>Jump>SJP immediately (tapping X (jump) then Z (special)) to up special OoS without releasing your shield. IMO, SJP is Mario's best OoS because it covers both sides. Meaning, no matter which side your opponent attacks you from, the frames for SJP will remain the same...unlike up smash.

You can Up Smash (u-smash) OoS without releasing your shield by holding shield (angled up)>jump>u-smash (sliding your thumb (bone) from X (jump) to A (attack). IMO, u-smash is Mario's second best OoS because of the low percent setups (example: u-smash OoS (or in general)>pivot grab>u-throw>bait>whatever you want...), killing power (kills most of the cast around +135%) & baiting (example: F.L.U.D.D.>Shield>Jump>Up Smash>whatever you want...).

Airing OoS without releasing your shield involves canceling your shield with jump (as explained earlier). N-air is best suited as a GTFB (Get The **** Back) move. U-air is best suited as a counter to campers (example: MK, D3, etc d-air camping you). B-air is best suited as a spacing/stringing/juggling/combos (Not combos...combos are a series of consecutive hits. Strings (Chains) are just a series of hits. People usually get these two terms mixed up.) IMO, Mario's d-air & f-air aren't really useful OoS options. D-air can lead to combos, strings or juggles but it is not only more difficult to pull off...but has a low range. F-air? ......No comment.

I'd appreciate if anyone could also help me with f-smashing & d-smashing OoS without releasing your shield. I'm testing different ways during my spare time, but I haven't come to a conclusion yet.

Thanks for your time Mario Boards (members).

 

[Matador]

Sorry, I meant fair, not forward air.

Much obliged, that makes sense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You can cancel the shield drop lag with the jump input [this includes Usmash]. You can use all aerials, upB and usmash without having to drop your shield. The startup for aerials OoS is jump input lag + startup lag of the move.