Help Save A Demon From Temptation!

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Guys, I have reached an impass. And I require assistance. Please don't just flame me, or put unbacked up information. I could really use some help.

I decided a while ago to main Lucario, and I've got to say I think I've improved myself considerably since going with the Aura Pokemon. I'm pretty sure that if I worked hard enough, there would be few people that could stop me. But it would be stupid to think I could go all the way to the top and become a champion with just Lucario. So, I began a quest to find my secondary.

According to the Lucario boards, as well as the other boards that I've searched, if I work my you-know-what off, the only people I'd not be able to beat would be masters of Marth, Olimar, and Game&Watch. So I thought "Hey, just pick someone who can defeat the 3 of them, and I'd be golden as long as I trained him." So I began looking through the boards, as well as experimenting with my friends to see who can defeat all three fighters.

But HERE is where my problem is. The consensus for all of my work and research is this accursed fact that I do NOT wish to yield to: MetaKnight is the only person who can go even or better against those 3 fighters. I already know that I can defeat pretty much anyone else using Lucario, but Metaknight would end up taking over against those 3 players, should Lucario lose the first match. Sounds simple enough. But despite me being better with Lucario, I really don't want to use Metaknight as my Liuetenant, because of his potential to usurp my captain, Lucario. (I like the Military, sue me ) If I get into the compeditive scene and can't control myself, I might begin to be like the rest of the people who pick up Metaknight just to not lose, and end up shaming Metaknight, Brawl, and the entire community. And I really don't want that to happen. I know I'm better with Lucario (I'm not much of a combo freak, plus he just naturally rolls with me), but the temptation is still there.

So I wish to ask the community for help. I naturally like Metaknight because of my days playing the Kirby Games, and he is one of my 13 favorite characters. But I don't want him to become my crutch, less he eventually assimilate me into his MetaKnight army. Can anyone help me find ANY OTHER CHARACTER who can go Even or Better against Marth, Olimar and Game&Watch? I'm willing to work my butt off to learn them (except for Captain Falcon. The rapist scares me. Falcon dive should be illegal). I just need to know who I should use for those 3 fights.

And if worse comes to worse, can anyone help me learn techniques that would allow me to not succum to the n00bness of becoming Metaknight's servant? He's a good character, possibly the best this game has, but that's not why I like using him. And I don't want to be labeled (or become) one of the people that shame him by using him because they are scared of losing and can't learn to play on their own.

Please help me. I really could use the guidance. I beg of you.

 

[Mashour2]

You should use FALCONZ!!!

Just kidding, but you shouldn't have shame for using metaknight, after all. Tiers are for queers.

 

[1048576]

Use Metaknight. Think of it this way: if enough people become like you, then he'll get banned for overcentralizing the metagame. You'd like that, right?

 

[ExCeL 52]

Dont use MetaKnight
Just find a way to beat those three characters.
(or get ***** up the booty by them)

 

[Scott!]

If you just want a character that goes even or better with Marth, G&W, and Olimar, and you have some moral thing keeping you away from MK, then play Marth himself. The Marth boards list these matchups as even against Marth (of course), and 60:40 for the other two.

 

[Scinn]

spam with lucario LOL it be a spamcario XD just kiddin me I also main Lucario and he is right marth and olimar are hard for lucario to beat bu mgw all you have to do is spam the f smash LOL but i stoped that and now your secondary you shuld pick olimar ir ike ike is very good agains mgw but will die against the olimar against olimar a good choice would be I think falco or someone else olimar is my one weakness i can never seem to beat him

 

[ndayday]

Maybe if you picked up two characters besides Lucario, you wouldn't have to use MetaKnight.

Either that or really try hard to learn the match-up between Lucario and Marth, Olimar, and G&W.

 

[Noa.]

Scott! is right. Picking up Marth would be better than picking MK in your situation. Never thought to main the characters themselves that your worried about, huh.

Still, Marth is your best choice if you don't want to use MK.

 

[Yuna]

Use Metaknight. Think of it this way: if enough people become like you, then he'll get banned for overcentralizing the metagame. You'd like that, right?

No, he wouldn't. Only by the Scrubbiest of regions.

 

[ExCeL 52]

spam with lucario LOL it be a spamcario XD just kiddin me I also main Lucario and he is right marth and olimar are hard for lucario to beat bu mgw all you have to do is spam the f smash LOL but i stoped that and now your secondary you shuld pick olimar ir ike ike is very good agains mgw but will die against the olimar against olimar a good choice would be I think falco or someone else olimar is my one weakness i can never seem to beat him

Or he could just use Llamacario, 100-0 matchup against everyone on the cast except MetaKnight 90-10 Llamacario's favor.

Check it out on the Peach Matchup thread.

 

[BentoBox]

Step it up.

 

[Flamingo]

Camp moar vs. those characters.

Aura camping is gay but effective.

 

[J4pu]

Snake > Marth and GW
don't know about Olimar, if snake is really bad against Olimar you could pick up a tertiary?

 

[DKKountry]

I agree that Marth would be your best bet.

 

[POKE40]

If you master the 3 obstacles: Mr. Game and Watch, Olimar, and Marth, you would be able to get a very large understanding on what you can expect when you face them with Lucario perrsonaly.

For certain for Mr. Game and Watch, you can use Snake. Then again Mr. Game and Watch is awesome. lol, you would know why.

 

[_Phloat_]

Snake > Marth and GW
don't know about Olimar, if snake is really bad against Olimar you could pick up a tertiary?

That is how I feel too. Snake is great against GaW, good against Marth, and IDK about olimar but you can probably get a win off a dumb CP and Lucario...

 

[Darxmarth23]

Be a character with a similar playstyle as lucario. Look for moves that you enjoy using with lucario, or moves that are effective against your typical opponent. Then try to find some similarities in other characters that also give you the same feel you had earlier. Then if you want you can switch back.

Just don't be metaknight. My sig will tell you why.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Are you basing those three characters just off of what you've heard?

Because I'd like to know who told you Lucario can't beat Olimar.

 

[•Col•]

Wtf? Lucario has one of the best matchup charts in the game... Well, maybe not, but.... He certainly doesn't get completely ***** by anyone either...

Last I checked, Marth was his worst matchup, and it was only slightly in his favor. Lucario's probably one of the better MK fighters (not a counter by any means, but there's only a slight disadvantage)... And Olimar... I have no idea. I dunno if they found something that ***** Lucario, but I'm doubting it...

There are definately "unwinnable" matchups at the highest level of play. The ones listed above aren't any of them.

If you really worry about the matchups... then just drop Lucario altogether, and go all MK. All characters are going to have bad matchups, so you might as well just go MK if you're going to worry about them that much. Actually, I guess that sounds kinda harsh.... I guess you could just make MK your main, and Lucario your secondary and use him to counterpick certain characters.

 

[brinboy789]

from what i've heard, marth has advantage/neutral with everybody cept MK

 

[DemonFart]

hmmm
help demon,my user name=DEMONfart.
help me!

 

[masterspeaks]

Play metaknight if it will give you the best chance to win. Only scrubs whine about using high tiers and they don't matter because they are losers.

 

[DemonFart]

Haha so true,
"hey no fair u were using a better character!"

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I feel like responding to some of the messages I've seen in the first day of posting this.

Yes, Tiers are for Queers. If only they designed a Tier based on the number and types of match ups that a character wins, instead of letting tournament results dominate them. The list would be harder to make, but it would also be more balanced, since tournament tiers remind me of popularity lists.

Metaknight doesn't deserve to be banned. And I am adamant against his banishment. He's the best character in Brawl, hands down, and anyone who says otherwise is smoking crack, of course. But between the number of characters who can kick his butt (Snake, the Kongs, Pikachu, Dedede, and of course, Lucario) as well as the number of new techniques that people learn to use over time, I don't see why people see him as such a threat.

Against high level players who use the 3 that can beat Lucario, I'll need to find some way to stop them. If Metaknight (who was someone that I've already liked using simply because of the nostalgia of the Kirby games), then I don't see the chame in using him. But I just don't want to end up subconciously maining him over my Lucario, especially since that would just leave me vunerable to the pokemon who used to support me.

I might start trying Marth, although Mirror Matches would be a you-know-what. The enemy Marth would be able to beat both my characters. I have to find a partner who can take care of only 3 characters, and then my Lucario would beat the crap out of everyone else. I hope one day for Lucario and I to become champions, and to be able to fight amoung the Titans of Brawl. That's my dream.

I don't intend on being cheap or spamy to win. I fight with honor and dignity. Except for Aura Sphere Barrages to destroy frontal assaults, I don't usually do anything cheap. I have a weird sense of Pride and Nobility, or I might not even care and just be one of the flaming n00bs who either wants Metaknight banned because they want to win without having to work hard (that's just an example of one of the types of people that want him banned, I'm not labeling all of those that want him banned that way) or that sells their souls and mains him because they see him as the easiest way to win (despite the many ways to crush him), who end up shaming the entire game. I do not want to become either one.

I don't want to have to get multiple characters, only because I want to devote as much of my training time to my right hand man Lucario, and my left hand man (who i still need to find, possible Metaknight or Marth) who supports my right hand man.

What the heck is a Llamacario? Lets use real information please. I consider this serious, only because of my ambitions to become one of the absolute best, and to stand a chance against champions.

I might give Snake a try if he can take on all 3 of them. Because if he does, then his job is just against those 3, and Lucario will be able to pick up the reigns against all else, including other Snakes. But I thought Olimar could shield from Snake's explosives using Red Pikmin, and that he is small enough to dodge and use his pikmin to punish Snake's slower but stronger moves....

I don't intend on fighting dumb enemies. I can currently take on 3 of the kids at my school by myself. I want to be able to fight against pros.

If I use someone who fights just like Lucario (like Zelda or Samus, who Ironically I used to play with before accessing Lucario) wouldn't they get their butts kicked harder in similar situations?

I thought that the boards for Lucario listed Olimar as a threat, plus I've played several different Olimar's, and his down smash kicks butt. Then again, he might not even really be a threat, which would make my journey for a secondary much easier. I should do more research into fighting him.

I'm honestly not consumed by match ups and tiers, but I can't just disregard them either. To face people with the skill of the SBR, I have to be completely prepared. So I have to be ready with someone to help me face my bad matchups. I'm not worried about enemy Metaknights, since I can fight them off with Lucario, but I need to make sure that other high threats that are enemies of Lucario are put to rest by my secondary. And I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO MAIN METAKNIGHT JUST AS AN END ALL SOLUTION! The Aura is within me, and helps guide me in battle, so I would be a fool to forsake as powerful an ally as Lucario. Not to mention that those who destroy Metaknight would run roughshod over me.

I could give a **** about tiers, but I do dislike losing. I want to be the best, and seeing myself lose means I don't have enough skill. It makes me sad for a little while, but then Lucario and I get back up and continue kicking butt. I just need an ally who can help out even when Lucario is doing not so good.

People, sorry for the huge as heck wall of text. And I'll appreciate any more advice if you can give it. So far, I've decided that I'll consider Metaknight still as long as I fight with respect, but that I can also rely on possibly Marth and Snake.

 

[Quail Man]

If you're only going to be using him for those 3 matchups, then not Snake. He takes too much effort to learn. You said you don't want to use Metaknight, so that leaves Marth.

The Aura is within me, and helps guide me in battle, so I would be a fool to forsake as powerful an ally as Lucario.

LOL

 

[SothE700k]

I don't intend on being cheap or spamy to win. I fight with honor and dignity. Except for Aura Sphere Barrages to destroy frontal assaults, I don't usually do anything cheap.

I stopped reading when I saw that and I realized there, that you're going to have a MASSIVE amount of problems in the future with that attitude.

Its win or die in competitive smash.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

You under estimate fighting honorably but still getting the job done. Some of the kids at my school are tournament applicable, and yet I can fight 3 against 1 with them with no problem. I do combos no problem, and I edgeguard and intercept still, but I have no need to chain grab or do anything like that to win. Simply using the right move in the right situation can get the job just as well. Although, does Lucario really have any cheap techniques? Other than spamming the Aura Sphere (which I'll do to stop approaches), he's a straight up fighter...

Anyone that feels like questioning my methods, give me your friendscode, and I'll fight you myself. Judge me once you have, but not before.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Your friends suck at Brawl.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

But then again, unless you fight them yourself, you wouldn't ever really know, would you? I just enjoy letting them defeat eachother, despite rushing to try to kill me. That's typically how I play Lucario, especially since he seems to be a defensive character.

 

[Melomaniacal]

But then again, unless you fight them yourself, you wouldn't ever really know, would you? I just enjoy letting them defeat eachother, despite rushing to try to kill me. That's typically how I play Lucario, especially since he seems to be a defensive character.

If three people team up on you and lose, they suck. I don't need to see them play to know this.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Some of the kids at my school are tournament applicable, and yet I can fight 3 against 1 with them with no problem.

This is a flat out lie.

And going around challenging people to wifail matches to try to prove your point is a good way to lose credibility, by the way.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

It might be, but the one or two times I've asked during this thread to fight against people, it has only been that if someone wants to judge my playing style, he should fight me dirrectly, so that he can get a better judgement on me himself.

And a couple of the kids were people that won the Preliminaries and Second rounds during the first ever Brawl tournament, as well as competed in several other tournaments all the time, some of them working even harder than me. Infact, the only reason I can beat them is that in 1v1 matches, I finish warming up half way through the match and begin playing defensively, predicting moves within milliseconds, and then punishing for mistakes. And then commically, they might call other friends to join, with the intent of trying to gang me and then fight eachother, but killing eachother in the process of the fight, letting me finish them off while they are weakened. That probably is the cheapest I can get, but hey, not much I can do when I have multiple enemies out for my blood...

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Granted, I'll still challenge people on Wifi all the time. But I don't intend on trying to be rude or offensive in my challenges. I simply want to fight as many fighters as I can, hoping to make my way from standard brawls to clawing my way to the top. And since I can't go and enter tournaments personally right now (stupid broken ribs and muscles, not to mention a desroyed car from a car accident), Wifi is the best way for me to fight people. If only lvl 9 computers were good to train on, then I wouldn't have to being rude and annoy people for Brawls. But I can't let myself get rusty, especially if I want to be able to achieve my dream of meeting the SBR on the field of battle. I'd lose, but it would still be a wonderful struggle, just to live against them. Sorry for the rant. I don't wanna be rude to fight people, I just want to be able to Brawl.

 

[Alfa]

I had a quick loo at this thread and I am wondering why no one has suggested Link. I use Link and can beat one of my friends who uses Marth and Olimar, and another one who use Game and Watch (until he finishes warming up, it takes him about 2 and a half hours).

Link has multiple projetiles which are useful against Marth and G&W, and a long ranged Zair to deal with all 3 charaters. Most of his moves also have good range, which can help against all 3 of those characters due to their range. All you really need to remeber for Link against G&W is to tech the Dthrow and you should be fine.

And to everyone who reads this, please don't post things like "Link sux he can't recover!!!1!!," you are not contributing and being a nuisance.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Talking about how Link is a good secondary because you beat your friends with him isn't contriubting either.

Words words words words words

You said you can beat your friends 1 on 3.

They're bad. Don't try to say otherwise.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, he wouldn't. Only by Atlantic North.

I made it more accurate.

As much as I like Link, he doesn't do well.
Why? Close range combat is a bit lacking and offstage, he gets *****.

 

[Alfa]

@Col. Stauffenberg:

I was just trying to give an example and a reason why I suggested Link to begin with, then I listed a few advantages Link had over the others. I believe that the examples of Link's advantages I gave and the proposal of using Link contributed to this thread.

@ShadowLink84:

Yes, Link may be lacking a bit in close combat, but you should be able to keep most opponents away for quite a while with his projectiles/Zair, then you can shield a bit and try to get to a comfortable distance again. To get Link offstage he has to be hit, it's simple: don't get hit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ad.

@ShadowLink84:

Yes, Link may be lacking a bit in close combat, but you should be able to keep most opponents away for quite a while with his projectiles/Zair, then you can shield a bit and try to get to a comfortable distance again. To get Link offstage he has to be hit, it's simple: don't get hit.

Saying dont get hit for Link, is not the same as saying don't get hit for Falco.

Link's projectile game isn't as strong as it used to be and while he is good at mid range, he doesn't do very well at far or close combat. There are also several characters who outcamp him because of his inferior projectile game.

His margin of error is very small, the opponent can take much more damage than Link simply because Link's recovery is that bad.
If the opponent simply tilts you off stage then Fairs or does anything that halts Links momentum, he dies.

If you get hit away a certain distance, you die.

Considering his issues upclose, it is incredibly difficult for Link to stay onstage where he WILL get gimped or if not gimped, will take damage that many characters can easily avoid.

Its fine he can space an opponent, doesn't mean a **** thing if he is dying at 54%

 

[Snowstalker]

Peach and Yoshi do well against Olimar.

For Marth and G&W, pack Snake.

 

[TK Wolf]

No offense man, but "I can beat my friends" (much less in a 4-way match) is the canon response of someone who's never been to a real tourney before and seen high-level play. And there is no such thing as playing honorably. It's a fighting game. You use the tools you have available, instead of making random rules of what you determine to be fair or unfair.

Also, the first Brawl tourney was the biggest crock of a tourney I've ever heard of.

MK is a good secondary. If you're that against MK, use Snake or Marth.