Q&A Have a Question? We'll give you a "Hint" - Ness Question/Answer Thread (CHECK HERE)

[PSIBoy]

Question I'm having a problem with f-air combos after down throw. A lot of players seem to just air dodge out of it right away unless they're not so good. What am I doing wrong when I've had other Ness do what feels like an un-air dodgeable combo?

Well, damage may be a factor, but it is likely lag. If it is online, of course. Local, then it would probably be damage.

 

[Earthbound360]

Question I'm having a problem with f-air combos after down throw. A lot of players seem to just air dodge out of it right away unless they're not so good. What am I doing wrong when I've had other Ness do what feels like an un-air dodgeable combo?

It's really tight. Almost immediately after the throw animation ends, you've gotta jump and do the fair ASAP. Some characters, it just plain doesn't work on sadly. At later percents, it doesn't work on anyone.

 

[Earthbound360]

Curse you Smashboards and your double posting error crap.

 

[ilysm]

The d-throw -> fair can be a guess sometimes. If they airdodge every time just wait for them to hit the ground, then grab them again. It's pretty much guaranteed and it looks hilarious if they take a while to catch on. After a while, if they're any good, they'll start mixing it up, making it kind of a rock-paper-scissors game that's still in Ness's favor. It's pretty much guaranteed on almost everybody starting from 0% though, as far as I know.

 

[ilysm]

Woops, double posted, sorry. Seems to be an issue.

 

[Snerp]

Anyone know what frame/when Ness's dair spikes?

 

[PKBeam]

first frame with a hitbox, frame 20 only.

 

[ilysm]

Dang, for real? I didn't know it was that strict. Why on earth do I use this move? :/

 

[PKBeam]

yes, check our frame data thread.
plus, 30 frames of endlag and another 30 in landing lag. it's actually the same as brawl but because of the meteor frame change it sucks now.

 

[Earthbound360]

I'd rather have the Brawl version that autocancels when used out of a short hop

 

[PKBeam]

yeah. also the brawl sourspot actually killed.

 

[Funkermonster]

Best option for punishing rolls?

 

[Earthbound360]

Best option for punishing rolls?

I liek to use the yo-yo attacks for their meaty hitboxes.

 

[Noa.]

Best option for punishing rolls?

Dash grab, dash attack, pk fire, usmash, dsmash, sh nair. All of these work.

 

[marioarturo2000]

Do you know how effective is the PK Fire against different characters? Not sure if this has been discussed before.
Having experience only playing For Glory, I can say that I avoid to use a lot of PK Fire against Little Mac or Diddy Kong since I'm punished by using it more frequently than against other characters (when these characters used FB they avoid the PK Fire and I don't have enough time to shield or avoid their attack).
Against Sonic, Greninja or Luigi, although I don't get punished by using it, I think they can escape really quickly making it a lot harder to follow up.

 

[Earthbound360]

Do you know how effective is the PK Fire against different characters? Not sure if this has been discussed before.
Having experience only playing For Glory, I can say that I avoid to use a lot of PK Fire against Little Mac or Diddy Kong since I'm punished by using it more frequently than against other characters (when these characters used FB they avoid the PK Fire and I don't have enough time to shield or avoid their attack).
Against Sonic, Greninja or Luigi, although I don't get punished by using it, I think they can escape really quickly making it a lot harder to follow up.

The usefulness of PK Fire is typically negatively correlated to the speed of the opponent. Faster they are, less effective PKF tends to be IMO. Same for aerial time. People like Jiggs and Diddy (with his side B) are really hard to hit PKF with because the hitbox is so low.

Bowser gets out of it for free until about 40% due to armor.

Big boys (and Bowser past 40%) are trapped REALLY hard in the fire. DK, Bowser, Charizard, Dedede, etc. It's pretty useful against them.

 

[marioarturo2000]

Yeah, I think you are right, but what about taking into account different moves that the characters can use to escape; some characters escape better by using Up B, others by rolling back or jumping, Lucina for example can counter after the PK Fire hit her limiting the effectiveness.

 

[Earthbound360]

There are a lot of characters that can do stupid ***** while being burned. A few of them can rapidly jab in the fire, Mac and Marth/Lucina can counter it, some can UpB out of it. However, this doesn't really diminishi the usefulness of PKF too much. You can always read and react to these escape techniques. Getting countered? Block that **** and grab them. Jab combos pushing you out? Toss another PKF their way. That'll teach em. UpBs granting freedom? Punish their helpless landing.

 

[PKBeam]

Shulk's Counter goes through shield and it the fast version is... really fast so you have less to work with. Zelda gets free Nayrus out of PKF. That's kinda sad because it's pretty much unpunishable unless you jump over and Bair her (unlikely) or she keeps spamming B and you go over there and PKT2 her (very unlikely).

 

[Tikao]

You can use some things to ignite your pk-fire on and create a wall and a little bit of stage control for a short period of time as well as refreshing your moves (pk-fire's multi hit hiotboxes hit often enough for you to (most of the time) refresh everything, making it easier to kill with moves which were stalled previously.
Depending on what you hit, you might kill/destroy it which is even better

Those things are :

Bowser Jr's mecha koopa
DHD's neutral-b (when on the ground)
DHD's down-b
Greninja's substitute
Olimar's pikmin (when attackable)
Pac-Man's down-b
ROB's Gyro
Luma (realy great against Luma since Luma can't shield it and will be in hitstun and actually take damage, so this gives you more than just a little bit of stage control and refreshing your moves)
Villager's tree
Wario's bike
Zelda's Phantom

compared to brawl, there are way more things to ignite pk-fire on, which makes it more usefull.
Since you use uair for more than just killing, this will actually be realy great for making uair a better killmove, since you can easily refresh it this way

 

[Earthbound360]

Shulk's Counter goes through shield and it the fast version is... really fast so you have less to work with. Zelda gets free Nayrus out of PKF. That's kinda sad because it's pretty much unpunishable unless you jump over and Bair her (unlikely) or she keeps spamming B and you go over there and PKT2 her (very unlikely).

I just use dash attack against Zelda's who do that. It outranges the blades of Nayrus.

 

[yoshi8984]

So does Ness' Dash Attack actually KO now?

http://s290.photobucket.com/user/ZanhiXx/media/Smash Vids/IMG_2067_zpsgzrf3nnx.mp4.html

^I know Rosalina is light and I had a good amount of rage but how much of a factor did rage play into this? I tested it in Training mode (yeah I know Rage doesn't apply there) and it took me until like 180% to net the KO with it. o.o

Also I can't tell, but was Rosa trying to charge an F-Smash there? To me it looked like a Jab but if she was charging one it may explain another factor for that KO. =P

 

[Earthbound360]

So does Ness' Dash Attack actually KO now?

http://s290.photobucket.com/user/ZanhiXx/media/Smash Vids/IMG_2067_zpsgzrf3nnx.mp4.html

^I know Rosalina is light and I had a good amount of rage but how much of a factor did rage play into this? I tested it in Training mode (yeah I know Rage doesn't apply there) and it took me until like 180% to net the KO with it. o.o

Also I can't tell, but was Rosa trying to charge an F-Smash there? To me it looked like a Jab but if she was charging one it may explain another factor for that KO. =P

Well that's peculiar. Don't think I've ever seen dash attack do that. All I can attribute that to is high rage and Rosalina's lightness, as well as the dash attack being perfectly fresh upon use. Gonna probably check on that later today.

 

[Noa.]

So does Ness' Dash Attack actually KO now?

http://s290.photobucket.com/user/ZanhiXx/media/Smash Vids/IMG_2067_zpsgzrf3nnx.mp4.html

^I know Rosalina is light and I had a good amount of rage but how much of a factor did rage play into this? I tested it in Training mode (yeah I know Rage doesn't apply there) and it took me until like 180% to net the KO with it. o.o

Also I can't tell, but was Rosa trying to charge an F-Smash there? To me it looked like a Jab but if she was charging one it may explain another factor for that KO. =P

If your attack is completely fresh, it gets a 5% increase in damage which is the freshness bonus. When moves do more damage the have more knockback. Plus you have your rage. And Rosalina is very light, and floaty characters die off the top very early. Also, when characters are charging smashes, they receive a very big increase in knockback taken.

I still would've been surprised though.

 

[Earthbound360]

Also, when characters are charging smashes, they receive a very big increase in knockback taken.

I feel late. How long has this been a thing? O_o

 

[Noa.]

I feel late. How long has this been a thing? O_o

It was in brawl...

:x

 

[yoshi8984]

I feel late. How long has this been a thing? O_o

I never would've noticed it too...

Until I KO'd a Wolf who was charging a D-Smash at 55% with the Brawl Dair sourspot, as shown here (19:54).
^I believe the planets aligned perfectly for him to get wrecked though, because...

1 - It was a D-Smash being charged so the DI lol
2 - He was close to the right ledge
3 - And then the fact he was hit out of charging a Smash.

Now I have another reason for missing the fact that Ness' Yo-Yos don't hit while charging though... ;~;
(It didn't apply for Ness in Brawl cause charging the Yo-Yo extended the duration of the hitboxes so he wasn't really charging it lol)

And dear god I miss Brawl Dair lol
--

Also, did Ness' F-Smash range get nerfed? I swear I've missed when I'm damn sure it was supposed to connect in some situations. >__>

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like a derp now lol.

Ness' fsmash has always had ass range in this game.

 

[Funkermonster]

Is there anywhere where I ca find a full list of changes of Ness from Brawl? I don't really know where I can other than Smashwiki, and I don't trust that place anymore since anyone can edit it, and on Ness's page it doesn't even list all of his changes (or at least the nerfs).

 

[PKBeam]

i updated both smash wikis with reliable info, e.g. changes in moveset data.
not a full list.
but still.

 

[Star250]

I'm new to smash and my friends are reck'n me. I'd like to get some information on certain situations if i could.

-I know Big Link's up spin attack leaves him open but when i avoid it or any of his moves I have trouble punishing him. Even if i'm just out side of baseball bat range. How do i punish at this range?

-How do you get past Link item spam?

-How do i catch Link constantly doing the block backdash?

-Whats the best way to punish air down attacks that protect the attacker while moving them downward? (like links down stab or Ganon's fire kick down)

 

[Earthbound360]

The Smash Wiki scares me. It claimed that Ness' dair was almost as fast as the 64 version, and that uthrow KOd reliably X_X

I'm new to smash and my friends are reck'n me. I'd like to get some information on certain situations if i could.

-I know Big Link's up spin attack leaves him open but when i avoid it or any of his moves I have trouble punishing him. Even if i'm just out side of baseball bat range. How do i punish at this range?

-How do you get past Link item spam?

-How do i catch Link constantly doing the block backdash?

-Whats the best way to punish air down attacks that protect the attacker while moving them downward? (like links down stab or Ganon's fire kick down)

1. Block it and punish it while he's still spinning if you're within range. If you're out of range, PKF fire to dash grab, or just dash grab the ending animation.
2. Run/walk and shield, immediately drop the shield, and continue your approach. I like to empty short hop the arrows sometimes.
3. I'm assuming you mean rolling backwards here. Predict the roll and punish it by attacking where he's going to be. I'd recommend dash attack or grab if you're close enough.
4. Spot dodge, or short hop air dodge.

Try to work on your fundamentals in this case. It sounds like the basic strategies implemented by others are really getting you here. Moving and shielding to get through projectile walls, punishing attacks from above, and roll punishing are applicable to all characters, and pretty important fundamental skills to have against all characters. Get used to the general ideas of blocking and punishing, and predicting opponent movement.

 

[ilysm]

^If uthrow could KO as reliably as PM Lucas's it would be a dream come true. Huge fan of PK Pizza Toss.

Has anyone figured out an effective way to get a grab out of a jab? I know other characters can do goofy little jab-jab grab things, but I'm not entirely certain it works for Ness in the same way it did in Brawl. Getting grabs out of jabs could potentially be great in the neutral.

 

[Earthbound360]

^If uthrow could KO as reliably as PM Lucas's it would be a dream come true. Huge fan of PK Pizza Toss.

Has anyone figured out an effective way to get a grab out of a jab? I know other characters can do goofy little jab-jab grab things, but I'm not entirely certain it works for Ness in the same way it did in Brawl. Getting grabs out of jabs could potentially be great in the neutral.

Ness really isn't good at that since his jab keeps people grounded and doesn't have a lot of hitstun in comparison to its recovery frames. It typically works better with jabs that lift, like Link and Luigi.

Ness' dtilt can trip into grab though. But it's not always worth it since you can just grab them in most cases you can land a dtilt. However, dtilt DOES recover faster.

 

[Noa.]

^If uthrow could KO as reliably as PM Lucas's it would be a dream come true. Huge fan of PK Pizza Toss.

Has anyone figured out an effective way to get a grab out of a jab? I know other characters can do goofy little jab-jab grab things, but I'm not entirely certain it works for Ness in the same way it did in Brawl. Getting grabs out of jabs could potentially be great in the neutral.

I don't think our jab can cancel into a grab reliably. It's just too slow and has too low hitsun to make use of it. I think anyways. I haven't actually tried it. You should try using jab 1 grab or jab 1 jab 2 grab in training mode and see how it goes.

 

[neomadgic]

^If uthrow could KO as reliably as PM Lucas's it would be a dream come true. Huge fan of PK Pizza Toss.

Has anyone figured out an effective way to get a grab out of a jab? I know other characters can do goofy little jab-jab grab things, but I'm not entirely certain it works for Ness in the same way it did in Brawl. Getting grabs out of jabs could potentially be great in the neutral.

Can confirm: Jab jab to grab and jab to grab doesn't work.

I don't even know why, but I have a bad habit of doing this, and it works like maybe 5% of the time, when your opponent is trying to shield the jab hits (no idea why). The other 95% of the time, I get punished. Usually with a jab of their own.

 

[Noa.]

I've also landed a jab grab. But yeah it only works if your opponent is just too scared to drop shield. It's in no way effective really.

 

[PKBeam]

you can try Dtilt to grab. the only downside is the range.

 

[Screk]

So hoow do you guys handle

Rob
Pikachu
Megaman
Dr Mario

Since these are the MU's I lost to

 

[NorCal_DSS]

So hoow do you guys handle

Rob
Pikachu
Megaman
Dr Mario

Since these are the MU's I lost to

Put megaman in the air. Juggle him. When he's right above you, he has no options available to him (except to air dodge). Read the air dodge, and punish accordingly. You can also absorb his lemons, but don't be obvious about it, or a good MM will bait you with it.