Q&A Have a Question? We'll give you a "Hint" - Ness Question/Answer Thread (CHECK HERE)

[ilysm]

As far as dtilt goes, double dtilt is sometimes good because it isn't too big of a commitment, automatically makes your trip chance 60%, and the second hit doesn't reset the first one if it trips.

 

[Earthbound360]

As far as dtilt goes, double dtilt is sometimes good because it isn't too big of a commitment, automatically makes your trip chance 60%, and the second hit doesn't reset the first one if it trips.

I should clarify that the second part is true for most characters, but some characters' trip animation makes them hit the ground instantly, causing the second dtilt to reset them.

 

[ilysm]

Really? Huh! Learn something new every day. Never occurred to me to try it with everyone in the cast. Things like this are why Melee's meta is still developing, I suppose.

 

[Snackss]

Does anyone do forward air then up air off of a down throw? I feel like it gives you a lot of options since Ness lands first, but obviously depends on where you are on the stage and who you're playing.

 

[PKBeam]

the hitstun makes it hard, and besides two more Fairs do more damage and probably get them offstage.

well. if they DI up then you get lots of stuff on them. Uairs mostly tho.

 

[XCounter]

Does anyone do forward air then up air off of a down throw? I feel like it gives you a lot of options since Ness lands first, but obviously depends on where you are on the stage and who you're playing.

Yeah, I do that on the heavier and/or taller characters if they're close to the centre of the stage. It does more damage and there are more ways to follow up after it.

The possibilities for a follow up are pretty much endless depending on their reaction. It's a lot more versatile than just getting two fairs imo.

 

[Earthbound360]

Does anyone do forward air then up air off of a down throw? I feel like it gives you a lot of options since Ness lands first, but obviously depends on where you are on the stage and who you're playing.

This is actually what you should be going for when you can. Fair into fair is the weakest combo you can get off of dthrow. Fair uair or fair nair are stronger, but dependent on the opponent's position. Land them when you can.

Fair+fair = 14%
Fair+nair = 18%
Fair+uair = 20%

Fair will only lead to a 3rd fair very rarely as a true combo. I'd rather stick with the higher guaranteed damage. I also like being under people unless they're like Villager or something.

 

[Douchuumen]

How does a good Ness main play the neutral game? Ness doesn't seem very good at it compared to other characters.

 

[Earthbound360]

Could be better, but at least he's not as slow as the big characters, while hitting almost as hard as them.

 

[EyexSore]

Studying up on my Ness game so I have a counter for Sheik (From a series I love anyway). Anybody know how I edge guard with him?

 

[Earthbound360]

Studying up on my Ness game so I have a counter for Sheik (From a series I love anyway). Anybody know how I edge guard with him?

PKT, nair, and fair are you most reliable options. Bair and angled ftilts can be useful too, but not as much as the aforementioned 3.

However, I must mention that picking Ness to counter Sheik isn't going to work very well...

 

[Snackss]

Ness has nothing on Sheik's needles.

 

[EyexSore]

Woah woah. Nevermind, I was looking at the wrong thing. I was thinking that was a weird match-up. Either way, it's valuable information.

 

[Douchuumen]

Didn't wanna create a thread on this topic, but I've been thinking about something for a while; how can a player be more evasive with Ness?

As boring as it is to watch, seeing players like Dabuz not get hit for long periods of time in a match is pretty remarkable when you think about it. He can force someone to approach him, take minimal/no damage, then punish them when they overcommit to an attack. It's something that I'd really like to add to my game when the time calls for it.

Obviously Ness isn't as well equipped as Rosalina & Luma to camp, but does he have any tools that could produce similar results? My first thought would be retreating fairs and nairs to keep a good hitbox out while still moving out of the range of an opponent's attack.

 

[Earthbound360]

Retreating fairs and nairs are probably your best bet. Bair is somewhat safe on shield. Ness can also SH air dodge and have no landing lag. You can even DJ or use another aerial before landing.

Ness isn't particularly good at running away IMO though. His dash speed isn't too hot, and his aerial mobility isn't bad, but it's not enough to just evade all match.

 

[Qoo]

does anyone know at what frame psi magnet starts absorbing?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm struggling to do any good with Ness. I just cannot figure out how to use him; his projectiles are obviously not keepaway tools, and PK Fire is unsafe on block. His speed is purely average. His reach is terrible. This last part is what really confounds me; everyone can wall me out with swords, Mac's boxing gloves, etc.

Thus to ask a very stupid question, what can I use to 'git gud' with him and figure him out? I'm tired of opponents insulting me for doing poorly with Ness. They change their tune as soon as I beat them down with Robin, but I'd as soon not have to swap out when I know Ness is a strong character and merely one I cannot comprehend well.

 

[Snackss]

It's intimidating to play as Ness. His recovery is really risky and it feels incredibly exposing to lose as him even though he's never been a top tier character and still isn't.

You use PK Fire on either a roll read, or catch them on landing. It's easy to shield and punish, so don't use it if your opponent is only a few paces away. If they try to approach with short hops, you can keep them out with well-spaced forward airs. If they get too close, you can block and then neutral air out of shield, it's a ridiculously good move. Mostly you want to put them at the disadvantage so you can harass with PK Thunder, which sets up for an easy up air or a reckless landing that you can punish with PK Fire or smashes. Don't just dash and grab, though Ness has a decent dash grab so you can do some pretty tricky stuff like backing off then immediately dashing and grabbing. You don't really want to approach as Ness, but he's not a zoning character and you don't want to give the impression that you're camping. You can creep forward with forward airs, but it's more about getting people to approach you and then punishing with Ness's really good aerials than actively pressuring them during neutral.

Dash attack is unsafe but has huge range, so is good for punishing rolls.

Back air is also usually safe on shield when you jump and space properly as well as being a KO move, so you can start throwing it out when they're at KO percentage.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Those are some interesting thoughts. Thanks, @ S Snackss ! I'll give those a try and see if they get me at least started on the right track.

 

[PKBeam]

does anyone know at what frame psi magnet starts absorbing?

most likely on the frame it visually appears, which is about 10.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So @ S Snackss got me going in the right direction. Went from 'incompetent and being insulted by my opponents' to 'winning about half the time.' I consider this good progress over the span of mere hours! Thank you for the help.

One other question... generally speaking, what are good ways to land a grab so I can get b-throw at kill percents? Obviously people will know I'm fishing for it, but even with that in mind... this is the last major part of his play-style that eludes me. Being careful with fading in and out movement on my jumps (esp. recovery, so I don't have to rely on PKT2 for it) is going fine, not using PK Fire at bad times is likewise going well. Just need to figure out landing the grab and I think I'm set.

Edit: Actually I'm a horrible liar and forgot that I'm struggling to land PKT2 on opponents at all. I can land PKT1 no problem, even looping it when need be and using its tail for gimping, but landing the 'human rocket' version of this is something I just can't seem to figure out. I'm more likely than not to send myself off-stage with it instead of hitting the opponent! Any thoughts here?

 

[PKBeam]

You get grabs mainly from PKF setups but also by reading shields and as a punish. Grabs don't have armour anymore so you can't just run in and grab them. Sometimes you get a grab out of a tech chase or a missed tech but PKF also does that pretty well.

If you're desperate, pivot grabs are less common and they make you turn the other way, so if they're really offguard and their back is near the ledge you can get an earlier kill from it (don't fish).

PKT2 is gimmicky. You get it more often than not from punishing bad landings when using PKT1 to juggle, edgeguard etc. You shouldn't rely on it for kills.

 

[ilysm]

@ P Pegasus Knight I agree with everything Snackss said, but would like to add one thing: in every game, in my opinion, the key to a good Ness has been crispy movement. This is especially true in Melee, where everybody has a bit more movement freedom, or Project M, where Ness is actually good, but it still applies here. Ness has great punish tools in his dash attack, PK Fire, dash grab, etc. and he can get a lot of followups out of one punish. But he can't hold down much in the way of offense or defense, as his long-range moves are slow and his quick moves have no range. That's the mark of a bait-and-punish character: when he's in control of a juggle, he's difficult to stop, which is why when the meta was still developing and his weaknesses weren't as exposed people thought he was so good. What I try to do (the operative word being 'try' as this takes a lot of practice) is use my movement to condition my opponent. Practice short-hopping, fast-falling, reverse-aerial-rushing (by the way, I still think RAR uair is godlike) and even put a bit of time into perfect-pivoting, though I'd be lying if I said that wasn't pretty situational. As soon as they make a mistake, hit them hard. But recognize that Ness is at his core a bait-and-punish character, and play accordingly. He's fairly mindgame-oriented imo.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I've found fishing for grabs off PK Fire is an exercise in "did they manage to slip out of the fire in time?" and thus kind of unreliable. Situations where I can pivot grab sound good though. PKT2... I'll keep that in mind. Thank you, @ PKBeam !

@ ilysm : Most of that makes sense and now I think I understand Ness' general strategy, so most of the specifics should slide into place on their own. The only one that I don't get just from reading it and applying this in training mode is your mention of RAR UAir. What good is that? RAR Bair I know (good way to approach with a kill move), and I know UAir is a kill move too... but why RAR it? What's so different about its behavior if you do that?

In any case, thank you all for entertaining my questions. I'm one of those that has a hard time with the initial learning on any character; I have to know what I should be looking for on even the basic level, then everything else comes pretty easily. At this point, aside from the RAR UAir confusion, I am good to go and can pick up the rest of the character by just studying match vids and topics here. I appreciate the help!

 

[Snackss]

The hitbox on Ness's up air starts behind him, then goes upward. It's pretty apparent from the animation. So doing it as a reverse aerial lets it hit earlier than if you simply did it while running forward, that's all. It's a lot like Mario's up smash, although I don't think it has invincibility.

Characters with fast jabs or up b's can mash during PK Fire. You can try to punish them with more PK Fires or just dash up and do an aerial. How safe a grab is usually depends on the character and how deep the PK Fire activated in the opponent.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Ohh! I get it now. Okay then... looks like all I need to do is start applying this to my play. Thanks again everyone! Ness makes sense to me now and I think I can figure out the finer points from here.

 

[ilysm]

Plus at low %s uair can start combos! So RARing it gives you a bit more coverage. Glad you've got it! Good luck, dude! :D

 

[Funen1]

I was actually curious about the whole "U-air hits faster behind" thing since I previously thought that wasn't the case, despite the animation (that's what happens when you try to judge frames at 1x speed lol), but I went and tested it and realized I was wrong after all. To back it up with some numbers, the back hit of U-air trades with Ganon's jab 1 (frame 8), while the front hit trades with Zelda's jab 1 (frame 11). Normally I don't think too much about RARing aerials, especially since N-air is his fastest aerial regardless, but it's something I should add to my game too.

 

[Qoo]

most likely on the frame it visually appears, which is about 10.

ohh
thanks

 

[lolreconlol]

Any tips against Fox?

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Any tips against Fox?

Keep pressure with short hop fairs and maintain proper spacing. Don't spam PK Fire, but against Fox, the reflector is laggy so you can actually heal off the reflected fire if you screw up. (Don't strive for that, because you still take net damage from the ordeal.) The standard Fox fare is to shorthop fair or fastfall nair at you, close to the ground. Either shield and hold until he lands and has to get up, so you can grab, or just wall him out with fair after fair. Ideally, you keep Fox above you. His recovery is also bad, so consider using a forward throw to send him offstage and rack up damage with a PKT or two as he tries to recover. This isn't to KO, but to get the 11% damage from the forward throw (+1 pummel if you're ahead), then 16-18% in PKT damage.

In short:

"Personally, I prefer the air!"
—Falco Lombardi​

 

[lolreconlol]

Keep pressure with short hop fairs and maintain proper spacing. Don't spam PK Fire, but against Fox, the reflector is laggy so you can actually heal off the reflected fire if you screw up. (Don't strive for that, because you still take net damage from the ordeal.) The standard Fox fare is to shorthop fair or fastfall nair at you, close to the ground. Either shield and hold until he lands and has to get up, so you can grab, or just wall him out with fair after fair. Ideally, you keep Fox above you. His recovery is also bad, so consider using a forward throw to send him offstage and rack up damage with a PKT or two as he tries to recover. This isn't to KO, but to get the 11% damage from the forward throw (+1 pummel if you're ahead), then 16-18% in PKT damage.

In short:

"Personally, I prefer the air!"
—Falco Lombardi​

Thanks a lot!

 

[Earthboundy]

I really really need help against the Marth match up.

 

[Earthboundy]

Thanks a lot!

https://twitter.com/ZeRoSSB/status/596119065556430849

 

[Earthbound360]

Marth can't do jack against shields other than shield breaker. Just play super turtley and punish things (Ness is REALLY good at punishing hard), and you win.

 

[Earthboundy]

Marth can't do jack against shields other than shield breaker. Just play super turtley and punish things (Ness is REALLY good at punishing hard), and you win.

Shield breaker is great for fighting shields.

 

[Earthbound360]

It's also laggy. As long as you spot the shield breaker, you can get a nice punish on it.

 

[Qoo]

I really really need help against the Marth match up.

marth has a lot of lag on pretty much any attack he has so if ur good at spotdodging or powershielding you can punish easily

he can use up b to get out of pk fire so keep that in mind, u can read the up b and throw another fire or perhaps an aerial

his recovery is kinda lacking if u can take his double jump so hitting him w the tail of pkt hurts him a lot

marth is also teeerrrible at landing safely so u can take advantage of that

 

[Earthboundy]

Thanks for the help with the Zelda match up. It is definitely in her favor by a wide margin. I feel she's top 8.

 

[Snackss]

I don't know about that, but treating anyone like a free win just because a tier list says they're bottom tier is going to get you a lot of losses.