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Q&A Have a Question? We'll give you a "Hint" - Ness Question/Answer Thread (CHECK HERE)

darktrickster101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
52
Where does everyone think Ness is as far as tiers are concerned?
Also what projectiles can Ness reflect with his bat?
 

Snackss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
362
Ness is high tier. Maybe top 10, the problem is that 3 or so of the top tiers are his worst matchups, which is obviously kind of a big problem.

I think it would be easier to answer what projectiles Ness CAN'T reflect with his bat. He might be able to hit Fox and Falco's lasers, as useless as that would be. I don't know if he can hit Falco's reflector.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
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You just gotta be patient in that matchup, not spam PKF, and understand how FW works. I'm 90% sure that's a matchup in Ness' favor.
 

jset818

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
51
Hi. Long time lurker since melee days. I had to recreate an account because I forgot my previous account info. I recently got into Smash 4 and I been practicing a lot with my buddy who plays a super annoying Link. I have two simple questions.

1. Against Link. How do I get past his wall of projectiles (boomerang, bombs, arrows) and his Zair. Every time I would get close, he would SHFF Zair or Nair if I'm standing too close. If I roll into him, he would roll away or jab me out. His Zair comes like so fast and it seems like it has no recovery lag that I just can't punish him for spamming it.

2. For oos Nair, do I let go of the shield button and then shorthop Nair or do I keep the holding down the shield button while doing Nair? Or it doesn't make a difference?
 

CURRY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
486
Location
Smashville, USA
What's the frame data for forced getup after a lock?
Also, if there's data for Brawl, that would be kinda cool too.
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
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Jul 3, 2006
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Hi. Long time lurker since melee days. I had to recreate an account because I forgot my previous account info. I recently got into Smash 4 and I been practicing a lot with my buddy who plays a super annoying Link. I have two simple questions.

1. Against Link. How do I get past his wall of projectiles (boomerang, bombs, arrows) and his Zair. Every time I would get close, he would SHFF Zair or Nair if I'm standing too close. If I roll into him, he would roll away or jab me out. His Zair comes like so fast and it seems like it has no recovery lag that I just can't punish him for spamming it.

2. For oos Nair, do I let go of the shield button and then shorthop Nair or do I keep the holding down the shield button while doing Nair? Or it doesn't make a difference?
1. Dashing and shielding will get you in on the projectile wall. Link can't really spit his projectiles out fast enough to presure your shield at a range. As for dealing with zair, you might just wanna shield that too and make a read after he lands. Don't tell yourself you've got a guaranteed punish after shielding it, but instead, see it as an opportunity to make a read on the uncomfortable position you're putting him in. Is he going to jab? Space an attack to counter it. Is he going to dodge? Use a meaty attack to punish it. Don't roll into him though, that's how you get punished.

2. I don't think it matters.
 

Earthboundy

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 21, 2014
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136
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How do I deal with Zero Suit Samus' insane grab graple. It feels like it sucks me in.
 

Earthbound360

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SH air dodge works fine. Should get you through the whole thing, and you can reposition yourself better than a roll. Zamus' grab is super free if missed. Punish her hard.
 

jset818

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
51
1. Dashing and shielding will get you in on the projectile wall. Link can't really spit his projectiles out fast enough to presure your shield at a range. As for dealing with zair, you might just wanna shield that too and make a read after he lands. Don't tell yourself you've got a guaranteed punish after shielding it, but instead, see it as an opportunity to make a read on the uncomfortable position you're putting him in. Is he going to jab? Space an attack to counter it. Is he going to dodge? Use a meaty attack to punish it. Don't roll into him though, that's how you get punished.
What is the recovery frame for Link's Zair? Is it the same as his landing lag (10 frames)? What would be the optimal punish against a Link that just spams Zair when I'm in range?
 

Earthbound360

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Honestly, I'm not too sure about the frames, but I'm pretty sure it's not punishable. You need to make a read after it.

Maybe @ PKBeam PKBeam would know better?
 

PKBeam

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i think it's 3 frames (either that or 8), but you can't really punish a properly spaced and executed Zair anyway. Though, at the same time Link doesn't really get reliable followups out of it.

when you're in range... if ever, the Link needs to have abysmal spacing for you to shieldgrab him. The second fastest option is Nair, which is 10 or 11 frames OoS. Fair is 13/14 OoS as well.

you should ask the link boards (IN THEIR Q&A, DON'T MAKE A NEW THREAD) but i'd say to just use the attack to approach, instead of punishing, bad spacing excepted.
 
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Drarky

Smash Journeyman
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215
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Ok, from all the characters in the entire game...

How do I deal with Luigi? Like, for real, I think it's the one match up I just CAN'T do a damn thing, it's really infuriating </3
 

Qoo

Smash Rookie
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Feb 4, 2015
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mex
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salvaheck
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Ok, from all the characters in the entire game...

How do I deal with Luigi? Like, for real, I think it's the one match up I just CAN'T do a damn thing, it's really infuriating </3
i had a similar problem some time ago actually
avoid getting grabbed at low percents. dont throw pkfire too recklessly, mind ur spacing so u dont get shieldgrabbed
luigis aerials are faster than pretty much everything we have except nair so u need either good spacing/reads for fair and especially bair
 

Earthbound360

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Quick cliffnotes on Luigi (I've explained this matchup so many times at this point lol)

Nair to trade with aerial happy Luigis
Bair against shield grabby ones. Pushback 2 stronk for Luigi's butter feet.
Magnet cancel them fireballs
Gimp his recovery. PKT stops Green Missile (drive it into his head, and he stops). Luigi being forced to use his down B is mad punishable (bair dat ****). Luigi without a double jump off stage = dead.
Don't get grabbed. Spot dodge > shield in this matchup.
Tornado DI: Downdowndowndowndowndown > sideways on the last hit. If you DI out the bottom successfully, you can usually DJ uair him to punish.
 

Luco

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So I latched on to this idea when it was first discovered but didn't really hear too much of it afterwards. When Bair was first being said to be our new 'b&b tool in neutral' for safety, I was like "oh sweet, so I'm guessing Bair is totally safe on a non PS?" And then the whole thing died down and I never got an answer. :p

So what I'm asking is, Bair - is it safe on block on all characters? If not, who can punish it and how? What about as a landing option? And would one get better results delaying the use of Bair on a SH until they're close to the ground or would it be better to use it as soon as you SH and then FF to the ground?
 

Dark_Ky

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
30
Location
Germany
ok.. how do I deal with this little ******?

I have way too much trouble then I want to admit..

whats the best way to deal with PK-fire and thunder spam? that **** is so annyoing..

how do I deal with his arials? best way to shut off his neurtral game?

I use ZSS and Sheik btw
 

Diamond Octobot

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ok.. how do I deal with this little ****er?

I have way too much trouble then I want to admit..

whats the best way to deal with PK-fire and thunder spam? that **** is so annyoing..

how do I deal with his arials? best way to shut off his neurtral game?

I use ZSS and Sheik btw
Rushdown. I mean, if SANIC is a bad MU for Ness, then you should't worry too much about getting in. PK Fire is really laggy, so just jump over it and attack.
Ness' fastest aerial being Nair, you'll see lots of 'em coming out pretty much everywhere. Just trade, Uair is the only move you should really be scared off in the middle of the stage.
Ness has a pretty bad neutral through, so yeah...
Just keep pressuring. Needles already do it well on everyone, but don't forget to use that Paralyzer once in a while. Most people don' use PK Magnet like crazy, so don't be too scared :p
 
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Earthbound360

Smash Hero
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Bowie, MD
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So I latched on to this idea when it was first discovered but didn't really hear too much of it afterwards. When Bair was first being said to be our new 'b&b tool in neutral' for safety, I was like "oh sweet, so I'm guessing Bair is totally safe on a non PS?" And then the whole thing died down and I never got an answer. :p

So what I'm asking is, Bair - is it safe on block on all characters? If not, who can punish it and how? What about as a landing option? And would one get better results delaying the use of Bair on a SH until they're close to the ground or would it be better to use it as soon as you SH and then FF to the ground?
Bair is relatively safe on block. It's certainly the safest to say the least, so if you must use an aerial to land, this is your best bet.

I don't think it's perfectly safe on all characters, but a well spaced bair on some characters will be very hard to punish. I'm sure some characters can immediately dash out of their shield and get something off if their dash speed is fast enough.

Safest way is to get the bair as low to the ground as possible, so you can FF, land, and shield/dodge ASAP.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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Tell me about PK Thunder and what I should know to make its use as a recovery move as safe as possible.

Are there any moves that I should be afraid of clanking out PK Thunder before I wrap it around myself?

PKT2's invincibility seems to last as long as the sweetspot (Frames 1-10). Does it have a significant disjoint after that? Should I be afraid of opponents trading or outright beating it after a point?

Does it snap the ledge better horizontally or vertically (if at all)? Is there a point in the PKT2 animation where it won't snap to the ledge?

In general, what's the best angle/distance from the ledge to approach the ledge with PKT2 for maximum safety?
 
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Earthbound360

Smash Hero
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Bowie, MD
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Tell me about PK Thunder and what I should know to make its use as a recovery move as safe as possible.

Are there any moves that I should be afraid of clanking out PK Thunder before I wrap it around myself?

PKT2's invincibility seems to last as long as the sweetspot (Frames 1-10). Does it have a significant disjoint after that? Should I be afraid of opponents trading or outright beating it after a point?

Does it snap the ledge better horizontally or vertically (if at all)? Is there a point in the PKT2 animation where it won't snap to the ledge?

In general, what's the best angle/distance from the ledge to approach the ledge with PKT2 for maximum safety?
They key to making PKT2 as safe as possible is knowing its limits, and saving your DJ. Your DJ is perfect for recovery, combined with Ness' air dodge and quick aerials, you can get back with this alone about half the time.
The next step is to COVER your PKT2 recovery with your DJ. Don't ever try to use PKT2 if your opponent is close to you. Use your DJ plus an aerial to push them away and clear space for PKT2.
The second step is knowing PKT2's limits. Know the full distance it covers, know the angles you can access, and know how long it takes to hit yourself. Knowing the duration and angle of the tightest circle is useful for getting PKT2 to be safe on startup, and making people pay when they challenge it. Also realize that PKT pierces in the first few frames. The priority is actually quite ridiculous, transcendant I think, so don't be afraid to get close enough to people to challenge them with it. On PKT2, there are invincibility frames, so don't be afraid to challenge attacks with that either. Know the distance of this radius so that you know just how far from the ledge you can PKT2 and have invincibility for the full trip.

Any move pretty much breaks PKT if it's not in its piercing frames. Also watch out for absorbs and windboxes.

It has no disjoint, but it can't be beaten pretty much during the sweetspot. After it, it's quite easy to be hit out of.

PKT2 and Ness in general has a pretty generous ledgesnap range. The only time it won't grab is when PKT is out (as in the the bolt is traveling), or immediately after PKT2 ends and you are facing AWAY from the ledge (however, you can grab the ledge backwards during free fall).

The best angle varies, but my most used safe options are at the maximum distance of the PKT2 invincibility, and right below the ledge with a perfectly vertical shot upwards.
 

EarthBoundEnigma

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 4, 2014
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EST
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This might be deserving of its own thread, but what is the optimal approach to sudden death?
My sudden death success rate in For Glory is an abysmal 40% and credit most of my successes to shielding attacks and punishing, rather than actually attacking and winning. In the rare cases where it is an option, PKT is a 1HKO in sudden death, but against players that know what they're doing, it won't be an option. (Except in team FG, where it works near-perfectly)

I have an 88% winrate in For Glory, but lose most games that go to sudden death.
I could push that winrate higher if only I didn't lose so frequently to players that stall and get their 1HKO.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
I need anyone with tourney experience here, preferably a Ness main. I'm going to my first tourney at the end of this month and I would like to know the following:

  1. Which stages are starters?
  2. Which stages should a Ness main counterpick and ban?
  3. What should I expect from my first tourney?

I understand that these are kind of just basic Smash related questions rather than Ness ones, but for my first tourney, I would like to know what I'm getting myself into and know which stages I should go to and which ones to avoid, that way I don't waste the time of other tourneygoers while I'm there. If you can give additional advice as to why a certain stage is better than another, that would be beneficial for me. Say I have to go against Sonic and you tell me not to go to a stage with a lower ceiling because I can die early. Stuff like that would be helpful to know, that way I can go off what I've been told here. Thanks.
 

Earthbound360

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I need anyone with tourney experience here, preferably a Ness main. I'm going to my first tourney at the end of this month and I would like to know the following:

  1. Which stages are starters?
  2. Which stages should a Ness main counterpick and ban?
  3. What should I expect from my first tourney?

I understand that these are kind of just basic Smash related questions rather than Ness ones, but for my first tourney, I would like to know what I'm getting myself into and know which stages I should go to and which ones to avoid, that way I don't waste the time of other tourneygoers while I'm there. If you can give additional advice as to why a certain stage is better than another, that would be beneficial for me. Say I have to go against Sonic and you tell me not to go to a stage with a lower ceiling because I can die early. Stuff like that would be helpful to know, that way I can go off what I've been told here. Thanks.
1. Depends on where you go typically, but for my region it's FD, BF, Smashville, T&C, and Lylat.
2. It's character dependent mostly, but I almost always ban Lylat. That stage ruins your use of PKF, gimps you hard, and the platforms don't help Ness much as they ruin dthrow > fair combos and he doesn't shark all that well.
Your mentality for striking stages should be "What stage does this character do better on than me?" For example, when I play against ROB players, I'm more likely ban Halberd because of its low ceiling. Against Luigi, I might ban BF because I don't wanna get locked on a platform, sharked with uairs, and give him a confined space to work with. It's all about knowing the characters, the stages they like, and taking that away from them.
3. Expect to have your fundamentals tested. If it's your first tourney, your matchup experience will be more limited, so you won't be able to rely on as much matchup specific stuff unless you've been REALLY reading up on things and can implement them that quickly. As a result, you'll have to just depend on the basics that you know work. Also, people go into a much more focused state when their tourney placing is on the line as opposed to friendlies, so try your best to stay focused and not get nervous.

Good luck friend.
 

Uffe

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Fresno
1. Depends on where you go typically, but for my region it's FD, BF, Smashville, T&C, and Lylat.
2. It's character dependent mostly, but I almost always ban Lylat. That stage ruins your use of PKF, gimps you hard, and the platforms don't help Ness much as they ruin dthrow > fair combos and he doesn't shark all that well.
Your mentality for striking stages should be "What stage does this character do better on than me?" For example, when I play against ROB players, I'm more likely ban Halberd because of its low ceiling. Against Luigi, I might ban BF because I don't wanna get locked on a platform, sharked with uairs, and give him a confined space to work with. It's all about knowing the characters, the stages they like, and taking that away from them.
3. Expect to have your fundamentals tested. If it's your first tourney, your matchup experience will be more limited, so you won't be able to rely on as much matchup specific stuff unless you've been REALLY reading up on things and can implement them that quickly. As a result, you'll have to just depend on the basics that you know work. Also, people go into a much more focused state when their tourney placing is on the line as opposed to friendlies, so try your best to stay focused and not get nervous.

Good luck friend.
Thanks, this is all good advice. Hearing more from others would be good. But I understand what you're saying. I don't have a Wii U, so I'm not all that familiar with the stages or their selections. I think I'm more likely to see a Luigi somewhere along the way. I would have not thought about getting caught with Luigi's combos on Battlefield's platforms, so knowing this early on is good. I'm not too worried about the d-throw > fair set up. I use it, but I feel like my opponents expect it, so I kind of do other things after the d-throw. I've been nervous previously when going up against other players online alone, but over the months it has dwindled down. I'll need to keep my composure, though, that's for sure. I tend to get nervous when my opponent is really doing good against me. And thanks for the good luck. :)
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Joined
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Hey Ness mains, I'm looking to pick up Ness.

What are some must know techs to be competitive?
Are they mostly PK fire related?
 

PKBeam

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general stuff includes familiarising yourself with Ness, with focus on what you can get out of PKF/Dthrow.

ATs:
  • the double PKT2 off a wallbounce thing
  • FH PKF can be lag cancelled with Uair or Dair
  • magnet cancel by inputting a roll, spotdodge or jump while absorbing
  • you can reflect any and all projectiles with Fsmash
and for bonus points:
  • PK Jump
  • Thundersliding
some cool things to know
  • Usmash hits behind him frame 6
  • Uair also kills on the ground
  • Nair can be used twice from a SH, and after a SH airdodge
  • PKT2 has invincibility frames at the start (i.e. the sweetspot)
 

Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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Perfect just what i wanted, thanks

Got pkJump down, but whats thundersliding? Cant find it in the stickies :)
 
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Meccs

@Meccs_
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
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708
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Boston
For stages, I would say it is almost entirely matchup dependent. Ness doesnt have any inherintly bad stages really, so focus on where your opponent excels. Like against Sonic/ZSS/Diddy (maybe not nearly as much anymore)/ROB, you want to get rid of low ceilings, so avoid Delfino, Halberd, and Town and City. I usually don't like Lylat, but the one tine I've played there recently I beat a good Sonic and lost on Duck Hunt so who the hell knows. I picked Lylat because against Sonic, having those platforms was worth more to me than having a non-tilting stage for PK Fire on the more 'open' choice I had of Smashville.
 

EarthBoundEnigma

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This might be deserving of its own thread, but what is the optimal approach to sudden death?
My sudden death success rate in For Glory is an abysmal 40% and credit most of my successes to shielding attacks and punishing, rather than actually attacking and winning. In the rare cases where it is an option, PKT is a 1HKO in sudden death, but against players that know what they're doing, it won't be an option. (Except in team FG, where it works near-perfectly)

I have an 88% winrate in For Glory, but lose most games that go to sudden death.
I could push that winrate higher if only I didn't lose so frequently to players that stall and get their 1HKO.
Anyone? I've been having a really frustrating time with stall players that are good at sudden death and could really use some advice.
 

Earthbound360

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Anyone? I've been having a really frustrating time with stall players that are good at sudden death and could really use some advice.
I don't know that much since i don't do FG that much these days, and in tournament sudden death isn't a thing.

Ness' neutral isn't that great, but I will state that PKT KOs in sudden death. Know your opponent's tools before trying this though, there are some characters I wouldn't try it against.
Other than that, nair is probably your best bet. Usmash comes out on frame 6 behind him, but you're dead if you miss. Grab is still a decent option.
 

rosetta_stoned

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
75
Anyone? I've been having a really frustrating time with stall players that are good at sudden death and could really use some advice.

I take my stats with a grain of salt in fg but i noticed a few weeks ago perusing them that my win rate in sudden death was in the 90's. Though i hate it when it goes into sudden death and i also dont feel like im particularly good at it ill share my thoughts anyway.

1.) if i know its going to go into sudden death i start mentally planning immediately even before the match is over (like last 30 sec or less kinda thing). Your opponent is likely just running away from you but if not i might try and start testing what attacks or counters i can safely land on them - depending, im not going to do anything that would cost me the actual match or miss an opportunity to avoid sudden death altogether -that would be stupid.

2.) you've gained alot of info from them over the last 6 or 8 min (forget what the time is on fg atm). Are they an aggressive or defensive player? How did they react at the start of the match as well? Use this info to decide if its better for yourself to be aggressive or defensive.

3.) what are they're cheap cop-outs? Nobody seems to care about style points they will likely go for whats easiest / cheapest. Do these attacks have any punishes you can exploit? Many characters have the same go-tos you should know to expect.

I dont feel comfortable in suggesting this as it can be a huge risk and theres just too many factors that go into whether ill try it but ive won sudden death a stupid amount of times by just running at them until just out of their attack range -> sh psi magnet for the timing stall afterwhich more often than not they see an "opening " on which i get them with a ff nair after they've done me a favour by closing the distance.

I like to be very unorthodox in my play and this goes beyond sudden death. Either with an attack or timing that they're not expecting. But some safe options are always;

Spot dodge -> sh nair, grab, dsmash, utilt

Oos -> grab, sh nair

I like to get them in the air too after spacing with some fairs and nairs and baiting them into attacking which ill airdodge and do whatever after.

Ill use pkt if the opportunity arrises but i hate winning this way and its just way too risky usually. But ill be lame and irritating if thats what they were doing to get us here in the first place lol
 
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Douchuumen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
28
What's Ness supposed to do in the neutral game? He doesn't look like he has many good options.
 

Earthbound360

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Neutral air to trade
Bair low to the ground to hit shields safely
Tomahawk for grabs
Low ground uairs to for late attack mindgames
 

jset818

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
51
I recently started playing with this Luigi player that I met through another friend. Now I know he doesn't follow the competitive scene or read up on frame data. But the way he plays is super lame and I have no idea how to counter it.

He plays super defensive and just spot dodge 24/7. He would spam fireballs and wait for me to approach him then he would spot dodge and jab/grab or upsmash/dsmash. When he's not spot dodging he would spam fireballs and SH fair to create a wall and slowly push me to the edge, if he sees me trying to magnet or shield he would dash up behind the fireball and grab me. And because Luigi's frame data are so good, I feel like there is nothing I can do to punish his spot dodge, jabs, grabs, or smash attacks. 1 grab = 50%. Around 100% is when he looks for opportunity to upsmash. If I block the upsmash, it pushes me away (not sure if I can dash up and grab). Dsmash comes out so quick and recovers fast (7 frames), no way I can punish that.

Should I try faking him out and wait for him to spot dodge? Isn't that too risky. It just seems so easy for him to punish everything I do, like I have no safe options.

Also, should I be using Fair or Nair more in a neutral game? I find Fair great for pressuring shield and disrupting their aerial attacks. But the recovery is longer and is more easily punishable if they dash under me and grab. Nair just feels so short that it seems like every time I throw it out, I get hit by their air attacks. Please advise.
 
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Earthbound360

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Mikman360
I recently started playing with this Luigi player that I met through another friend. Now I know he doesn't follow the competitive scene or read up on frame data. But the way he plays is super lame and I have no idea how to counter it.

He plays super defensive and just spot dodge 24/7. He would spam fireballs and wait for me to approach him then he would spot dodge and jab/grab or upsmash/dsmash. When he's not spot dodging he would spam fireballs and SH fair to create a wall and slowly push me to the edge, if he sees me trying to magnet or shield he would dash up behind the fireball and grab me. And because Luigi's frame data are so good, I feel like there is nothing I can do to punish his spot dodge, jabs, grabs, or smash attacks. 1 grab = 50%. Around 100% is when he looks for opportunity to upsmash. If I block the upsmash, it pushes me away (not sure if I can dash up and grab). Dsmash comes out so quick and recovers fast (7 frames), no way I can punish that.

Should I try faking him out and wait for him to spot dodge? Isn't that too risky. It just seems so easy for him to punish everything I do, like I have no safe options.

Also, should I be using Fair or Nair more in a neutral game? I find Fair great for pressuring shield and disrupting their aerial attacks. But the recovery is longer and is more easily punishable if they dash under me and grab. Nair just feels so short that it seems like every time I throw it out, I get hit by their air attacks. Please advise.
Fireball spam is easy to deal with using Ness. Magnet absorb those babies, and roll backwards or SH to magnet cancel them. Magnet cancelling is a HUGE help in this matchup and I highly suggest you learn how to do it.
Do NOT shield fireballs. That's asking to get grabbed. Jump and attack Luigi if you can, or just bail. If you shield one, roll or spot dodge ASAP.

Don't desperately fish for grabs with Ness. There are other things you can do. Nairs will probably be your best bet at beating spot dodges. You might wanna try pivot grabs too (run through the spot dodge, pivot grab to catch him on return). You can also try usmash, but prepare to be punished if you time it wrong.

Your full hop fair should beat his SH fair, and nair trades positively against it. Just try not to let him bully you to the ledge. There's much less room to dodge grabs at the ledge.

As for the smash attacks, usmash should pose the biggest threat. Even then I'm pretty certain you can still punish it on block. If not, run up and go for a mixup. If he's likely to spot dodge, SH nair should nail him, and with proper DI and spacing afterwards, I can't see him punishing you. Dsmash shouldn't be too problematic if you're going for aerial approaches. Ness can SH right over that and punish with a nair/uair on landing.

It sounds to me that you are getting too "grabby." Don't mount your entire offense on grabs, because it sounds like he's well equipped to handle that. Try to mix in aerial approaches against him. Ness can beat Luigi in the air if you're smart about it. SH more instead of grabbing all the time.
It also sounds like you're not taking advantage of Luigi's terrible OoS game. He slides so much that well spaced aerials on shield can be pretty unpunishable for him. I want to take this time to specifically mention bair; do one close to the ground from a SH and Luigi will have an incredibly hard time punishing it. You can be pretty lame with this one.
 

Douchuumen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
28
Thanks for the response.

Next question; how do you effectively aim PK Thunder to hit with the tail? I try to edgeguard with it but more often than not I'll hit with the head or not hit at all. Also, is there an effective way to set up PKT2 traps from an edgeguard?
 

Earthbound360

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
5,725
Location
Bowie, MD
NNID
Mikman360
Thanks for the response.

Next question; how do you effectively aim PK Thunder to hit with the tail? I try to edgeguard with it but more often than not I'll hit with the head or not hit at all. Also, is there an effective way to set up PKT2 traps from an edgeguard?
First you have to analyze your opponent's reaction to an oncoming PKT (but I'll admit, 80% of my opponents react the same way).
Send PKT at them, then curve PKT just in front of them based on what you think they'll do. Loop it such that PKT stays at a relevant range even if you read them wrong, or such that you can hit yourself or the stage and save yourself from the recovery lag.

For example, if they air dodge, loop PKT just in front of their face such that PKT catches the air dodge with either the head or the tail. If they attack the head, curve PKT so that the head stays JUST out of their range, then they'll hit the tail and hurt themselves. If they use other moves such as reflectors or momentum shifting moves, you'll have to plan accordingly. Stall PKT around them until they drop the reflector (they have to eventually, if they're recovering) and strike after. If it's a momentum shifting move, put PKT in the anticipated pathway.

PKT2 doesn't have any guaranteed setups, but there's always the PKT2 reverse edgeguard. Stand at the ledge and send PKT out towards the ledge such that the opponent is conditioned into recovering on stage behind you. Bring PKT back to yourself, and PKT2 into them. Figure eights seem to work most effectively.
 
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