Q&A Have a Question? We'll give you a "Hint" - Ness Question/Answer Thread (CHECK HERE)

[ilysm]

Hm. Ok. Seems reasonable, I suppose. Also, I was kidding in the first part of my post. No worries, dude.

Anyhow, both PKT2 and I'm pretty sure Fair are punishable on shield. Fair can net you a shield grab if they don't fade away, but a smart player will fade back if they hit shield. I'd look at your character's out-of-shield options other than grab. Maybe a short hop out of shield followed by an aerial (this is character dependent obviously) would net you a successful punish.

And airdodge is tricky to say 'it'll work all the time' or 'it won't work at all'. It's sort of a grey area. The meta of the neutral in your match really impacts your decision here. Airdodge will get out out of some dthrow-fair combos (depending again on character weight, percentage, and DI; sometimes it's guaranteed, but not all the time--maybe not even often). Assuming you're playing against a smart Ness (or at the very least someone who knows you pretty well), they might bait out an airdodge with an empty jump, and then punish you in the landing lag. So the best advice I can give in this sense is to make sure your DI is crispy, then get a feel for what followup they'll be going for and act accordingly. If they're going in, dodge away and cancel the dodge lag to come back swinging. If they're baiting the dodge, punish (or retreat, depending on which is more advantageous). It's a bit of prediction, a bit of reaction. Kinda difficult. Or, if your character has a very fast combo-breaker option, like Luigi's nair, you can utilize that. But, I mean, Fair is a good combo tool. Sometimes you won't be able to get out of it. The above might be your best bet, though some of my fellow Ness mains may have something to add. Idk.

Also, do not try to footsool Ness while the bolt is out. You will get blown up. I've seen many experienced players have tried to do this and it pretty much never ends well. The only time you want to jump on top of him is when you're trying to stunt the distance the rocket travels, since the curling tail hitbox will lock you in place long enough for him to blast you unless your SDI is beyond on-point (in which case you've basically accomplished nothing aside from damaging yourself and putting yourself off stage).

 

[Ranias]

There's also PKT2. Massive damage and knockback, difficult to punish after you shield it. Heck, there was a time I was convinced the move was unshieldable. There was never a game where the move was that fast with that large of a hitbox. The only foolproof strategy I have is when I'm playing a character with a counter. No possibility of a trade that way. Shieldgrabbing is ineffective since he'll blow through you. I'm intrigued by allowing yourself to get hit by it to stunt some of the distance, but maybe going for a footstool as the bolt is wrapping around is best. And thank you for the information on his specials.

The start of PKT2 is invincible, so you can't punish then. If they PKT2 onto the stage, you can try shielding/dodging it and chasing for a grab or smash (towards the end of it). You can't shield grab it because it knocks you back too far or passes through you.

As for gimping PKT2 recovery, you can body-block the PK Thunder just before it hits Ness. You also don't want chance getting hit by the PKT2 if you are at anything beyond low percent, because you will likely die.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Non-Ness main here, if this was asked already you are allowed to tear me to shreds with dthrow followups.

Anyway, If I get dthrowed, I noticed that I can DI to Ness's direction to avoid fair followups. Any good Ness player would obviously just uair me. My question is, what option should I prefer and why?
My guess is DI to Ness at lower percentages to avoid combo strings and DI away from Ness at kill percentages to avoid dying to uair and to avoid followups completely.

 

[Tikao]

one uair = 13% / 2-3 fairs = 14%-21%

also depends on your position, if ness can get you offstage with fairs, then you lose way more momentum then just eating an uair after dthrow

but depending on your character, it could be harder for you to land vs ness after an uair, since ness is right under you after an uair rather than to the side after some fairs

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm pretty sure even if you DI above Ness, he can full hop backwards and still get an fair in. The only thing is, he has to see it coming since you have to commit to forward momentum fairs. I'd just mix it up between the 2 DI choices if I were you.

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

Another non-ness main here. (Pit) I seem to be decemated by Ness every time I play against my friend. My main problem is PK Fire. It is easy to land, and I am punished very heavily when I am stuck inside it. I can also never seem to avoid it because it is thrown at me whenever I'm on the ground. When I try to approach with a shorthop, I'm punished with his utilt or usmash. Even trying to roll into him doesn't work because he always prepares an fsmash. Long range also won't work because my only option is light arrorws. Do you have any tips on how I can play against him?

 

[Ranias]

Another non-ness main here. (Pit) I seem to be decemated by Ness every time I play against my friend. My main problem is PK Fire. It is easy to land, and I am punished very heavily when I am stuck inside it. I can also never seem to avoid it because it is thrown at me whenever I'm on the ground. When I try to approach with a shorthop, I'm punished with his utilt or usmash. Even trying to roll into him doesn't work because he always prepares an fsmash. Long range also won't work because my only option is light arrorws. Do you have any tips on how I can play against him?

Rolling towards your opponent in general is sort of asking for a punish.

Practice approaching by running/walking and powershielding the PK Fires. Also, if you can predict him using the PK Fire, using your Guardian Orbitars to reflect them back is extremely rewarding.

You can also use your Guardian Orbitars as a gimping tool against the PK Thunder recovery. You can push Ness around in the beginning of the cast and make him miss hitting his body with it. You can also use the invincibility of Guardian Orbitars to body block Ness's recovery and shorten it by about half, hopefully killing him.

A great example of a good (Dark) Pit vs. Ness gameplay is in this video of Nairo vs. NAKAT: http://youtu.be/SM1MhdSKdUU?t=4m25s

 

[ChemicalExperiment]

Rolling towards your opponent in general is sort of asking for a punish.

Practice approaching by running/walking and powershielding the PK Fires. Also, if you can predict him using the PK Fire, using your Guardian Orbitars to reflect them back is extremely rewarding.

You can also use your Guardian Orbitars as a gimping tool against the PK Thunder recovery. You can push Ness around in the beginning of the cast and make him miss hitting his body with it. You can also use the invincibility of Guardian Orbitars to body block Ness's recovery and shorten it by about half, hopefully killing him.

A great example of a good (Dark) Pit vs. Ness gameplay is in this video of Nairo vs. NAKAT: http://youtu.be/SM1MhdSKdUU?t=4m25s

Thanks! I'll try powersheilding the PK Fire next time, and tell you how it goes. Also, I've actually been really good against Ness once I get him offstage, and I've reflected 1 or 2 recovery attempts in what I've tried.

 

[Funkermonster]

Would you say Ness Buffed or Nerfed overall?

 

[Noa.]

Ness in smash 4 is a stronger character than Ness in brawl was. The way that his advantages and disadvantages compare to the cast in smash 4 makes him a tournament threat, while on brawl he is on the very border of viability.

 

[Earthbound360]

Would you say Ness Buffed or Nerfed overall?

From a strict change perspective from Brawl to Smash 4, he actually received more nerfs than buffs.

However, as I have come to learn this does not dictate the overall viability of the character, and Ness has proven to be at his strongest state compared to any Smash game based on relativity to others.

 

[ilysm]

Not really a Ness-specific question, per se, but more of a poll; what types of controllers do you guys use? I haven't been able to get my hands on a Gamecube Controller Adapter at a reasonable price, and have been using the gamepad in the meantime. It feels so awkward whenever I try to do my aerials! I've also tried Wiimote + Nunchuck, but that's even worse. Any advice on how to get a GC controller working, or tips for practicing with other control schemes?

 

[PSIBoy]

Not really a Ness-specific question, per se, but more of a poll; what types of controllers do you guys use? I haven't been able to get my hands on a Gamecube Controller Adapter at a reasonable price, and have been using the gamepad in the meantime. It feels so awkward whenever I try to do my aerials! I've also tried Wiimote + Nunchuck, but that's even worse. Any advice on how to get a GC controller working, or tips for practicing with other control schemes?

I've been using the Gamepad though with online I use 3DS since I still haven't mastered using the c-stick. I'm still getting adjusted. Many people recommend the Wii U Pro controller, but I have been unable to find one below $50. Your choice if you want to invest $50 into a single controller or not.

 

[ilysm]

The problem is that I'm in a position where I can't really put forth more than $20 (USD, that is) which is the price of the actual adapter, without the recent wild inflation factored in.

 

[PSIBoy]

The problem is that I'm in a position where I can't really put forth more than $20 (USD, that is) which is the price of the actual adapter, without the recent wild inflation factored in.

Well, then I don't know. If you have a 3DS, you can use it or you can adapt to the Gamepad. Sorry I can't help you more.

 

[ilysm]

No prob. I'm getting the hang of it. I'll settle until a restock.

 

[OnettGirl]

So as a person who's been recently playing around with Ness the past week i'm thinking I want to make him a secondary, if not my main [considering i've seen more results in the past week playing Ness than I have with Pit since launch]. Aside from the insane struggle of getting his blasted recovery to work with me online [input lag is the bane of my existence] i've had a bit of a personal question on my mind. I tried looking around and I couldn't find a definitive answer [unless i'm totally blind in which I apologize] but is Ness better with tap-jump on or off?

I personally am a person who's had tap-jump so far engrained into their reflexes that it's really hard for me to break the habit, but if Ness does at some point become more than a secondary to me would it be in my best interest to force myself to play with tap-jump off? I know it depends greatly on the character [especially their tilts] but I've never really considered playing Ness in a serious manner up until this point, so the only things I know are the guides on here and watching videos where you can't really tell if tap-jump is on or off. I'd just like to get the opinion of someone who actually knows how to play Ness and not just asking my friends who's answers can be best summed up as "I dunno".

Thanks in advance for the advice

 

[Freikugel]

Is d-air lag cancel better than n-air's?

I've read that Ness' n-air has great utility, but I only ever use it for edgeguarding, sometimes out of shield (I grab OoS), and rarely to end combos. Some people call d-air cancel situational, but I think it's a valuable fakeout tool that also enables Ness to land safely.

Am I missing anything? What are some practical applications for n-air overall, especially over d-air's lag cancel? Does n-air set up anything? Been trying to incorporate it as a mix-up, but it's been underwhelming so far.

 

[Ranias]

I play with Tap Jump off. Although, I mostly just play on 3ds.

I don't see any benefit of leaving it on for Ness.

If you are able to Up Air and Up B with Tap Jump on consistently though, there is no reason for you to turn it off.

 

[ilysm]

Regarding tap jump, I instinctively have it on for a silly reason; in Project M I need tap jump to do quick DJCs while retaining directional control. But DJC'ing is not a thing in Smash 4. I've now just realised there's no real reason for me to have it on. Huh. *^_^

Regarding nair, I use it as a quick approach because it's fairly safe and easy to fade back with to avoid a punish. I also occasionally use it as a combo breaker on unsuspecting opponents, though this I do it more often than I should; another bad habit from PM, where it comes out faster. As far as lag cancelling goes, as far as I can tell no aerial has a real advantage over another, considering the cancel only works if the hitbox on the attack does not come out--someone correct me if I'm wrong. Though nair itself does not have a ton of landing lag afaik, so it is probably a safer landing option for small (but not absolutely minimum) lag. Nair can also be used as an edgeguard--rising nair against characters like Falcon and Ganon works wonders. It can even push people into the blast-zone sometimes, with rage and/or at high percents. It even works as a last-ditch combo ender, if you might as well tack on some percentage and can't finish with anything else.

 

[Earthbound360]

I really recommend tap jump off for Ness. If you ever get hit out of an "up" move and are forced to recover, you'll be forced to use PKT2 to recover on its own, which is BAD news most of the time. Plus, it lets you use that godlike uair near the ground.

Nair is a great edgeguard, meaty enough to punish some dodge moves, has a LOT of priority, speed, nice range, and hits on both sides. It's great for OoS, edguarding, c-c-c-combo breaker, and dodge prediction to an extent. However, dair is indeed a better lag cancelling move. I'm actually working on a video guide for PKF displaying how dair can and should be used to lag cancel. Dair has a larger early window to cancel than any other aerial.

 

[OnettGirl]

Alright. I've been working on getting the timing down for PKT off the ground [which really isn't that hard], and most of the time when I use an arial I just use my C-stick which so far has been fairly reliable. [In hindsight I probably should have mentioned I have a gamecube adapter and that i'm on Wii U.] So getting off uair's [or really any arial] near the ground hasn't really been an issue. I've pretty much spent the last 4 hours in training mode just practicing the timing on most of the techs I could find on here, taking priority in learning how to thunderbounce consistently. [Well...recover with PKT consistently in general. I was never good with his recovery but it's getting easier...when there's no other competitors around ] These wall mechanics are really weird... I'll try both tap jump on and off just to see what he feels like with both. If it makes that much of a difference I'll just have to grit and bare it. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

 

[lmntolp]

The one biggest reason I'm going to turn tap jump off after years of having it on is to do short hop uairs ASAP. It's easy enough to uair while falling with a c-stick, but if I try to do a short hop rising uair it can easily turn into a jump-cancelled usmash, which is a shame if I spot a quick uair kill opportunity. You can get around this by using the jump button and c-stick, but that's the same as having tap jump off. (Plus I don't have a c-stick on my 3DS ).

 

[rekt]

Hey, is there a way we can get a sticky'ed "Ness Advanced Techniques and Gameplay Discussion" thread? Just picked him up and I'm really liking him. I'd love to have a thread to read through with useful techs and strats for the little guy.

Thanks

 

[ilysm]

I think the PSI-Powered Youth Game Play General thread is for that.

 

[rekt]

I think the PSI-Powered Youth Game Play General thread is for that.

Thanks, another question. When doing PKT2 off of a wall bounce, I can only seem to do it on the right side of a FD stage, not the left. Any idea why?

 

[PK Tripping]

Thanks, another question. When doing PKT2 off of a wall bounce, I can only seem to do it on the right side of a FD stage, not the left. Any idea why?

It's just like that for some weird reason. In order to use PKT again from the left side you have to hit perpendicular, which isn't helpful.

 

[rekt]

It's just like that for some weird reason. In order to use PKT again from the left side you have to hit perpendicular, which isn't helpful.

Really? Ugh. Well when I bounce off the wall from the right I typically only go perpendicular but it allows me to angle properly to get back to the ledge. That's a really stupid glitch, and I'm calling it that because its an inconsistency... I'm glad Nintendo has time to nerf Bowser's Klaw but not fix a rather dumb glitch with Ness...

 

[Earthbound360]

Really? Ugh. Well when I bounce off the wall from the right I typically only go perpendicular but it allows me to angle properly to get back to the ledge. That's a really stupid glitch, and I'm calling it that because its an inconsistency... I'm glad Nintendo has time to nerf Bowser's Klaw but not fix a rather dumb glitch with Ness...

You might wanna check this out:
http://smashboards.com/guides/surviving-mortal-damage.151/

 

[ilysm]

If you bounce off the left side and you still have a lightning aura, then you haven't done it steep enough basically. In every Smash game, left walls have been weirder than right ones. Nobody really knows why. That makes the Thunderbounce a lot less useful on the left side. The upside to this is that the left wall gives you a wider margin for error if you want to 'slide' (Thunderslide?) up the side of it.

 

[rekt]

Thanks to both. I'll practice it more on the left side haha.

 

[Piggyman86]

link is impossible how do i beat him.... give me rosalina and diddy any day over link...

 

[EpyEgghead]

link is impossible how do i beat him.... give me rosalina and diddy any day over link...

HAH not impossible but can be super duper annoying. I feel your pain my friend :D

 

[rekt]

His aerial game is rather lackluster(I think), best I can think of is to remain in his face and out-grab him because of his laggy grab.

Just recently started playing Ness, so don't believe what I say unless someone agrees with me.

 

[PKBeam]

in this MU he's mostly limited to arrows and boomerang (because of magnet absorbing bombs). don't reflect boomerang because it only pushes him away from you, don't reflect arrows either. makes it easier to approach.

I wouldn't stay in his range for long, do some damage, get out and pressure him in mid range, where he can't use arrow or boomerang safely and he can't rely on bombs to help him get out. Don't try to punish a well spaced Jab/Ftilt/Dtilt unless you powershield.

In the air, Link's Nair is AMAZING. It comes out super fast, SHFF Nair -> Jab is really good on shields if you shieldgrab too slow and the hitbox stays out for very long. His Zair and Fair beat our Fair cleanly so don't go for obvious aerials. If you're in the air and you have to airdodge, do it while fast falling and/or moving in a direction because Uair kills . If he uses Dair you can start PKT2, otherwise don't let it hit your shield and bounce and Fsmash the ending lag. Some Links might fast fall Nair to do a landing or fast fall so pick up on that and punish accordingly.
Also, DO NOT Uair predictably. Dair can kill you as early as 70 in the air.

Offstage, it's very easy to edgeguard Link. You can Dair Spin Attack or PKF/Fsmash it if he goes just a little too high. When chasing, try to bait and airdodge and Nair him. Just be mindful that if he knows he's going down he might try to take you with him.

Also, Link can kill you with his entire moveset.
Utilt at 120
Dtilt at 160
Ftilt at 140
Usmash at 110
Dsmash at 120
Fsmash at 90
Uair at 90-110
Dair ar 150
Fair at 150
Uthrow at 150
Spin Attack at 120

Be very careful how you pressure his shield at high% and never airdodge predictably. Always keep his whole list of kill moves in mid otherwise you'll get nailed by something like Utilt or Spin Attack and start wondering "How the hell did that happen?"

 

[ilysm]

Does anybody have a list of moves that start off jab locks pretty well? I was practicing it today and jab -> jab -> jab -> fsmash seems like a really strong option. Nair should probably work at low percents (given weight differences etc.), but is there anything specific I should be using? The idea is to catch people off-guard so they're startled enough they forget to tech.

 

[PKBeam]

Basically Nair, Fair, maybe Ftilt. Dair ... maybe... Utilt?

 

[Earthbound360]

Best way is probably nair if they miss the tech.

Fair is a bit too floaty for anyone to really not tech it. Same with utilt. Dair doesn't work since you bounce in this game, and it'll take too long for you to move in for a jab after ftilt.

If you manage to shove them off of the lower platform on BF in their shield, they'll get grounded. Also, if you footstool them close enough to the ground, that'll work too.

I really want to find a way to get consistent footstools near the ground though. It could lead to some ludicrously low percentage KOs with Ness since I'm pretty sure jab x3 into PKT2 combos.

 

[yoshi8984]

More of a specific MU related question, but how do you get around DHD's Frisbee? I swear that move is extremely silly.

 

[Tod Comod]

Question I'm having a problem with f-air combos after down throw. A lot of players seem to just air dodge out of it right away unless they're not so good. What am I doing wrong when I've had other Ness do what feels like an un-air dodgeable combo?