Greninja's True Combos

[Marilink]

Martin, I have a lot of trouble setting things up with Nair, even after reading your instructions. Could you/someone make a video about Nair followups for us?

 

[Shack]

I agree with most of this. Nair is also my favorite approach move. If you SHFF it, it becomes Greninja`s safest move because the hitbox lasts from the top of your short hop until you land on the ground and then you can immediately follow up with any attack, grab, dash or roll. And since it hits from every side around you, you can angle your short hops in a way that makes it hardest for your opponent to intercept the Nair with their attacks. Even the priority on it seems to be good from my experience. What makes you think it isn`t?
It also deals good damage and combos into Jab or Dtilt at low %, into sweetspot Usmash at mid %, then the sourspot hit combos into Usmash at mid-high % and into Fair at high %, both of which are kill combos. I actually think Nair is Greninja`s best move now after the nerfs to all of its moves that used to be better.

I also partially agree that Greninja has trouble killing because most of its kill combos can be DI`d out of. Dtilt -> Usmash and Uthrow -> Uair can be avoided by DI-ing upwards and Utilt -> Uair is not so good because Utilt isn`t easy to land and is very punishable if shielded.
- Most of my kills come from Bair gimps off stage which are really good.
- Dash Attack -> Fair works too.
- Charged Water Shuriken is safe and kills pretty early, especially if landed off stage.
- Hydro Pump sometimes sets up into Usmash if you hit the opponent while they`re in the air and sometimes it still gimps.
- Shadow Sneak tricks are nice as well, but you have to get creative because each one usually only works once.
- Another thing that often works for me is going for Uthrow -> Uair and if they DI or dodge, I fall with them while continuously using Uair to force them to keep dodging. And because I am slightly below them, I will land first and immediately Dsmash or Fsmash to punish their laggy landing from dodging into the ground.
- Then you have combos like Dtilt -> Usmash that work unless the opponents DI upwards, but then instead of Usmash you can combo them with Uair. Same goes for Nair -> Usmash, Nair -> Fair and Nair -> Uair.
- Even Dair is good against characters with vertical recoveries like Diddy, Ike, King DDD, Link...
- And if all else fails, Uthrow can kill by itself starting from 150-170% depending on the character and rage.

So while Greninja doesn`t have any Diddy-level reliable kill combos, it has many different options to choose from. And because the opponent cannot be sure what to expect and which way to DI, you can often pull off combos that would be easily avoidable as long as you keep mixing it up and staying unpredictable. This is what makes Greninja so interesting for me to play and watch. I can often play several matches during which I get every kill using a different move or combo.

The main reason I say that his NAir has low priority is because I see myself get hit out of it often and even see it happen during tournament matches, especially against those with swords or longer range. Also because his short hop is a little high, you have to wait before using it, which doesn't always get the hitbox out fast enough. I guess it is a well balanced move, but just sucks that other characters have stronger NAirs and grounded moves that counter it.

Yeah I agree with everything you said, the UThrow KO is a shame though. By the time you get them to 160ish, your combos no longer work and you give them many opportunities for a come back. I really hope he gets some kind of buff, even if it is less recovery on a jab so you can FSmash reliably out of it.

 

[MartinAW4]

Martin, I have a lot of trouble setting things up with Nair, even after reading your instructions. Could you/someone make a video about Nair followups for us?

Unfortunately I don`t have a good camera for taking videos of 3DS gameplay. But I can at least give you some more tips. Which follow-ups are you having trouble with?
Nair -> Jab and Nair -> Dtilt are easy to perform at low % and are very reliable, so I assume these aren`t causing problems.
I think the most difficult ones are:
sweetspot Nair -> Utilt -> sweetspot Usmash at 6-24%
sweetspot Nair -> sweetspot Usmash at 25-60%
sourspot Nair -> sweetspot Usmash at 60-100%
I can`t perform them consistently either, but they are easiest to perform by landing the Nair from a dash. This will make you slide a little towards the opponent and make it easier for you to reach them with a hyphen Usmash.
The angle from which you hit the Nair influences the angle at which they get launched. If you hit them from the side, they get launched farther to the side which makes it harder to follow up, so you should try to hit them directly from above, especially when going for the Nair -> Utilt -> Usmash combo.

@ Shack
I see what you mean. It is more risky to Nair approach characters with longer ranged moves. In those cases I usually aim my Nairs slightly in front of them to stay out of their reach or hit them if they move forward. If they stay in place, I can immediately jab them and if they back off, I can follow them with another SHFF Nair. Or you can make use of Nair`s hitboxes that surround you to approach from an angle to avoid the opponent`s main way of punishing it. But this is more of a range problem than priority. I`ve never had Nair clash or be cancelled by any other move. Unless I get hit during the small start-up lag, Nair usually goes through everything, so I think the priority on it is great.

 

[Marilink]

Yeah, I should have been more specific, I was mostly having trouble with Nair > Utilt/Usmash. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Shack]

@ Shack
I see what you mean. It is more risky to Nair approach characters with longer ranged moves. In those cases I usually aim my Nairs slightly in front of them to stay out of their reach or hit them if they move forward. If they stay in place, I can immediately jab them and if they back off, I can follow them with another SHFF Nair. Or you can make use of Nair`s hitboxes that surround you to approach from an angle to avoid the opponent`s main way of punishing it. But this is more of a range problem than priority. I`ve never had Nair clash or be cancelled by any other move. Unless I get hit during the small start-up lag, Nair usually goes through everything, so I think the priority on it is great.

Yeah sorry, I guess I don't mean priority in clashing. I meant it as in getting hit before it due to the timing and range. It especially becomes difficult when people advance towards you when trying to land NAirs because you have to time it out pretty good.

 

[wizardto1]

Does up throw to up smash on 0% work? I tried it on the heavier characters and it seems to work up to Capt. Falcon though Ike just fails to get the first hit of the up smash for whatever reason.

 

[MartinAW4]

Does up throw to up smash on 0% work? I tried it on the heavier characters and it seems to work up to Capt. Falcon though Ike just fails to get the first hit of the up smash for whatever reason.

As far as I know, Uthrow -> Usmash doesn`t true combo any character. That was one of the first things I tested because it would be amazing if you could get 24% off of your first grab (back then it was 52% when Usmash still comboed into itself and into Uair). But they always have time to either air dodge or jump away.

 

[wizardto1]

As far as I know, Uthrow -> Usmash doesn`t true combo any character. That was one of the first things I tested because it would be amazing if you could get 24% off of your first grab (back then it was 52% when Usmash still comboed into itself and into Uair). But they always have time to either air dodge or jump away.

Yeah. I guess I should have put the CPU on attack instead of stop in training though.

 

[MartinAW4]

I have a new string at low % (around 0-20%):
Bthrow -> Bair -> Bair
If you grab the opponent at 0-20% with your back to the ledge, you can throw them backwards and follow up with 2 Bairs. None of this is a true combo, but the moves link nicely into each other. And if you land both Bairs, you will get a gimp unless the opponent is Villager.
Against a human, it probably won`t work more than once, but getting a surprise kill at 0% can be game changing especially in the current 2-stock format.

While testing this I also noticed that the first two hits of Bair have fixed knockback and at 0% they actually have more knockback than the last hit. So it is possible to outright kill some lighter characters like Pikachu with the second Bair if you manage to avoid the last hit.

 

[Splice]

Thanks heaps for the thread, the idea of using some of these combos has motivated me to put it more effort with this game.

I just have a few questions to help me with execution
1) How is it best to setup the meteor on Dair? I get it sometimes but I'm not sure where to aim to get the meteor every time. Where is the meteor hitbox?
2) Which hits of Uair spike and how do you set it up? do you fastfall to end it early or start it late in the jump?
3) Do you have C-stick set to tilts, I hear that having C-stick set to smash affects aerial momentum, I was wondering what you were using.

Cheers

If it helps anyone, I'd like to mention that when it comes to starting up dtilt/dashatk combos, if you have someone that spotdodges your dash attack, you can mixup with running at them, inputting a crouch option and dtilting. During the time you stop the run and begin dtilt, their spotdodge will start and end and you will hit them as they come out of it. It's a good mixup against an opponent who wants a big punish on your dash attack, although if they roll or shield this mixup isn't very handy, but it is quite safe especially if you condition your opponent.

 

[MartinAW4]

Thanks heaps for the thread, the idea of using some of these combos has motivated me to put it more effort with this game.

I just have a few questions to help me with execution
1) How is it best to setup the meteor on Dair? I get it sometimes but I'm not sure where to aim to get the meteor every time. Where is the meteor hitbox?
2) Which hits of Uair spike and how do you set it up? do you fastfall to end it early or start it late in the jump?
3) Do you have C-stick set to tilts, I hear that having C-stick set to smash affects aerial momentum, I was wondering what you were using.

Cheers

If it helps anyone, I'd like to mention that when it comes to starting up dtilt/dashatk combos, if you have someone that spotdodges your dash attack, you can mixup with running at them, inputting a crouch option and dtilting. During the time you stop the run and begin dtilt, their spotdodge will start and end and you will hit them as they come out of it. It's a good mixup against an opponent who wants a big punish on your dash attack, although if they roll or shield this mixup isn't very handy, but it is quite safe especially if you condition your opponent.

I`m glad you find this thread helpful.

1) The meteor hitbox on Dair activates if you hit with Dair from close range. It will always meteor from a short hop against an opponent standing on the ground and even if you perform it from slightly above short hop height.
2) The first 4 Uair hits will spike, the 5. hit will keep them in place and the 6. hit will launch them upwards. It is easiest to perform by landing the Uair on your way down and fast falling as soon as the Uair connects.
It`s hard to combo into on stage since most of your Uair combos require you to land the Uair while still rising from a jump. But it can be used pretty well off stage by approaching with your back, making the opponent want to avoid the Bair by going above you and if you catch them with the tip of your Uair while still falling down, you can easily spike them.
3) Unfortunately, I only have the 3DS version, so I don`t have the luxury of using C-sticks yet.

 

[KERO]

I was messing around with sliding Dtilt (tilt sticking while walking) and found that not only does it lead into Usmash a ton more easily, but at lower percents, it can lead into a Utilt which can lead into a Uair for 21% (or more if you drag them down into another Utilt). Not sure the exact percents this works at as I just discovered this and I need to go to bed and then study for finals, but we got another combo at least.

 

[MartinAW4]

I was messing around with sliding Dtilt (tilt sticking while walking) and found that not only does it lead into Usmash a ton more easily, but at lower percents, it can lead into a Utilt which can lead into a Uair for 21% (or more if you drag them down into another Utilt). Not sure the exact percents this works at as I just discovered this and I need to go to bed and then study for finals, but we got another combo at least.

Yes, walking Dtilt -> Usmash is already included. That`s the only way I can make Dtilt -> Usmash truly combo since the hitstun from Dtilt is so low.
But I didn`t know about the Dtilt -> Utilt -> Uair combo. That`s actually really useful since approaching with sliding Dtilt is safer than Dash Attack and at lower % we might be able to use the Uair spike instead of Uair at the end to extend the combo even further. I`ll try testing it tomorrow.

 

[MartinAW4]

I did some testing today and here is what I found:
Dtilt -> Utilt -> Uair works against Sheik at 31-60% but it`s hard to perform even against an immobile CPU, so I don`t think this will be used much in practice.
Sweetspot Nair -> Nair works at 30-100%. It`s pretty good, but Nair -> Fair is usually better.
Sourspot Nair -> Nair works at 70-150%. Again, sourspot Nair -> Fair is better.
Uair spike -> Jab/Dtilt/Ftilt all work at 0-999%. But since the Uair spike only adds 1-4%, it is not really worth it.
Uair spike -> Grab also works at 0-66%, but again just dash grabbing is only 4% weaker and much easier to do.
It is possible to chain several Uair spike -> Utilts for probably around 30 damage at 50-60%, but I need to test it some more.
So overall I haven`t found any useful combos today.

I also tested SHFF Fair and SHFF Bair and these actually seem very useful:
SHFF Fair can be performed in two ways:
1) You can either start the Fair at the apex of your short hop which will make it hit all opponents standing on the ground. It has more range than Nair and is also a disjointed hitbox so it is useful when you want to approach from a longer distance. But it also has more start-up and landing lag compared to Nair, so good spacing is very important when using it.
2) Or you can start the Fair immediately after short hopping (press the jump and attack buttons almost at the same time) which will make it hit at the apex of your jump. Because of this, you will miss opponents standing on the ground, but you will be able to quickly hit opponents standing on platforms or short hopping (and often outrange their aerials).

SHFF Bair has by far the fastest start-up among all of Greninja`s aerial approaches and has decent range so it is useful against characters with fast moves that interrupt your Nair approaches. Its main disadvantages are that it`s weak when hitting opponents standing on the ground, because you will only be able to connect 2 hits at best for 6 damage before landing. And it doesn`t combo into anything.
However where it really excels is off stage. If you fast fall Bair, you create a wall of hitboxes that link into each other and are great for edgeguarding. Before, I never fast falled my Bairs off stage which made it hard for me to edgeguard players recovering low. But now I can reach them everywhere and thanks to Greninja`s great recovery, you don`t risk SDing even if you fast fall your Bair off stage (though it`s good to keep your second jump when doing this to cancel the fast fall).

The last thing I tested were moves SS could hitstun cancel out of and it seems you can escape all multi-hit moves and moves with weak knockback like Sheik`s grenade hit (not the explosion) using SS. Thanks to SS, it seems that Greninja is basically immune to most weak-move combos like Fox`s Utilt or Sheik`s Ftilt combos. And what`s even more interesting, is that you can actually punish opponents for hitting you with multi-hit moves.
For example if you SS during Sheik`s Fsmash, you not only escape the second hit, but you also hit her with the strong SS hitbox that kills at 90% from the edge of FD and there`s nothing she can do to avoid it. So actually our most reliable kill setup against Sheik is to let ourselves get hit by her Fsmash near the edge and SS hitstun cancel for the unavoidable kill.

And in general I find myself using SS more and more for getting kills. I think SS has the potential to become Greninja`s best kill move, so I`ll try to find more situations where it can be used without getting punished for it.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't quite get how to cancel hitstun with Shadow Sneak, sometimes I do it at complete random but I guess I never really tried using it much. Is there some sort of timing for it or is it just literally "use Shadow Sneak while you're being hit"?

And that Sheik example is kinda funny because that way Greninja has essentially two counters, and they're both just as pragmatic as you'd expect.

I think Shadow Sneak might end up being one of Greninja's best moves just because of how much you can do with it. It's a very useful tool to catch opponents off-guard and often doing so is lethal to them. Finding ways to use it without being punished would be really, really great.

 

[KERO]

Having been playing around with Sub and found that upward Sub to both Bair and Dair work as combos as long as the opponent doesn't DI. It works at about the same percents as Fair does from what little I've played around with them.

 

[ChillySundance]

according to training mode, Dtilt > up tilt is not a true combo against some characters. It seems to work best on bigger ones like Rob.

True combos I've found:
short hop Nair > Fsmash at low percents
short hop Nair (sourspot) > full jump Fair at higher percents (around 130% for most characters)
short hop Nair (sourspot) > dashing upsmash at mid percents
uptilt > up air at mid-high percents
uptilt with back facing opponent > back air at mid percents (this one's strangely hard to true chain)

I managed to get 10 hits off of up tilt > up air > fast fall > up tilt against Rob at mid percents, but that's probably stuffed up by DI in a practical situation.

walking Down tilt into running upsmash works at around 100% on a fair few characters it seems. Sets them up perfectly for KO's. The timing is pretty strict. Oddly, it doesn't work on lower % targets.

up throw > up air works on Diddy at mid percents, but you need to full jump and then immediately use the attack. the timing is very tight.

 

[MartinAW4]

according to training mode, Dtilt > up tilt is not a true combo against some characters. It seems to work best on bigger ones like Rob.

True combos I've found:
short hop Nair > Fsmash at low percents
short hop Nair (sourspot) > full jump Fair at higher percents (around 130% for most characters)
short hop Nair (sourspot) > dashing upsmash at mid percents
uptilt > up air at mid-high percents
uptilt with back facing opponent > back air at mid percents (this one's strangely hard to true chain)

I managed to get 10 hits off of up tilt > up air > fast fall > up tilt against Rob at mid percents, but that's probably stuffed up by DI in a practical situation.

walking Down tilt into running upsmash works at around 100% on a fair few characters it seems. Sets them up perfectly for KO's. The timing is pretty strict. Oddly, it doesn't work on lower % targets.

up throw > up air works on Diddy at mid percents, but you need to full jump and then immediately use the attack. the timing is very tight.

Thanks for sharing, but all of those combos are already included in the OP. You can check them out for exact percentages against Sheik.

 

[ChillySundance]

Yah, I'm just verifying it really.

Also, I think Dtilt > grab or Dtilt > running grab should be given a mention. they don't register as combos, but I'm pretty sure they're inescapable at low percents up till about 40%.

I've also been testing Dtilt > running upsmash and have found that even though it doesn't register as a combo at mid-high percents (like around 70% or so), it still might be inescapable because it hits on the first frames where air dodge is not invulnerable. In the advent where your upsmash gets air dodged, you can usually follow up immediately with a jab string instead. So...guaranteed setup on most characters who don't have frame-1 invincibility?

Also, none of the dash attack combos seem to work reliably for me.

 

[Lavani]

Greninja's grab has more startup than fsmash. If stuff>fsmash won't combo, stuff>grab has no chance of it.

 

[MartinAW4]

Yah, I'm just verifying it really.

Also, I think Dtilt > grab or Dtilt > running grab should be given a mention. they don't register as combos, but I'm pretty sure they're inescapable at low percents up till about 40%.

I've also been testing Dtilt > running upsmash and have found that even though it doesn't register as a combo at mid-high percents (like around 70% or so), it still might be inescapable because it hits on the first frames where air dodge is not invulnerable. In the advent where your upsmash gets air dodged, you can usually follow up immediately with a jab string instead. So...guaranteed setup on most characters who don't have frame-1 invincibility?

Also, none of the dash attack combos seem to work reliably for me.

As Lavani said, Grab is slower than Fsmash, so if Dtilt -> Fsmash doesn`t truly combo, Dtilt -> Grab won`t either. I still like to use it though because they have little time to react so it often works. And at low %, Dtilt -> Dtilt is a true combo, so you can do Dtilt -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair -> Uair for over 30 damage.

Dtilt -> hyphen Usmash is a true combo against Sheik at 60-120%, but the timing is extremely strict. You have to stand inside the opponent when performing the Dtilt and then immediately Usmash in order for it to truly combo. This is not going to happen very often during a match, but like you said, even when it does not combo, there is very little time to escape, so it is pretty reliable.

The Dash Attack combos are DI-able by good players, but you should be able to perform them consistently against the CPU in training mode and they are some of the more reliable combos even against human opponents, especially DA -> Fair.
They`re easiest to perform at around 60% if you hit the DA as close as possible to launch the opponent more upwards and less to the side which makes the follow-up with Fair or Uair pretty easy.

 

[ChillySundance]

I'd really appreciate if the front page could be updated to say which combos are DI-able. The dash attack into Fair is so tight that it can be stuffed with even a little DI away from Greninja, and it only seems to work reliably if you strike with the dash attack as close to the target as possible.

For me, it seems like the Nair and up tilt combos are by far the most reliable. Too bad both of these moves are quite hard to land in a real match!

 

[MartinAW4]

I'd really appreciate if the front page could be updated to say which combos are DI-able. The dash attack into Fair is so tight that it can be stuffed with even a little DI away from Greninja, and it only seems to work reliably if you strike with the dash attack as close to the target as possible.

For me, it seems like the Nair and up tilt combos are by far the most reliable. Too bad both of these moves are quite hard to land in a real match!

That`s a good idea. I used the color blue to mark all combos I`m almost 100% sure are not DI-able. Some of the other ones might be inescapable at certain %, like Uthrow -> Bair at low %, but since I cannot test DI in training mode, I can`t confirm that.

Utilt and Nair do have more hitstun than Dtilt, Dash Attack or Uthrow and I agree that landing an Utilt is not easy against a human opponent. But Nair is one of Greninja`s easiest to land and safest moves if you SHFF it, so it will be your main combo starter along with Uthrow.

 

[ChillySundance]

Speaking of Uthrow, I cannot for the life of me get Uthrow > up air to combo against a lot of characters. Samus for example, seems to escape it every time. Is there some kind of trick to making it work?

Greninja seems to be woefully inadequate at punishing spammed air dodges. none of his air attacks are quick or rapid enough to do so at height, so I often find myself at a loss when I use up throw followed by a missed up air.

Also, I can confirm that Up tilt > shffed up air > up tilt > up air is a legit combo at around 30% to 60% for midweight characters. The combo counter went up to 11 for around 28% damage.

Found some more combos. These were tested on Diddy Kong.

shff'd Forward Air > AAA combo. only seems to be able to do it at 0%

shff'd back air > Ftilt. seems to work up to about 20%. you need to be quite close to make this work, so it's probably not very useful.

shff'd back air > back air works against bigger characters like DK and Bowser at low percents.

 

[MartinAW4]

Speaking of Uthrow, I cannot for the life of me get Uthrow > up air to combo against a lot of characters. Samus for example, seems to escape it every time. Is there some kind of trick to making it work?

Greninja seems to be woefully inadequate at punishing spammed air dodges. none of his air attacks are quick or rapid enough to do so at height, so I often find myself at a loss when I use up throw followed by a missed up air.

Also, I can confirm that Up tilt > shffed up air > up tilt > up air is a legit combo at around 30% to 60% for midweight characters. The combo counter went up to 11 for around 28% damage.

Found some more combos. These were tested on Diddy Kong.

shff'd Forward Air > AAA combo. only seems to be able to do it at 0%

shff'd back air > Ftilt. seems to work up to about 20%. you need to be quite close to make this work, so it's probably not very useful.

shff'd back air > back air works against bigger characters like DK and Bowser at low percents.

You`re right, Uthrow -> Uair is harder to perform against certain characters like Samus. I still managed to make it combo at 60%, but the timing was much more strict than against Sheik.

Actually Uair stays active for a decent amount of time, so if they slightly mistime their airdodge, you will still hit them. And even if you miss, you should fast fall immediately because Greninja has the 3. best fast fall speed in the game, which will allow you to land before your opponent (unless the are Fox or King DeDeDe) and go for a regrab or a punish their landing which will be laggy after the airdodge.

Nice find, SHFF Fair -> Jab also works against Sheik from 0-21% and deals 24 damage. It even seems to be impossible to DI out of just like Nair -> Jab. I`ll add it to the list.

Bair -> Ftilt seems to only work against big heavyweights and only deals 12 damage, so I won`t include this one.

Bair -> Bair is already included as part of the Uthrow -> Bair -> Bair string.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Something we should incorporate to give us more combos is perfect pivoting.

For Instance:
Nair>PP Utilt>Upair Spike>Uptilt
Dtilt>PP Utilt>Upair Spike>Uptilt

Reason is because when you PP with uptilt it hits the back part faster, OoS with PP Uptilt (on laggy hits) would be a really interesting to start combos and finishing with them and go for the kill with a DSmash, or reading if they are mashing buttons and catching them offguard with a substitute for an early kill.

This really transforms the metagame for Greninja.

 

[ChillySundance]

I find it a lot harder to land the upair spike when hitting with the back part of Utilt though. But I definately need to look into that. Utilt is probably greninja's most important move since it combos easily into kill moves at reasonable percents. Having more ways to land it is always good.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

I find it a lot harder to land the upair spike when hitting with the back part of Utilt though. But I definately need to look into that. Utilt is probably greninja's most important move since it combos easily into kill moves at reasonable percents. Having more ways to land it is always good.

Ive been trying it lately its easier to land because of the sliding animation that it does with the perfect pivot. Especially with the amount of hitstun it does to the opponent instead of upthrow.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Something we should incorporate to give us more combos is perfect pivoting.

For Instance:
Nair>PP Utilt>Upair Spike>Uptilt
Dtilt>PP Utilt>Upair Spike>Uptilt

Reason is because when you PP with uptilt it hits the back part faster, OoS with PP Uptilt (on laggy hits) would be a really interesting to start combos and finishing with them and go for the kill with a DSmash, or reading if they are mashing buttons and catching them offguard with a substitute for an early kill.

This really transforms the metagame for Greninja.

If we had some video of somebody applying Perfect Pivots with Greninja, it'd be very useful.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

If we had some video of somebody applying Perfect Pivots with Greninja, it'd be very useful.

Ill put up a video soon, its a little difficult to pull off unless you put in some practice.

Edit: Here is a video (Don't laugh)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgrqiYzDsCk&feature=youtu.be

 

[MartinAW4]

The perfect pivot combos seem interesting, but I can`t test them since I`m on the 3DS. However both Nair -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Utilt and Dtilt -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Utilt combos can be done even without the perfect pivot.

Today I tested the Uair spike -> Utilt combos and the longest combo I managed to get against Sheik was:
sweetspot Nair -> 3×(Utilt -> Uair spike) -> Utilt -> sweetspot Nair which works at 27% and deals 55 damage.
However it is extremely hard to perform and most likely DI-able, so I don`t think this will ever be used in a real match.

I also found a pretty good string:
sweetspot Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair which works at 0-24% and deals 32 damage.
Only the Dtilt -> Grab part is not a true combo and even that part is almost inescapable, so this is probably the most reliable string to use at the start of the match to build up some damage. You can use a different throw if needed, but Uthrow -> Uair deals the most damage.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

The perfect pivot combos seem interesting, but I can`t test them since I`m on the 3DS. However both Nair -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Utilt and Dtilt -> Utilt -> Uair spike -> Utilt combos can be done even without the perfect pivot.

Today I tested the Uair spike -> Utilt combos and the longest combo I managed to get against Sheik was:
sweetspot Nair -> 3×(Utilt -> Uair spike) -> Utilt -> sweetspot Nair which works at 27% and deals 55 damage.
However it is extremely hard to perform and most likely DI-able, so I don`t think this will ever be used in a real match.

I also found a pretty good string:
sweetspot Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair which works at 0-24% and deals 32 damage.
Only the Dtilt -> Grab part is not a true combo and even that part is almost inescapable, so this is probably the most reliable string to use at the start of the match to build up some damage. You can use a different throw if needed, but Uthrow -> Uair deals the most damage.

Great info, Im just saying that the perfect pivot gives us more options. Also, the Nair>Uptilt can only be executed at around low percents.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ SuperSmashKing009
Yeah, it seems that Perfect Pivots make following up a Nair or Dtilt with Utilt easier because you don`t have to get the perfect launching angle on them and you can react better to the opponent`s DI. But the main advantage I see in PP Utilt is that it allows us to land Utilt more easily even if it`s not part of a combo, because it is our most reliable kill setup move at 100-160%.

Today I tested Greninja`s other throws because all I used 90% of the time was Uthrow. And even though I couldn`t find any true combos from Bthrow, Fthrow or Dthrow, I found several interesting strings we can use as a mix-up in different situations.

Fthrow -> Dash Attack string at low % (up to around 20%) if they don`t tech the landing. So if you grab the opponent at 0% at the edge of the stage facing towards the stage, you can try to go for Fthrow -> Dash Attack -> Fair -> fast fall -> Dash Attack -> Fair -> Hydro Pump or another Fair to carry them across the stage and deal 50-60 damage. It is not a true combo though except the DA -> Fair parts and even those are DI-able, so you most likely won`t get the full string against good opponents.

Fthrow -> uncharged Water Shuriken works at low-mid %. At high % the opponents get sent out of range of your WS, but if you Fthrow them off stage, they usually DI towards the stage which puts them back in range of your WS and can allow you to gimp characters with bad recoveries by wasting their jumps.

Fthrow off stage -> run-off uncharged SS strings pretty well at 50+% if they don`t jump immediately and kills even at 50%. If they do jump immediately you can either jump + uncharged SS as well to hit them anyway if you predict their jump, or you could just stay at the edge and Usmash because if you Fthrow off stage and the opponent jumps back immediately, they land just in range of a sweetspot Usmash. At higher % you`ll need to charge the SS a little to reach them, but otherwise the timing is the same.

Fthrow off stage -> full hop meteor Dair is a pretty good edgeguarding mix-up. Thanks to Greninja`s high full hop, you end up just above the opponent when they jump back from the Fthrow which is where the meteor hitbox is. You can get a nice gimp this way, but since the meteor is relatively weak, you`ll have to wait until around 70% to have a guaranteed kill against characters with good recoveries. And even if you miss, you have just enough range with your second jump + Hydro Pump to make it back to the ledge. You can sometimes even catch a taunting opponent celebrating after what they thought was a Dair SD and punish them for underestimating Greninja`s recovery.

Dthrow`s main use is setting up a Fair follow-up above 100% when Uthrow -> Uair stops working. At low % it can string into Dash Attack or even Fsmash, but the opponent has a lot of time to react, so it`s not really worth it. And around mid %, you can follow-up with an Usmash if they mistime their airdodge.

And while testing Bthrow at high %, I noticed that it can almost chaingrab from 80% to 160% when Uthrow conveniently starts to kill. If you Bthrow from one end of the stage to the other end starting from around 80% and chase after the opponent, they will fly longer than 1 second so once they land, you can regrab them. It`s not a true chaingrab because there is a small window when they can escape, but it works pretty reliably even against lv.9 CPUs which normally dodge almost everything with perfect timing. I`ll have to try it out against human opponents to see how it works. But even if they escape after 2-3 throws, that`s still 10 damage for every Pummel+Bthrow which brings them closer to Uthrow kill %.

 

[Funkermonster]

I've been toying around with Dthrow myself lately, and I've found some of my own little gimmicks. Earlier today I was fighting a Pit player who airdodged nearly every Uthrow follow-up I attempted, so I decided to switch it up with Dthrow instead to see how she'd react. She still airdodged so I got her with Fsmash to punish the land lag, somebody suggested to me once. I'm thinking of trying an uncharged shuriken after Dthrow next time and see what else I can do......

 

[PHaZeX3R0]

Situational but kool =o

 

[ChillySundance]

it's things like that which make me wish spikes weren't techable on the ground in this game :/

 

[MartinAW4]

Situational but kool =o

Nice, I didn`t know that SS truly comboed into meteor Dair. You can pull off some really flashy combos with Dair if the opponent doesn`t tech. For example he could have even used Dair -> Dair -> Dair -> Nair for the kill which is a 35 damage combo, but you give the opponent 3 opportunities to tech, so it is less reliable than the combo used in the video.

Actually since the meteor Dair is so unexpected, I don`t think people will be able to tech it reliably, so this could become one of our reliable kill setups at higher %. I`ll test it in more detail to see if it has potential.

Edit:
Wow, it conveniently starts working at 100% if you use SS the moment you bounce off the opponent and works reliably until around 180% at which point our Uthrow already kills. At 100% our Uthrow -> Uair combo stops working, so having a kill combo to replace it is great. I`m definitely going to start using Dair -> SS more often from now on or short hop Dair in general. I also noticed that Dair -> Dair -> Dair -> Fair is a true combo that deals 38 damage and kills from the edge of FD at 80%.

 

[ChillySundance]

found something interesting. At low to about 60% (possibly higher, testing has been inconsistent), you can 'combo' a foostool jump from a dash attack because of how high and fast greninja jumps. If you do a short dash after a running attack and then full jump into an immediate footstool, it comes out faster than any of your aerial options, allowing you to effectively combo that into a down air on most characters.

Sadly, the timing is incredibly strict, but I've tested this on lv 9 cpu's and they don't seem to be able to escape it when performed perfectly.

 

[1up_Regal]

So... i was messing around in training mode, and I think a came up with a way to remove one of the two tech opportunities from the Meteor Dair> Meteor Dair > Fair/Bair combo. It starts working around 85% on a grounded Mario, and i'm not 100% sure if it's a true combo, since i'm testing this alone on the 3DS, but im pretty confident that it is. I'll test it later anyway.

Meteor Dair (ASAP from a jump)> Footstool > Dair (not meteor) > Fair/Bair/Nair/Side B (30%/25%/27%/26-28%)

You hit the second dair as soon as they hit the ground. On certain characters, like Mario and Link, if you do it very quickly, you can even hit the second dair before the opponent hits the ground, but it becomes a little bit harder to get the Fair and Side B follow ups.

Some notes about this:
- The "jump" input in this combo works like an option select. If you're near enough to do the footstool, you'll do it, but if you are not, you'll do nothing, since the dair's bounce consumes your second jump if you have it.
- The Side B version of the combo is a really hard punish, stronger then any of our smashes. Starting the combo on a bowser at 90%, it can kill him near the edge of FD (about a character away from it) without any rage.
- Floaters with good horizontal aerial acceleration, like jiggly, can evade the second dair if they hold left or right. But maybe you can try to chase it.

Some other stuff that caught my attention:
At higher %, where the second dair sends them too far away for any follow ups:

Meteor Dair (ASAP from a jump)> "Short hop" Footstool> FF Sourspot Nair> Running Usmash

OR

Meteor Dair (ASAP from a jump)> "Short hop" Footstool> FF Fair/Bair/Sweetspot Nair

I'm pretty sure that there's enough time so they can roll away after the footstool, but maybe, just maybe, it's a combo. At worst, it's a nice tech chase setup. You do the "short hop" footstool by pressing the jump button just like you press for... well... a short hop. It will make your footstool jump shorter, allowing you to reach the ground faster.

Meteor Dair (ASAP from a jump)> Footstool > Dair (not meteor) > UpB (18%)

For the disrespect. To add salt to the injury.

Sorry for any english mistakes, its not my mother language.

 

[MartinAW4]

Great finds guys, I`m going to experiment with them, but now I have to leave for two days, so see you on Saturday.