Greninja's True Combos

[Ventus55]

I have a question. I use the gamepad so i have c stick, should i put my c stick on smash attack or tilts?

 

[MartinAW4]

I have a question. I use the gamepad so i have c stick, should i put my c stick on smash attack or tilts?

If you can Perfect Pivot consistently, set it to tilts, but if you can`t, I reccomend setting the C-stick to smashes which allows you to perform pivot Fsmash, running Usmash and smash attacks in general more reliably.

 

[Ventus55]

ok thx for the help

 

[Ventus55]

Also any tips on approaching opponents. When I play with my brother he says that I am too predictable. I just wanted to know another option other than dash grab and dash attack. Also does shff nair seem like a viable option?

 

[MartinAW4]

Also any tips on approaching opponents. When I play with my brother he says that I am too predictable. I just wanted to know another option other than DACUS, dash grab and dash attack. Also does shff nair seem like a viable option?

DACUS actually isn`t possible ever since the 1.0.4. patch, what you probably mean is Jump cancelled Usmash. I wouldn`t reccomend using it as an approach because with the horrible end lag on Usmash it is easily punishable if you miss or hit a shield. Use this only when you`re sure that you will hit or force the opponent into a position from which he cannot punish you.

Dash Attack is safer than JC Usmash, but also very unsafe on shield, so use this mainly to catch landings or in situations when the opponent is unlikely to shield.

Greninja`s dash grab is one of the best in the game, so you can use this one a lot. Use this to grab opponents that are shielding or to punish any missed or shielded attacks with high end lag from your opponent.

SHFF Nair is another great approaching tool. Nair has the lowest landing lag among Greninja`s aerials, so it is one of our safest approaches, but with good timing, the opponent can still shield grab you from it, so be careful when facing characters with fast grabs.
It also requires some practice to learn the timing well because if you don`t do both the short hop and fast fall, you won`t hit the opponent and you will get punished easily since you can`t do anything after a missed Nair until you land. But once you learn to do this consistently, you will have access to a lot of great combos like Nair -> Jab or Nair -> Dtilt -> grab -> Uthrow -> Uair at low percents, Nair -> Usmash at mid percents and Nair -> Fair or Uair at kill percents.

SHFF Fair is a very good spacing tool. The timing is even more strict than with SHFF Nair and it has more landing lag, but you get more range, damage and at higher percents it can be used as a decent kill move. It also seems to be safe on shield when spaced right which is very rare in Smash 4. And it combos into Jab, Dtilt, grab or Fsmash at low % and into Dash Attack -> Fair at mid percents.

Dash to shield is a safe approach when you expect the opponent to attack you. You can do it simply by pressing shield while you are dashing. This can allow you to shield grab your opponent if they hit your shield. The most common way for your opponent to counter this approach is by grabbing you while you`re shielding. That`s why this approach works most reliably against the opponent`s aerial approaches, because they can`t grab you when they`re in the air.

As you can see every approach works best in different situations and is countered differently. That`s why it is important to learn as many different approaches as you can and constantly mix them up to make it hard for your opponent to guess the correct answer for your approaches.

 

[Ventus55]

Wow thx for the tips

 

[Shack]

I have a question. I use the gamepad so i have c stick, should i put my c stick on smash attack or tilts?

I would say get used to titls. I was against it at first, but seeing the amount of combo potential by being able to perfect pivot into utilts is insane. If you don't plan on playing too seriously then it's no biggy.

And about being predictable, it means your bro knows what you're about to do because you are using the same patterns. If you just did a dash attack from full screen 3 times in a row, he's gonna expect you to do it again. You have to mix things up and you can use the predictability to condition him into thinking you will do the move again.

 

[Ventus55]

Alright I will give it a shot

 

[FullMoon]

This just came into mind and I can't really test it, but would N-Air -> Up-tilt -> Up-Air spike -> D-Smash work at low percentages? It sounds like it could be a good of dealing some damage, even more if you can loop the Up-tilt -> Up-Air Spike part.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

This just came into mind and I can't really test it, but would N-Air -> Up-tilt -> Up-Air spike -> D-Smash work at low percentages? It sounds like it could be a good of dealing some damage, even more if you can loop the Up-tilt -> Up-Air Spike part.

It works but its not a true combo. They can punish out of it.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Here's a video of a nice flashy combo, but it's hard to land in a real fight, because you can DI the dtilt/uptilt and tech the meteor dair :

youtube.com/watch?v=BsC4Gt9-zkc (to see the link, just add a "www.". I can't post a link, since i'm new here)

There's a lot variation of this kind of combo, you can see some of them here : vine.co/u/1135825187007569920 and vine.co/u/1128742237132709888/grid

These kind of combos show you the deadly combo potential of the uair-spike and the meteor dair.

So even, if the uair-spike to dsmash seems to be the safest and easiest combo to land out of a uair-spike (like aMSa showed during his Apex's matchs), I don't think it's the best, because of the low kill power of the dsmash, one smart deadly combo to pull out of an spiked uair is : spike-uair -> meteor-dair -> (footstool or not, it's optional, both works) nair -> running usmash. It's funky, it deals like 40% damage and it's deadly. It's easy to do and it's quiet safe, the only thing that can break the combo is a tech on the meteor dair, but it's kinda hard to tech because it's a very surprising option.

So I noticed in general, I need to train the uair-spike, cause it's hard to land in a fight but that's a crazy combo starter. The easiest way to land it is : while the opponent is in the air, if I get some good reads, make the opponent believe that i'll uair him, wait for the airdodge, then quickly jump and uair-spike, and there's your combo. You can also try to directly land a shdair, it's risky, but unexpected so even if you miss it, your opponent will be surprised and may not be able to react in time to punish you. Finally a last way to land that combo is to uair-spike out of a utilt or dtilt, but it can be DIed easily. Ah and keep in mind that the dairspike start workin around 55%.

So I think this combo : meteor-dair -> nair -> running usmash is one of our best kill option, and it can easily connect at around 60% and more, and even kill some character that early if they're not too heavy.

 

[MartinAW4]

This just came into mind and I can't really test it, but would N-Air -> Up-tilt -> Up-Air spike -> D-Smash work at low percentages? It sounds like it could be a good of dealing some damage, even more if you can loop the Up-tilt -> Up-Air Spike part.

Dsmash never truly comboes from an Uair spike, because once it starts to be displayed as a true combo on the combo counter, it becomes techable.
Fsmash is a better Uair spike follow-up in every way since it deals more damage, has faster start-up, longer range and truly comboes against Sheik at 35-65%. And just like Dsmash, it continues to combo from 65-999% if the opponent misses the tech.

Though at low percents (6-24%), sweetspot Nair -> Utilt -> sweetspot Usmash deals the same amount of damage as the combo you listed while being much easier to perform and you can often follow up the Usmash with an Uair for 9 more damage.
So I`d only consider going for an Uair spike -> Fsmash after the Utilt if the opponent is at mid percents and gets sent out of range of an Usmash follow-up.

Here's a video of a nice flashy combo, but it's hard to land in a real fight, because you can DI the dtilt/uptilt and tech the meteor dair :

youtube.com/watch?v=BsC4Gt9-zkc (to see the link, just add a "www.". I can't post a link, since i'm new here)

There's a lot variation of this kind of combo, you can see some of them here : vine.co/u/1135825187007569920 and vine.co/u/1128742237132709888/grid

These kind of combos show you the deadly combo potential of the uair-spike and the meteor dair.

So even, if the uair-spike to dsmash seems to be the safest and easiest combo to land out of a uair-spike (like aMSa showed during his Apex's matchs), I don't think it's the best, because of the low kill power of the dsmash, one smart deadly combo to pull out of an spiked uair is : spike-uair -> meteor-dair -> (footstool or not, it's optional, both works) nair -> running usmash. It's funky, it deals like 40% damage and it's deadly. It's easy to do and it's quiet safe, the only thing that can break the combo is a tech on the meteor dair, but it's kinda hard to tech because it's a very surprising option.

So I noticed in general, I need to train the uair-spike, cause it's hard to land in a fight but that's a crazy combo starter. The easiest way to land it is : while the opponent is in the air, if I get some good reads, make the opponent believe that i'll uair him, wait for the airdodge, then quickly jump and uair-spike, and there's your combo. You can also try to directly land a shdair, it's risky, but unexpected so even if you miss it, your opponent will be surprised and may not be able to react in time to punish you. Finally a last way to land that combo is to uair-spike out of a utilt or dtilt, but it can be DIed easily. Ah and keep in mind that the dairspike start workin around 55%.

So I think this combo : meteor-dair -> nair -> running usmash is one of our best kill option, and it can easily connect at around 60% and more, and even kill some character that early if they're not too heavy.

Yeah, we`ve known that combo for some time now. But I don`t see it being very useful in practice because of how hard it is to perform while being very easy to escape if you mistime your Uair spike even by a few frames.
Even in the video you linked the opponent could have airdoged at one point and teched at two points, so he had 3 opportunities to escape. And that was against an immobile CPU who doesn`t DI. So you can imagine how hard it is to pull off against a real opponent.

You`re on the right track though with your simplified combo (meteor Dair -> Nair -> Usmash). But even that can be made a lot more reliable by removing the only part that is techable and very punishable if missed: the meteor Dair. That leaves us with Nair -> Usmash.
Sweetspot Nair -> sweetspot Usmash works against Sheik at 25-60% and deals 30% damage
Sourspot Nair -> sweetspot Usmash works against Sheik at 60-100%, deals 25% damage and starts killing at around 90%. By leaving out the meteor Dair, you only lose 8% damage, but in return you`ll be able to start the combo with one of your safest moves (Nair), you`ll remove their only chance to escape the combo with a tech and you`ll be able to perform it more easily since it`s only 2 hits instead of 3.

 

[FullMoon]

Dsmash never truly comboes from an Uair spike, because once it starts to be displayed as a true combo on the combo counter, it becomes techable.
Fsmash is a better Uair spike follow-up in every way since it deals more damage, has faster start-up, longer range and truly comboes against Sheik at 35-65%. And just like Dsmash, it continues to combo from 65-999% if the opponent misses the tech.

Though at low percents (6-24%), sweetspot Nair -> Utilt -> sweetspot Usmash deals the same amount of damage as the combo you listed while being much easier to perform and you can often follow up the Usmash with an Uair for 9 more damage.
So I`d only consider going for an Uair spike -> Fsmash after the Utilt if the opponent is at mid percents and gets sent out of range of an Usmash follow-up.

Got it, thanks. I never really tried using up-tilt much so I'll make sure to try it more often.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Yeah, i'm totally aware of the nair -> running Usmash, which the easiest, safest, best kill option we have.

But the point of my last message was to point out the best action out of an Uair-spike. The Uair-spike to Dsmash is safe and a good option. Uair-Spike to Utilt to Aerial deals a little more damage but less kill power. But the Uair-spike to meteor dair (to nair to Usmash) is imo the best action out an Uair-spike, because the tech will be quiet rare (the opponent rarely expect it). This little combo deals by far the most damage (40%) and has by far the strongest kill power (Usmash is way better than an aeriel or a Dsmash to kill). So yeah IMO, that combo is the most useful (plus, it's so flashy, i love it).

In general, I really love the combos out of an Uair-spike, because they can be so flashy, surprise your opponent, and deal a nice amount of damage.

 

[MartinAW4]

Yeah, i'm totally aware of the nair -> running Usmash, which the easiest, safest, best kill option we have.

But the point of my last message was to point out the best action out of an Uair-spike. The Uair-spike to Dsmash is safe and a good option. Uair-Spike to Utilt to Aerial deals a little more damage but less kill power. But the Uair-spike to meteor dair (to nair to Usmash) is imo the best action out an Uair-spike, because the tech will be quiet rare (the opponent rarely expect it). This little combo deals by far the most damage (40%) and has by far the strongest kill power (Usmash is way better than an aeriel or a Dsmash to kill). So yeah IMO, that combo is the most useful (plus, it's so flashy, i love it).

In general, I really love the combos out of an Uair-spike, because they can be so flashy, surprise your opponent, and deal a nice amount of damage.

OK, I see what you mean now. If you happen to land an Uair spike and the opponent is at the right percent, doing Dair -> Nair -> Usmash deals a lot more damage than the Fsmash follow-up and allows you to choose whether you want to kill off the top with Usmash or off the side with Fsmash depending on your stage position.
Though I`m not sure how reliable the Dair follow-up from Uair spike is. It doesn`t register as a true combo until around 120% which is too high for the Nair -> Usmash combo to work. I`ll have to test it some more.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

I'm pretty sure it's inescapable, unless you tech it. This combo start working around 60%, and you must uair-spike him from full hop height or less.

Oh and i forgot, there's also another way to uair-spike properly, but it's more occasional : out of a diagonal counter, but i'm not sure anymore at which percent it works. So IMO the diagonal counter is in general better than the up (except for some hard punishes at high percent), because it works as a combo starter at mid percent, and also because it catches the opponent more easily (you can easily escpace the up counter by making 2 step forward).

 

[Ookami Hajime]

Video examples from me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cs4dh8CS8

My write up is on this page here: http://smashboards.com/threads/myst...ted-12-12-14-ats.368764/page-12#post-18550739

 

[MartinAW4]

Video examples from me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cs4dh8CS8

My write up is on this page here: http://smashboards.com/threads/myst...ted-12-12-14-ats.368764/page-12#post-18550739

Thanks for the video, I`ll add it to the OP in the notes section. Most of those combos are already in the list, but the meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Smash attack is new. Though I remember having the meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Smash attack combos in the list (they`re still in the v 1.0.3 version), but for some reason I removed them in v. 1.0.4. Maybe the timing changed after the nerfs to Uair which made me think it didn`t truly combo anymore or made it combo at different percents than before. I`ll retest it against Sheik and add it to the list if it works.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

Thanks for the video, I`ll add it to the OP in the notes section. Most of those combos are already in the list, but the meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Smash attack is new. Though I remember having the meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Smash attack combos in the list (they`re still in the v 1.0.3 version), but for some reason I removed them in v. 1.0.4. Maybe the timing changed after the nerfs to Uair which made me think it didn`t truly combo anymore or made it combo at different percents than before. I`ll retest it against Sheik and add it to the list if it works.

I took note of the post patch u-air spike changes.
U-air spike as a combo tool converts differently and I actually think its better than the pre patch u-air spike when it comes to onstage comboing.
It works on everyone to my knowledge

Edit: And I'm happy to help!

 

[Talazala]

Hey, I just picked up Smash 4 (just got it a week ago) and hoping to main Greninja. Does weight variance effect the combo percentage windows at all, i.e. is the dtilt to upsmash from 60% to 120% for everyone or is it spanning the lightest to heaviest characters?

 

[MartinAW4]

Hey, I just picked up Smash 4 (just got it a week ago) and hoping to main Greninja. Does weight variance effect the combo percentage windows at all, i.e. is the dtilt to upsmash from 60% to 120% for everyone or is it spanning the lightest to heaviest characters?

The percentage ranges are affected by weight, rage, move staling and the opponent`s DI. So they will almost never match exactly the % ranges listed here, but they should give you a rough idea when to use which combo.

 

[PHaZeX3R0]

Dis is pretty fun to do .-.

 

[Jaguar360]

I've been messing around in Training mode and found out that D-taunt is guaranteed after U-tilt at low-mid percents. This allows it to lead into an U-smash or a dash attack follow-up. I've only tested on Meta Knight so far. 3-5% is strange.
From 0%-2% and 4%: U-tilt -> D-taunt -> sourspot U-smash 18%
From 0%-5%: U-tilt -> D-taunt -> U-tilt -> sourspot U-smash 23%
From 0%-9%: U-tilt -> D-taunt -> U-tilt -> sweetspot U-smash 30-31%
From 6%-9% and 3%: U-tilt -> D-taunt -> sweetspot U-smash 26%
From 10%-50%: U-tilt -> D-taunt -> Dash Attack -> F-air 26%

U-tilt to d-air is also a thing. Also tested on Meta Knight.
From 0%-45%: U-tilt -> D-air 12%
From 46%-73%: U-tilt -> meteor D-air -> D-air -> F-air 34%
From 74%-151%: U-tilt -> meteor D-air -> D-air 20%
Bless that high jump height.

 

[Plague_2]

I've actually played Ookami a few times (if you see this, you know me as Garlien) and the combos are real. In my first game against him, he pulled off OoS SS Dair > Falling uair > utilt > falling uair > dsmash to KO me starting at around 70%. Greninja definitely has a lot of potential in his dair spike. However, in later games I was aware of these combos and was able to escape a few of them by mixing up DI teching the dair spike, or teching the ground after the falling uair. It's not a true combo unless performed perfectly, but it's a relatively reliable option and is at least guaranteed to get some good percentage.

 

[Deleted member]

If you can Perfect Pivot consistently, set it to tilts, but if you can`t, I reccomend setting the C-stick to smashes which allows you to perform pivot Fsmash, running Usmash and smash attacks in general more reliably.

I would say get used to titls. I was against it at first, but seeing the amount of combo potential by being able to perfect pivot into utilts is insane. If you don't plan on playing too seriously then it's no biggy.

And about being predictable, it means your bro knows what you're about to do because you are using the same patterns. If you just did a dash attack from full screen 3 times in a row, he's gonna expect you to do it again. You have to mix things up and you can use the predictability to condition him into thinking you will do the move again.

I hope this isn't off-topic, but I also have a question on the C-stick and A button, related to setting them to Smash/tilts. I'm a Greninja main as well and I have my C-stick set to Smash and my A button for tilts, but I've had them the other way around before and they do the exact same thing. Is there something I'm missing? I know C-stick smash attacks come out faster (or so I've heard) so I try to use it for smash attacks instead of the A button, but accidental smash attacks do happen with my A button occasionally. I use a GCC for Smash 4 btw.

I've actually played Ookami a few times (if you see this, you know me as Garlien) and the combos are real. In my first game against him, he pulled off OoS SS Dair > Falling uair > utilt > falling uair > dsmash to KO me starting at around 70%. Greninja definitely has a lot of potential in his dair spike. However, in later games I was aware of these combos and was able to escape a few of them by mixing up DI teching the dair spike, or teching the ground after the falling uair. It's not a true combo unless performed perfectly, but it's a relatively reliable option and is at least guaranteed to get some good percentage.

Are you the Greninja playing in Nakat's tournament? If so, nice job. Will be looking out for you.

 

[Shack]

I hope this isn't off-topic, but I also have a question on the C-stick and A button, related to setting them to Smash/tilts. I'm a Greninja main as well and I have my C-stick set to Smash and my A button for tilts, but I've had them the other way around before and they do the exact same thing. Is there something I'm missing? I know C-stick smash attacks come out faster (or so I've heard) so I try to use it for smash attacks instead of the A button, but accidental smash attacks do happen with my A button occasionally. I use a GCC for Smash 4 btw.

You do not need to change the A button, leave it as is. You can use the A button for jabs, tilts and smash attacks. AC Stick is not faster than manually inputting a smash, it is just easier because you can flick it. Sometimes when you input a smash you will charge it by accident (you'll hear a noise when you charge it and see a little spark). If you are fast enough you can do it without the charge frames.

For what I reccomended before, if you set C Stick to tilts, then using it will make tilts come out instead of smashes. That is the only difference, it will not affect your A button at all. I hope that answers your question.

 

[maidson]

OK True Combo thread, in case anyone hasn't been on /r/smashbros in the past 24hrs, it appears we have some good news:

0-68%

10-78%

20-77%

50-92%

The first 2 are confirmed true combos. These last 2 were just posted this morning, but look to me like they're inescapable. Can anyone confirm?

 

[FullMoon]

I think some of those were posted before. While they are really impressive and powerful, it'll be really hard to get those done in a real match because of all the footstools you need, so I don't think we'll see those combos being pulled out in a real match much, if at all.

 

[maidson]

Definitely very hard to execute, but it seems like if you can nail the setup the rest is just down to muscle memory? I could be very wrong as I have yet to successfully do any of these in training, let alone competitive play.

I guess what I mean is yes they are very hard, but they're still true combos aren't they? A guy on /r/smashbros claims to have pulled it off once in For Glory after hours of practice. I can only imagine the feeling...

 

[momochuu]

its just a normal grind to get the muscle memory down for a combo like any other fighting game. the hardest part would be hit confirming into it.

i'm going to spend a lot of time learning it.

 

[FullMoon]

The problem is that it's really difficult to get a footstool to the point of being impractical, if only because if we take DI into account, getting the timing and positioning right for it is going to be really hard to pull off. It looks awesome but I don't think those combos will be used much.

 

[momochuu]

the NAir does so little knockback DI doesn't even really matter that much. i've heard people say a lot of stuff in other games would be impractical because it looks hard, but all it takes is just one person doing it consistently to make people actually grind and learn it themselves.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

The footstool is not difficult; this combo is relatively easy to execute after you get the timing down. The more difficult part of getting it done in an actual match revolves more around quickly reacting to the hit confirm in the heat of a match, rather than the actual execution

edit: tried it. The second foot stool is the hardest part of the combos, but outside of that, we can definitely pull this off if it's in our mind at the moment we land a n-air

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

The footstool is not difficult; this combo is relatively easy to execute after you get the timing down. The more difficult part of getting it done in an actual match revolves more around quickly reacting to the hit confirm in the heat of a match, rather than the actual execution

edit: tried it. The second foot stool is the hardest part of the combos, but outside of that, we can definitely pull this off if it's in our mind at the moment we land a n-air

I was trying this out as well its easy to perform, just need practice to get the timing.

 

[Talazala]

Hey guys, in the third Vine, how is that Greninja doing that quick turn around utilt while sliding?

 

[Lavani]

It's a perfect pivot. Start a dash then flick in the opposite direction for 1 frame, and you'll turn around and slide in your idle animation, free to do all grounded options (in this case, utilt).

 

[Ookami Hajime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq4xeUBrs8k
Sorry for the quality. Just showing some of my dumb stuff

 

[momochuu]

i'm trying to master that nair > footstool > dair > water shuriken loop, but when i do the footstool, sometimes the character just flies up after dair instead of doing a stand in place. does anyone have any idea what causes this? it seems kinda random honestly.

 

[Ookami Hajime]

i'm trying to master that nair > footstool > dair > water shuriken loop, but when i do the footstool, sometimes the character just flies up after dair instead of doing a stand in place. does anyone have any idea what causes this? it seems kinda random honestly.

Only thing I can imagine is that you're either timing it incorrectly, it is character dependent, or something with the percentages.

 

[FullMoon]

i'm trying to master that nair > footstool > dair > water shuriken loop, but when i do the footstool, sometimes the character just flies up after dair instead of doing a stand in place. does anyone have any idea what causes this? it seems kinda random honestly.

I believe past a certain percentage they'll always fly up after d-air instead of remaining on the ground. Other meteors do that as well if you hit someone with the sweetspot when they're at a low percentage. It varies from character to character based on weight as well. You also need to be careful because you need to strike them with d-air just as they are touching the ground or else you might make them bounce off the ground I think.