Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Cheerilee]

The only risk that support shares with everyone else is feeding gold to the enemy team. In a sense they have the least risk in that regard because they're the least focused due being the least valuable member in a teamfight and being worth the least gold.

Completely untrue. If this is the case when you play support then you are playing the wrong champions, especially in a Solo Q environment. If you don't play the role of support with the mindset that you are literally going into bottom lane to 1 v. 2 the enemy team because your ADC is going to be potatoes stupid then you aren't in for a good time. Take the champion Blitzcrank. If he sets up a pull correctly from the enemy line he can essentially change the flow of a game by grabbing the most fed member of the enemy team, knocking them up, silencing them, and then leaving him to try to escape with his base MS alone while your teammates are beating up on him. An AoE silence can completely change the flow of the game. Similar idea is Sona whose ultimate is an AoE stun or Soraka who also has an AoE silence. These abilities when applied correctly are game changing in a team fight. Or take Alistar who is the closest thing to unkillable in a team fight, can ultimate in and basically soak in all the skillshots and knock high threat carries into walls while trampling them with his passive. If you're not being focused as a support or a threat in a team fight then you are not successfully supporting your team.

Supports don't have a gold resource that they're responsible for, that's why they're not burdened with having to get combat stats and carry. When another role makes a play like a roam, they have to get something out of it because they lose gold if they do. That's a risk. The support is free to roam much more than any other role because they don't lose gold when they do.

Supports are incredibly gold reliant which is the reason why the meta is to run Gold Per Minute quints and why items like Spellthief's and the gold coin upgrade have GPM statistics tied into them. If the enemy team has a fed support laner then you can expect to be in for a very rough time because the enemy will be able to constantly poke you down, make bolder plays, and even get away with riskier plays because that support has higher stats to tank your damage and give his ADC more leeway to engage your team.

When a support decides to roam like a Blitzcrank or a Thresh to make a Q grab play in mid lane, they not only lose out on experience, but they also lose out on gold. Supports roaming take on incredible risk like Softie said. They might encounter the enemy jungler if they stupidly decide to travel up the river to assist mid and if you aren't able to land a well executed Q that gets capitalized on by your mid-laner then you have to waste time going back into lane and hope that your ADC wasn't hard engaged during the time period you were gone.

Consequently, teamfighting is easier as support and has less risk because you simply need to land your abilities on the right targets and you've done your job. Other roles have to do that to, but they also need combat stats to either take or put out damage. In the case of the mid or the ADC, they have to do this under way more focus from the enemy team, the support is the lowest priority target.

If it's a support oriented role that doesn't scale with base stats then they are likely a champion that will scale with CDR and tank related items. There is no such thing as any champion that doesn't have any reliance on any base stat. Your ADC will be focused, however as a support you should be able to easily peel for your ADC and have them focus on killing you first. If you aren't a high priority target then you aren't an effective support. Given that your favorite champion is Zed it must be easy for you to get to that ADC when you are getting peeled off by a Sona or a Nami with strictly meta utility builds and little to no armor. However, I personally hate the assassin meta and pick champions like Blitzcrank who would be able to ult you so that if you do go in with Death Mark you won't likely get out. Also the ADC very rarely gives themselves the tools needed to escape from focus like buying a QSS even though that will build into a mercurial scrimitar for them which is hardly a bad item to have as it gives you massive AD for the slot it occupies.

Even vision control is easier when you're a support. Yes you obviously have to put more wards down and do more sweeping. But at a high level of play, especially 5s, everyone has to invest heavily in vision. Unlike supports, who can afford to buy a sightstone because they don't need stats, other roles constantly have to spend gold on vision when they need to be spending it on stats. Thus it becomes difficult to find the right balance between spending gold on vision and stats. Supports don't have this problem because they just a get a sightstone with no real consequence. The vision game is probably the hardest for the jungler because they have a larger vision burden than the CSers but have a lower gold income. They can get a sighttone but unlike supports they pay a price for by sacrificing combat stats. If anything most of the risky warding is done by other roles, supports rarely ever ward neutral or enemy territory without an escort.

Sighstone is not the only effective item that can be bought for additional vision when you can buy the trinket upgrade for 250 gold and you get a chargeable three wards. Also the investment for a pink is only 100 gold which is barely anything by mid to late game and the bigger issue comes with the item space it occupies. I personally don't play 5S, however my experience in Solo Q is that I have enough vision with the three ward charge and I don't really need any more.

Also sightstone which takes up a crucial item spot is a huge investment for any support. If you're a tank you could buy two cloth armors, a green, and a pink which opens up an early game warden's mail which will neutralize the threat of the ADC a lot. You can use ruby crystal and buy a crystal for extra mana to set you up for an early crystalline embracer to set yourself up for early stacks on rod of ages which will give you a huge boost in taking damage in team fights and also in ganks.

If your support isn't getting gold then your ADC shouldn't be getting gold easily either assuming the enemy team is using their gold advantages to pressure you in lane. A support that has an immense gold income lead will be untouchable and can use that advantage to assist their ADC in easily freezing the lane and securing CS away from the enemy team. When you roam you not only put yourself at risk by exploring jungle and lose out on gold/exp but you also put your ADC in a 1 v. 2 position where they will run into a difficult time cs'ing unless they have a convenient pushed wave which even though is risky if the enemy has a strong engage type support that can tank tower hits.

Also the jungler effectively is able to establish free ward points for his team by killing shuttle crabs in the river which offer the most holistic vision experience outside of support constantly warding river for your team and is one of the best defensive wards to prevent the enemy from ganking your lane and/or stealing dragon. IIRC the crabs also give +80 gold so it's literally killing two birds with one stone by going for crabs early game around bottom lane if dragon is something that is going to be contested.

 

[KRDsonic]

Out of curiosity Dre, what is your goal with this argument? You responded to a silly message that relates to the title of the thread, so it's not that you're trying to defend yourself on anything. Seeing as you're ignoring points that people are saying, and are just trying to tell people basically "no, you're wrong", you aren't attempted to learn anything out of this. You aren't looking to improve your gameplay, because rather than listening to ideas, you're simply shutting them out.

Is it that you're looking to defend the roles that you play? If so, no one said anything negative about the roles you play. Is it that you feel like you know more about the game than everyone else and want to share your knowledge? If so, look at your rank, your win/loss ratio, etc. and then ask yourself: "Am I winning all of my games and making no mistakes? Is there honestly nothing that I have left to learn about this game?" If you are not a perfect player, and do have things to learn about the game still, then you are only hindering yourself by ignoring ideas that other people have and going out of your way simply to tell them that they are wrong.

So I am curious, what is your goal in this argument? It's not to defend yourself, because no one said anything against what you believe and tried to tell you that you're wrong (at least not until you started an argument). It's not to learn more and further your growth as a League of Legends player.

Is it that you feel a need to "prove people wrong" when they have a different mindset from your own? If so, why? Are you gaining anything from this? Is anyone else gaining anything from you choosing to start this argument? Or are you just hoping to make yourself sound better by saying that your role is harder than other people's roles? If you are truly an amazing player, then your gameplay should speak for itself, and thus, no argument is needed.

So once again, what is your goal with this argument?

 

[Cheerilee]

Edit: The main reason support is blamed for things often is because support has to keep track of a lot, usually is the one doing most of the warding (though everyone should be warding), and the support usually has a bigger impact in the bottom lane than the adc does. Bottom lane is often won by whichever team has the better support, unless you're playing someone like Soraka. At least from my experiences, that's how it tends to be. Some adcs can carry their lane, but usually they'll be focused on farming while it's the support's job to keep them safe to farm while making it hard for the opponent to farm.

I want to touch on this one more time because this is what I have observed and have had to deal with in my current elo. The support usually determines what the conditions are in the lane. Whether their style is poke, burst, or sustain they often dictate "what" the varying health is on the lane and the status of units i.e. stunned, slowed, or knocked up. ADC's however have almost complete control over where these conditions are happening in lane based on how they have farmed the minion wave. If the ADC continually hit minions when they were at full health then the wave is likely all the way towards the enemy tower. If the ADC only last hit and the enemy ADC has been hitting like a truck, then the wave is probably around your tower or under it.

When it comes to "impact" on the lane I believe that an ADC who does not know what the hell they are doing is way worse than a support who does not know what they are doing in lane. An ADC that is willing to lose CS in order to harass and have the wave towards their tower can prevent a bad support from feeding because although they may be low on health due to bad exchanges, they are close to tower and can easily retreat forcing the enemy team to make risky decisions if they want to secure kills. Also, an ADC who knows how to manage his wave essentially can guarantee an early game lead by asking the jungler to camp for easy ganks and securing dragon buffs and bottom tower fairly early on.

A good support with a bad ADC unfortunately is primarily strapped for the ride and has to be even more proactive to prevent his ADC from feeding by going in too deep into enemy territory. The limitation factor for you as a support is that you have no idea of the proficiency of your ADC and you don't know whether you want a champion that has better engage or disengage potential for securing an early lead in lane or for simply preventing yourself from losing lane quickly. It doesn't matter how good of a support you are if you have an ADC that pushes minions into enemy territory and then loses out on CS because they are getting poked down from the enemy turret.

 

[Dre89]

Out of curiosity Dre, what is your goal with this argument? You responded to a silly message that relates to the title of the thread, so it's not that you're trying to defend yourself on anything. Seeing as you're ignoring points that people are saying, and are just trying to tell people basically "no, you're wrong", you aren't attempted to learn anything out of this. You aren't looking to improve your gameplay, because rather than listening to ideas, you're simply shutting them out.

Is it that you're looking to defend the roles that you play? If so, no one said anything negative about the roles you play. Is it that you feel like you know more about the game than everyone else and want to share your knowledge? If so, look at your rank, your win/loss ratio, etc. and then ask yourself: "Am I winning all of my games and making no mistakes? Is there honestly nothing that I have left to learn about this game?" If you are not a perfect player, and do have things to learn about the game still, then you are only hindering yourself by ignoring ideas that other people have and going out of your way simply to tell them that they are wrong.

So I am curious, what is your goal in this argument? It's not to defend yourself, because no one said anything against what you believe and tried to tell you that you're wrong (at least not until you started an argument). It's not to learn more and further your growth as a League of Legends player.

Is it that you feel a need to "prove people wrong" when they have a different mindset from your own? If so, why? Are you gaining anything from this? Is anyone else gaining anything from you choosing to start this argument? Or are you just hoping to make yourself sound better by saying that your role is harder than other people's roles? If you are truly an amazing player, then your gameplay should speak for itself, and thus, no argument is needed.

So once again, what is your goal with this argument?

Thing is, I've always played tanky/utility champions like Shen, Naut, Wukong (more of a bruiser really). The only champion that I can make an impact with in higher level games that isn't in that mold is Rumble. I'm just trying to learn Zed because he's fun. I also suspect that people like me who have always played utility champs are only content playing them because they haven't had extended success playing damage champs and running around blowing people up. I think for most people that experience is more fun than setting up/preventing kills. I know people have different tastes but at the same time you rarely ever see mids and ADCs who always get fed and blow people up decide they want to main support. Whereas in my experience most people who are support and jungle mains normally aren't very good mid laners or ADCs for their level, and have rarely solo carried games with their damage in those roles.

Like I said I play utility champs, but I accept that those champions are far easier to play and are not 'manly' in any sense because there is minimal risk attached to playing them. I feel that people who have never played the carry roles don't understand how much harder they are. I just hate when tanky tops or CC supports just play reactively all game then complain about their bad teammates. A lot of them don't understand that the carry roles have to take a lot more risks than they do to fulfil their duties.

I also hate when people think they're 'carrying' on utility champs. Utility champs can carry phases of the early game, such as the support carrying bot lane, or a CC jungler carrying the laning phase with map pressure. But they never truly carry games. There's a difference between playing well and winning a game with a clutch play, and actually carrying a game. The best they can do is give the actual carries a good chance to carry. I cringe when supports think they're carrying just because they're playing well. They don't understand how much easier it is for them to full their role's duties than it is for the carry roles. It's easier to fulfill because it has less responsibilties and consequently less impact.

Don't get me wrong, optimising the role is still hard and takes a lot of skill, though it's not as hard as other roles. It's just that it's honestly not that important to have a good support if you have good carries. When I was a fresh 30 I was playing support in ranked 5s against teams full of NA Diamonds and we won games even though I had no idea what I was doing. The fact we had an exceptional mid laner and our top just played Renekton (back then everyone took ignite so he was basically guaranteed to get kills) removed the need for me to be good.

 

[Cheerilee]

"... me wrong..." - Dre 2015

It happened guys. It finally happened.​

 

[KRDsonic]

Dre, why did you quote my post and then go on to ignore the whole post? I will ask again. "What is your goal with this argument?"

 

[Dre89]

Dre, why did you quote my post and then go on to ignore the whole post? I will ask again. "What is your goal with this argument?"

You asked what my goal was, and I explained it was to debunk the original idea that support is 'manly'. You also suggested that I may be trying to defend the roles I play, and I explained that I had always mained utility champions like the people I'm talking about.

 

[Soft Serve]

The "supporting is manly" was because the thread title was last updated when Braum Came out. It wasn't a serious claim (I think)

 

[KRDsonic]

You asked what my goal was, and I explained it was to debunk the original idea that support is 'manly'. You also suggested that I may be trying to defend the roles I play, and I explained that I had always mained utility champions like the people I'm talking about.

Again, you aren't answering. "Why?" Why does it matter to you if someone thinks differently than you? What about this post "Supporting is always manly. Supporting as Volibear is even more manly." makes such an impact for you that you decided you have to spend time out of your life to type paragraph after paragraph after paragraph to "prove someone wrong"? Are you really gaining anything from this?

 

[Dre89]

Again, you aren't answering. "Why?" Why does it matter to you if someone thinks differently than you? What about this post "Supporting is always manly. Supporting as Volibear is even more manly." makes such an impact for you that you decided you have to spend time out of your life to type paragraph after paragraph after paragraph to "prove someone wrong"? Are you really gaining anything from this?

Well if it was just one person's opinion then I wouldn't mind, but it seems that a lot of people think like that so I just wanted to give my opinion that it's not really manly or a position you can truly carry from. It may have come off as anger but it wasn't meant to be aggressive.

I'm sure if I said something like 'Shen is the hardest champ in the game because of his ult' people would tell me I'm wrong too. It's not an absolutely ******** opinion, but it's highly contentious and most likely wrong.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dre, why did you quote my post and then go on to ignore the whole post? I will ask again. "What is your goal with this argument?"

That's sort of his thing...

 

[Dre89]

That's sort of his thing...

That reminded me of how you said tank junglers weren't viable in high level play right before Rammus won two games in worlds lol. I mentioned it too but you just ignored it.

Keen to finally explain how a non-viable jungler won two games at Worlds? Or are you still going to dodge the bullet

 

[adumbrodeus]

That reminded me of how you said tank junglers weren't viable in high level play right before Rammus won two games in worlds lol. I mentioned it too but you just ignored it.

Keen to finally explain how a non-viable jungler won two games at Worlds? Or are you still going to dodge the bullet

I\m honestly not sure, that was a while ago. It could've been that Rammus got strong enough in other areas that he was the sole exception in spite of tank's general itemization problems and I didn't account for that, that he got buffed enough after the fact to be what I said before, that the meta shifted, or that the teams that won with him were confident in their ability to win earlygame in spite of their jungle's dueling weakness because tank junglers still provide more lategame utility. But whatever I don't care to debate this issue with you now, both because I don't know it was right or wrong but also because it was even irrelevant to that conversation.

You brought it up as a "here's where you've been wrong" point when my point had nothing to do with you simply being wrong per say, it was ignoring when meta changes advantaged champs rather then them simply being hyper-powerful when you called it. It was just intended to change the subject of the conversation to something you felt was more advantageous.

The other issues I brought up were, your constant attempting to change the subject (which trying to show cases where I had been wrong in the past was certainly, because none of the examples you brought up were related to me ignoring meta shift and heck you brought up rumble which I didn't even disagree with you with, I just wanted you to account for changes in meta), and the fact that you constantly pretended they said different things then they did. Which amusingly enough you did in response by adding "ignoring points" to "acting like they said different things then they did", hence my diatribe.


Given that you still have the "misrepresentation of what other people say" issue I have no desire to discuss whether you were right or wrong on the tank issue.

But lay off on the rhetorical tricks that lack substance, they may work on some people but I'll call you out on it every time and so will other regulars who've noticed this after I pointed it out.

 

[Dre89]

Anyone got any good solutions to the cutlass bug? I tried dumbcasting it but it feels really slow and harder to aim.

I\m honestly not sure, that was a while ago. It could've been that Rammus got strong enough in other areas that he was the sole exception in spite of tank's general itemization problems and I didn't account for that, that he got buffed enough after the fact to be what I said before, that the meta shifted, or that the teams that won with him were confident in their ability to win earlygame in spite of their jungle's dueling weakness because tank junglers still provide more lategame utility. But whatever I don't care to debate this issue with you now, both because I don't know it was right or wrong but also because it was even irrelevant to that conversation.

You brought it up as a "here's where you've been wrong" point when my point had nothing to do with you simply being wrong per say, it was ignoring when meta changes advantaged champs rather then them simply being hyper-powerful when you called it. It was just intended to change the subject of the conversation to something you felt was more advantageous.

The other issues I brought up were, your constant attempting to change the subject (which trying to show cases where I had been wrong in the past was certainly, because none of the examples you brought up were related to me ignoring meta shift and heck you brought up rumble which I didn't even disagree with you with, I just wanted you to account for changes in meta), and the fact that you constantly pretended they said different things then they did. Which amusingly enough you did in response by adding "ignoring points" to "acting like they said different things then they did", hence my diatribe.


Given that you still have the "misrepresentation of what other people say" issue I have no desire to discuss whether you were right or wrong on the tank issue.

But lay off on the rhetorical tricks that lack substance, they may work on some people but I'll call you out on it every time and so will other regulars who've noticed this after I pointed it out.

Thing is, in many cases with champs I pre-emptively hyped nothing did change. Rumble has been picked consistently in China since season 3. What you're calling 'meta' or 'meta changes' really just means current NA and maybe EU FOTM at the time. In all these periods where Rumble apparently didn't suit the meta he was still popular in China. Likewise when I was hyping Jax, people here were telling me he didn't fit the meta, yet he was getting play in EU and Challenger series. He didn't get popular because of some meta shift, it was because Zion stomped 2 games with him and started forcing bans, so everyone copied him and picked Jax.

I've rated things like solo lane Lulu and Suppautilus since season 3 but I don't mention them because I acknowledge that it took changes for them to get popular. People just don't want to accept that pros aren't perfect, and they're not always aware of every strong option. Tons of champions become FOTM not because of any changes, but because someone stomps with them so others copy it.

 

[Cheerilee]

@ adumbrodeus I wasn't aware you were a masochist. Tell us more about how much you like it up your butt.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, meta is what's popular, what you're consistently missing is that a lot of champs become powerful because they're particularly good at working with or against things that got popular. Even when you're right in calling it, you never even consider whether a shift in what else is popular created it or if they're just powerful enough on their own. You just toot your own horn about it.

Also, looking back nobody really disagreed with you on jax. The only person who was disagreeing with you during that line of conversation was shaya who disagreed with you on the general power of melee adcs and made condemnatory comments towards the general adc being overused. You were on completely different topics, he never engaged you on jax.

It seems like you have a very warped memory of past events in the thread.

edit:

@ adumbrodeus I wasn't aware you were a masochist. Tell us more about how much you like it up your butt.

LOL!

 

[Cheerilee]

If anyone read your paragraph it is obvious that the point you are making about is how an established meta can have an affect on which champions are advantaged or have certain types of advantages. For example, tank jungler meta tends to be more gradual and farm oriented in comparison to the previous meta which was Lee Sin / Vi who could come out of the bushes and harass you at level two. Which means that if you decide to run on the previous meta, then you have a distinct advantage in early game compared to a Sejuani who needs that Bami's Cinder / Warden's Mail / Warmog's in order to directly contest pressure being put on the map.

You never discussed how meta develops or why it becomes popular. It's transparent that @ Dre89 made was taking your statement "... when meta changes advantaged champions" to "meta changes" are based around advantaged champions. Not to mention several more things Dre followed with that are reasons for why certain regions have favored picks i.e. Chinese Solo Q is more inclined to engage in constant group fighting compared to NA/EU based on caster's statements at World's which is why it makes sense for Rumble and Jarvan IV to be much more favored. However, ultimately do not address anything to do with your statement about how a champion or category of champions have limitations in terms of when they peak and how it influences the game.

 

[Leacero]

just think about this: all this time you guys have spent writing in this thread you could have instead spent writing a thesis for a PhD

nerds

 

[adumbrodeus]

... because all those things are contextual, my statement was a criticism of not accounting for meta changes making surrounding characters popular, not a complete dissertation on how the meta changes and the differences between because I will not have a discussion that requires such detail with Dre. Period.

 

[Espy Rose]

I just wish we could comment on dumb stuff without wading through this crap.
Like Le Blanc.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lulu in S3 didn't get used mid or top because the support changes with her slows health etc. scaling didn't happen yet.
Otherwise the first ever "Ap mid lulu" was Zamphira from /vg/ and he just went flat penetration items to do work in teamfights or skirmishes (haunting sorc morello void etc.)

Naut support wasn't a thing or jungler for S3 after the all stars and onwards because meta shifts and naut didn't get buffs until S5 where the whole tank meta even became a thing cause cinderhulk exclusively.

Also Balls rumble is more terrifying than Zion's and it forced more bans than him. Rumble was a pick in NA too, just not more than LPL. All your data is wrong, Dre. Just felt like saying that.

 

[Minato]

I see text. So much text.

 

[Dre89]

Lulu in S3 didn't get used mid or top because the support changes with her slows health etc. scaling didn't happen yet.
Otherwise the first ever "Ap mid lulu" was Zamphira from /vg/ and he just went flat penetration items to do work in teamfights or skirmishes (haunting sorc morello void etc.)

Naut support wasn't a thing or jungler for S3 after the all stars and onwards because meta shifts and naut didn't get buffs until S5 where the whole tank meta even became a thing cause cinderhulk exclusively.

Also Balls rumble is more terrifying than Zion's and it forced more bans than him. Rumble was a pick in NA too, just not more than LPL. All your data is wrong, Dre. Just felt like saying that.

When did I ever say Lulu or Naut were used in S3

Rumble wasn't always a pick in NA, he had phases. There were times when Rumble was not even Balls' third choice top despite being 9-0 on him at the time. Right before Worlds he wasn't played in NA, then during Worlds NA people were like' Rumble is viable again' because the Chinese and the Koreans used him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's because the trifecta of Graves Ezreal Corki moved top lane for Mundo Shyvana Trundle. Even then Rumble was STILL chosen here or there along with Ryze.

And

I've rated things like solo lane Lulu and Suppautilus since season 3 but I don't mention them because I acknowledge that it took changes for them to get popular.

Do you not read your own posts? Sure NA and EU copy things Koreans do, but I can certainly say you must be ****ing insane if you honestly think just cause Koreaans used him a couple times in S3 Worlds NA/EU decided he was good again.

It's nothing like that, it's just characters like Rumble Corki and Orianna will always be good and have random moments where they always find a way to slither themselves back into the meta because their kits are just that good.

 

[Dre89]

I find it funny that I was always told old Naut wasn't viable as a supp because his Q didn't go through minions and his CC is underwhelming. Funny that his Q or CC hasn't changed but now he's apparently viable because his E is better.

That's because the trifecta of Graves Ezreal Corki moved top lane for Mundo Shyvana Trundle. Even then Rumble was STILL chosen here or there along with Ryze.

And

Do you not read your own posts? Sure NA and EU copy things Koreans do, but I can certainly say you must be ****ing insane if you honestly think just cause Koreaans used him a couple times in S3 Worlds NA/EU decided he was good again.

It's nothing like that, it's just characters like Rumble Corki and Orianna will always be good and have random moments where they always find a way to slither themselves back into the meta because their kits are just that good.

Are you serious lol

I said I rated them since season 3, I never said they were used then. That was my point, that I didn't brag about hyping them before they became FOTM because I acknowledge they got changed before they got popular.

 

[Soft Serve]

Naut was never a good support until now because his team fight wasn't what was needed
he engages and hold people in place once he can get in range, but in assassin/burst meta that has been so prominent he isn't as useful. What does ulting a zed/lb do to help peel them off the adc unless you're just standing in the back lines already. His kit is really good at holding front lines in place and forcing openings to the opposing back lines, which is really strong right now because it's such a Frontline buiser/long team fight meta atm

Saying support naut or lane bully lulu were good before they got good doesn't mean anything because they weren't good picks until changes went though that affected them

 

[Dre89]

Naut was never a good support until now because his team fight wasn't what was needed
he engages and hold people in place once he can get in range, but in assassin/burst meta that has been so prominent he isn't as useful. What does ulting a zed/lb do to help peel them off the adc unless you're just standing in the back lines already. His kit is really good at holding front lines in place and forcing openings to the opposing back lines, which is really strong right now because it's such a Frontline buiser/long team fight meta atm

Saying support naut or lane bully lulu were good before they got good doesn't mean anything because they weren't good picks until changes went though that affected them

How would CC lockdown not be good in an assassin meta? That's like exactly what an assassin wants for an opening lol

You're post is confusing. You're saying you should be CCing their frontline but shouldn't be in your own backline peeling. You should never be CCing the enemy frontline unless you're peeling for your backline, so to do that you'd have to be in the backline yourself. Besides, if you're support, standing next to your ADC and peeling with your 4 CCs is perfectly fine if you have other initiators.

 

[Soft Serve]

I specifically said ulting people diving your back line. The ultimate with travel time long enough for most assassin's to do their burst. There are better supports for immediate peels who aren't just useless if they stay closer the back line, like thresh or sona. until this recent patch, thresh did everything support naut wanted to do but better.

If you don't understand how naut uses his slows and passive to keep opposing front liners/bruiser's from moving past him, and how if naut is down that he isn't in posi to on to stop most assassin dives, you either don't know how naut plays or you didn't actually read my post.

Naut is only good as a support right now because of longevity, persistent close range cc, and ulting carrys

 

[john!]

naut's always been good u sheep

 

[KRDsonic]

I hardly ever see Rumble used at low levels. I'm not sure if it makes me sad because there's so few, or happy because he was my main for so long and I feel unique.

Both Rumble and Gnar are the two champions I seem to always be able to fall back on to break a losing streak.

 

[Dre89]

The only difficult things about Rumble are CSing and controlling minion waves. His trading potential after level 4 is stupid and he doesn't have a consumable resource to worry about. The only skill to his resource management is knowing how to optimise your damage with danger zone E-W-E-overheat Q combos.

I specifically said ulting people diving your back line. The ultimate with travel time long enough for most assassin's to do their burst. There are better supports for immediate peels who aren't just useless if they stay closer the back line, like thresh or sona. until this recent patch, thresh did everything support naut wanted to do but better.

If you don't understand how naut uses his slows and passive to keep opposing front liners/bruiser's from moving past him, and how if naut is down that he isn't in posi to on to stop most assassin dives, you either don't know how naut plays or you didn't actually read my post.

Naut is only good as a support right now because of longevity, persistent close range cc, and ulting carrys

Naut always had durability and persistent close range CC. The amount of CC he has hasn't changed. He always had extended lockdown capabilties after an initial ability rotation because of his passive.

If you're locking down their frontline, then it's because you're in your own backline peeling for your carry. Naut has the option of either frontlining and engaging on the enemy backline, or backlining to peel the enemy frontline. Or, he can get an initiation with a hook then drop off and peel for his backline with the rest of his CC.

Thresh is a really good support, but he offers different things. He can't run around snaring everyone with autos after using his spells. Not saying Naut is better, but they have different strengths.

Zed is incredibly easy for Naut to peel. You just passive or Q him when he appears after ulting the carry then chain the rest of your CC if necessary. You'll be right next to him, so if use the first CC, ult, then use your second hard CC he'll be chain CCd into your ult, meaning he'll be helpless for like 3 seconds tanking damage from your backline. In other words. he'll get blown up. Other assassins can be dealt with in similar ways.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Naut always had durability and persistent close range CC. The amount of CC he has hasn't changed. He always had extended lockdown capabilties after an initial ability rotation because of his passive.

If you're locking down their frontline, then it's because you're in your own backline peeling for your carry. Naut has the option of either frontlining and engaging on the enemy backline, or backlining to peel the enemy frontline. Or, he can get an initiation with a hook then drop off and peel for his backline with the rest of his CC.

How does that even remotely address this?

Naut was never a good support until now because his team fight wasn't what was needed
he engages and hold people in place once he can get in range, but in assassin/burst meta that has been so prominent he isn't as useful. What does ulting a zed/lb do to help peel them off the adc unless you're just standing in the back lines already. His kit is really good at holding front lines in place and forcing openings to the opposing back lines, which is really strong right now because it's such a Frontline buiser/long team fight meta atm

Saying support naut or lane bully lulu were good before they got good doesn't mean anything because they weren't good picks until changes went though that affected them

Or his followup discussion?

He was saying that naut always had good close range persistent CC but close range persistent CC is very valuable against current popular compositions whereas it wasn't valuable against prior compositions.

Again I'm unsure whether you're even reading the posts you address or if you're just consciously pretending they say entirely different things.

If it's an attention problem, I kindly request that make an outline of key point before responding so you can group you be sure you have a firm grasp.

If you're just pretending they say different things well, dat s*** don't fly here anymore and I remain curious as to why you would bother when it's so transparent.

 

[Dre89]

How does that even remotely address this?



Or his followup discussion?

He was saying that naut always had good close range persistent CC but close range persistent CC is very valuable against current popular compositions whereas it wasn't valuable against prior compositions.

Again I'm unsure whether you're even reading the posts you address or if you're just consciously pretending they say entirely different things.

If it's an attention problem, I kindly request that make an outline of key point before responding so you can group you be sure you have a firm grasp.

If you're just pretending they say different things well, dat s*** don't fly here anymore and I remain curious as to why you would bother when it's so transparent.

No, he said that ulting an assassin doesn't do anything unless you're already standing in your backline, implying that a supp Naut standing in his backline is somehow bad. I explained how Naut is good at peeling assassins, which shows that he would've been fine in the assassin meta.

I also don't get the logic of how he is viable in this current tank meta, but apparently wasn't viable in the tank meta of early season 4, where dive tanks like Renekton Shyv and Vi ruled, despite his CC being the same.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The main reason Naut support wasnt good season 4 was the current meta didnt favor him and most popular supports countered him, not that he was necessarily bad, he just didnt fit the bot lane play style at the time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, he said that ulting an assassin doesn't do anything unless you're already standing in your backline, implying that a supp Naut standing in his backline is somehow bad. I explained how Naut is good at peeling assassins, which shows that he would've been fine in the assassin meta.

I also don't get the logic of how he is viable in this current tank meta, but apparently wasn't viable in the tank meta of early season 4, where dive tanks like Renekton Shyv and Vi ruled, despite his CC being the same.

And you should've objected with that since it actually addresses his post.

 

[KRDsonic]

I think I probably should start playing other roles more soon. I just played several games, and one of our friends invited two of his other friends, and they kept going duo bot together. I didn't realize that I now feel out of my comfort zone when I don't get support or adc. I mean, I was doing completely fine in jungle and top, but it felt weird lol. I know most of the bottom lane matchups so well, and I don't don't know top lane or jungle matchups that well anymore. I don't know any mid matchups at all, but that's fine since I hate mid.

I did get adc one game and went Caitlyn, and on my god she is so much easier to use than Kog'maw. It felt weird being able to actually extend without the fear of being caught out and having no way to escape.

 

[Plum]

I also don't get the logic of how he is viable in this current tank meta, but apparently wasn't viable in the tank meta of early season 4, where dive tanks like Renekton Shyv and Vi ruled, despite his CC being the same.

Because there were a lot of champions that were extremely strong then that have since been nerfed, and he's been buffed multiple times.
You've tried to make similar arguments in the past, and literally every time somebody in this thread tells you this, and you still come back to it. Is it really hard to grasp? Other supports have been nerfed, an indirect buff, and he was directly buffed. It's that easy. Rewind back to season 4 and ask yourself why you would pick Nautilus (who mind you was a worse champion than he currently is) as a tank support when you could have picked Leona in her prime? Also consider the fact that in season 4 it was more important that a support brought hard engage to a team than it is now because the fighter junglers strong in season 4 had weak engage compared to the tank junglers we see now. Naut has a million forms of CC, and his peel is excellent because of it, but his engage is pretty bad.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@ Plum as much as I bang on his refusal to acknowledge that meta changes, it's far less annoying then his habit of acting like people said completely different things then what they said.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Loving the snowball summoning spell from Poro King in ARAM.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah this changes everything, like Annie becoming more obnoxious than Kata.