Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Player-3]

hots is hella fun ive been playing it a bit


add me shaya wampuh#1353

 

[Z'zgashi]

Anyone played Heroes of the Storm?

yes

 

[Dre89]

So I played on my low Bronze account for the first time in weeks, and I remembered why I don't play it on it anymore. Played, Killed Yasuo 3-4 times in lane, got roams off bot to win that lane and got drag. I'm like 9-3 or something, but our Trundle fed Fiora 4 solokills in lane so we auto-lose the game because we have no targeted CC other than Trist ult.

I'd say she's the best soloq champion in the game. I've always thought she's insanely broken. People think she's bad because 99% of melee ADC players are dumb. Any competent assassin could player her effectively at a high elo because she doesn't take much skill outside of fundamentals.

I also find it funny how people make out she's just a noob-stomper, yet she had a 58% win-rate in Diamond. She also currently top 10 for top laner win-rate in Plat+

 

[Espy Rose]

She's broken when your team has no way to lock her down.

 

[KRDsonic]

That's why if you see your team picking champs without much cc, you'd better pick one with some hard cc.

 

[Dre89]

She's broken when your team has no way to lock her down.

Depends though, the same thing goes for any assassin really.

If she has other threats on her team, or at least a frontline that demands peel, she can flank and just track the CCs like a conventional assassin. You can get a Ghostblade on her to make this easier to do. Hydra plus any other AD item basically lets you 100-0 an ADC at any stage of the game, her damage is that stupid.

Because her ult makes her untargetable you have to be able to CC and burst her either before she Qs the backline, or right after she Qs but before she can ult. That's why her only real counterplay aside from exhaust is instant targeted CC like a Fiddle fear. For a squishy she takes such a massive investment to deal with, so if her team has any other threats you're in big trouble.

Pretty much the only time she's ever easy to deal is if her team is so far behind that you can afford to tank their damage without having to commit your CC or any major CDs. But in relatively close game that won't be the case.

If she managed to kills the carry and live, she then becomes a hypercarry with AoE lifesteal damage of a huge attack speed steroid

 

[Cheerilee]

Fiora's strength is the utility she gets from having two lunges with her Q. It's really the only factor that allows her to be serviceable with two steroid passives that enhance her autos and the only factor why you would want to play her over Master Yi. She also gets hard countered by solid top laners and even flex pick mid laners like Vlad or Ryze who have ways of dealing with her when she's in range. I would never recommend someone else to play her, however she is a great champion for punishing people who make bad plays and is a do-it or lose-it champion that makes you feel like you won or lost the game for the team.

 

[Cheerilee]

Fiora is easy to deal with. The issue is when people don't have a big enough champion pool or aren't cautious about Fiora. The problem more so is that if someone uses Fiora in Diamond like Gbay it's likely because that they are a one-trick pony or someone who picks her into ideal conditions. For example, as a last pick or second to last pick. This is primarily because of how hard she can be countered by Jax who is literally her kyrptonite and actually fulfill the same responsibilities she does. There are also very good top lane or junglers out there who can nullify a lot of what she does like Sion or Tryndamere who can stop her from split pushing and taking down objectives and are more useful than her since they actually bring more to the table when they TP into a lane for a surprise gank.

 

[KRDsonic]

I've always found Fiora easy to deal with as Rumble as well.

 

[Cheerilee]

So I know there's another thread already for it (although yesterday it wasn't too active yet), but this is me in my "I'm over league because of their champion designs/balance decisions" and a new alternative is out there! Anyone played Heroes of the Storm? Seems strategically different in a lot of ways, but at the same time that simplicity seems to produce good things. Multiple different levels with slightly different objectives to keep it fresh to combat that feeling though. It seems fun and I'll probably be playing it with friends for a while until we regret it or similar. Unfortunate that it's another "hard core grind" to get things game, but eh, it's using a league business model. The good news is that American servers are linked with Australian/Oceania ones, so the no.1 thing that I've wanted in league forever is available by default. So if anyone wants to play with me/us sometime, all my long missed league buddies can finally do so~

How does Heroes of the Storm compare to game like DOTA 2?

 

[Dre89]

I've always found Fiora easy to deal with as Rumble as well.

Fiora loses lane to most strong top laners unless she takes ignite and they take TP. But she's not reliant on getting solokills on her laner to snowball. Once she gets a Hydra, she can 1v1 a lot of champions that are ahead of her gold-wise. She gets most of her kills in the early game in a similar way to Kat or Yi do, by rocking up to skirmishes when everyone is low and CDs are down.

 

[KRDsonic]

That makes sense. The mid I usually play with always tells me how he always has an easy time against Katarina, but the problem he has is that they always tend to roam bot for a double kill. I don't mind characters like that too much if you're playing on a team though at least, since all you have to do is not let those characters find a way to snowball. Yeah, they can be tough, but I know way too many people who complain about champions like Yi and Katarina.

 

[Dre89]

That makes sense. The mid I usually play with always tells me how he always has an easy time against Katarina, but the problem he has is that they always tend to roam bot for a double kill. I don't mind characters like that too much if you're playing on a team though at least, since all you have to do is not let those characters find a way to snowball. Yeah, they can be tough, but I know way too many people who complain about champions like Yi and Katarina.

I don't mind Katarina as much because she's easier to deal with than Fiora. The thing about those types of champions is that if you don't want them to get fed, you basically have to never have skirmishes ever. That's what they thrive on. So even in a 5s setting it can still be hard to deny them gold sometimes. It's easier to deny a mid that way than a top laner with TP. Even though mid can roam on more stuff, at least in 5s you can give your mid blue and jungle pressure to constantly push the wave into tower to deny them roams.

 

[Z'zgashi]

How does Heroes of the Storm compare to game like DOTA 2?

Hots > dota

 

[Shaya]

I haven't played enough dota/2
But new spins on the original warcraft characters in Dota I believe.

 

[Player-3]

^ what shaya said


they have some chars from dota games such as pudge who keeps his signature hook, but they changed basically everything else and instead of items you get upgrades to change your hero skills

its really cool and im having fun with it

 

[teluoborg]

Anyway both dota and hots are inferior to the true masterpiece of the moba genre : adventure time battle party.

Also slightly off topic but what do you guys think about the runeglaive jungle item ? The stats are meh (40 ap, 200 mana and 10% cdr) but the passive looks really good (AOE magical spellblade with an AP ratio and FREE mana regen on monsters) and could give more options to some champions.
Right now I'm thinking about Poppy, Alistar and Blitz (and of course Nida, Diana and Eve but f those champs), like any champ that has terrible mana costs and clears.

 

[Cheerilee]

Honestly, sounds like Maokai's dream item with the Cinderhulk enchant.

 

[KRDsonic]

Ugg, it's so frustrating queuing up with friends, only to have them not work together and ignore every call I make. I just did a ranked 3s game and our jungler constantly ignored everything I said. "Stop chasing Ryze and get the Amumu behind you since I'm following up" *He preceeds to ignore Amumu, follow Ryze, dies, then acts as if he has no idea how that happened*.

Or of course. "I'll clear the wave on top real quick." They both wait several seconds and then follow me top, leaving bot completely defenseless for the enemy to take tower and inhib.

I was Nasus, and it was frustrating having them follow me when I was trying to farm, because they would take wave after wave, denying me Q stacks.

 

[Soft Serve]

Ranked 3s are the ****. Everyone wants to play dumb comps, either all poke, 3 bruiser, or hard engage+one threat so you just ban the dumb gankers (lissanda, vi, reksai, or fiora/Jax are my bans) so you just pick safe flex picks first (ww is amazing, as well as any of those that should be instabans that slip through) then look for a hard cp for their comp with your last pick(s). Tanks that normally need a full team to kill are really strong, seigers/pokers are good for shoving the turrets and controlling the small map, assassins kinda blow because after the first few min it's nearly always grouping and roaming.

Just pick from like ryze/azir/sion/vi/sej/grag/voli/reksai/wu/liss/ziggs/kalista/diana/ww (and tons of other good champs in the meta) and you're fine as long as you don't get hard countered in team comps and outplayed.

 

[Cheerilee]

Ugg, it's so frustrating queuing up with friends, only to have them not work together and ignore every call I make. I just did a ranked 3s game and our jungler constantly ignored everything I said. "Stop chasing Ryze and get the Amumu behind you since I'm following up" *He preceeds to ignore Amumu, follow Ryze, dies, then acts as if he has no idea how that happened*.

 

[Dre89]

I don't see the point of Doran's items. Doran's ring is like the only one that provides a niche because of the superior waveclear, but aside from that flask is more efficient.

On ADs, longsword 3pot and crystal 2pot give more effective stars than sword and shield, they also don't set you 400-440 gold behind in your item builds.

Seriously what's the point of getting items that are meant to let you stay in lane longer when they set you items back anyway. It defeats the point of wanting to stay in lane to get gold. Even if you get a kill, all you've done is made up the gold you set yourself back, and that's only if you get FB.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dblade +3 lifesteal 70 health and 7 ad, couple with feast returning 3 health if you last hit a minion, you're essentially getting 10+ health every auto if you last hit.
Long sword 10 damage, 3 pots. only limited sustain and no lifesteal or health for level 1/2 fights which is more important than a measly 10 ad.
What that long sword builds into is just 8% lifesteal next, waaaaaaaaay too weak and not worth another 400 gold. Plus AD carries went to get to their IE before a BT or bork, so Dblade is just infinitely better in every situation. Flask or long potions never good.

 

[Dre89]

Dblade +3 lifesteal 70 health and 7 ad, couple with feast returning 3 health if you last hit a minion, you're essentially getting 10+ health every auto if you last hit.
Long sword 10 damage, 3 pots. only limited sustain and no lifesteal or health for level 1/2 fights which is more important than a measly 10 ad.
What that long sword builds into is just 8% lifesteal next, waaaaaaaaay too weak and not worth another 400 gold. Plus AD carries went to get to their IE before a BT or bork, so Dblade is just infinitely better in every situation. Flask or long potions never good.

Dblade is 3% life steal now. It got changed to % ages ago. So at 70 AD that's about 3 health returned, making it about 6 health returned with feast returned on CS.

Sword 3 pot is effectively 450 health plus 10 AD. So dblade needs to lifesteal 380 health to equal the effective health of sword3. That's over 100 autos on minions (the lifesteal will increase with your AD, but your autos on champs will be mitigated by armour). Feast isn't included here because you can just take feast on sword3 too.

So assuming someone doesn't get an early vamp, dblade would only be gold efficient if a sword3 starter needed to spend over 440 gold in pots to make up for the lack of lifesteal. That's about 12 pots, but remember that's 12 pots that you wouldn't get if you had Dblade. The ones you'd still get don't towards gold efficiency.

I dunno, I just don't think it's worth setting your build back 440 gold for that

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dblade is 3% life steal now.

That's what I said.
Dblade 3% lifesteal lol

Absolutely no AD carries start with 70 AD or below it when they buy an item, they start 75+ or even 80 at times. The reason any lane goes a D item is because they wanna stay in it as long as they can while farming up like a ***** and slowly save up their mana/health if any fights were to occur.
I don't understand your logic in your first silly post, items set you back?
Unless it's like building mana on an energy champ no item bought sets you back unless you just buy a bunch of bad stuff (can get BF sword but instead you get pickaxe boots and a 2nd dblade on marksman)
Again Dblade gives marksman the lifesteal they're not gonna be building until their 3rd or 4th core item.

Any character that goes long sword (riven zed fiora talon) are usually in lanes that're much shorter and have more pressure on them as well so they're more prone to die or back.
Same deal for if a laner goes ruby or sapphire crystal (fizz vlad for ruby, sapphire ryze maybe anivia) But when you realize the champs I mentioned that're not marksman, that's only like a very small portion of the 120+ champ cast that don't go the D item route.

All the D routes are good and it's MU dependent, since we're talking about marksman I think since you're never precise on anything.
Dblade is the one and only route that can give you enough sustain to stay in lane for 5+ minutes and safely go back for BF sword or more.


You're forgetting that Dblade also comes with 1 pot. By the time you auto 100 more times, you've had leveled up 3 times most likely early on at level 1 and past the 90ish AD range. Unless your entire thing was ADs as in "assassins" not "AD" for marksman, then yes long sword 3 pot is better.
Cause they're melee, they're not getting near the minions anytime soon to auto them if the enemy laner is irelia maokai or hecarim while mid lane is always some bs high damage range like azir or lb.

 

[Cheerilee]

Spoiler

Please remember that Riot employees will never ask for your password when assisting you.
[3:54] LiIithDVesta: my connection timed out my bad
[3:54] PantyRaider2011: that was terrible.. every lane lost
i did more dmg to champs than our jungle by double, and more than toplane.. and he countered tryn!
[3:55] LiIithDVesta: so you thought you outperformed everyone else?
[3:55] PantyRaider2011: no becasue i didnt have any assists or kills
i couldnt support you well kalista was hard to land my q on
[3:55] LiIithDVesta: did you think you were better then the people in the room
[3:55] PantyRaider2011: hells yes
[3:56] LiIithDVesta: man
[3:56] PantyRaider2011: i shoulda went toplane.. but mid was bad and jungle
[3:56] LiIithDVesta: have you ever heard about creep wave theory or how to freeze your lane
[3:56] PantyRaider2011: no
[3:56] LiIithDVesta: so you don't understand
when i told you to stop hitting minions
because i wanted to freeze the wave around our tower
[3:56] PantyRaider2011: no i dont like losing gold to turret or letting them have more creeps when we fight
[3:57] PantyRaider2011: get them low for yout adc to lst hit
[3:57] LiIithDVesta: that doesn't help me
[3:57] PantyRaider2011: allowing for better fight psotion
[3:57] LiIithDVesta: no it compromises your position
so once you put a spell on a minion wave
they lose health
if the enemy doesn't hit your wave
except to only last hit
[3:58] PantyRaider2011: if we have no minons... mroganan can fire her q and snare you while u try to farm
[3:58] LiIithDVesta: if you use E on their wave and the enemy just last hits their wave is weaker
[3:58] PantyRaider2011: they lose farm under turret and we get free hits on them?
exactly
[3:58] LiIithDVesta: where are we?
we're pushed up
into their river
and can be ganked
[3:59] PantyRaider2011: true
[3:59] LiIithDVesta: we're not zoned around our tower
we don't have wards
at early game
if we are stronger than them
and have kills up on them
you can play 'aggressive'
'poke' them under tower
but they have a Vi
a morgana and a kallista
[3:59] PantyRaider2011: if we clear waves faster we level faster and gold faster...
[3:59] LiIithDVesta: their dmg output is higher
if you clear waves faster
you don't get gold faster
the waves spawn
at the same time
by clearing their waves faster
you only force your waves to be pushed up more towards their tower
so you have a harder time ganking them
and you leave yourself more open to being ganked
[4:00] PantyRaider2011: yes... but that also alllows jungle to focus on counter jungling and helping mid/top
if botlane midlane and top;ane are all pushed.. he cant help all three.. someone is bound to need a gank mroe than someone else ashe counter kalista
[4:01] LiIithDVesta: yes, but you don't want to be the lane that feeds
or trades up on farm
what you're telling me is
we should push the wave and put ourselves at risk in hopes that the jungler
makes a move on other lanes
first of all
we don't know if the jungler is going to be decent
[4:01] PantyRaider2011: we outfarmed them.. 165 153... despie your afk
[4:01] LiIithDVesta: second of all
we outfarmed them
because
they went mid
and team fought
you were forcing me
to take CS at their tower
because you took CS for yourself
and you were pushing waves towards them
i asked you not to
because i didn't want to risk getting ganked so early on
[4:02] PantyRaider2011: i only took cs when u left. otherwise i hjust got them low for you to last hit
[4:02] LiIithDVesta: you don't realize
if you take CS when i leave
and they aren't there
they will get the wave towards them
so when i get there
i can't CS
because they are at their tower
and i won't CS at their tower when it's 2 v. 1
and i don't have any wards in the river
except when i hawkshot for vision
[4:02] PantyRaider2011: just need better champs.. when i adc i lvoe that.. i cs quite well and put hits on them...
[4:03] LiIithDVesta: im telling you that if you consider wave theory you can easily get out of B5
[4:03] PantyRaider2011: they cant farm if im harrasing them
[4:03] LiIithDVesta: it doesn't matter what champs you have
[4:03] PantyRaider2011: i coudlnt land my q
kalista is too mobile for a lux support.. shoudla went sona
and morganan is a really good support. hard to counter her period
[4:04] LiIithDVesta: lux isn't a good support
because her cooldowns are too high
[4:04] PantyRaider2011: snare+pool stop most tanky supports
[4:04] LiIithDVesta: for a double skill shot
[4:04] PantyRaider2011: i agree

 

[KRDsonic]

And thus as I said, everyone in Bronze is in there for a reason.

I know the main drawback for me in League is that I suck at trading. I'm horrible at it. I almost always lose trades, or if I somehow am winning a trade early game, I try to go too far with it and wind up getting myself killed. I actually only realized that recently from doing a lot of 1 v 1s against some of my friends. One of my friends kept suggesting for us to do ditto matchups, and so we played a lot of them. I lost every single one of them except for Nasus vs. Nasus, and Yi vvs. Yi, both of which are champions that I know well and that he never uses.

Unfortunately, I don't understand what it is that causes me to lose trades in even fights, so I don't know how to improve on that. The best I can do is just play safe and hope for my opponent to make mistakes, or play late-game champions who don't need to win lane to do well.

I'd imagine that I probably have other things I need to improve on in League as well, but I don't know what they are. I know my item builds aren't always optimal, and I usually don't know when to go all in unless I'm on a champion I play a lot. Actually, Rumble and Sona are the only two champions where I almost always know when it's a good time to go all in, and when I'll have just enough to burst someone down.

 

[Cheerilee]

And thus as I said, everyone in Bronze is in there for a reason. I know the main drawback for me in League is that I suck at trading. I'm horrible at it. I almost always lose trades, or if I somehow am winning a trade early game, I try to go too far with it and wind up getting myself killed. I actually only realized that recently from doing a lot of 1 v 1s against some of my friends. One of my friends kept suggesting for us to do ditto matchups, and so we played a lot of them. I lost every single one of them except for Nasus vs. Nasus, and Yi vvs. Yi, both of which are champions that I know well and that he never uses. Unfortunately, I don't understand what it is that causes me to lose trades in even fights, so I don't know how to improve on that. The best I can do is just play safe and hope for my opponent to make mistakes, or play late-game champions who don't need to win lane to do well. I'd imagine that I probably have other things I need to improve on in League as well, but I don't know what they are. I know my item builds aren't always optimal, and I usually don't know when to go all in unless I'm on a champion I play a lot. Actually, Rumble and Sona are the only two champions where I almost always know when it's a good time to go all in, and when I'll have just enough to burst someone down.

Trading comes down to comfort level and understanding all the options you have and all the options that the enemies have when it comes to a skirmish. It's important to understand what the limitations are on your champion because you will be playing with people who will be playing their champion for what honestly looks like the first time. The most jarring example being with the tank meta and everyone thinking "Sejuani is op" or "Garen is good" and then using their gap closers to move from the front line into the mid line or the back line because these are people who are used to playing Master Yi/Aatrox or some other squishy that refuses to be the first one to take damage in a team fight.

Getting comfortable with trading is also important for you to evaluate how comfortable other people are trading with their champion. It helps to categorize your teammates into styles like: HAM initiator, second-in, always in the back line, or first to run away. However, regardless you should never allow your category to be an absolute or be disappointed when they behave differently in a team fight that results in you dying because you tried to cooperate with them in a certain manner. Another thing that is important in bronze is how to handle your teammates and when to actually give them orders.

Bronze players will always take criticism too seriously and exaggerate the smallest short-comings from other people. The best way to make them listen to you is to stay quiet, play well, peel for them, and only issue orders when it's an important teamfight or giving them orders will actually affect the game in a 100% positive manner. Silver players are much better at taking criticism if it's to inform the top lane Malphite that TP'ing pre-6 into bottom for a gank isn't really helpful and they are losing farm/objectives. Meanwhile I've seen bronze players react to such criticism by immediately roaming all over the map as if to show that they don't have to listen to you and can do anything they want OR stay in your lane and steal your CS for two minutes thinking they can still win the game because they don't understand the importance of anything they are doing wrong. Hence when you lose why they actually blame you for losing the game.

 

[KRDsonic]

But I'm not in Bronze. I actually never bothered finishing my placement games, since I don't really have fun in solo queue. I went back to mainly just sticking to playing with my friends, or playing normals.

Though we are Bronze V in Ranked 5s, but I also can't ever get them all online at the same time for us to even play ranked 5s games. The main problem I see with us as a team is the rest of them are all used to playing Solo Queue, and are used to other people covering weaknesses they have, so they've never worked on them. Things like map awareness, how to actually teamfight, etc. We started talking about what our strengths and weaknesses are, and almost all of them listed teamfighting as their main weaknesses, while I consider it one of my strengths, though that's also partly because I play ARAMs a lot, which is nothing but teamfighting. Not to mention that ARAMs force you to learn how to teamfight as all types of champions and roles.

 

[Cheerilee]

But I'm not in Bronze. I actually never bothered finishing my placement games, since I don't really have fun in solo queue. I went back to mainly just sticking to playing with my friends, or playing normals. Though we are Bronze V in Ranked 5s, but I also can't ever get them all online at the same time for us to even play ranked 5s games. The main problem I see with us as a team is the rest of them are all used to playing Solo Queue, and are used to other people covering weaknesses they have, so they've never worked on them. Things like map awareness, how to actually teamfight, etc. We started talking about what our strengths and weaknesses are, and almost all of them listed teamfighting as their main weaknesses, while I consider it one of my strengths, though that's also partly because I play ARAMs a lot, which is nothing but teamfighting. Not to mention that ARAMs force you to learn how to teamfight as all types of champions and role.

Did you tell them that your strength is team fighting because you play a lot of ARAMs.

Try out a team composition like this: http://www.nerfplz.com/2015/03/top-team-comps-43-season-5-initiation.html

Or just always have Sivir in your comp or people with lots of mobility. It makes a big difference. If you have multiple initiators and people who play primary engage roles then it gives you more opportunities to chain attacks. If you have enough CC then eventually your entire team should be able to participate in the team fight.

 

[Cheerilee]

Found this test online, if you have time I'm curious how people score on it:

http://www.projectionpoint.com/index.php/rq_test/free_rq_test/description?cookies=true

 

[Dre89]

Arams aren't great teamfight practice because the teamcomps normally aren't realistic and it doesn't teach you proper positioning because you always have to fight head-on. It's just good for learning champions and practicing mechanics like baiting and dodging skillshots.

You can always do the classic Yasuo plus knock up combo. Even after being nerfed through IE Yasuo's laning is still obnoxiously strong and he scales well. He has no hard counters in mid lane. Zed is supposedly a counter but it's outplayable. I don't know if id say he's OP but his kit is overloaded and he's incredibly counterintuitive to lane against. Like everything you've learned about winning lane doesn't work against him lol.

 

[Cheerilee]

You know a champion is OP when Dre does not play them.

 

[FlatSoda]

hots is hella fun ive been playing it a bit


add me shaya wampuh#1353

>hots is hella fun
>never plays hots with me

i c u

 

[Player-3]

i ask u all the time but ur too busy with ur friends smfh

 

[Dre89]

You know a champion is OP when Dre does not play them.

I play Rumble and he's pretty dumb. Champion is so strong in lane and does so much free damage in teamfights for how brainless he is to play.

I've just never liked how much stuff Yasuo gets for free. He has two passives, one of them being a banshee's veil, which is a huge deal in lane. You can never initiate trades on him with abilities when he has it up. You have to auto him first to pop it, which often puts you in range for his attacks. I play melees so this actually a fairly big deal because I'm always at auto disadvantage when I trade with him. He has no resource and his ult is on a really low CD. I also don't like how he basically can't miss his ult. If he misses his q, he gets to try again in a a few seconds. Compare that to someone like Fizz whose projectile is part of the ult and this has an ult cd, despite being a slower projectile. Imagine if the fish was attached to his Q and the ult was just the shark (which would be guaranteed if you land the fish). Now shave 20 seconds off the ult CD. That's basically what Yasuo's ult is like.

I also just don't like how counter-intuitive playing him againt him is. Normally you're safer in your minions, but they simply let him ramp up his E, and give him infinite juking potential. Normally you harass people when they use an ability on the wave or miss it, but his damage CDs are so low that you never get an ability advantage damage-wise.

He's only really balanced by the fact that he takes skill to play and he has counterplay. I just find his kit obnoxious to deal with.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You dont play Poppy tho

 

[Dre89]

You dont play Poppy tho

She's too much of a binary statball for my liking. The only binary statball I still play is Rumble. I'm moving away from those types of champs though because mobile champs with outplay potential are just more fun and rewarding.

It can be pretty frustrating though playing someone like Zed when you can pick someone that's way more effective with much less skill required.

I played Fizz the other day and 1v3d the enemy backline with one spell rotation when everyone was full build. It wasn't even an outplay I just Zhonyad some spells and killed all three of them with my combo because they clumped lol. Fizz is one of the more mechanical champs but it's still pretty dumb that I can do that when it takes way more skill to kill just one person as Zed lol.

 

[teluoborg]

It takes more skill to play Cho Gath than Fizz.

 

[Dre89]

It takes more skill to play Cho Gath than Fizz.

I'm talking about AP Fizz mid, who has a really rough laning phase and then is reliant on his abilities to survive in teamfights whilst also using abilties to kill the carries.

Tank Cho is relatively easy to play because tanks in general have larger margins for error. AP Cho is a bit harder, but he still has ranged DPS and gets really tanky for an AP anyway. Fizz isn't super hard or anything but AP Fizz is definitely harder than Cho.