Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[john!]

Malzahar Q does more damage than an Orianna ultimate, while attached to the longest silence in the game, in aoe.

apples and oranges. orianna's ult is valued for the CC and the fact that it effectively extends the range of her W.

so there's rumors on the interwebs that youtube (google) is going to buy twitch. can't wait to use my mandatory google+ profile just to type in stream chat Kappa

 

[Dre89]

Malz's ult makes him so hard to 1v1 in lane though. Even when I had a good lead on him as Wukong I had to decoy the ult to all-in him.

Fiora is the most secret OP mid though. She's secret OP in general and she's easy to use because she's just stats, but she beats pretty every much ever squishy in the game at 6. Her passive lets her eat harass whilst farming, and her stats are so good that she doesn't need to waste that much mana because she doesn't need to do many trades to put them into kill range. If you die to her once or she gets a hydra the lane is impossible to recover because she's just keep diving you under tower with her ult, even if your at full health.

She's easily the best melee ADC in the game for me, even better than Jax, and she's the easiest to use. She's basically an assassin and an ADC. Q and R will kill a carry and they can't kite her because lolinvincibility. Then you just go back and kill everyone else with your insane AS steroid. All you have to do is play her like an assassin and just wait for/avoid the CC and you're good to go. That's pretty much why they're reworking her.

I don't get why she isn't played more. Even Doubelift said she's secret OP.

 

[Asdioh]

idk, Fiora has had a stigma of being a joke champion for a long time. I dunno if she's op, but she's definitely not bad. Jax is so ****ing overpowered though, there's no way you can convince me she's better. She does have the advantage of not being permabanned though. I've tried using her against Nidalee mid before to some success. I don't like Malz vs Nid because a good one will never be in range to ult, and you'll basically go oom trying to whittle her low enough to kill at 6. I've been trying Akali in that matchup instead, if the comp fits her, and she's pretty fun.

 

[Dre89]

I've always thought Jax is OP too, but the difference for me is that Jax is a lot more peelable and kiteable because his ult doesn't stick to them whilst being invincible. He's more of a carry/tank, whereas Fiora is more of a carry/assassin. Jax will normally have to build 2 tank items whereas Fiora can build 4-5 damage items because of her ult.

I think part of the reason why people don't rate her so much, apart from the fact that no one has stomped with her in the LCS, is that she's traditionally been considered a top. She can't trade too well against the meta tanks like Ren Syv and Trundle, but she beats every mid in the game, especially the melee ones like Zed/Kha/Fizz etc.

People also underrated her W. 15 AD at level 1 means she wins auto trades with anyone, especially because she' riposte one of her autos. The fact that she can punish ranged autos on reaction removes a lot of the advantage of being ranged against her too.

Aero uses her bot in ranked 5s paired with Raka. He just eats harass and (normally) is behind on CS because he's melee, then once he's 6 he has a tiamat he instantly wins lane everytime because lolFiora. We're not talking about scrubs either, we're versing teams with Diamonds and Challengers in them. It's the same thing in mid too.

She has no real mechanical requirement either, so she's the type of champion that you can just play for the first time and get 20 kills (which is what I basically did).

 

[Player-3]

fiora is similar to xin zhao in the sense that they only go in one direction


and that's why they seem op when you look at the kit, and then you get exhausted and you have no way to not die

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ez can arcane shift from Vi ult.
Ezreal is dumb.

 

[Dre89]

P3- To me Fiora is one of those champions that everyone says is bad because on paper she shouldn't get fed, but then stomps every game, even when I've seen her at higher elos.

Slush- I think Ez can shift mid blitz/thresh hook as well.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Blitz hook yes, but not thresh hook afaik.

 

[Shaya]

I find Nidalee vs Malz a pretty okay match up in lane. Good voidling usage to block spears, her need to farm in cougar farm under turret if your early game didn't get ****ed. Depending on jungle pressure you just throw **** at her under turret and she's forced to last hit in ranged form, which I go out of my way to count every single missed creep at a rate of 1 point, while forcing nid to back every time she's dumb enough to cougar to last hit at a score of 8.

(I love playing mid for that very reason... counting the amount of creeps you forced them to miss in the easiest lane to farm in, mwauauhauhua)

Also big whoops at skarner.

 

[john!]

Ez can arcane shift from Vi ult.
Ezreal is dumb.

idk if they patched it, but i'm pretty sure graves smoke bomb stopped my vi ult one time.

 

[Player-3]

P3- To me Fiora is one of those champions that everyone says is bad because on paper she shouldn't get fed, but then stomps every game, even when I've seen her at higher elos.

Slush- I think Ez can shift mid blitz/thresh hook as well.

ya fiora stomps in a solo q environment, same as xin

but neither of them see competitive play ever (except for when xin is blatantly op numbers-wise)

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand why though. Fiora just needs to avoid CC and she can stomp at any level because of how obnoxious her kit is. Assassins have the same issue but have always been viable (they're not as good nowadays, but that's not because of CC). That's what makes her so dumb, she just has to get onto her target and they're dead, and anyone that stands next to her as well. At least someone like Jax needs to be on the target for (somewhat) extended period of time, and can be peeled or kited in that period. The window of opportunity you have to stop Fiora is so much smaller, but not only does she assassinate the carry, but then does the DPS of a carry as well.

 

[Shaya]

In competitive situations, a character like Fiora can get shut down. It's relegated to a last pick only situation, imo (kinda like how kat can work, how I think Malzahar can work, etc etc [realistically nearly everyone can come in as a last pick in the right situations]). A solid team comp requires at least two engage[ment forcing] champions, Leona/Thresh aren't always available, the best tops are solid but require assistance (renekton, shyvana, mundo), Fiora sits somewhere between a lot of damage and a "selfish play pattern"; she's a character who can go in and deal a lot of damage with relative ease, but it doesn't "add" to anything other characters can do, or will need to do, she's just damage. Jax requires focus, deals damage the longer he stays in fights (ramping up, Fiora kinda has this with her health regen + movement speed, but not really), negates focus (dodge) and has cc and a longer ranged blink.

If she can get shut down, and the only thing she offers is damage, means that if she isn't well farmed she's doing virtually nothing. If she's lost lane early, she's likely against a character she'll always lose against throughout the game (not always true), unlike Jax who has significant power spikes (tl;dr free-er stats than fiora) and is really only shut down indefinitely by MAYBE Malphite/Lee.

I agree she's broken right now, ever since they remade Yi (into what I think is a ****tier character), she's been an underappreciated super deeps and the continual nerfs to other AD casters when she has competitive burst, puts her into the forefront of "power level", but still has a restrictive kit.
Imagine if the lee change with 100% free attack speed actually was a thing, lol. Lol Fiora.

 

[Dre89]

You could say the same thing about Jax, but he's picked/banned every game now. Shutting down champs like that is hard in practice because they just need to clean up a skirmish in the jungle and then they're no longer 'shut down'.

What separates Fiora from other melee carries is that she's an assassin and carry in one. Jax is actually easier to shut down or at least contain because he can be peeled. Fiora engages like an assassin, takes a carry out like an assassin, then proceeds to do the damage that a Jax would after the carry is dead. The reason why she can do this is because the invincibility on her ult makes her unpeelable once she gets into range of the carry.

She has no utility if she falls behind, but she can still build a cleaver (which is a core item on her anyway) and have AoE armour shred, plus she's still a good splitpusher. And she can always try the 'turtle til lategame' thing.

I'd be ok with her if her ult was single target, and didnt have a huge AS steroid, because then she'd just be an assassin. Or if her ult didn't give her invincibility, because then she'd just be a carry. What I hate is that she's both, and the fact that she's an assassin makes her a better carry, because once the enemy carry is dead she's free to pump out the deeps.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fiora is OP in the sense that she has a very strong, unstoppable ultimate that generally wins team fights (unless you ult a tank).

Her late game is absurd (easily one of the strongest in the game, if not the strongest teamfight-wise) considering her strong early and mid game.

But like everyone else has said, she's very easy kill or shut down which is why I take her bot lane with @ swordsaint . Whenever I take her top or mid I ALWAYS get camped. Always, because the enemy jungler ISN'T ********.

Usually I bounce back but that's attributed to my own playstyle rather than the champion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Personally I think Malz only loses to a fringe amount of champs, if at all.

He is bogus in lane and an absolute annoyance, if he gets any way to make his mana grow you lost the lane. I think he is secretly OP right now personally. Unless I am Karma mid this guy is a pain in the ass and for most mid laners I see why he would stomp them.

 

[Shaya]

Personally I think Malz only loses to a fringe amount of champs, if at all.

He is bogus in lane and an absolute annoyance, if he gets any way to make his mana grow you lost the lane. I think he is secretly OP right now personally. Unless I am Karma mid this guy is a pain in the *** and for most mid laners I see why he would stomp them.

Y'know what the world needs?
A Korean team going Galio. And stomping.

 

[swordsaint]

As strong as I think Fiora/her kit is, she requires a team built around her to be truly successful on a competitive level. You can't attribute Fiora success in solo queue to being a competitively strong pick, because the coordination just isn't there, and the coordination isn't there even in the ranked 5's we've played against diamonds/challengers.

It's been stated already, but she goes one way. In. It's the same as a Talon. Talon does an OBSCENE amount of damage but he generally goes in, and doesn't come out until everyone explodes. That style of champion just isn't successful/useful when behind, and isn't picked for those reasons. Disengage is as important as engage.

The thing about Fiora is that her viability isn't determined primarily by her kit, her kit is very, very strong. It's determined by, in part, how the meta has been in recent times (tanks who she won't kill, and she needs kills), summoner spells (who doesn't love being exhausted?), and siege potential. Her dive is very strong, but the defensive meta we're in completely nullifies that on a competitive level, and sieging a turret is far more valuable that diving for kills. She offers nothing. What is a Fiora going to do in a siege against a Nidalee or Ziggs? Get poked down and die? Go in and get exhausted, die and maybe blow a few enemy summoner heals? It's entirely likely the enemy team picks a safe, scaling mid lane and runs double exhaust, similar to a yasuo pick.

Additionally she's also incredibly easy to gank.

However, I actually think she fits the 'meta' right now somewhat. Carry top lanes and 4 v 0 lane pushes. Not many champions are going to out push a level 2 Fiora with W and E leveled first. And all the extra early gold certainly makes her scary, and if she gets the lane freezing on her side of the map, her level and gold advantage certainly make her problematic.

That said, I think she should be a jungler.

 

[Dre89]

Thing is SwordSaint everything you said applies to Jax as well, and look at how popular he is now. I agree that she's probably better suited to soloq because she thrives of unplanned fights, but any meta where are skirmishes in the jungle and fights for objectives gives her a chance to get rolling.

 

[Shaya]

Big damages.

Kog'Maw rocking.
Probably world record damages.

Nidalee seems like such a **** champion when you smack her up like a ***** at further range than her spear can hit. AND LIKE FOUR TIMES A SECOND.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You could say the same thing about Jax

Thing is SwordSaint everything you said applies to Jax as well

I don't understand, everyone is giving you valid reasons on why Jax is better and used in competitive compared to Fiora and you still argue.

Jax is mixed damage and can press R to get tanky while just having a triforce. Fiora is AD only and a randuins is all that's needed to stop fiora in her tracks. Hell maybe a sunfire renekton/shyv.
Jax gains more stats in every stat outside of MR when he levels, when it comes to sieging Jax can just press E and be unable for people to target him while he's also giving a threat of possibly jumping on anybody and stunning them, while ALSO attacking faster as that satisfying orgasmic sound smacks the turret. If there's a threat to Jax like CC or something he can jump on his teammates/minions/a ward. Fiora can only jump onto enemy minions/champions.

Fiora's ult can aim for the AD sure, but if anybody gets near the person that's ulted you start moving onto other targets which mitigates the maximum damage you could be doing to the carry.
Exhaust, which p3 pointed out, makes Fiora nonexistent. Jax at least still has a stun that does damage btw, and even if AS went from 2.5 to 0.5 (seriously, remove this summoner spell lolol) he can just press W to help him get a quick auto off that's most likely faster than his AS animation.

Oh fun fact, if Jax just presses E he can dodge most or prolly all of Fiora's ult. So if fiora was to see competitive play, outside of obviously camping the poor immobile ***** or choose renekton to **** her, a Jax pick against her would just make her laning phase hell since E is all jax needs to destroy her.

 

[Dre89]

The reasons given were that she can be shut down and she's useless if she falls behind. Funnily enough, those were the exact same things people here were telling me 1-2 months ago about Jax before he became popular again. If you look back 10-20 pages you can probably see the posts lol. I guess I dont see how in just over a month, the meta has changed so much that Jax has gone from being unviable due to being easily shut down and not contributing much if he falls behind, to being picked/banned every game, whilst Fiora is still unviable due to ease of shutting down.

Also, it appears Ez was given a ton of priority on his moves. If Wukong ults Ez and knocks him up whilst he's casting his ult it won't be interrupted and he'll still fire the projectile.

 

[Shaya]

Ezreal's ult has a cast time but cannot be interrupted. Ditto to his E. Most new moves in the game **** Ezreal over for being coded this way though :\ (Thresh Q, Vi ult)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jax never really fell out of flavor, just when S3 ended and Jax being chosen to counter shen stopped happening cause Shen ult bug that hasn't been fixed for 2 or so seasons, then people trying out the cancer three during preseason Mundo shyv and renekton, they enjoyed that better.

Dunno if entirely true but it took Zionspartan to wreck face in some matches in the LCS with jax for people to remember "oh yeah! jax exists and does well against trundle renek etc." and he was chosen again. Simple as that. People forgot about him then remembered once they saw his power again.

 

[Asdioh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uak19ra0OWQ tl;dr this has always been relevant
even if their singing sucks

 

[Sinister Slush]

Man... S2 really was the best.

 

[swordsaint]

Jax fell out of favour because his early game was bad, and games were ending before he could ramp up. In season 4 though, games are longer and harder to close out because snowballing has been reduced, and there are lots of popular waveclear champions to turtle out and let Jax scale. Additionally, the 4-0 tower pushes allow Jax to bypass early laning, get some extra gold, and ramp up faster than before, as well as potentially get a good freeze on the lane deep in his own side of the map to free farm over the enemy. The above reasons are actually why RENEKTON, RENEKTON OF ALL CHAMPIONS has fallen out of favour slightly competitively. You pick something that outscales him, 4 v 0 tower push, and you've potentially skipped his early lane bully presence.

It isn't just because ZionSpartan reminded everyone. Everyone was still aware of Jax, there were just particular things in the Meta that denied him from being the most optimal choice. The trinket changes were easily one of the biggest contributing factors. When they pushed back the trinket timers and forced teams to do late invades and lane swap, they brought Jax back.

Dre, the reason Jax is better than Fiora is because he ISN'T easily gankable unless he commits to a trade with his Leap Strike, and even then he might get away because its on a freaking 5 second cooldown or something ridiculous. Focusing Jax is hard. You focus Jax and he Counter Strikes. Where Fiora gets focused and dies, Jax presses R and E and become an unkillable tank that CC's your entire team while simultaneously murdering everyone. Fiora is a squishy melee carry that gets CC'd and dies. Jax is a tanky carry that can kill carries just as fast as Fiora while being tanky and bringing CC. He scales way harder than her.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah those trinket changes helped Jax, I remember that much.
Renekton I still see often, but I do see Ryze more than trundle now. While Jax took Mundo's place.

 

[swordsaint]

Trundle is almost exclusively reserved as a Shyvana counterpick from what I can tell.

And yeah, Renekton will never go away. In standard lanes he will always dominate, but in a meta where stalling and going for late game is actually viable for a change, you'll see less of him. I watch a lot of professional play, and Renekton is definitely falling out of favour somewhat. He's having games where he isn't picked/banned and that's absolutely crazy.

On the topic of scaling up though, even Kog'maw is getting picked because of the meta, but we'll have to wait and see what pops up in the new season. I expect Braum to be picked/banned every game. Lots of professional bot lanes think he's broken beyond belief.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I watch a lot of esports too. Prolly too much outside of OGN sometimes cause sleep schedule random (except past 9 days has been absolutely ****ed)
I haven't seen koggles THAT much, maybe 3 or so times but he lost most, if not all, of them. One game I think whoever used him in korea rushed TF.

For right now I'm trying to find out why NiP had a 1 game lead before gamers2 even played against them.

 

[swordsaint]

I'm not watching that TSM invitation (in part because I despise TSM) but could it be because NiP beat Gamers 2 in Winners before the GF match?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm only watching that TSM invitation thing cause Alex is on NiP now. Alex and part of Diamond made gambit, mostly Alex. So losing Alex made me not care about Gambit much anymore sadly.
Not sure tbh, they never explained it.

 

[swordsaint]

I never understood how Gambit was a top team in EU considering they have Edward and Genja on it. Probably one of my least favourite teams across both EU and NA. Nothing can ever be disliked more than TSM/XDG though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

They were a top team when they had quite honestly no other contested teams outside of EG Sk kinda and Fnatic always. Lemondogs last year for S3 was honestly the Luckerdogs from matches I watched em play. (and the fact both the top 2 teams had one role not fillled)

Dunno y the hate to xdg tho. Vulcun use to be a pretty ok team outside of Zuna. Zuna was always bad not just as a player but personality too.
Infact I see more Clown 9 hate over xdg, tho that's because I hang out in /vg/ most of the time and we all know xdg is an irrelevant ****ter team already. Even moreso with 5 literal whos taking the roster of xdg Virtus or whatever they're calling themselves now.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Genja is easily my favorite person.

Scoot, we had an ap garen last night after your ragequit <3

 

[Dre89]

I don't see how anyone could hate C9 though, they're all nice people and really good players. I didn't mind XDG but I didn't like Zuna and thought Nintendude was a crap jungler.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's hard to hate C9 cause they're all boring and bland as ****.

Hai tries for some personality by being bisexual as a joke I guess or something.
Sneaky is the token lesbian while wanting to be more noticed in the community since hardly anybody cared about him back in S3 cause >utility AD was best in korea copy dat mane.

Hell to scope out attention, when he had #1 in challenger for like 6 or so days he had it as his stream title fer awhile since wildturtle stopped playing on his main that was #1 for 10 days I think and the rules kicked him off and literally EVERYBODY, even reddit and I think in his little interview in chasing the cup, they had a need to point out he was first despite wildturtle doing that for half a year I think in S3 and having 3 accounts in the top 50 challenger.

Meteos and Lemon are just kinda there. A blonde and a school teacher.
Balls prolly has the most personality of the 5 and again even he's forgettable.

So guess in a sense hate them for just being a team that's kinda there, existing, and winning. Oh C9 beat TSM again, cool I guess.
For me at least, I'm more ecstatic of reddit threads making excuses for TSM or the /vg/ threads and their >TURD **** MANURE
Not just spouting unnecessary hate or whatever either, watching streams is bout all I do and only three of C9 streams occasionally and all three are boring. Which're meteos hai and sneaky.

Spoiler

 

[Zano]

p3 confirmed to be involved

 

[john!]

"soraka -> goat, and goats make cheese"

absolutely flawless logic.

 

[Player-3]

fiora is worse than jax for many reasons



fioras ult is on a 300 minute cooldown for no reason and without it shes useless and has nothing ot help her survive except her (subpar) base stats

jax has the 3rd highest base hp in the game and his ult gives him infinite defensive stats on a tenth of the cd fioras is