Hmm, I swear I felt like her Q's range was screwing me over so much recently. Irelia/Xins at 650 aren't they?
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Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!
- Thread starter JTB
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Same range as Xin's =P
Irelia's is 50 units higher.
I think her Q and R are pretty silly if you don't have a tank. But how often does that really happen? (The answer is never)
Irelia's is 50 units higher.
I think her Q and R are pretty silly if you don't have a tank. But how often does that really happen? (The answer is never)
It's because they have the best stats in the game and are the least dependent on player mechanics. They also normally have obnoxious skill mechanics, like invincibility or a revive or something.
They snowball way harder on kills than most other classes. On an AP items normally just make your spells stronger, and your waveclear better. On an AD not only do your spells get stronger, so do your auto trades, tower pushing, last hitting and sustain (lifesteal). You just get so much more for doing the same thing on an AD, and it's easier to do because they're just good stats and steroids. I mained APs ever since I played, but I can play Fiora or Jax once and already carry games harder because they're just so much easier to use and get much so much more reward out of everything.
I really tried to put into words my reaction to your last post Dre (and this one: http://smashboards.com/threads/leag...-tomorrow-2-25.283410/page-1514#post-16458219)... I've spent hours now meandering about it...
Writing things... putting effort into explaining ... ughh just ughhh...
ughh. even doubly so as I look at your avatar. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Let me just put it this way.
Melees are often given multiple spells which are "point and click" and various actives. Why are they given things like this when characters with ranged have to... land skill shots, or chain combos, or really only get going with several items under their belts. Because the weakness of being melee is so crippling and so hard to work around that those characters are compensated as such. The truest struggle of all comes from the fact you need to use your abilities significantly smarter with much higher risk (.... **** it. i'm done.
Writing things... putting effort into explaining ... ughh just ughhh...
ughh. even doubly so as I look at your avatar. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Let me just put it this way.
Melees are often given multiple spells which are "point and click" and various actives. Why are they given things like this when characters with ranged have to... land skill shots, or chain combos, or really only get going with several items under their belts. Because the weakness of being melee is so crippling and so hard to work around that those characters are compensated as such. The truest struggle of all comes from the fact you need to use your abilities significantly smarter with much higher risk (.... **** it. i'm done.
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I think they should have that kind of utility to be supports. Then they can stand out while being fun for people to play.
I DOTA supports have strong base damage with some utility, and then build more utility.
If not, then what do you do to make supports stand out?
I think supports should have great utility, and have abilities when used at the right moments are critical to winning games. Thresh' hook is able to lock down a target for an extended period and allows Thresh to get in. Thresh's lantern is an aoe shield with the single most daunting power creep ability added to this game in a very long time, why does it give an aoe shield when the sheer utility of that spell is beyond ridiculous already without it? Like how loaded does an ability need to be? The counter play to it is a joke (the speed at which you travel after right clickng it is not disrupted by anybody reliably). His ult punishes you trying to leave a particularly small area with a noticeable amount of damage and a significant slow, it's utility and space control is frustrating; it protects, it crowd controls and its counterplay involves blinks (great, more emphasis on mobility characters for viability) or getting ****ED OVER. Fantastic. Free defensive stats to boost too, that aren't a choice between protecting yourself or another player on your team (i.e. EVERY true SUPPORT IN THE GAME FOLLOWS THIS BAR THRESH).
Thresh's strength, as in, the amount of individual things he can do, is far beyond what other supports have, who have been able to feel just as good and still be heavily important to games (which is obvious as supports have been critical to competitive play since mid season 1). Are you trying to say every support that isn't on Thresh's level can't feel good/awesome? Does every support need to be as good as Thresh? I think that would make the game even more stupid than it currently is.
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I think thresh should be nerfed.
But I still his kind of kit is what should be like.
Him, lulu, etc.
Supports need to be play makers since Riot is not going to give them redic base damage early.
Players want to feel like they are being impactful, something that has been a problem in the past.
I think Thresh is OP right now, but his kind of kit is what people should aim for. Janna needs number tuning, then she can be the same.
Soraka needs a rework and people need to drop the white Mage healer dream unless they can add more gameplay to it.
Sona while I love her, needs to not be so derpy in play and make her power more dynamic.
Leona is right where she should be as a support tank.
Play wise some just suffer from not feeling satisfying. Thresh while I think needs nerfs, feels a lot more satisfying than a lot of other supports.
In theory melees' superior stats and easier mechanics should be balanced by the fact that they're melee. The problem is they're not in practice because most melee ADs have mechanics to negate the weakness of being melee. The two inherent weaknesses of being melee are getting into close range to deal damage, and the fact that you are vulnerable to more damage due to having to be in close range. Gap closers and CC immunity negate the former problem, and mechanics such as invincibility and revives negate the latter problem.
That's the issue, they get superior stats in exchange for the weakness of being melee, but then have that melee weakness largely negated by champion mechanics.
The reason why I'm using Fiora at the moment until I find a true assassin that I like is because her kit negates all those weakness. She has a double gap closer plus a movement speed boost. When she gets there, her ult sticks to the target and cannot be escaped by flashes or dashes, and also protects her from potential damage. Her ult is why I use her now over Jax and Wukong, because they don't stick to targets as well and have inferior protection from damage.
Edit- I think Thresh is the perfect model of a support. He's pure utility that is highly mechanical. He's balanced in that the fact that he is probably the highest potential support, but also has the highest mechanical skill ceiling.
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Niko45
Smash Master
If you stop QQing about melee ADCs for one second, take a step back and consider this: Tryndamere is harder to play competitively in ranked games than any champion you play. I guarantee that. Take Trynd into your ranked games and enjoy feeding miserably. Stop thinking of skill in terms of landing "skill" shots and think of it in terms of not feeding, calculating DPS really really precisely, and making difficult decisions regarding objectives.
Melee ADCs don't need to win lane? WHAT. They need to win lane hard... No counterplay to Fiora ult? Thornmail? Up until recently, if you wanted to not feed a melee adc, you just started a doran shield (thank you based nerf). Then you built tabi. Then you built randuins. Then you built thornmail. That's like a 6.5k build that completely shuts down a 10K+ melee ADC build. Like, you think you build a Last Whisperer and you're good to go against that build? Think again. You never outscale pure tank builds with melee adcs in season 4. Rand/Thorn too strong. So yea, if you are behind on melee adcs you are BONED because you need to be AHEAD. All you can do is afk split push or try to roam and team fight away from the brick wall tank stopping your split. However, if you try to play squishy DPS top lanes against melee ADCs like Riven, Lee Sin or Khazix, there's a strong possibility that you will find yourself in deep deep trouble. So don't do that.
Fiora is good, not OP. Crazy vulnerable to ganks. Has some unplayable matchups (JAX). She does do better in teamfights than most melee ADCs tho, so there is a better chance that if she falls behind she can group and still get back in the game.
IMO, tanks are the lowest skill champs in the game, and definitely the champs I would least recommend playing for players trying to get better. You basically automatically counter your lane opponent with your build and it doesn't matter how derpy you play in lane you just win trades for free. Your usefulness is capped at a certain point, but it's automatic to not be useless. It's a great recipe for being a mediocre player.
Melee ADCs don't need to win lane? WHAT. They need to win lane hard... No counterplay to Fiora ult? Thornmail? Up until recently, if you wanted to not feed a melee adc, you just started a doran shield (thank you based nerf). Then you built tabi. Then you built randuins. Then you built thornmail. That's like a 6.5k build that completely shuts down a 10K+ melee ADC build. Like, you think you build a Last Whisperer and you're good to go against that build? Think again. You never outscale pure tank builds with melee adcs in season 4. Rand/Thorn too strong. So yea, if you are behind on melee adcs you are BONED because you need to be AHEAD. All you can do is afk split push or try to roam and team fight away from the brick wall tank stopping your split. However, if you try to play squishy DPS top lanes against melee ADCs like Riven, Lee Sin or Khazix, there's a strong possibility that you will find yourself in deep deep trouble. So don't do that.
Fiora is good, not OP. Crazy vulnerable to ganks. Has some unplayable matchups (JAX). She does do better in teamfights than most melee ADCs tho, so there is a better chance that if she falls behind she can group and still get back in the game.
IMO, tanks are the lowest skill champs in the game, and definitely the champs I would least recommend playing for players trying to get better. You basically automatically counter your lane opponent with your build and it doesn't matter how derpy you play in lane you just win trades for free. Your usefulness is capped at a certain point, but it's automatic to not be useless. It's a great recipe for being a mediocre player.
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I honestly have not read any of these wall of texts the past 2 or 3 pages.
Have we moved on to a more interesting topic yet or are we still arguing with a bronze 5 while trying to pound logic into somebody who has the debater icon.
Have we moved on to a more interesting topic yet or are we still arguing with a bronze 5 while trying to pound logic into somebody who has the debater icon.
Zano
Smash Master
excuse me, he's bronze 4 you jerk
Bronze 4 or 5, doesn't matter still the same. He'll drop soon enough and it'll be the teams fault for losing to AP riven.
pls be nice to dre
pls don't ruin this thread enforcing your banner
Zano
Smash Master
aren't you like the meanest person to him
ok /tears
yes but im his friend so it's ok /moretears&justification
I got demoted to b5 again off a couple of afks (like 3 in 5 games). Also please don't pull the b5 card, by that logic no one should listen to anyone here because there will always be better players to listen to.
I'm not saying melees are freelo. If your team feeds and you don't get a million kills you won't carry the game. I also don't get why people are talking about managing dps when you can just dive the carry and blow them up.
Tanks have the largest margin for error but some of them have quite high skill ceilings. They can do quote complicated stuff like using their CC to peel a diver mid gap closer, saving their carry whilst also wasting the diver's cd.
I'm not saying melees are freelo. If your team feeds and you don't get a million kills you won't carry the game. I also don't get why people are talking about managing dps when you can just dive the carry and blow them up.
Tanks have the largest margin for error but some of them have quite high skill ceilings. They can do quote complicated stuff like using their CC to peel a diver mid gap closer, saving their carry whilst also wasting the diver's cd.
That doesn't mean what higher level people are saying is 100% right either in that case.
Even what pros say is bull**** sometimes.
yeah, imagine if people listened to m2k's opinion of smash tier lists
lol.
Edit: fox would be high tier in brawl, oh god the horror
lol.
Edit: fox would be high tier in brawl, oh god the horror
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I agree, like I wouldn't listen to what Dyrus says about anything, but I would listen to someone like Balls.
On another note, who is the best AD assassin right now. Is it Khazix? I'm looking for an assassin that has huge burst and a gapcloser. Preferably AD so I have better tower damage and so that I can get a hydra. I want someone who can play top mid and jungle, so I was thinking of Kha or Zed.
john!
Smash Hero
guys can we go back to talking about how broken lee sin is
fun fact: more people have accounts named after lee sin and zed than named after every other hero combined
p.s. is your computer working yet asdioh?
fun fact: more people have accounts named after lee sin and zed than named after every other hero combined
p.s. is your computer working yet asdioh?
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didn't they gut kha'zix really hard?
Also Zed too technical
i have an idea, play talon instead (is basically male fiora)
Also Zed too technical
i have an idea, play talon instead (is basically male fiora)
I wouldn't call it gutting, all they did was take 2% off of Kha'zix Q, E lost a lot of damage though I'll give you that, and R got buffed with Unit collision gone and 2 seconds now when evolved.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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So if pros can be wrong, why even bring up his rank?
Because you want to rub it in his face.
I'm ok with how Shaya approached this, not this way.
Yo guys. Mr Crazy here but...
WHY DONT PEOPLE BUILD HYDRA ON AKALI?
DON'T YOU SEE THE SYNERGY?
WHY DONT PEOPLE BUILD HYDRA ON AKALI?
DON'T YOU SEE THE SYNERGY?
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Let's be fair ryu.
Bronze people are delusional and do not listen to others. Sometimes with silver too though.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/200yog/conversation_with_a_bronze_4_player/
>me linking reddit again
****, why do the people I hang out with go here so much but always link decent topics from time to time.
Also, where am I rubbing anything in anyones face lol. ur weird mang
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Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Because I dont play Akali.
Cuz I'd want the 3300 + 100 gold for hextech or lich bane instead.
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Way to generalise. Pretty much anything you learn in this game you learn because you've listened to someone. I find it interesting how so many people criticise the ranking system saying that it's unfair, yet will play the rank card when they have a higher rank than someone.
I'll probably be a bronze4lyfer though. I win lane most games but I'm just not good enough to snowball my advantage and carry losing lanes and afks. I also don't know how to deal with getting camped by the jungler when I get no jungle help in return (you always get camped when you're the only winning lane)
How do you guys carry games like that? I know it's doable, because I assume that people who got out of Bronze had to do it in like 80% of their games like I do. I just try to push my wave to tower then roam when I have my ulti. I aso try to ward the enemy jungle (and my own lane as well oviously) but I'm still not good enough to carry. Any help would be much appreciated.
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The problem I find is that they demolish the ceilings of capabilities with new champs. Then they take forever to nerf them, and it becomes almost impossible to do so without making them completely useless, but oh wait, once the nerf cycle goes through its usual flow, they come back into the forefront due to how loaded their kits still are. Thresh definitely has too many things on his kit that he doesn't need to feel good or be impactful, and it annoys me that they nerf things that aren't the root of the problem (his auto attack range...) rather than the things that flat out make him the best thing since sliced bread.
His Q's ability to crowd control is significantly better and longer lasting than Blitz' and Amumu's Qs. Stunned, Snared, Pulled into the team. Oh and he can choose to jump in on you too. How is that comparable to other character's abilities? The single target lock down of the ability is at least twice as long as its similar counterparts without the counter play of the other two.
His W has no counter play when the speed at which you travel at after activating it is faster than 90% of the blinks in this game. It also has an aoe shield. Why? Why? Why? Why? I don't get it.
Thresh feels satisfying because you basically cannot make a mistake with him or misplay something so poorly with him that it costs you the game if you're competent with him. It always feels good to win.. Hook the tank into your team as blitz? gg. Using your heal as Soraka at the right time to get the most out of its burst armor? **** that up and you've used a majority of your utility. Sona's entire team fight presence is her ultimate with everything on the line if you don't get something critical with it (the mobility creep in this game is ridiculous). Janna has kite but no where near the zone control of Thresh does, she also has to cap out CDR while Thresh can build just like another tank. Janna's kit hasn't been amazing since no one viable has channels anymore, no one viable has their initiations/etc so destroyed by a well timed tornado or ultimate... Vi, Leona and Thresh be ****ING DAMNED.
Soraka was, at a point, the example of a late game support which should've actually been looking strong with season's 4 changes. If she wasn't so overtly outshined in utility and scaling by the likes of Thresh. Soraka/Janna both suffer this "we're mediocre in lane, but we're meant to be good in team fights/late" but my goodness look at the power curves of thresh/annie/leona in comparison (god tier at nearly every stage of the game). Supports right now of the past don't feel "bad" because of their kits, they feel bad because the other kits in the game are just so much more forgiving and come with just SO MUCH MORE.
Right. Which is fairly obvious. But in terms of a single item slot effectiveness? It screams kinda huge for me. 13% spell vamp, one of the highest AD values in a single item scaling with your magic damage passive. Lich Bane is an interesting comparison because they both have similar effects but different scaling. Considering the supposed incoming lich bane nerfs too.
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Shaya- You're ignoring the fact that Thresh's Q has a significant wind-up and doesn't pull the enemy into a team, which in most cases is better than what Thresh's Q does. Thresh's Q is balanced around his ulti, as an individual move it's inferior to most other hooks. Thresh's Q on Blitz would be pretty bad IMO.
I think ur exaggerating how easy Thresh is to play properly. All of his moves have pretty high skill ceilings except maybe his ult. I think CC in general has a much higher skill ceiling than people realise, because most people think that landing CC on squishies is all there is to using CC.
I think ur exaggerating how easy Thresh is to play properly. All of his moves have pretty high skill ceilings except maybe his ult. I think CC in general has a much higher skill ceiling than people realise, because most people think that landing CC on squishies is all there is to using CC.
I know the superficial reasons for it, obviously. And the lack of AP, life steal (although she can get stuff out of it) and aoe isn't maximum synergy with her kit.
$3300 item that is $3768 worth of stats. Throw in $360 worth of spell vamp. Throw in what would end up being close to a 50% increase in her Final AD values (hard to quantify with her passive on the AP end of it; but 50% extra magic damage per AA is nothing to scoff at). An extra 100% of her AD as burst (10 second cd though). The already obnoxious levels of sustain she can have in a fight becoming even more so (by a significant amount considering the other items in her build). Her 3 second CD E will be doing an extra 45 damage. I'm pointing this out purely because I don't even think people have tried it.
If you aren't AAing with her, there would be no reason to buy it. But otherwise, most assassins are single target in general (e.g. Lee Sin, Shaco). And as an assassin she has more to gain from auto attacks than say, Zed (who doesn't build it very often).
~
No Dre. No. I'm not ignoring those facts at all. If you think half a second is a significant wind up.. just...u ghhhhhhghh
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If you want more damage with your Autos then just go Lich bane on her and spam R on people along with the E you want to use for AOE with Hydra.
Yeah, Lich Bane plus the general low CD's she ends up having probably equates to more damage.
I'd have to sit down and effort through actual DPS calculations (which is harder for me to do these days as I lost all my original spreadsheet calculators for this stuff). I just wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a competent item on her.
I'd have to sit down and effort through actual DPS calculations (which is harder for me to do these days as I lost all my original spreadsheet calculators for this stuff). I just wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a competent item on her.
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shaco is not an assassin, he's a split pusher and if you go assassin you do not build hydra
lee sin gets hydra to split push (theres a correlation there)
everything you said is great and all but literally every other item that costs 3300+ does the same thing but better
I enjoy bork over hydra on Shaco to assassinate early, I'll bother with hydra if the game goes on long enough cause by then I'd already have shiv which is kinda helping with my splitpush.
New topic: build ghostblade on Lucian
New topic: build ghostblade on Lucian
Yeah, I don't build hydra/tiamat on shaco very often. The utility of having an extra ranged slow (so you don't need to use E active straight away) significantly outweighs the damage/farming bonuses.
My comment on that though was more so "most assassins are single target" not "they should build hydra" :{
Also wow, I must be really good
Code:
[2:23] ********: hi
man
[2:23] Shaya: who are you?
hello
[2:23] ********: i need a bit of help can u play 1 or 2 games in rank for me i scared tht i might get demoted
please
i a radom
[2:23] Shaya: no
lol
[2:23] ********: i gift u
pleaseSo basically, spam broken champions in solo queue and suddenly lucrative business opportunities for owning all skins for all champions come along.
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I've been going Ghostblade on Lucian for a long time now.
It's basically a question of is Ghostblade better than Triforce, as there's no other item that really makes sense to replace Ghostblade with.
They both synergize well with Lucian's kit as a mixed marksmen/AD caster, but I like that Ghostblade is significantly cheaper and the huge power you get from Brutalizer into Bloodthirster. Probably finish up Ghostblade after Bloodthirster ideally, but sometimes you need a Negatron, or really need Last Whisper ASAP or w/e.
It's basically a question of is Ghostblade better than Triforce, as there's no other item that really makes sense to replace Ghostblade with.
They both synergize well with Lucian's kit as a mixed marksmen/AD caster, but I like that Ghostblade is significantly cheaper and the huge power you get from Brutalizer into Bloodthirster. Probably finish up Ghostblade after Bloodthirster ideally, but sometimes you need a Negatron, or really need Last Whisper ASAP or w/e.
Shaco is a duelist, which is what makes him a good splitpusher.
People build hydra for a combination of splitpushing and combat stats, so they they can do both. If you just want to splitpush you build statik shiv, which outclasses hydra from a pure splitpushing perspective.
To be a splitpusher you need to either be good at dueling, have good escape, or be able to teleport into fights. Shaco has the former two, which is why you build hydra instead of shiv because a good shaco can 1v1 pretty much anyone.