Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Firox]

I think Sakurai and his team created very high expectations when the game was announced as "Ultimate" and featured Ridley/K. Rool because then everyone went ape **** expecting all these fan favorites to be announced. But looking back at things, I don't think Sakurai nor his team did anything wrong. The guy flat out said "don't expect too many new challengers" at E3 2018 and what does everyone do? Expect too many new challengers. I believed the box theory before the Grinch leak came out because I took Sakurai's word and honestly, I should have continued to do so instead of allowing a leak to give me false hope. It's so ridiculous a lot of us believed that 6 or so characters would actually be announced on the same day lmao.

To me, the main issue with the Smash community is that people have grown too attached to the idea that if your favorite character is popular during speculation, or popular for a long period of time, they have a huge chance which isn't always the case (I'm so sorry Isaac fans).

Yup, I think you're right, but hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? We thought that ridley and Krool were some kind of guarantee that our smash poll prayers had been heard, but if we've learned anything, it's that Nintendo's agenda is far more wonton than any of us could have imagined.
PS: I figured the box theory might have been true but it was more a matter of not WANTING to believe it.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Yup, I think you're right, but hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? We thought that ridley and Krool were some kind of guarantee that our smash poll prayers had been heard, but if we've learned anything, it's that Nintendo's agenda is far more wonton than any of us could have imagined.
PS: I figured the box theory might have been true but it was more a matter of not WANTING to believe it.

People just need to keep their expectations in check. I don't care if this makes me sound like the hype police or whatever because when people don't keep their expectations in check, the community becomes a storm of negativity and toxicity. I think it's understandable for people to think "wow Ridley and Krool are here? Maybe that means we're getting a lot of ballot choices!". The keyword there is maybe. Instead, people decided "OMG WE'RE GETTING GENO, WE'RE GETTING ISAAC, WE'RE GETTING BANJO" and then unfairly began to harass Sakurai for not living up to an expectation he never presented in the first place. There's a lot for the community to learn from this speculation cycle, and this is exactly why I'm staying away from leaks. If Erdrick isn't announced and people get pissed for once again expecting something Sakurai never promised, I'm going to lose all faith that this community has the capacity to learn from their mistakes.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

While I can agree that Ultimate's a fantastic game and its side content is way better than Smash 4's ever was (even if it could use some variety - you can only get so much mileage out of fighting CPUs over and over, take it from me), I wouldn't exactly call that final Direct handling things well. They saved basically every piece of bad news for that one direct - Kencineroar box theory, literally the least interesting possible outcome for the base roster, being true, no Stadium modes bar Multi-Man, tons of particularly painful AT deconfirmations followed by a plant, etc - which is the opposite of good PR. They could've easily sprinkled some of that unfortunate info in some of the previous Directs to soften the blow... but they didn't. Kudos to Sakurai and Nintendo for making a great game and all that, but frankly, I think the only way I wouldn't have been disappointed by that Direct is if I had went in actively expecting to be disappointed.

I don't think you can blame Nintendo for Kencineroar Box theory as the end. Smash has never really had the most hype announcements at the end and again Sakurai had stressed that they went overboard in the August Direct, so the end realistically was looking rough pre-November Direct. I mean Ken's kind of a big deal too, and while, yes, he is just an Echo, he's been terribly underappreciated given that announcement. They had also positioned that Direct to focus on World of Light too. That was clear from August going forward that the last mode was going to be a big reveal later on. Even though people like to complain about the deconfirmations, that had also been set as a precedent as early as E3. Each of the three Directs focused on Smash had equally painful deconfirmations. E3 had Bomberman and Waluigi, August had Shovel Knight, Krystal, and Ashley, and November had Isaac and Shadow. I guess Springman and Rex technically count, but everybody in the community knew they weren't making base and honestly Springman was always kind of questionable even though I don't think a lot of speculation reflected that. Spirits remain to be seen as far as they impact DLC.

Again, Incineroar was a more standard character. But I think a very good portion of the salt towards him (And he doesn't deserve, he's genuinely a cool and unique character) was just from people hoping to "BTFO Verge" or whatever. Incineroar became the scapegoat for all of the community's resistance to leakers and hope for Grinch. His reveal carried so much negativity as a choice more because of what he meant rather than his own character (And also people endlessly complaining about the number of Pokemon like that really should matter...)

I don't know, it's a lot easier for me to reflect upon November and see it as less inherently flawed. Maybe a slight change up in reveal order, but that doesn't really change whose on the roster and would have just been more grief in the community pre-November Direct.

They've handled the game in a reasonable fashion. "Extremely well" seems a bit of an overstatement. While I agree that there were many modes that seemed pointless and unfun in Smash 4, there were things like Smash Run that I thought were an absolute blast that I hope get patched into Ultimate at some point in the near future.

As of now, Ultimate is extremely bare-bones. In terms of characters and gameplay, the game is definitely unmatched, but in terms of pretty much everything else, it's severely lacking. Let's look at the online. I'd have to say that Smash 4 had the best format we've seen to date. There was "For fun" to keep the casuals happy with items and FFA, and then there was "For Glory" with 1v1 and no items to appease the competitive crowd. Now, granted, I much prefer Ultimate's ability to customize the rulesets and not be stuck with FD stages only with 2 stocks and 3 minutes. I despised that format because the timer was waaaay too short and often resulted in a crapload of sudden deaths (in ultimate, I've only ever experienced 4 out of hundreds of battles), but I digress. My greatest issue with Ultimate's online is the massive pain in the butt it is to play with friends in any way, shape or form. You can only play arenas with one person per switch, so if you had hoped to have yourself and a friend/sibling/spouse/etc. play local while connecting to a pair of players elsewhere, you're outta luck. This wasn't the case in Smash 4. My brother and I could just make a room and have our cousins jump in from their house and we could play 2v2s etc. No more. Then we have Quickplay. I think we're all aware of the issues with this but to name a few: Can't switch characters without dropping the opponent, can't turn off GSP if you want to go full casual and inconsistent matchmaking.

As far as single player modes, sorry but World of Light is a monotonous slog of uninspired AI battles. Anyone who's played subspace emissary knows that ain't a story mode. It's better than nothing, but it is what it is. The whole spirits mechanic is overrated and by the time you have all the most uber spirits to equip, WoL has already long since been beaten into submission.

Now, don't get me wrong, the fans are very much to blame if we get our hopes too high, but holy crap was the Grinch leak a low blow. I mean, it was a fairly well-crafted hoax with all kinds of planted rumors and such, literally promising our wildest dreams.....and then we got Ken...and Incineroar....and Piranha Plant....the end. It was such a drastic plunge in expectations, I could hardly believe it. It was like being told we were going to Disneyland, but then getting dropped off in skid row (all due respect to their fans).

Like I said, as far as characters and gameplay goes, Ultimate is a slam dunk, but it's far from perfect even by the standards of previous iterations. And the reason why I say that characters are the primary source of hype is because they are the ones that rake in the casuals. There are so many people that have yet to get into Smash, but when they see characters like Cloud or Bayonetta or Joker, they start to come out of the woodwork. "Hey, maybe I'll finally break down and buy a switch to play Smash." I know this because I have at least two friends that did just that. They refused to buy anything Nintendo OR smash until that one favorite character of theirs got a sexy reveal trailer and BAM! New converts brought into the fold. Which brings me to the single player options.

While I personally don't really stress too much about it, there are tons of people that aren't fixated on the competitive/online aspect of smash. They base their purchase on how much content there is BESIDES just characters. In that regard, Ultimate has some serious room to grow. I know how much work Sakurai has put in thus far, but if we don't get any legitimately cool modes patched in later on, we'll be seeing a sharp decline in all but the usual staunch smash fans playing by the end of the year. Not saying I really care either way who's playing, but it's just a prediction.

Oh, I know Ultimate's not perfect and a big part of that is online. The Online needs to be completely reworked in my opinion and have actual playlists rather than this weird hybrid system with priorities given to certain ways of play. I think Sakurai misplayed his hand a little bit there and underestimated how much people don't like playing Smash unless it's with their preferred way. The other technical stuff is true as well, but a lot of that can be addressed in updates I think.

Smash Run isn't coming back. People expecting it too should realize it was the 3DS's premiere mode for a reason. It's a huge investment of resources and Sakurai already got to take some shortcuts from Kid Icarus Uprising. It was always one of the least likely modes to come back. Too many assets that need to be made from the ground-up, and while the mode was fun, I don't necessarily have the payoff in returning anyway to justify the work.

Similarly, Subspace was fun as well. But it was also pretty barebones as far as gameplay was concerned and another massive resource dump for all of the assets and especially cut scenes. Subspace is super nostalgic for me, but it definitely plays a little like a poor man's Kirby on reflection. World of Light might be too damn padded, but it works fairly well as a campaign substitute when they genuinely didn't have the time and resources to just poor behind a mode. But I know it's a personal taste thing. I still enjoy it, but I see where others don't. I think it's about as successful as Subspace, just too padded for its own good. They both promise more than they achieve, and if it wasn't for the cut scenes, I really don't think a lot of Subspace would be remembered as fondly.

Again, I can't stress how much Grinch made no sense. People to this day will claim it was such a well made hoax, but it wasn't. Everything fell apart the more things were scrutinized and the only, the only possible way it could be true relied on Sakurai lying to us constantly for some big GOTCHA moment a month before the game released. That "drastic plunge in expectations" has got to owned by the community more than it is.

I don't believe the whole "casuals want specific characters" argument holds a ton of weight. Nothing really points to that as reality. Ultimate has the fewest newcomers of any Smash game in history, yet has incredibly well. And that really comes down to just having Smash on Switch and creating a massive successful hype campaign around the game by showing how much bang it had for your buck. While there's no way for me to know it, I'd wager that there were relatively few people waiting for Ridley or King K. Rool to really buy a Smash game. Their popularity and demand stemmed entirely from a community of people who already played the game. All my anecdotal evidence also points towards "more casual people" (I.E. friends, family, acquaintances) didn't really care who was in the game. The number of characters impressed them and created hype when many of them had re-invested in Nintendo thanks to the success of the Switch. And most of those people just break out Smash to play with friends and couldn't be bothered to care about any other mode than standard Smash.

 

[Firox]

People just need to keep their expectations in check. I don't care if this makes me sound like the hype police or whatever because when people don't keep their expectations in check, the community becomes a storm of negativity and toxicity. I think it's understandable for people to think "wow Ridley and Krool are here? Maybe that means we're getting a lot of ballot choices!". The keyword there is maybe. Instead, people decided "OMG WE'RE GETTING GENO, WE'RE GETTING ISAAC, WE'RE GETTING BANJO" and then unfairly began to harass Sakurai for not living up to an expectation he never presented in the first place. There's a lot for the community to learn from this speculation cycle, and this is exactly why I'm staying away from leaks. If Erdrick isn't announced and people get pissed for once again expecting something Sakurai never promised, I'm going to lose all faith that this community has the capacity to learn from their mistakes.

I hear ya. After the release of Piranha plant, I learned one important truth. EXPECT NOTHING BUT THE UNEXPECTED!

I don't believe the whole "casuals want specific characters" argument holds a ton of weight. Nothing really points to that as reality. Ultimate has the fewest newcomers of any Smash game in history, yet has incredibly well. And that really comes down to just having Smash on Switch and creating a massive successful hype campaign around the game by showing how much bang it had for your buck. While there's no way for me to know it, I'd wager that there were relatively few people waiting for Ridley or King K. Rool to really buy a Smash game. Their popularity and demand stemmed entirely from a community of people who already played the game. All my anecdotal evidence also points towards "more casual people" (I.E. friends, family, acquaintances) didn't really care who was in the game. The number of characters impressed them and created hype when many of them had re-invested in Nintendo thanks to the success of the Switch. And most of those people just break out Smash to play with friends and couldn't be bothered to care about any other mode than standard Smash.

I'll just have to chalk this up to a difference of opinion/experience. You may not know many people who based their purchase off the characters featured, but I do. And I laugh when people say that Smash Ultimate was only successful because it's on switch. I've actually seen it the other way around. I know at least four people, including my brother and my best friend that waited until Smash was released before buying a Switch. As for characters, I'd say quality definitely wins out over quantity. The game could have 400 characters, but if 375 of them were straight up clones I wouldn't be too impressed. What good is a character if there's no "character" to it? No uniqueness for it to appeal to certain people like never before. There's definitely other people that would share that sentiment, especially if there were literally no other modes besides standard smash and classic. Again, it's mostly a difference of opinion, but I agree with all your other points.

 

[The Anigriffin]

This is it, I can feel it. This month we're getting the second DLC character announced. I just hope it's soon rather than later.

Did someone say April 30th direct?

 

[GoodGrief741]

The November 1st Direct wasn't a case of people having high expectations; not everyone believed or expected the Grinch. That Direct was just a case of people having expectations, period. When you expect a company to deliver the bare minimum that can be logically expected out of a company with a sane PR department, that's not being out of line.

It's absurd to imagine that the design of a box would reveal the number of missing characters yet to be revealed. Why would a company working hard to prevent leaks reveal the number of characters left through a box design? That doesn't make sense, so people assumed Nintendo was smarter.

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

It's absurd to imagine that the last characters revealed wouldn't be hype. The idea of marketing is to build up hype, exponentially, not to die out at the end. So even when we were told that the last characters would be Ken and Incineroar, it wasn't illogical to assume it was wrong. That's a terrible way to end a release cycle that started out with Everyone is Here.

So yeah, people didn't have unrealistic expectations. They just expected Smash Ultimate to be marketed like most other products are. It was very much a case of terrible PR.

 

[ZelDan]

Did someone say April 30th direct?

View attachment 203929

>April 30th Direct
>Sakurai shows off Joker and new modes we already know about
>"That's all for now, but before we go, we have one more surprise for you..."
>Smash fandom: OH ****!
>Sakurai unveils a Spirits event where EVERY spirit earns TRIPLE coins and SP!

 

[Ovaltine]

The November 1st Direct wasn't a case of people having high expectations; not everyone believed or expected the Grinch. That Direct was just a case of people having expectations, period. When you expect a company to deliver the bare minimum that can be logically expected out of a company with a sane PR department, that's not being out of line.

It's absurd to imagine that the design of a box would reveal the number of missing characters yet to be revealed. Why would a company working hard to prevent leaks reveal the number of characters left through a box design? That doesn't make sense, so people assumed Nintendo was smarter.

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

It's absurd to imagine that the last characters revealed wouldn't be hype. The idea of marketing is to build up hype, exponentially, not to die out at the end. So even when we were told that the last characters would be Ken and Incineroar, it wasn't illogical to assume it was wrong. That's a terrible way to end a release cycle that started out with Everyone is Here.

So yeah, people didn't have unrealistic expectations. They just expected Smash Ultimate to be marketed like most other products are. It was very much a case of terrible PR.

Pretty much how I feel in a shellnut. I didn't even believe the Grinch, and my expectations were bare minimum. The only character I expected (that a lot of people did, mind) was Shadow... so like, even my bare minimum expectations were flattened. It was a weird freaking time.

 

[The Anigriffin]

The November 1st Direct wasn't a case of people having high expectations; not everyone believed or expected the Grinch. That Direct was just a case of people having expectations, period. When you expect a company to deliver the bare minimum that can be logically expected out of a company with a sane PR department, that's not being out of line.

It's absurd to imagine that the design of a box would reveal the number of missing characters yet to be revealed. Why would a company working hard to prevent leaks reveal the number of characters left through a box design? That doesn't make sense, so people assumed Nintendo was smarter.

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

It's absurd to imagine that the last characters revealed wouldn't be hype. The idea of marketing is to build up hype, exponentially, not to die out at the end. So even when we were told that the last characters would be Ken and Incineroar, it wasn't illogical to assume it was wrong. That's a terrible way to end a release cycle that started out with Everyone is Here.

So yeah, people didn't have unrealistic expectations. They just expected Smash Ultimate to be marketed like most other products are. It was very much a case of terrible PR.

I'm still sad my poor birb missed out. Like I expected Roar, but I'm still a bit salty about it.

>April 30th Direct
>Sakurai shows off Joker and new modes we already know about
>"That's all for now, but before we go, we have one more surprise for you..."
>Smash fandom: OH ****!
>Sakurai unveils a Spirits event where EVERY spirit earns TRIPLE coins and SP!

This comment caused me physical pain.

 

[MattX20]

View attachment 203931

I'm still sad my poor birb missed out. Like I expected Roar, but I'm still a bit salty about it.




This comment caused me physical pain.

I know the feeling. I wanted Decidueye too along with Geno.

 

[Firox]

The November 1st Direct wasn't a case of people having high expectations; not everyone believed or expected the Grinch. That Direct was just a case of people having expectations, period. When you expect a company to deliver the bare minimum that can be logically expected out of a company with a sane PR department, that's not being out of line.

It's absurd to imagine that the design of a box would reveal the number of missing characters yet to be revealed. Why would a company working hard to prevent leaks reveal the number of characters left through a box design? That doesn't make sense, so people assumed Nintendo was smarter.

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

It's absurd to imagine that the last characters revealed wouldn't be hype. The idea of marketing is to build up hype, exponentially, not to die out at the end. So even when we were told that the last characters would be Ken and Incineroar, it wasn't illogical to assume it was wrong. That's a terrible way to end a release cycle that started out with Everyone is Here.

So yeah, people didn't have unrealistic expectations. They just expected Smash Ultimate to be marketed like most other products are. It was very much a case of terrible PR.

You have the magical ability to express my thoughts far better than I did.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Here's the thing: Ultimate as a title was entirely on the Western side. Japan went for the more conventional "Special". Even Sakurai thinks that Ultimate sounds a bit much.

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...nha-plant-character-changes-online-much-more/

Putting the word “Special” in the title adds to the uniqueness of “Everyone is here”.*


Sakurai: It’s a word that can also mean “a production” or “a work”, so we felt it was quite appropriate. The overseas version is called “Ultimate”. I don’t think this word has the same feeling in Japan, so we unfortunately made the titles different from each other.


*NOTE: The Japanese title for the game is “Super Smash Bros. Special”.


Yes, I think the word “ultimate” gives off a somewhat obsessive impression.


Sakurai: The word “Deluxe” has a powerful feeling to it as well, but we wanted to use a word that’s familiar. When you look at titles used in TV shows, the word “Special” is all over the place. It made me wonder if it’s being overused (laughs). We’ve already used “Deluxe” with an entry in the “Smash Bros.” series*, so we tried to think what would come after that.

Ultimate as a title is purely a product of NOA, which habitually gives us promo material for Kirby like THIS:

http://www.retrogamingaus.com/wordp...s/2012/04/Kirbys-Avalanche-and-Ghost-Trap.jpg
http://homerced.over-blog.com/article-insolite-differences-entre-jaquettes-***-et-us-112857504.html

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'll just have to chalk this up to a difference of opinion/experience. You may not know many people who based their purchase off the characters featured, but I do. And I laugh when people say that Smash Ultimate was only successful because it's on switch. I've actually seen it the other way around. I know at least four people, including my brother and my best friend that waited until Smash was released before buying a Switch. As for characters, I'd say quality definitely wins out over quantity. The game could have 400 characters, but if 375 of them were straight up clones I wouldn't be too impressed. What good is a character if there's no "character" to it? No uniqueness for it to appeal to certain people like never before. There's definitely other people that would share that sentiment, especially if there were literally no other modes besides standard smash and classic. Again, it's mostly a difference of opinion, but I agree with all your other points.

Makes sense. Different strokes for different folks. I will clarify that I meant, the greater success of something like Smash Ultimate over Smash 4 because of the perfect storm of a successful hype campaign to make Smash a big deal and the the success of the Switch. Smash acts as an appetizing game for people interested in a the Switch, and when you have things like Zelda and Mario on something also getting a lot of solid titles, it makes the overall package more appealing. The crazy month one sales that are much higher than Smash 4 I think shows that situation and that’s more what I was getting at.

The November 1st Direct wasn't a case of people having high expectations; not everyone believed or expected the Grinch. That Direct was just a case of people having expectations, period. When you expect a company to deliver the bare minimum that can be logically expected out of a company with a sane PR department, that's not being out of line.

It's absurd to imagine that the design of a box would reveal the number of missing characters yet to be revealed. Why would a company working hard to prevent leaks reveal the number of characters left through a box design? That doesn't make sense, so people assumed Nintendo was smarter.

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

It's absurd to imagine that the last characters revealed wouldn't be hype. The idea of marketing is to build up hype, exponentially, not to die out at the end. So even when we were told that the last characters would be Ken and Incineroar, it wasn't illogical to assume it was wrong. That's a terrible way to end a release cycle that started out with Everyone is Here.

So yeah, people didn't have unrealistic expectations. They just expected Smash Ultimate to be marketed like most other products are. It was very much a case of terrible PR.

Why would box be true? Because **** happens with leaks all the time that are really stupid and four of Smash’s characters had already been leaked already by that point. It’s just a part of the industry today for all major publishers. Especially when you’re working with marketing material and it’s changing hands many times and becoming more exposed. It’s also Nintendo we’re talking about, who comically make the stupidest of errors with some frequency.

While I admit I didn’t expect them to reveal all the stages in August like they did, it again makes sense in retrospect with how they positioned marketing. August was the blowout for the rest the game, November was the blowout for Spirits and World of Light. Regardless of how it’s reception, it was clearly positioned to be a major component of significant value, and that’s what November was about.

And no, the culmination theory doesn’t really sit with me. Neither Brawl, nor Smash 4 had big finish endings with their character reveals, so the precedent set had been not to expect one. And again, Ken’s kind of a big deal as much as people down play him and you’re still getting an original full character with Incineorar. He may not be a fan favorite, but he brings something to Smash and should definitely be valued more than we have a tendency to in the fan communities.

Everyone is Here was never going to be topped, it was the big reveal, and then sakurai admitted that he went overboard to create a big moment in August. All the writing on the wall was there before the November Direct. And from a PR standpoint, it didn’t matter. They’d done their job in creating interest and momentum for the game by that point. What was or wasn’t the revealed in November couldn’t stop the force that was Ultimate, and the sales and massively positive reception of the game reflect that.

 

[UberMadman]

It's absurd to imagine that the number of stages revealed 4 months before release is final. Stages are probably the biggest element in Smash next to characters, so it's not wrong to assume they would save something for later. People, again, assumed Nintendo wasn't tipping their hand.

This one point I want to talk about specifically because I see it made a lot, but it has never fit Sakurai's style of character reveals. The final reveal for Brawl before launch was Olimar, and one of the first was Snake. (Yes, Sonic was one of the last reveals before launch, but that was literally because he was added to the game partway through development.) The final reveal before launch was Shulk, (who was decently obscure at the time, mind you,) and the first two were Villager and Mega Man. Ultimate ended with Incineroar and started with Inklings and Ridley, as you are well aware. For the most part, the characters who will pack the most punch tend to get revealed early specifically so they don't get leaked. Yes, Sakurai tends to sprinkle some weird reveals in early too like ZSS and Wii Fit Trainer, and sure Pac-Man was revealed in a very bizarre manor, but for the most part, Sakurai has tended to start with the shocking and mainstream characters and end with the recent or obscure ones.

 

[The Anigriffin]

Ultimate as a title is purely a product of NOA, which habitually gives us promo material for Kirby like THIS:

http://www.retrogamingaus.com/wordp...s/2012/04/Kirbys-Avalanche-and-Ghost-Trap.jpg
http://homerced.over-blog.com/article-insolite-differences-entre-jaquettes-***-et-us-112857504.html

Just gonna leave this travesty here.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Just gonna leave this travesty here.

View attachment 203987

It's like eating burgers from a trash can.

 

[The Anigriffin]

It's like eating burgers from a trash can.

At least that’s more accurate to the game.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

This one point I want to talk about specifically because I see it made a lot, but it has never fit Sakurai's style of character reveals. The final reveal for Brawl before launch was Olimar, and one of the first was Snake. (Yes, Sonic was one of the last reveals before launch, but that was literally because he was added to the game partway through development.) The final reveal before launch was Shulk, (who was decently obscure at the time, mind you,) and the first two were Villager and Mega Man. Ultimate ended with Incineroar and started with Inklings and Ridley, as you are well aware. For the most part, the characters who will pack the most punch tend to get revealed early specifically so they don't get leaked. Yes, Sakurai tends to sprinkle some weird reveals in early too like ZSS and Wii Fit Trainer, and sure Pac-Man was revealed in a very bizarre manor, but for the most part, Sakurai has tended to start with the shocking and mainstream characters and end with the recent or obscure ones.

Exactly. For some weird reason, western fans that are vocal (no offense to the fine folks here) keep forgetting what happens at the end of roster reveals by the next entry/DLC cycle and assume "surely he'll end things with a BANG!", setting up their expectations too high, only to inevitably crash at the end. You're supposed to expect the unexpected.

So to those people, I say this:

 

[FLGibsonIII]

Here's the thing: Ultimate as a title was entirely on the Western side. Japan went for the more conventional "Special". Even Sakurai thinks that Ultimate sounds a bit much.

https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...nha-plant-character-changes-online-much-more/


Ultimate as a title is purely a product of NOA, which habitually gives us promo material for Kirby like THIS:

http://www.retrogamingaus.com/wordp...s/2012/04/Kirbys-Avalanche-and-Ghost-Trap.jpg
http://homerced.over-blog.com/article-insolite-differences-entre-jaquettes-***-et-us-112857504.html

The "He used to be such a good boy." gets me every time.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

WHOA, who saw the April 1, 2019 Nintendo Direct?! I'm so excited!! Polar, how did you not know about this?!

I can't wait for Turbotax and Carfax to come to the Switch!

 

[GoodGrief741]

The 'every Smash game ends with a whimper' argument doesn't really hold up for me. Sure, that had happened, but Ultimate had been doing everything differently up until then. A shorter hype period, and revealing every character before release, for example. That, combined with the ballot having preceded the game and the fact that between the August Direct and the November Direct we had had only one reveal, and people were going to expect something big.

Also, I'd like to add that if everything got leaked beforehand and nobody wanted to believe it, that says something about what we got.

You have the magical ability to express my thoughts far better than I did.

I think it's safe to say that I never got over that Direct. I did need to process it, and while I'm not even mad anymore, I'm not going to pretend mistakes weren't made.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

WHOA, who saw the April 1, 2019 Nintendo Direct?! I'm so excited!! Polar, how did you not know about this?!

I can't wait for Turbotax and Carfax to come to the Switch!

Meh, I'm more interested in Donkey Kong's Divorce Cruise.

The 'every Smash game ends with a whimper' argument doesn't really hold up for me. Sure, that had happened, but Ultimate had been doing everything differently up until then. A shorter hype period, and revealing every character before release, for example. That, combined with the ballot having preceded the game and the fact that between the August Direct and the November Direct we had had only one reveal, and people were going to expect something big.

Also, I'd like to add that if everything got leaked beforehand and nobody wanted to believe it, that says something about what we got.

I think it's safe to say that I never got over that Direct. I did need to process it, and while I'm not even mad anymore, I'm not going to pretend mistakes weren't made.

Grinch took advantage of people's expectations in a single week, that didn't help in the slightest.

After all this, people wanted Nintendo to take their time with their reveals (something they themselves acknowledged after the August Direct). Result; nothing much happened after December and now everyone, with too much time available, is completely exhausted waiting for news. Be careful what you wish for. Sure, they could have mushed the content for the August and November directs (plus Isabelle) together in one Direct, but the wait would have been even longer afterwards before the game got out.

Basically, it was 4's base roster speculation-to-release cycle, set on Hyper Turbo Championship Edition. With chairs, for some silly reason.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The 'every Smash game ends with a whimper' argument doesn't really hold up for me. Sure, that had happened, but Ultimate had been doing everything differently up until then. A shorter hype period, and revealing every character before release, for example. That, combined with the ballot having preceded the game and the fact that between the August Direct and the November Direct we had had only one reveal, and people were going to expect something big.

Also, I'd like to add that if everything got leaked beforehand and nobody wanted to believe it, that says something about what we got.

I think it's safe to say that I never got over that Direct. I did need to process it, and while I'm not even mad anymore, I'm not going to pretend mistakes weren't made.

People never want to believe that speculation is over is the thing and that the game is final. I was one of those people for Smash 4 and it was a big deal then. Same for Smash 4 DLC. And again for Ultimate. That’s just the nature of speculation. Even if we had gotten everything in the Grinch leak, there’d still be people upset.

I just never got the mindset that the end had to be some grand finale even at the time. I admit I expected Shadow because he was super easy, and i wanted to believe in us getting someone more like Geno for bonus DLC. But that was just me being more optimistic at the time.

The idea of a grand finish was never rooted in anything. And most things implied the opposite. Sakurai warmed us at E3 that there wouldn’t be many newcomers. He told us again after the August Direct that he’d gotten a little too trigger happy. That should have been the moment that brought things back down to earth, but for some reason it felt like the community just completely ignored Sakurai. He’s our literal word of God, yet people pulled out all kinds of defenses out for why there was a surprise waiting for us.

Ultimate really didn’t feel that different to me either. Sakurai clearly was listening to fans a lot more, and really trying for some great idea of making a more special Smash, but I never took that to mean the realization of all our requests (and he did add over 10 characters because of fan demand while retaining the roster from 4, we can’t understate how big that was). And the ballot was never promised as anything, and we saw it directly impact a lot of this game beyond November.

I lay most of the blame to the negativity of November at feet of the fans with most of that in mind. Yes, I understand Incineroar was not a particularly enticing pick for a lot of people, but he was going to disappoint people whenever he showed up because the Smash community does have a tendency to overwhelming favor fan picks and largely resist anything else, and that got much worse with this game from a lot of what I’ve seen.

 

[link2702]

so in other news today...to get rid of a gift card I had at vintage stock....I ended up buying an original grey gameboy.

now aside from the gamecube, I have gotten every old game, and every old system I originally had as a kid(well....except one snes game, toys, the game based on the movie with robin williams in it. But honestly I don't think that would be hard to track down, nor am I in any sort of hurry to get THAT piece of shovelware anytime soon anyway....)

It feels kinda....odd. Like i'm happy but not happy. I have all these old games and old systems now, all of them having been cleaned, some having their 2032 batteries replaced.....and yet...I just am not enjoying em much. I guess this journey getting everything back really was more enjoyable than the destination.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

Not exactly. OG smash, melee and brawl were each built from the ground up. Smash 4 cut some corners by using the base models and animations of Brawl, and Ultimate straight up ripped the V8 right out of 4, threw it in a new chassis and suped it up. Hence why Ultimate's development time was so surprisingly short. Technically, melee was made in two years as well, but when you consider the sheer difference in content between Melee and ultimate, it's apples and oranges.

The point I was trying to make is that Ultimate and 4 are by far the most similar iterations, which might explain why some people feel an over-familiarity with the game this time around.

Melee taking only two years of development is ****ing impressive. It was the only one in the series that had the shortest development, a span of two years and ten months. Melee turned out to be a masterpiece and took a huge direction in Smash's gameplay, along with a more competitive tone. For a game with only two years and ten months of development, Melee had a lot to offer. I still consider Melee to be my personal favorite to this day, mostly because it was my first and was the game where I played 2-4 players at my friend's house all the time.

I really liked the pre-Brawl era. Nobody knew what was going to come next, but it took us 5 (for the teaser) and 7 years to find out once Brawl made its way to the spotlight. As a man who loves Melee, I think Brawl did itself very well, despite the gameplay being a lot different compared to Melee; they both had great characters, amazing stages, and fun adventure modes. Gosh, I miss HAL. They always made their Smash games... nostalgic and special.

 

[dreamstar_g]

sum geno art i made yesterday

 

[Deleted member]

The 'every Smash game ends with a whimper' argument doesn't really hold up for me.

It doesn't for me.

In Brawl, I got Olimar as the final newcomer, and that hyped me up because I loved Pikmin 2 at the time. Add how there were four secret newcomers with a bunch of hidden veterans and I found little to be disappointed about.

In Smash 4, I didn't give a **** about Shulk beyond his music, but Duck Hunt and Bowser Jr. got leaked and that made me even more hype for the game. I can't say Smash 4's base hype ended on a whimper. Even with Bayonetta as its final DLC newcomer, I felt she was a character requested but never really possible like Joker. Well look where we are now.

Smash Ultimate? You could argue Piranha Plant is a buzzkill, but Joker revitalized a lot of hype from what I saw. I'm just interested where we're going from here.

 

[ZelDan]

brawl ended on a whimper for me. I was disappointed by no Megaman (I remember thinking "geez, Sonic and friggin Snake can get into Smash, but not the third party character with a massive history working with Nintendo?), Isaac and Lyn and AT'd, no Dixie Kong...

Smash 4 I wasn't as bothered. While I wasn't as huge a fan of XC1 as others, I still enjoyed the game and thought Shulk was a cool and surprising addition.

Ultimate's November 1st direct was a complete trainwreck and I regret waking up early for it.

 

[Ovaltine]

Funny enough, Ultimate was the only one to really end on a whimper for me. Brawl and 4, I ended up leaving the game cycle (and in 4's case, base game cycle) perfectly peachy, even if a little sad at the lack of K. Rool. I'd given up hope on him by then, though, along with Banjo. Geno, I wasn't into until later down the line, so he actually isn't applicable there.

Ultimate is the first time I've been this saddened over the final hurrah, honestly.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

This one point I want to talk about specifically because I see it made a lot, but it has never fit Sakurai's style of character reveals. The final reveal for Brawl before launch was Olimar, and one of the first was Snake. (Yes, Sonic was one of the last reveals before launch, but that was literally because he was added to the game partway through development.) The final reveal before launch was Shulk, (who was decently obscure at the time, mind you,) and the first two were Villager and Mega Man. Ultimate ended with Incineroar and started with Inklings and Ridley, as you are well aware. For the most part, the characters who will pack the most punch tend to get revealed early specifically so they don't get leaked. Yes, Sakurai tends to sprinkle some weird reveals in early too like ZSS and Wii Fit Trainer, and sure Pac-Man was revealed in a very bizarre manor, but for the most part, Sakurai has tended to start with the shocking and mainstream characters and end with the recent or obscure ones.

Implying Olimar isn't hype, lol

 

[Qeomash]

I can't say Smash 4's base hype ended on a whimper. Even with Bayonetta as its final DLC newcomer, I felt she was a character requested but never really possible like Joker. Well look where we are now.

I felt that the end of smash 4's dlc was a huge disappointment for me. Yet another fire emblem character, and someone who I hadn't even heard of? And Geno got snubbed and put in as a useless Mii costume?

I didn't buy any of it I was so disappointed.

 

[KoopaSaki]

If anything I’m sure that Nintendo will bend to the fans a little more overtime given that I think the new holy trinity is Isaac banjo and geno. Those 3 are so highly requested and now that K. Rool and Ridley have joined the fight, the demand is even higher than it was prior. Realistically I think banjo has the highest chance, but if we get more fighter passes in the future, I think geno might be our last dlc, and Isaac May just get promoted given the first party slots for new franchises.

 

[egaddmario]

This one point I want to talk about specifically because I see it made a lot, but it has never fit Sakurai's style of character reveals. The final reveal for Brawl before launch was Olimar, and one of the first was Snake. (Yes, Sonic was one of the last reveals before launch, but that was literally because he was added to the game partway through development.) The final reveal before launch was Shulk, (who was decently obscure at the time, mind you,) and the first two were Villager and Mega Man. Ultimate ended with Incineroar and started with Inklings and Ridley, as you are well aware. For the most part, the characters who will pack the most punch tend to get revealed early specifically so they don't get leaked. Yes, Sakurai tends to sprinkle some weird reveals in early too like ZSS and Wii Fit Trainer, and sure Pac-Man was revealed in a very bizarre manor, but for the most part, Sakurai has tended to start with the shocking and mainstream characters and end with the recent or obscure ones.

Y-yeah, who would ever w-want Olimar and Shulk as their most wanted...t-that's just plain silly. No one wo-would ever want them...*cough*

 

[EricTheGamerman]

To be clear, I’m not saying the final reveals aren’t hype to people. Every character is wanted by someone and has their fan base. I was a big supporter of Shulk during Smash 4 so I was pretty hype when he got announced. But Incineroar and Piranha Plant certainly had their fans as well (and both instantaneously won me over because they’re well done and unique characters).

I’m saying overall, the final reveal has never been the absolute MOST hype, nor have the secret characters in Brawl and Smash 4. They’ve always just been more characters.

You can be excited or disappointed with whomever, that’s completely fine. I just fundamentally don’t agree with blaming Nintendo for November being a personal disappointment. From what I’m reading it seems to be that people thought another fan favorite was possible and instead we ended on Incineroar.

So how does that mean Nintendo made a mistake? Every Smash Direct had painful disconfirms. At best I could see the idea that you reveal Incineroar earlier on to get him over with, but that doesn’t change whose in base and would have just made the time from his reveal to the next as intolerable. Think of how much the community thrives on Ridley’s and King K Rool’s reveals. If Incineroar had been at E3, it would have been the unbearable we’re only getting promotional picks as newcomers until August. Possibly the same if he’s revealed in August. He’s just always a lose-lose with this section of the community.

And maybe that’s the issue I’m indirectly highlighting here, but we’ve gone into the whole fan requests vs others debate before, so I’ll stop here since people are probably tiring of this discussion...

 

[Looma]

expectations: *exist*

my boy shadow the hedgehog on november 1st 2018:

 

[Firox]

Melee taking only two years of development is ****ing impressive. It was the only one in the series that had the shortest development, a span of two years and ten months. Melee turned out to be a masterpiece and took a huge direction in Smash's gameplay, along with a more competitive tone. For a game with only two years and ten months of development, Melee had a lot to offer. I still consider Melee to be my personal favorite to this day, mostly because it was my first and was the game where I played 2-4 players at my friend's house all the time.

I really liked the pre-Brawl era. Nobody knew what was going to come next, but it took us 5 (for the teaser) and 7 years to find out once Brawl made its way to the spotlight. As a man who loves Melee, I think Brawl did itself very well, despite the gameplay being a lot different compared to Melee; they both had great characters, amazing stages, and fun adventure modes. Gosh, I miss HAL. They always made their Smash games... nostalgic and special.

I gotta admit, the development time for melee really was a marvel. Considering the massive difference between it and the OG smash, it was like following up a Model T with a Ferrari. The competitive scene had managed to keep it alive for nearly 20 years, and only with the advent of Ultimate and the retiring of the 5 gods is it finally starting to peter out. That game will always be a legend by any standard, though I'm glad to at last see the smash community beginning to rally behind a single banner.

 

[Deleted member]

For me, I wasn't participating in the speculation season for Brawl or Smash 4, so I don't know how they ended for me.

As for Ultimate, it definitely ended on a whimper for me lol. I will never get the disappointment of the reveal that was Piranha Plant out of my head...

 

[Firox]

As for Ultimate, it definitely ended on a whimper for me lol. I will never get the disappointment of a reveal that was Piranha Plant out of my head...

^This.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

^This.

Sometimes it feels like Sakurai way overvalues "wtf" reactions that come with oddball character additions that nobody was asking for. After a couple weeks go by that reaction dies out and you're left with a character almost nobody uses.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sometimes it feels like Sakurai way overvalues "wtf" reactions that come with oddball character additions that nobody was asking for. After a couple weeks go by that reaction dies out and you're left with a character almost nobody uses.

I have mixed feelings on this because, while I love odd characters, a lot aren't competitively viable and Ultimate is especially guilty of this. I do agree that the novelty of Pirhana Plant has already worn off and we're stuck with a super gimmicky, subpar character though. At least it was free for a vast majority of us.