Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[MattX20]

We're getting a June Direct for sure; the March direct confirmed we will know who FP6 is in June, so it's not difficult to extrapolate we'll get more information then besides that, including a potential reveal for FP7

 

[Polarthief]

then besides that, including a guaranteed reveal for #7 and a potential reveal for #8

FTFY.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is the "AT can't get promoted" fan rule basically shattered at this point?

Until Spring Man gets in, then no. Or any other AT who has the same role of playable in the same game, DLC or not.

I mean, I never considered it a hard rule. It wasn't even mentioned much beyond "yeah, this guy is an AT so he's not currently playable right now" at best. DLC never even came up, and by the time Smash 4 DLC was announced, Sakurai never spoke about an AT being "not playable' again. There's like zero context for the "rule" to exist. It's a completely logical conclusion to come across, though. And it makes sense. Nobody expected a big role like that to change in base(which was already planned out, where some characters simply were not playable but got a major role of AT in its place. And others were already intended for AT's either way), and we had no idea what DLC will hold. Smash 4's DLC had no actual pattern to it specifically, nor a unique timeframe like Ultimate's. It just had a set of characters in their own kind of pack, and Mii costumes were actual bundles. A part of the issue is that there was also veterans still not back, either, so that bit makes it hard for people to believe they'd give an AT another role or literally promote them by removing their AT role. Not a high priority over veterans/new characters. Of course, it had no chance of happening during Brawl when DLC didn't exist. Come Ultimate, and a whole new DLC plan began. It has one bonus, and then a literal pass, and a second pass. Mii costumes stopped being bundled together entirely(which is very annoying. Not cause the price is higher, but because it takes more time than it should to get them all).

It's an observation thing at best. But that's generally what most fan-rules are. They take something that was somewhat out of context but also apply their observation to make it exist. They have some basis in reality, sometimes. There's also a difference in the arguments;

"Precedent says an AT is the final role for a character, and DLC wouldn't change that." This is so far true. This makes sense.
"Sakurai says an AT can't be playable via DLC." This isn't remotely true and he said nor implied that. That doesn't make sense.

You could apply the same thing for a Spirit or a Mii Costume so far if you want. But you get the idea. And don't get me started on how Trophies are hyper different from Spirits(they're different, but not significantly).

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Yeah i also think Lara isn't that likely like people think she is a litteraly PS character.

I think there's a more likely reason as to why Lara Croft is not joining Smash, and that is that the Tomb Raider series is not popular in Japan. Smash is japan centric, and while there are characters and series in Smash that are more popular in the west (Ridley, Little Mac) these are still japanese characters and franchises from Nintendo. All the third parties in Smash so far are japanese centric like Mega Man, Hero, Ryu etc. Sure some like Sonic the Hedgehog and Simon Belmont are more popular in say, the american makret, but at least those characters are recogniable to japanese gamers (quite a number of Konami Crossover games used Simon as the main Castlevania Representative, i mean Simon fought ****ing Optimus Pri-i mea Convoy) . Lara on the other had..........im not beign hyperbolic when i say japanese gamers probably recognize Sans more than Lara Croft, Rayman and ****ing Master Chief.

There are grey areas like Diddy Kong, K.Rool and Dark Samus, all characters made by non-japanese designers, but the fact that Banjo was the first character from a fully non-japanese franchise says a lot (Banjo wasn't unpopular there though, in fact he is fondly remembered from those who recognize him like a cult classic of sorts) I know it sounds unfair that a lot of game characters are seen as unlikely because of this, but that's how things are. I think the only characters that doesn't suffer from this are Crash and Steve.

I mean don't get me wrong, i could totally see this trend beign broken in Fighter Pass 2, as Fatmanonice said, a lot of previous assumptions have been shattered in this game, but i will have to see it with my own eyes. As of now, this traddition still stands.

 

[Droodle]

I think there's a more likely reason as to why Lara Croft is not joining Smash, and that is that the Tomb Raider series is not popular in Japan. Smash is japan centric, and while there are characters and series in Smash that are more popular in the west (Ridley, Little Mac) these are still japanese characters and franchises from Nintendo. All the third parties in Smash so far are japanese centric like Mega Man, Hero, Ryu etc. Sure some like Sonic the Hedgehog and Simon Belmont are more popular in say, the american makret, but at least those characters are recogniable to japanese gamers (quite a number of Konami Crossover games used Simon as the main Castlevania Representative, i mean Simon fought ****ing Optimus Pri-i mea Convoy) . Lara on the other had..........im not beign hyperbolic when i say japanese gamers probably recognize Sans more than Lara Croft, Rayman and ****ing Master Chief.

There are grey areas like Diddy Kong, K.Rool and Dark Samus, all characters made by non-japanese designers, but the fact that Banjo was the first character from a fully non-japanese franchise says a lot (Banjo wasn't unpopular there though, in fact he is fondly remembered from those who recognize him like a cult classic of sorts) I know it sounds unfair that a lot of game characters are seen as unlikely because of this, but that's how things are. I think the only characters that doesn't suffer from this are Crash and Steve.

I mean don't get me wrong, i could totally see this trend beign broken in Fighter Pass 2, as Fatmanonice said, a lot of previous assumptions have been shattered in this game, but i will have to see it with my own eyes. As of now, this traddition still stands.

I agree with most of what you are saying, Smash DLC tends to be JP centric (most characters in general do). That said, I wouldn't discount "Western characters that aren't popular in JP" that hard. We could get Ridley in Smash solely due to the Western fanbase (granted he was 1st party), so it's pretty clear that Nintendo listens to both sides (though they do favor JP a lot more).

Also saying Sans is more popular than most of those characters, isn't really saying much. Sans/UT are HUGE in japan (probably the biggest indie after MC over there), Sans also had a good amount of requests coming in from there too. Sans is probably more popular/known in japan compared to 90% of the Smash cast.

Crash definitely suffers from having bad JP popularity (him and Steve are nowhere near the same level). While he was big in JP back in the 2000's, he really isn't that big of a deal there anymore. He's still popular then the likes of Rayman, but N-sane Trilogy did not do well in japan with only 30k copies sold the first week. I can't even find the numbers for CTR Nitrofueled in JP, but the first CTR did around 300k; so it's safe to say that Crash's popularity did decline a ton in that region. In comparison both Tomb raider (2013) and Tomb Raider (2015) did around the same numbers as N-sane Trilogy.

 

[TriggerX]

I think there's a more likely reason as to why Lara Croft is not joining Smash, and that is that the Tomb Raider series is not popular in Japan. Smash is japan centric, and while there are characters and series in Smash that are more popular in the west (Ridley, Little Mac) these are still japanese characters and franchises from Nintendo. All the third parties in Smash so far are japanese centric like Mega Man, Hero, Ryu etc. Sure some like Sonic the Hedgehog and Simon Belmont are more popular in say, the american makret, but at least those characters are recogniable to japanese gamers (quite a number of Konami Crossover games used Simon as the main Castlevania Representative, i mean Simon fought ****ing Optimus Pri-i mea Convoy) . Lara on the other had..........im not beign hyperbolic when i say japanese gamers probably recognize Sans more than Lara Croft, Rayman and ****ing Master Chief.

There are grey areas like Diddy Kong, K.Rool and Dark Samus, all characters made by non-japanese designers, but the fact that Banjo was the first character from a fully non-japanese franchise says a lot (Banjo wasn't unpopular there though, in fact he is fondly remembered from those who recognize him like a cult classic of sorts) I know it sounds unfair that a lot of game characters are seen as unlikely because of this, but that's how things are. I think the only characters that doesn't suffer from this are Crash and Steve.

I mean don't get me wrong, i could totally see this trend beign broken in Fighter Pass 2, as Fatmanonice said, a lot of previous assumptions have been shattered in this game, but i will have to see it with my own eyes. As of now, this traddition still stands.

I agree and disagree. While it is more centered around characters popular in the Japan region, western characters cant be completely ruled out. I would assume at least 1 is in the cards.

For a lot of series smash bros has been a good way to promote and push their franchises into different hands. The biggest examples are fire emblem and dragon quest being pushed into the western market. Point is, is that the concept also works in reverse and could get japan more interested into more popular western characters like Master Chief and Lara Croft.

 

[MarioTime]

Yeah, i also think we should expect something from Cygames,
One day I heard that Nintendo has 5% of its shares, so I think they definitely want to add something to them in Smash.

Yoo if we get a Cygames rep I would absolutely love a Granblue Fantasy character, though they'll most likely go with Dragalia Lost character first

 

[Droodle]

Yoo if we get a Cygames rep I would absolutely love a Granblue Fantasy character, though they'll most likely go with Dragalia Lost character first

Nah, it'd probably be Granblue before Dragalia. It's their premier IP and one of the biggest games in JP. Dragalia is pretty unpopular in Japan, and the only thing it has going over GBF is that it's co owned by Nintendo. Companies (except for Microsoft) all chose their biggest IP to represent first. Sure, Capcom initially chose Mega-man, but Ryu came pretty soon after and likely earned them tons of money. It's why we have a Persona rep (mostly related to Sony) over a SMT rep (mostly related to Nintendo nowadays).

That said, I do expect something related to Cygames coming in eventually. They helped in the base game, and were involved in some of the Three Houses remixes. Whether it's a spirit event, costumes, or a full blown fighter remains to be seen.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I agree with most of what you are saying, Smash DLC tends to be JP centric (most characters in general do). That said, I wouldn't discount "Western characters that aren't popular in JP" that hard. We could get Ridley in Smash solely due to the Western fanbase (granted he was 1st party), so it's pretty clear that Nintendo listens to both sides (though they do favor JP a lot more).

Also saying Sans is more popular than most of those characters, isn't really saying much. Sans/UT are HUGE in japan (probably the biggest indie after MC over there), Sans also had a good amount of requests coming in from there too. Sans is probably more popular/known in japan compared to 90% of the Smash cast.

Crash definitely suffers from having bad JP popularity (him and Steve are nowhere near the same level). While he was big in JP back in the 2000's, he really isn't that big of a deal there anymore. He's still popular then the likes of Rayman, but N-sane Trilogy did not do well in japan with only 30k copies sold the first week. I can't even find the numbers for CTR Nitrofueled in JP, but the first CTR did around 300k; so it's safe to say that Crash's popularity did decline a ton in that region. In comparison both Tomb raider (2013) and Tomb Raider (2015) did around the same numbers as N-sane Trilogy.

Yeah i know about Ridley, but as i said, Ridley is a japanese franchise: Metroid. It's easier to add a character like that over a character like say, Lara Croft. Not the same situation.

and yes i know Sans in Japan is really popular for some reason. There was a recent Nintendo Dream poll about the most popular characters, and Sans was the ONLY non-nintendo character to make it to the top 10, he even beat FE 3 Houses Characters. But it does show how different things are over there

as for Crash, i know the N.Sane Trilogy isn't popular there, but i think there's a reason for that. The Crash Bandicoot games in Japan had a lot of alterations (different Soundtrack, different difficulty here and there and a lot of extra content like a Aku Aku giving you hints) to fit the market better. The N. Sane Trilogy is heavily sold on nostalgia, but it's hard to use that nostalgia when the version the japanese got was quite different, not just in the graphical department (the only things the N. Sane trilogy carries from the japanese versions of Crash are the Hint System that are now on the loading screens and Papu Papu's Health beign larger) Localization can make or break a product, and sometimes the localized version succeeds, that product is more popular than the "Accuarate" version (everybody here in Latin America calls Saint Seiya "Knights of the Zodiac", and that title is still used in here to this day), and i think this is an example. Still, Crash had a market in there and at least a number of people will recognize him should he join the battle, instead of going "who?". I see him kinda like a Banjo situation at worst (because he was more successful than Banjo at the time) so i expect him to see him before the likes of Master Chief or Rayman ever show up. (even if i like Rayman) who barely had any popularity in there back then or now.

Keep in mind im not against western third parties. I like the idea, and if Sakurai truly wants to expand the universe of Smash and turn this into the "Best character game in the world" i see this as inevitable. I know i sounded extra pessimistic but that's how i tend to be. I see as Crash as a possible choice (and a favorite one due to personal attachment) for Smash and i do prefer Rayman over the likes of MANY japanese third party fighters.

I agree and disagree. While it is more centered around characters popular in the Japan region, western characters cant be completely ruled out. I would assume at least 1 is in the cards.

For a lot of series smash bros has been a good way to promote and push their franchises into different hands. The biggest examples are fire emblem and dragon quest being pushed into the western market. Point is, is that the concept also works in reverse and could get japan more interested into more popular western characters like Master Chief and Lara Croft.

Yeah im sorry if sounded like a gatekeeping weeb. As i said in that post, a lo of trends have been broken. Banjo is in so we already kinda gettin there.

I could see a Chrom/Dark Samus or Hero/Banjo situation (two characters popular in japan and overseas respectively announced close to each other), but there would be a larger level of discrepancy or lack of overlap between fanbases this time around. Like, Doomguy and Reimu levels.

 

[axel_]

The universal mechanics of ARMS are enough to make a full moveset in Smash in my opinion , hence why you could have alts of other characters , as long as they have similar proportions to fit the hitboxes/hurtboxes and what not. They proved that different alts can have different idle animations or taunts () , so they can go the extra step and give each character their personality thanks to that. (They could even give every alt their 2 OG Victory screens from ARMS)

They proved with Joker that they can heavily tweak victory screens (FS victory screen , changing the environment around him during his victory animation) , and they have a DLC budget , so I think they can do that.

Also , slight nitpick:

All the koopalings have different personalities. Just play any of the RPGs , watch any of the Mario cartoons , or just something as simple as the first manuals of SMB3/W. They however all fit a role , being the "2D mini-boss/boss" in most 2D mario games , but still have their own personalities.
The main reason they are alts is because Bowser Jr. moveset is fully based around the koopa clown car. So you could technically shove anyone in there , and it wouldn't change much. Also , Morton is twice as big as Junior , but he's litteraly the same size as Bowser Jr. Same goes to Iggy , the tallest Koopaling , who has the same size as Bowser Jr.

>fire emblem protagonists
>personality

In all seriousness though, there's way more that needs to go into personality than just their voice lines and their cosmetic animations. You can translate personality through their attacks and playstyle, and the ARMS characters (which, as a fighting game, would obviously have more emphasis on personality than a Mario game or a JRPG) would lose that key aspect if they were all just on a blank slate as a paper mask.

And one more side tangent: I have no clue where you got the "different idle animations or taunts" part from. All gender variants () have the same exact idle animation and taunt animation, the only MINOR differences being male Inkling's actual idle not having female Inkling's hip sway and the pose on Byleth's down-taunt (or whichever taunt it is) having the hand pose being different due to male Byleth's lack of br00bies, but those are such minute changes that don't do anything to the actual personality of the singular character, which stays the same regardless (and yes, different voice lines do NOTHING to change the personality of any of the Koopalings)

 

[Spatulo]

>fire emblem protagonists
>personality

In all seriousness though, there's way more that needs to go into personality than just their voice lines and their cosmetic animations. You can translate personality through their attacks and playstyle, and the ARMS characters (which, as a fighting game, would obviously have more emphasis on personality than a Mario game or a JRPG) would lose that key aspect if they were all just on a blank slate as a paper mask.

And one more side tangent: I have no clue where you got the "different idle animations or taunts" part from. All gender variants () have the same exact idle animation and taunt animation, the only MINOR differences being male Inkling's actual idle not having female Inkling's hip sway and the pose on Byleth's down-taunt (or whichever taunt it is) having the hand pose being different due to male Byleth's lack of br00bies, but those are such minute changes that don't do anything to the actual personality of the singular character, which stays the same regardless (and yes, different voice lines do NOTHING to change the personality of any of the Koopalings)

It’s incredibly minor, but Byleth’s alts do have different idle stances

It’s significantly less different than how I’d expect Springman and Ribbon Girl to stand firm each other, but hey, maybe that’s why they needed to be delayed

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

It’s incredibly minor, but Byleth’s alts do have different idle stances

It’s significantly less different than how I’d expect Springman and Ribbon Girl to stand firm each other, but hey, maybe that’s why they needed to be delayed

Even then it's such a minute change that hardly affects gameplay. Same with them having slightly different victory animations.

I just can't get behind the idea of the ARMS character being multiple characters jam-packed into alts. Each and every one of them have their own abilities, fighting styles, and personality and you lose all of that if they're relegated to model swaps. With the Koopalings at least they all have similar boss battles and shared goals, and you almost always see them together.

 

[Spatulo]

Even then it's such a minute change that hardly affects gameplay. Same with them having slightly different victory animations.

I just can't get behind the idea of the ARMS character being multiple characters jam-packed into alts. Each and every one of them have their own abilities, fighting styles, and personality and you lose all of that if they're relegated to model swaps. With the Koopalings at least they all have similar boss battles and shared goals, and you almost always see them together.

I would be much more concerned about characters having only their unique abilities in Smash if Ness and Lucas weren’t a thing. And Zelda. And I’m pretty sure Cloud’s throws are Tifa’s moves.

 

[Sigran101]

I would be much more concerned about characters having only their unique abilities in Smash if Ness and Lucas weren’t a thing. And Zelda. And I’m pretty sure Cloud’s throws are Tifa’s moves.

But that's all within the realm of a believable kit. Ness and Lucas use PSI attacks on the mother series and also in smash. Ness may not learn PSI fire in earthbound, but since he does have PSI powers, it doesn't seem abnormal to see him use it. Same with Robin and Nosferatu. And Zelda is a mage, but isn't seen fighting much, so they took some creative liberty, but all within the magic skillset she has. I don't recall Tifa using any of Cloud's throws, but he's a trained soldier so that kind of stuff is believable on him anyway.

Springman teleporting around with ninjutsu is a totally different story. These kinds things are completely outlandish as part of the character's kit.

 

[Spatulo]

But that's all within the realm of a believable kit. Ness and Lucas use PSI attacks on the mother series and also in smash. Ness may not learn PSI fire in earthbound, but since he does have PSI powers, it doesn't seem abnormal to see him use it. Same with Robin and Nosferatu. And Zelda is a mage, but isn't seen fighting much, so they took some creative liberty, but all within the magic skillset she has. I don't recall Tifa using any of Cloud's throws, but he's a trained soldier so that kind of stuff is believable on him anyway.

Springman teleporting around with ninjutsu is a totally different story. These kinds things are completely outlandish as part of the character's kit.

And that is a fair point, to which my only real response is that Ninjara’s teleport is the only major thing out of the “core four” ARMS characters that I couldn’t see the others doing. Ribbon Girl has like a million jumps, which I honestly wouldn’t anticipate her keeping even if she was the only rep, but everyone in Smash has at least one air jump. Min Min kicks, they all have feet. She does have the dragon arm thing though. Springman has... a comeback charge ability. He does also have that little burst thing, tbh I’m not entirely sure what that’s supposed to be anyway so why not let everyone do it. And then, yeah you’ve got Ninjara with the teleports. You could certainly just have him not teleport, but c’mon that’d be like Dark Samus not using Phazon tentacles or Donkey Kong not having a single move using a barrel.

 

[Droodle]

Yeah, I wouldn't really want a conglomerate of ARMS characters as 1 fighter. Each one has a unique gimmick, and their own personality/flair attached to them. Sure they could technically make the extended ARMS their only unique gimmick and give them a blank slate as a personality, but it wouldn't really respect the characters. It'd be like having Joker be a combination of Persona 3/4/5 protagonists instead of just Joker. Sure, if they suck out all the personality/uniqueness from Joker's move set it could technically work, but I doubt it would be as unique as just going all in on 1 of those characters. It works with Hero because all of them do the exact same thing in most games AND have no personality "attached" to their characters. It works with Bowser Jr. because the clown car contains the actual move set, while the koopalings just pilot it.

 

[SeanHicksArt]

Off topic question: Has there been any word on a Super Mario RPG remake from "insiders"?

It's been "speculated" about amongst a group of my friends that have worked/working in the industry, but wanted to see if it was more than just speculation : P

 

[Enigma735]

Every time I get a little worried about Geno, I keep this in mind. I have a nasty habit of being extremely pessimistic in order to keep my expectations low. Recently I’ve just been dreading June and expecting someone like Tifa or 2B to be added (not that those are bad characters mind you) and for Geno to once again be snuffed.

But in the back of my mind, that small amount of hope shines through, like Geno entering the doll in SMRPG. His mii costume’s still missing, things are looking good for him right now. It’s also comforting to know that I have a whole coalition of Geno fans I can always talk to as well, so it’s not like I’m going through this alone, which is great.

I’m placing my bets on #77, with Geno being a bombshell E3 reveal. I might be wrong but god I hope I’m right, for mine and everyone’s sake.

Man I know how you feel. I felt this exact same way with Banjo. Banjo was one of my most wanted characters and I knew he was always likely leading up to his reveal, and all the evidence made me convinced he was in, but I always had that occasional doubt that its probably too good to be true. But then all my worrying was for nothing when that magical moment happened at E3 2019. I do feel this same way with Geno right now. I think Geno is very likely and I do see the evidence that is their for him, but their is always that 10% of me that is filled with doubt. Right now, I am just hoping for the best, just like I had to do with Banjo.

 

[MisterMike]

Off topic question: Has there been any word on a Super Mario RPG remake from "insiders"?

It's been "speculated" about amongst a group of my friends that have worked/working in the industry, but wanted to see if it was more than just speculation : P

To my knowledge, no. There has been some info about a new Paper Mario game that goes back to the series' roots, though. Also there's this 3D fan remake that some guy is making:

 

[AceAttorney9000]

My two cents on the whole "the ARMS character will be a Bowser Jr./Hero-esque composite of multiple characters"...

• I think it's possible... whether or not they will do it remains to be seen, and whether or not it's a good idea is a matter of opinion, but at the very least, I think it's possible that the developers might go down this path, whether because they want to or because it's what Nintendo wants. I don't think it's as likely as just a single character simply because it's technically more work than necessary, but again, by itself I think it's a possibility.
• As for which characters, I see two possible combinations...
  • Spring Man and Ribbon Girl - The bare minimum I see for a composite character. They're both featured on the cover art and essentially function as the game's mascots, and their unique abilities (a comeback mechanic and multiple jumps) wouldn't be out of place for both characters to use.
  • Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min - This is assuming the developers are willing to go the extra mile to include not just the mascots, but also a couple fan favorites. Granted, this would require some tinkering to get all four characters into the same proportions, as well as a lot of work making their animations as unique as possible to ensure their personalities are as intact as can be... but considering Byleth has different idle poses for the two genders, I could see them taking the ARMS characters one step further and giving them unique idle poses, taunts, dodging animations, win screen animations and the like, even if gameplay-wise it's still essentially one character with four different skins.

 

[Droodle]

Off topic question: Has there been any word on a Super Mario RPG remake from "insiders"?

It's been "speculated" about amongst a group of my friends that have worked/working in the industry, but wanted to see if it was more than just speculation : P

Not really. A new paper mario has been rumored for a while, but nothing related to a Super Mario RPG remake.

I wouldn't really expect it either. Modern Square definitely has their hands full with all the work they're doing with FF7 getting more parts, more KH, more Nier, Asano team working on Bravely Default, FF 14, rumors of FF16 starting development, DQ 12, not to mention their "smaller" games too. Right now Square is too saturated to work on SMRPG, so unless Nintendo is solely responsible for a remake, it's hard to see a remake coming out soon (if ever).

 

[Let Geno Smash]

My two cents on the whole "the ARMS character will be a Bowser Jr./Hero-esque composite of multiple characters"...

• I think it's possible... whether or not they will do it remains to be seen, and whether or not it's a good idea is a matter of opinion, but at the very least, I think it's possible that the developers might go down this path, whether because they want to or because it's what Nintendo wants. I don't think it's as likely as just a single character simply because it's technically more work than necessary, but again, by itself I think it's a possibility.
• As for which characters, I see two possible combinations...
  • Spring Man and Ribbon Girl - The bare minimum I see for a composite character. They're both featured on the cover art and essentially function as the game's mascots, and their unique abilities (a comeback mechanic and multiple jumps) wouldn't be out of place for both characters to use.
  • Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min - This is assuming the developers are willing to go the extra mile to include not just the mascots, but also a couple fan favorites. Granted, this would require some tinkering to get all four characters into the same proportions, as well as a lot of work making their animations as unique as possible to ensure their personalities are as intact as can be... but considering Byleth has different idle poses for the two genders, I could see them taking the ARMS characters one step further and giving them unique idle poses, taunts, dodging animations, win screen animations and the like, even if gameplay-wise it's still essentially one character with four different skins.

I can see a hero situation, but different taunts, animations, etc i think it just so many difficult

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I would be much more concerned about characters having only their unique abilities in Smash if Ness and Lucas weren’t a thing. And Zelda. And I’m pretty sure Cloud’s throws are Tifa’s moves.

I know Ness and Lucas have none of their attacks, I have problems with that too. I don't want a retread of that with the ARMS character.

I never said it couldn't happen, I said I don't want it to happen.

 

[Spatulo]

I know Ness and Lucas have none of their attacks, I have problems with that too. I don't want a retread of that with the ARMS character.

I never said it couldn't happen, I said I don't want it to happen.

Ohhhh, well then that’s a whole different conversation yeah

 

[Enigma735]

I understand why some people don't think a four-in-one ARMS rep will work, but here is the thing. Yes, I have played ARMS before and I do understand they have certain abilities and gimmicks that set them apart from one another. HOWEVER, the main gimmick of ARMS itself is the fact that you can use long and extendable arms, and I think that is what Sakurai will focus on first and foremost with this ARMS rep. Also, most character-specific gimmicks in ARMS are also some of the gameplay elements of Smash. For example, Ribbon Girl's main gimmick in ARMS is that she can jump more then once, while every other character can only jump once. However, if someone who isn't Ribbon Girl gets included, they will have more then one jump because everyone in Smash has more then one jump.

Now about characters like Ninjara's teleport, and Min Min's dragon hand, I think Sakurai can easily make alts slightly different from one another. Yes, it hasn't happened yet, but whose to say Sakurai can't change alts? I can see Ninjara's teleport work as his rolling animation, while still being similar to the other alts. As for Min Min's dragon hand, most of the arms work the same way so again, it could just be a little animation difference.

I understand why people say an ARMS conglomerate can't work, but really I think Sakurai is mainly gonna focus on the main gimmick of ARMS itself, and character-specific gimmicks afterwards in the form of animations ect.

 

[Droodle]

Now about characters like Ninjara's teleport, and Min Min's dragon hand, I think Sakurai can easily make alts slightly different from one another. Yes, it hasn't happened yet, but whose to say Sakurai can't change alts? I can see Ninjara's teleport work as his rolling animation, while still being similar to the other alts. As for Min Min's dragon hand, most of the arms work the same way so again, it could just be a little animation difference.

You just described echoes. At that point, they're just adding more workload to 1 DLC fighter when they could move on to the second one. Sure the main gimmick of ARMS is the arms themselves, but each character has a unique identity that is also equally built around their animations and special abilities that is exclusive to only them in that game.

Spring Man: Probably the safest bet for Nintendo to go with. He would probably have a counter, and a Terry like passive where he gains a massive boost after reaching 100%. Probably a mid weight with slow powerful attacks and a decent at best recovery.

Ribbon Girl: Air Dashes, and Multiple jumps. Sure everyone is Smash has a double-jump, and we could expect an ARMS character to have a double-jump; but Ribbon-girl would have even higher emphasis on a aerial game then any other ARMS character. You can't really give Spring-man 3+ jumps and air dashes just so he can fit Ribbon-girl as an alt.

Min-min: Having the dragon arm, probably related to a Cloud-esque limit bar. Charging it up gives you an immense boost in damage and range, and she will naturally have a higher emphasis on kicking compared to other ARMS characters.

Ninjara: Probably going to be the fastest out of all the ARMS characters. Likely lightweight with weaker hits focusing more on teleporting in and out of combat. Wouldn't have the same aerial game as Ribbon-girl, and would lack the dragon arm and permanent charge of both Spring-man and Min-min.

Sure you could just have the extended ARMS be their only game-play focus, but that doesn't "properly" represent each individual character. You can't really combine all their different play styles and nuance into one character either. And you can't have alts/echoes with different mechanics because that would require unique frame data for each of these characters due to their "uniqueness".

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Now about characters like Ninjara's teleport, and Min Min's dragon hand, I think Sakurai can easily make alts slightly different from one another. Yes, it hasn't happened yet, but whose to say Sakurai can't change alts? I can see Ninjara's teleport work as his rolling animation, while still being similar to the other alts. As for Min Min's dragon hand, most of the arms work the same way so again, it could just be a little animation difference.

At that point why not just make them all echoes?

 

[Sigran101]

You just described echoes. At that point, they're just adding more workload to 1 DLC fighter when they could move on to the second one. Sure the main gimmick of ARMS is the arms themselves, but each character has a unique identity that is also equally built around their animations and special abilities that is exclusive to only them in that game.

Spring Man: Probably the safest bet for Nintendo to go with. He would probably have a counter, and a Terry like passive where he gains a massive boost after reaching 100%. Probably a mid weight with slow powerful attacks and a decent at best recovery.

Ribbon Girl: Air Dashes, and Multiple jumps. Sure everyone is Smash has a double-jump, and we could expect an ARMS character to have a double-jump; but Ribbon-girl would have even higher emphasis on a aerial game then any other ARMS character. You can't really give Spring-man 3+ jumps and air dashes just so he can fit Ribbon-girl as an alt.

Min-min: Having the dragon arm, probably related to a Cloud-esque limit bar. Charging it up gives you an immense boost in damage and range, and she will naturally have a higher emphasis on kicking compared to other ARMS characters.

Ninjara: Probably going to be the fastest out of all the ARMS characters. Likely lightweight with weaker hits focusing more on teleporting in and out of combat. Wouldn't have the same aerial game as Ribbon-girl, and would lack the dragon arm and permanent charge of both Spring-man and Min-min.

Sure you could just have the extended ARMS be their only game-play focus, but that doesn't "properly" represent each individual character. You can't really combine all their different play styles and nuance into one character either. And you can't have alts/echoes with different mechanics because that would require unique frame data for each of these characters due to their "uniqueness".

So much this. I really don't understand why people think the extendable arms are the only feature that matters.

 

[axel_]

Off topic question: Has there been any word on a Super Mario RPG remake from "insiders"?

It's been "speculated" about amongst a group of my friends that have worked/working in the industry, but wanted to see if it was more than just speculation : P

It's something I would expect if this "Super Mario All-Stars 2" with remasters of all the best 3D Mario games does happen, since SMRPG was pretty much the actual first 3D Mario game.

 

[QQS]

What about this splash-art text? I just came with it today. papagenos Fatmanonice

Credits to the artist of the photo please, I just added my own text on it.

GENO FALLS LIKE A STAR!

 

[MisterMike]

View attachment 270554

What about this splash-art text? I just came with it today. papagenos Fatmanonice

Credits to the artist of the photo please, I just added my own text on it.

GENO FALLS LIKE A STAR!

I'm partial to "GENO GIVES IT A WHIRL!" myself.

 

[HudU]

I know this is odd coming out of nowhere but can I just say, I feel like the people in the Geno community and the people on this thread in specific are genuine down to earth people that are just passionate about a game they love. I haven't seen a single negative person in this community, and even those that are negative or pessimistic turn out to have a bright side anyway. And I want to thank you guys for that. Being accepting, and nice to everyone that joins. Thank you : )

 

[super88cloud]

I know this is odd coming out of nowhere but can I just say, I feel like the people in the Geno community and the people on this thread in specific are genuine down to earth people that are just passionate about a game they love. I haven't seen a single negative person in this community, and even those that are negative or pessimistic turn out to have a bright side anyway. And I want to thank you guys for that. Being accepting, and nice to everyone that joins. Thank you : )

You weren´t here when Byleth got revealed...

 

[Loliko YnT]

All I'm going to say is that the core concept of ARMS is a ***** to balance in Smash , and I don't see them putting characters gimmicks on top of it , it would be a balancing nightmare . On top of that , I could totally see Nintendo make us speculate about who could be in , and at the E3 , we got a reveal trailer with the mascots and MWs ARMS rep appearing one by one with their tagline , so they please the majority of people by giving spotlight to each character.

But at this rate , i feel like I'm running in circles with that subject , so I just prefer to drop it. Just know that Sakurai didn't said that an ARMS character was complicated to implement in Smash for nothing.

『スマブラSP』に『ARMS』の新ファイターが参戦することが発表されました。
制作依頼は受けたものの、『ARMS』らしさをしっかり出しながら大乱闘のルール、バランスにまとめるのはかなり難しい課題ですね。いままでに無い戦法を持つファイターを目指します。 https://t.co/bXyIPrDn20

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 26, 2020

(I don't want to sound rude or anything , but I feel like this point is extremely overlooked in speculation)

---

Have some cute Geno fan-arts to lighten up the mood.

just a little boy having fun! #smrpg #geno #mallow pic.twitter.com/hYND4inEaJ

— 🌞 skishie 🧃TEAM STARDUST (@_skishie) February 29, 2020

finally finished it !! happy late #MAR10Day :D! pic.twitter.com/9D5JHW7k6U

— 🌞 skishie 🧃TEAM STARDUST (@_skishie) March 14, 2020

It would be cool to have Luigi as a secret partner in a potential SMRPG remake. He could have a moveset based on his abilities from Mario and Luigi , and Luigi's Mansion. Or heck , if we get crazy , he could have special attacks he could do in tandem with Mario.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I think a "hero"-like Arms rep might be one of those things that might be hard to imagine until you actually see it played out in front of you. I think it could work but then that's moreso because I think Sakurai is a wizard and have learned not to doubt him.

All I'm going to say is that the core concept of ARMS is a ***** to balance in Smash , and I don't see them putting characters gimmicks on top of it , it would be a balancing nightmare .

I can't see how Min Mins "gimmick" of kicking would be some sort of "balancing nightmare" though. (Can you even call it a gimmick?) To be fair I could see her kicking as part of her grabs if nothing else.

If I had to get guess I'd say this fighter has been so hard for Sakurai to balance because their reach is going to have to be pretty substantial or it'll look wrong. Like right now I think the longest reach a character has is the Belmonts with the whip right?....but I think even if the reach of the Arms character was a little longer than that it would still not be nearly long enough to look right.

This Arms character is going to really push the boat out in terms of physical reach. (and Arms characters are constantly punching halfway across the stage, it's not like it's a special move they just load up occasionally)

 

[Loliko YnT]

I think a "hero"-like Arms rep might be one of those things that might be hard to imagine until you actually see it played out in front of you. I think it could work but then that's moreso because I think Sakurai is a wizard and have learned not to doubt him.



I can't see how Min Mins "gimmick" of kicking would be some sort of "balancing nightmare" though. (Can you even call it a gimmick?) To be fair I could see her kicking as part of her grabs if nothing else.

If I had to get guess I'd say this fighter has been so hard for Sakurai to balance because their reach is going to have to be pretty substantial or it'll look wrong. Like right now I think the longest reach a character has is the Belmonts with the whip right?....but I think even if the reach of the Arms character was a little longer than that it would still not be nearly long enough to look right.

This Arms character is going to really push the boat out in terms of physical reach. (and Arms characters are constantly punching halfway across the stage, it's not like it's a special move they just load up occasionally)

Yeah , I can agree that some gimmicks could work if done well. I just think that stuff like Byte's robot dog , Helix dodges , and stuff like Ribbon Girl 4 jumps+dive-bomb would be too much , on top of their reach and customizable ARMS.

 

[Polarthief]

I can't see how Min Mins "gimmick" of kicking would be some sort of "balancing nightmare" though. (Can you even call it a gimmick?) To be fair I could see her kicking as part of her grabs if nothing else.

Or just give them all a typical DownB counter and/or reflect: Min-Min uses kicks while the others do something else like a counter-punch, assuming that is possible. I assume it is because if you can give different idle animations to costumes, why can't you give different attack animations with the same hit boxes? I haven't bothered to check, but does every single alt costume of Hero, the Koopalings, Joker, and the male/female variants of Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all have the *exact same* animations? Might be worth looking into. Anyway, make MM's kicks a bit higher up/the counter-punch for everyone else a bit lower. Using this logic, you can also fit Twintelle in since her hair can just loop down and attack lower when you throw a punch where the other characters' ARMS would normally be.

Honestly, with the balancing being that big of a deal, I don't see the ARMS rep (solo or not) to be that complex in the ways of character-specific gimmicks. Even if it's RG, I don't see her coming with 4 jumps. I do think we'll end up getting a Jr./Hero-style character using some of their gimmicks and some not. They'll likely keep Min-Min's counter (as said above) and Spring Man's low health (in Smash's case, high %) bonus. Ninjara might be able to keep his teleport when dodging while playing as his skin (it'll take the same time as a normal dodge; maybe he could appear as a puff of smoke during the time? TL;DR: It'll just be visuals) and perfect-blocking, and maybe they can give the fighter a second mid-air jump instead of the usual 2 to represent Ribbon Girl's jumps. I was gonna say to add an air-dash, but all the fighters have an air-dash so it doesn't really rep her at all. Alternatively, do they really need to "rep" her with an ability?

Yeah this sounds like a lot, but if the hitboxes are all the same and Ninjara's teleport still shows the direction he's going (so there's no clear advantage to pick him over the others), I really don't think it's that much of a... stretch... to see them pulling something like this off. When balancing is the issue, especially when you want to rep multiple characters with their own abilities, implement the ones you can put in easily and leave it up to visuals for the ones you can't.

Yeah , I can agree that some gimmicks could work if done well. I just think that stuff like Byte's robot dog , Helix dodges , and stuff like Ribbon Girl 4 jumps+dive-bomb would be too much , on top of their reach and customizable ARMS.

Dive-bomb maybe (DAir like Banjo-Kazooie), but there's no way the other stuff would work. Byte & Barq, even as a solo (well, solo+1) character, I just don't see happening because the balancing is hard enough. Now you have a companion that also attacks on its own? That's a nightmare waiting to happen.

 

[Sigran101]

Or just give them all a typical DownB counter and/or reflect: Min-Min uses kicks while the others do something else like a counter-punch, assuming that is possible. I assume it is because if you can give different idle animations to costumes, why can't you give different attack animations with the same hit boxes? I haven't bothered to check, but does every single alt costume of Hero, the Koopalings, Joker, and the male/female variants of Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all have the *exact same* animations? Might be worth looking into. Anyway, make MM's kicks a bit higher up/the counter-punch for everyone else a bit lower. Using this logic, you can also fit Twintelle in since her hair can just loop down and attack lower when you throw a punch where the other characters' ARMS would normally be.

Honestly, with the balancing being that big of a deal, I don't see the ARMS rep (solo or not) to be that complex in the ways of character-specific gimmicks. Even if it's RG, I don't see her coming with 4 jumps. I do think we'll end up getting a Jr./Hero-style character using some of their gimmicks and some not. They'll likely keep Min-Min's counter (as said above) and Spring Man's low health (in Smash's case, high %) bonus. Ninjara might be able to keep his teleport when dodging while playing as his skin (it'll take the same time as a normal dodge; maybe he could appear as a puff of smoke during the time? TL;DR: It'll just be visuals) and perfect-blocking, and maybe they can give the fighter a second mid-air jump instead of the usual 2 to represent Ribbon Girl's jumps. I was gonna say to add an air-dash, but all the fighters have an air-dash so it doesn't really rep her at all. Alternatively, do they really need to "rep" her with an ability?

Yeah this sounds like a lot, but if the hitboxes are all the same and Ninjara's teleport still shows the direction he's going (so there's no clear advantage to pick him over the others), I really don't think it's that much of a... stretch... to see them pulling something like this off. When balancing is the issue, especially when you want to rep multiple characters with their own abilities, implement the ones you can put in easily and leave it up to visuals for the ones you can't.



Dive-bomb maybe (DAir like Banjo-Kazooie), but there's no way the other stuff would work. Byte & Barq, even as a solo (well, solo+1) character, I just don't see happening because the balancing is hard enough. Now you have a companion that also attacks on its own? That's a nightmare waiting to happen.

Oh please no more down b counters. This is exactly why I don't like the hero idea. You'd have to make the moveset more generic to fit everything in one mold.

Also this "ARMS character being complicated" stuff is not evidence that they won't include character gimmicks. Sakurai didn't say the extendable arms on their own was super complicated, he said the character overall was complicated. That could just as easily be because it has extendable arms and character gimmicks.

You're also showing your lack of knowledge of ARMS again with your down air suggestion. The "divebomb" they were referring to is not an attack. Part of Ribbongirl's kit is that she can do a super fastfall. She's 100% mobility based, and that's why it would be really weird to see her have the same mobility as Springman who would likely not be very agile.

 

[Polarthief]

Oh please no more down b counters. This is exactly why I don't like the hero idea. You'd have to make the moveset more generic to fit everything in one mold.

Is it that "generic" when it's taking bits and pieces from the fighters though?

Also this "ARMS character being complicated" stuff is not evidence that they won't include character gimmicks.

I never said it would be, just that if we did end up getting a Hero-style character, that they wouldn't.

You're also showing your lack of knowledge of ARMS again with your down air suggestion. The "divebomb" they were referring to is not an attack. Part of Ribbongirl's kit is that she can do a super fastfall.

I mean, that's pretty presumptuous of you. I'm more than aware of the dive bomb not having an attack portion in ARMS (I did main her after all), but ARMS and Smash are completely different games and if the dive bomb didn't have some kind of splash attack at the end of it, I don't think it would translate as well in Smash. How would you even pull it off if it didn't attack at all? Just pressing down while in the air? It's quite a fast fall, to the point where I think it might even be overpowered (especially as what's likely to be the longest-range character in the game, even longer than Belmonts), and as a DAir, it wouldn't make sense without some kind of attack at the end of it (likely with a nerf to the speed to compensate; in the end it would be similar to Banjo-Kazooie's dive bomb). Anyway, that was also a way to "rep" RG in a Hero-style character and it was just an idea, not "oh this totally has to happen".

 

[Deleted member]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still don't understand why people think that the characters have to be translated perfectly into the game to be accurately represented in a 4-in-1 situation. The core mechanic of arms is that the guys with slinky arms punch and grab each other from three city blocks away. That's all it takes to accurately represent any of the characters, playstyle be damned. We have four extremely popular characters, one of which is the true face of the game and another who is arguably the face of the game, plus the most popular male character and the most popular female character, all of which share the same body type. That's what it takes to be an echo fighter and that was good enough for Hero. Bowser Jr is even more of a stretch because the Koopalings have been presented to us in the past as having very obvious differences that carry over between games, such as Morton's extreme weight, but they were all wrapped up into the same character.

Characters are "accurate" to their games in a way that shows the spirit of the game more than the full accuracy of the gameplay. For instance, people love to talk about how Mega Man is extremely faithful to his games because he jumps and shoots and can shoot while walking, but they ignore the fact that he can't infinitely produce special weapons and shouldn't have Rush when the rest of his specials are based on Mega Man 2. Being too true to the way the character plays in their home game ends up making characters like Robin and Pichu. Imagine Little Mac losing his KO punch meter before it's even charged, just for getting hit, (alternatively, imagine him never losing it until he gets hit, even after it's used) or Joker being able to summon Arsene on command but only to change his magic attacks and never physically benefit him, or Young Link not being able to block fire attacks because his shield is flammable. Lest we forget, Inkling takes damage while in the water. People love to think about all the positive changes some characters would get from having better references or being more true to their game, but no one wants to admit that across the board a lot of characters would suffer for it. I think you get the idea.

Maybe I'm not giving ARMS enough credit when I say it, but to represent the game, just punch someone from across the room with fists that do different things. You don't have to vanish in a puff of smoke when you roll, or jump 4 times, or whatever else these people do individually.