Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Polarthief]

Yeah I know I was joking lol if we do get an ARMS rep, I expect it to be a four-in-one character like Hero, consisting of Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Min Min

I honestly think that's what it'll be. I'd really love to see Twintelle though, but there's no way she'd work for as an alt costume compared to the others. I'd still be pretty stocked with that though as Ribbon Girl is my second favorite, and all fanrules regarding Spirits, Costumes, and ATs get shattered. Plus they get both the main mascots in there along with the 2 most popular picks (Min-Min and Ninjara taking 1st and 2nd [respectively] in the Crash Bash).

Y'know, thinking about it, this would be a really great way to kick off FP2 that not only costs them nothing in licensing (since it's a first party pick), but also smashes (haha) all the fanrules, promotes a franchise they clearly want to revive, and also pushes the top 2 favorite characters, along with the mascots. It's genius really, if that's what ends up happening, but it can definitely blow up in their face if they do something dumb.

 

[MisterMike]

View attachment 270434
Isn’t this pic amazing? (Credits to the artist please)

Geno joins the battle!

And then he puts the whole puppet on his face ass-first.

At this point, people are less trying to make rules to help with theorizing and are more so theorizing to help fit their rules.

>Implying it wasn't always that way

 

[axel_]

Yeah I know I was joking lol if we do get an ARMS rep, I expect it to be a four-in-one character like Hero, consisting of Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Min Min

I honestly think that's what it'll be. I'd really love to see Twintelle though, but there's no way she'd work for as an alt costume compared to the others. I'd still be pretty stocked with that though as Ribbon Girl is my second favorite, and all fanrules regarding Spirits, Costumes, and ATs get shattered. Plus they get both the main mascots in there along with the 2 most popular picks (Min-Min and Ninjara taking 1st and 2nd [respectively] in the Crash Bash).

I'm far less inclined to believe so.

Look at the last two alt-sharing Fighters: Bowser Jr & the Koopalings, and the Heroes. The reason they're all alternate costumes, aside from the fandoms behind these variations, is that it's easy with their ambiguity in combat. Even with their wands, the Koopalings all have similar fights, and Dragon Quest's Heroes have shared moves across all their appearances.

To paraphrase from NantenJex on this video, this context doesn't fit with the proposition for Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min Min and Ninjara. A lot of their attacks and skills can't really happen on other characters in-game, some even would be really stylistically clashing (Why is Ribbon Girl vanishing like a ninja?), and I feel like Sora Ltd. would prefer to represent these abilities separately.
Like he says. it would be like asking why Ryu doesn't have Akuma, Sakura, Dan, Gouken, etc. as alts. Sure, on the surface they may look similar and have the same fighting style, but they all have so many unique moves, vastly different stats/mechanics, and drastically separate personalities (all unlike Hero or Koopalings) that it would be a disservice to their individuality.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I'm far less inclined to believe so.

Look at the last two alt-sharing Fighters: Bowser Jr & the Koopalings, and the Heroes. The reason they're all alternate costumes, aside from the fandoms behind these variations, is that it's easy with their ambiguity in combat. Even with their wands, the Koopalings all have similar fights, and Dragon Quest's Heroes have shared moves across all their appearances.

To paraphrase from NantenJex on this video, this context doesn't fit with the proposition for Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min Min and Ninjara. A lot of their attacks and skills can't really happen on other characters in-game, some even would be really stylistically clashing (Why is Ribbon Girl vanishing like a ninja?), and I feel like Sora Ltd. would prefer to represent these abilities separately.
Like he says. it would be like asking why Ryu doesn't have Akuma, Sakura, Dan, Gouken, etc. as alts. Sure, on the surface they may look similar and have the same fighting style, but they all have so many unique moves, vastly different stats/mechanics, and drastically separate personalities (all unlike Hero or Koopalings) that it would be a disservice to their individuality.

I would argue that the mere fact of having punches/grabs with such distances would already fill a good chunk of the moveset , and be hard to balance. On top of that , while every character has their ARMS of predilection , you can equip any ARMS to any character , you just have to unlock them.

Character specific gimmicks (SM comeback mechanic , RG multiple jump/air-dodges , and so on) would be hard to balance if they are on top of the character's range with their attack.
Having a special that change your current ARMS would be a lot already , considering they all affect your speed , have different arcs , and different elements tied to them. Or they could make it that each attack is tied to one specific ARMS.
(Here's a list of all the ARMS btw : https://i.imgur.com/yTsT16P.png )

My point is : The universal mechanics of ARMS are already very hard to translate in Smash without being broken ; No character in Smash have melee attacks that could reach you accross Final Destination. (Some would say the Belmonts , but they have a weapon and projectiles , it's not a Melee punch)
On top of that , you already have a very long list of ARMS to choose from with ton of different effects. (Straight forward punching glove , shield , a punch that separate in 3 smaller attacks , a big blue ball that bounce on the ground and cover your screen in paint , ect...)
Balancing the simple universal mechanics of ARMS in Smash is already very complicated , so if you have to add on top of that character specific gimmicks , it's going to be a nightmare.

The universal mechanics of ARMS are enough to make a full moveset in Smash in my opinion , hence why you could have alts of other characters , as long as they have similar proportions to fit the hitboxes/hurtboxes and what not. They proved that different alts can have different idle animations or taunts () , so they can go the extra step and give each character their personnality thanks to that. (They could even give every alt theur 2 OG Victory screens from ARMS)
They proved with Joker that they can heavily tweek victory screens (FS victory screen , changing the environnement around him during his victory animation) , and they have a DLC budget , so I think they can do that.

Also , slight nitpick :
All the koopalings have different personnalities. Just play any of the RPGs , watch any of the Mario cartoons , or just something as simple as the first manuals of SMB3/W. They however all fit a role , being the "2D mini-boss/boss" in most 2D mario games , but still have their own personnalities.
The main reason they are alts is because Bowser Jr. moveset is fully based around the koopa clown car. So you could technically shove anyone in there , and it wouldn't change much. Also , Morton is twice as big as Junior , but he's litteraly the same size as Bowser Jr. Same goes to Iggy , the tallest Koopaling , who has the same size as Bowser Jr.
Tweaking body sizes is fully possible , but I agree that some ARMS characters would be wack if they did (Helix with his gooey body wouldn't fit , as an example).

But yeah , junior prove to me that you can take the basics of something to represent them , and add different costumes to give extra fanservice.

 

[PatPrime]

I would argue that the mere fact of having punches/grabs with such distances would already fill a good chunk of the moveset , and be hard to balance. On top of that , while every character has their ARMS of predilection , you can equip any ARMS to any character , you just have to unlock them.

Character specific gimmicks (SM comeback mechanic , RG multiple jump/air-dodges , and so on) would be hard to balance if they are on top of the character's range with their attack.
Having a special that change your current ARMS would be a lot already , considering they all affect your speed , have different arcs , and different elements tied to them. Or they could make it that each attack is tied to one specific ARMS.
(Here's a list of all the ARMS btw : https://i.imgur.com/yTsT16P.png )

My point is : The universal mechanics of ARMS are already very hard to translate in Smash without being broken ; No character in Smash have melee attacks that could reach you accross Final Destination. (Some would say the Belmonts , but they have a weapon and projectiles , it's not a Melee punch)
On top of that , you already have a very long list of ARMS to choose from with ton of different effects. (Straight forward punching glove , shield , a punch that separate in 3 smaller attacks , a big blue ball that bounce on the ground and cover your screen in paint , ect...)
Balancing the simple universal mechanics of ARMS in Smash is already very complicated , so if you have to add on top of that character specific gimmicks , it's going to be a nightmare.

The universal mechanics of ARMS are enough to make a full moveset in Smash in my opinion , hence why you could have alts of other characters , as long as they have similar proportions to fit the hitboxes/hurtboxes and what not. They proved that different alts can have different idle animations or taunts () , so they can go the extra step and give each character their personnality thanks to that. (They could even give every alt theur 2 OG Victory screens from ARMS)
They proved with Joker that they can heavily tweek victory screens (FS victory screen , changing the environnement around him during his victory animation) , and they have a DLC budget , so I think they can do that.

Also , slight nitpick :
All the koopalings have different personnalities. Just play any of the RPGs , watch any of the Mario cartoons , or just something as simple as the first manuals of SMB3/W. They however all fit a role , being the "2D mini-boss/boss" in most 2D mario games , but still have their own personnalities.
The main reason they are alts is because Bowser Jr. moveset is fully based around the koopa clown car. So you could technically shove anyone in there , and it wouldn't change much. Also , Morton is twice as big as Junior , but he's litteraly the same size as Bowser Jr. Same goes to Iggy , the tallest Koopaling , who has the same size as Bowser Jr.
Tweaking body sizes is fully possible , but I agree that some ARMS characters would be wack if they did (Helix with his gooey body wouldn't fit , as an example).

But yeah , junior prove to me that you can take the basics of something to represent them , and add different costumes to give extra fanservice.

Yeah, what this person said. Yes, each character has their own special abilities but I bet trying to balance long range punches and moves for multiple attacks is already hard enough.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high. It's the easiest way to outdo themselves and everyone knows it. It's not a matter of if but when and who. If you really think it, both seasons of DLC so far was repeated instances of outdoing themselves. Think about how many fan rules were knee capped with the addition of Mewtwo, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo and then think about how this continued with Plant, Joker, Hero, and Banjo. You really don't think they're going to do this again for Season 2? We've talked about the logistics of these characters to death but think of what a benchmark Hero and Banjo left based on everything that had to be done to get them in. People really think that Nintendo's done with subverting expectations for this game? Honestly, aside from straight up non video game characters, promotions are basically the final frontier that they really haven't touched yet.

 

[Polarthief]

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high. It's the easiest way to outdo themselves and everyone knows it. It's not a matter of if but when and who. If you really think it, both seasons of DLC so far was repeated instances of outdoing themselves. Think about how many fan rules were knee capped with the addition of Mewtwo, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo and then think about how this continued with Plant, Joker, Hero, and Banjo. You really don't think they're going to do this again for Season 2? We've talked about the logistics of these characters to death but think of what a benchmark Hero and Banjo left based on everything that had to be done to get them in. People really think that Nintendo's done with subverting expectations for this game? Honestly, aside from straight up non video game characters, promotions are basically the final frontier that they really haven't touched yet.

But this is also what greatly terrifies me regarding the ARMS rep, if they somehow swoop around promotions to have such a bad opening pick, intentionally dodging all the top favorites and the 2 mascots, for what? What would be the reason behind it? There'd be no good reason I can think of to do something like that.

Instead, open up with not just promotions that break all the fanrules, but also delivers on fan favorites. It leaves pretty much everyone happy except the "add Twintelle purely because we need a person of color" crowd (which I don't disagree with but that's a silly reason to put her in. You should put her in because people [myself included] really like her)... or y'know the people who think "ARMS bad". I'd personally still be happy with RG getting the spot/being in the Bowser Jr. pile of alts, even if TT ends up being the odd one out (or maybe they'll put her in too and have 3 alt costumes; idk how they'd manage to get her in due to her hair, but man I'd be thrilled over that).

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high. It's the easiest way to outdo themselves and everyone knows it. It's not a matter of if but when and who. If you really think it, both seasons of DLC so far was repeated instances of outdoing themselves. Think about how many fan rules were knee capped with the addition of Mewtwo, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo and then think about how this continued with Plant, Joker, Hero, and Banjo. You really don't think they're going to do this again for Season 2? We've talked about the logistics of these characters to death but think of what a benchmark Hero and Banjo left based on everything that had to be done to get them in. People really think that Nintendo's done with subverting expectations for this game? Honestly, aside from straight up non video game characters, promotions are basically the final frontier that they really haven't touched yet.

I kinda disagree on that. If the ARMS character isn't already present in the game in some form, then that means they really went out of their way just because of some jpegs. Spring Man is one thing but to ignore Min-Min entirely is another.

If that happens, then im 99% sure that the rest of the Pass will be third party.................again.

Sure, there could be a Byleth situation where the character (or game of origin) in question is not represented in Smash in any way already, but i honestly can't come up with any Nintendo fighter that could fit this criteria outisde of...........i don't know, Startropics? (i would like to see Mike Jones, but it is more likely that Chile will win the Fifa World Cup before that happens) i mean all the notorious Nintendo series and characters are spirits, and those who aren't.........well, tree making sound and nobody hears it kind of thing if you know what i mean.

Don't get me wrong, i could still see some newcomers breaking old trends. Like a Western Character that has barely any japanese appeal like Doom Guy, or a Visual Novel character like Saber or Phoenix Wright, etc. or Reimu/Quote finally breaking the Indie Curse etc

But ARMS going out of their way to ignore their 5 most popular and prominent characters just because of spirits? That would be very telling in my eyes.

EDIT: Oh and yeah i guess Degalia Lost could be a thing too. I mean i think it's Nintendo Owned so there's one Nintendo series that could be in Smash, i guess?

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high. It's the easiest way to outdo themselves and everyone knows it. It's not a matter of if but when and who. If you really think it, both seasons of DLC so far was repeated instances of outdoing themselves. Think about how many fan rules were knee capped with the addition of Mewtwo, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo and then think about how this continued with Plant, Joker, Hero, and Banjo. You really don't think they're going to do this again for Season 2? We've talked about the logistics of these characters to death but think of what a benchmark Hero and Banjo left based on everything that had to be done to get them in. People really think that Nintendo's done with subverting expectations for this game? Honestly, aside from straight up non video game characters, promotions are basically the final frontier that they really haven't touched yet.

That is right, No western reps, no thropies, no characters with a extremely low nintendo history, no characters with realistics guns, etc

I kinda disagree on that. If the ARMS character isn't already present in the game in some form, then that means they really went out of their way just because of some jpegs. Spring Man is one thing but to ignore Min-Min entirely is another.

If that happens, then im 99% sure that the rest of the Pass will be third party.................again.

Sure, there could be a Byleth situation where the character (or game of origin) in question is not represented in Smash in any way already, but i honestly can't come up with any Nintendo fighter that could fit this criteria outisde of...........i don't know, Startropics? (i would like to see Mike Jones, but it is more likely that Chile will win the Fifa World Cup before that happens) i mean all the notorious Nintendo series and characters are spirits, and those who aren't.........well, tree making sound and nobody hears it kind of thing if you know what i mean.

Don't get me wrong, i could still see some newcomers breaking old trends. Like a Western Character that has barely any japanese appeal like Doom Guy, or a Visual Novel character like Saber or Phoenix Wright, etc. or Reimu/Quote finally breaking the Indie Curse etc

But ARMS going out of their way to ignore their 5 most popular and prominent characters just because of spirits? That would be very telling in my eyes.

EDIT: Oh and yeah i guess Degalia Lost could be a thing too. I mean i think it's Nintendo Owned so there's one Nintendo series that could be in Smash, i guess?

Yeah, i also think we should expect something from Cygames,
One day I heard that Nintendo has 5% of its shares, so I think they definitely want to add something to them in Smash.

 

[Fatmanonice]

But this is also what greatly terrifies me regarding the ARMS rep, if they somehow swoop around promotions to have such a bad opening pick, intentionally dodging all the top favorites and the 2 mascots, for what? What would be the reason behind it? There'd be no good reason I can think of to do something like that.

Instead, open up with not just promotions that break all the fanrules, but also delivers on fan favorites. It leaves pretty much everyone happy except the "add Twintelle purely because we need a person of color" crowd (which I don't disagree with but that's a silly reason to put her in. You should put her in because people [myself included] really like her)... or y'know the people who think "ARMS bad". I'd personally still be happy with RG getting the spot/being in the Bowser Jr. pile of alts, even if TT ends up being the odd one out (or maybe they'll put her in too and have 3 alt costumes; idk how they'd manage to get her in due to her hair, but man I'd be thrilled over that).

I've said it before but the lengths they would have to go to avoid the ARMS rep being a promotion is pretty crazy. 5 of the 10 starting characters are spirits with 2 being the mascots on the front of the box and the other 3 regularly cleaning house in popularity contests. Those other 5 don't even really register to non-ARMS fans. Byte and Barq and Helix are a little too unique for their own good, Mechanica's whole backstory is that she's obsessed with Ribbon Girl, and Kid Cobra and Master Mummy just kind of exist. Not going with Springman, Ribbongirl, Min-Min, Twintelle, or Ninjara would just be cynical for the sake of cynicism, which would be pointless given this is paid DLC. Even if something isn't what people asked for, you still want people to want it. There's also the simple concept that you don't want a character at the very front of the pass that will totally torpedo peoples' enthusiasm right off the bat and it already being an ARMS character has put Season 2 on thin ice for a lot of people.

 

[Enigma735]

Now that I think about it, every DLC character so far has broken some sort of fan-rule.
Plant: Broke the fan-rule of no mook or generic enemy can't become playable.
Joker: Broke the fan-rule of must have some sort of relation to Nintendo.
Hero: Broke the fan-rule of a character or franchise that is only popular in one country can't get included in Smash.
Banjo: Broke two rules actually. A character cannot come from a Western franchise and cannot come from a hardware competitor to Nintendo.
Terry: Broke the fan-rule of a character cannot have been a guest character in some other game shortly before getting included in Smash.
Byleth: Broke the fan-rule of first-parties are not eligible for the Fighters Pass.

And with this ARMS rep, its very possible, and honestly likely, they will break the Spirits Deconfirm rule. I'm not too sure about the assist trophy rule being broken, but at this rate, anything is possible with the amount of rules Sakurai has been breaking recently. I have no doubt in my mind that Volume 2 of the Fighters Pass will break as much fan-rules as possible.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

I've said it before but the lengths they would have to go to avoid the ARMS rep being a promotion is pretty crazy. 5 of the 10 starting characters are spirits with 2 being the mascots on the front of the box and the other 3 regularly cleaning house in popularity contests. Those other 5 don't even really register to non-ARMS fans. Byte and Barq and Helix are a little too unique for their own good, Mechanica's whole backstory is that she's obsessed with Ribbon Girl, and Kid Cobra and Master Mummy just kind of exist. Not going with Springman, Ribbongirl, Min-Min, Twintelle, or Ninjara would just be cynical for the sake of cynicism, which would be pointless given this is paid DLC. Even if something isn't what people asked for, you still want people to want it. There's also the simple concept that you don't want a character at the very front of the pass that will totally torpedo peoples' enthusiasm right off the bat and it already being an ARMS character has put Season 2 on thin ice for a lot of people.

In addition to what you mention about the bite and bark and helix gimmicks, that also applies in Misango. I feel that if it is not a promotion (Something that is sooooooooo hard to happen) it will be between Dr Coyle (For being the main villain), Max Brass (For being the one who best represents Arms of those who have no presence in Ultimate) or Helix (For be something sakurai would choose knowing how to work
PD: I just realized that the Arms characters that are not represented in smash are a *****

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Now that I think about it, every DLC character so far has broken some sort of fan-rule.
Joker: Broke the fan-rule of must have some sort of relation to Nintendo.

Honestly that rule was far more broken with Cloud than with Joker. (i mean, yeah FF was on Nintendo consoles but not FF7 at the time, which is the only game represented in Smash)

The problem with this fan-rule is that people that use this fan-rule will use any goalpost moving possible in order to make sure the rule still stand. Just watch as someone comes in and says "B-b-but Joker had a 3DS game!!!!11!!11!!"

The only way this rule will truly be borken in every way possible, it's if a character that has LITERALLY NEVER APPEARED IN A NINTENDO CONSOLE comes to Smash which is........unlikely for a variety of reasons.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I've said it before but the lengths they would have to go to avoid the ARMS rep being a promotion is pretty crazy. 5 of the 10 starting characters are spirits with 2 being the mascots on the front of the box and the other 3 regularly cleaning house in popularity contests. Those other 5 don't even really register to non-ARMS fans. Byte and Barq and Helix are a little too unique for their own good, Mechanica's whole backstory is that she's obsessed with Ribbon Girl, and Kid Cobra and Master Mummy just kind of exist. Not going with Springman, Ribbongirl, Min-Min, Twintelle, or Ninjara would just be cynical for the sake of cynicism, which would be pointless given this is paid DLC. Even if something isn't what people asked for, you still want people to want it. There's also the simple concept that you don't want a character at the very front of the pass that will totally torpedo peoples' enthusiasm right off the bat and it already being an ARMS character has put Season 2 on thin ice for a lot of people.

I think the best comparison would be if Ryu was an Assist Trophy and Chun Li, Ken, Guile, M.Bison, Akuma and Alex were spirits.

EDIT: Damn, i did a double post.

 

[Polarthief]

I've said it before but the lengths they would have to go to avoid the ARMS rep being a promotion is pretty crazy. 5 of the 10 starting characters are spirits with 2 being the mascots on the front of the box and the other 3 regularly cleaning house in popularity contests

Oh I'm aware of that as I remember you've said it before, I was just saying it would be worrying if they did end up swooping around them.

There's also the simple concept that you don't want a character at the very front of the pass that will totally torpedo peoples' enthusiasm right off the bat and it already being an ARMS character has put Season 2 on thin ice for a lot of people.

Exactly, which is why I don't think it'll be anyone but those main 5 (or those main 5 + 3 more if they went full Bowser Jr). If they don't want to overhype FP2 like they did with the first 2 Smash directs, then disappointing everyone with Kencineroar, then Min-Min would be a great solo pick since she's the most popular and only smashes the Spirits Deconfirm fanrule and nothing else.

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high.

^ this is what I was answering from your previous post. If they actually did swoop around all 5 of the spirits, honestly, that would be very terrifying for everyone hoping to get spirits or others promoted, even though I'm willing to bet we'll see at least 1 promotion (likely more, since Geno is in and all), but my point was that if they really went full shill mode, tossing aside all promotions and fan-favorites, then they're opening S2 with a worse-than-Byleth-level pick. This would be Urshifu-level of shilling, and the last thing you should do after having Byleth-shill is having Urshifu-levels of shill for your next season. It's why I think if they somehow, and I really doubt this but let's play out the hypothetical, somehow dodged all 5 of the Spirits, the fighter would for sure be Max Brass to at least spin it like he's a more important character (which he is; he's essentially the "behind-the-scenes" third mascot). It'd still be a shill pick, but I'd at least understand the logic behind it, much more than I would if they picked Byte & Barq, Lola Pop, or Springtron (or any of the remaining characters I didn't name). Even more shill would be if they picked an ARMS 2 character (which I also really doubt since we don't even know if there will for sure be an ARMS 2).

TL;DR: I'm agreeing with your logic of "it'd be really unlikely they'd dodge all 5 spirits", I'd just be worried what that means for the future, on the off chance it did happen. "Why would they do it?" would be the obvious question that comes to mind. If it was because Spirits actually do deconfirm, then we're just ****ed. If later a spirit does get promoted, then again, why did they ditch all the fan favorites for a way-less-popular character?

Hero: Broke the fan-rule of a character or franchise that is only popular in one country can't get included in Smash.

I guess we're just gonna pretend Marth and Roy don't count? Technically Earthbound too since practically no one knew what the Mother series was back in the SNES/N64 days. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the majority of the people here went "who's Ness?" when they saw him on Smash 64 or hell even Melee. Was definitely my first encounter of him (along with Capt. Falcon and Samus actually >.>).

 

[Enigma735]

Honestly that rule was far more broken with Cloud than with Joker. (i mean, yeah FF was on Nintendo consoles but not FF7 at the time, which is the only game represented in Smash)

The problem with this fan-rule is that people that use this fan-rule will use any goalpost moving possible in order to make sure the rule still stand. Just watch as someone comes in and says "B-b-but Joker had a 3DS game!!!!11!!11!!"

The only way this rule will truly be borken in every way possible, it's if a character that has LITERALLY NEVER APPEARED IN A NINTENDO CONSOLE comes to Smash which is........unlikely for a variety of reasons.

I have heard people say ridiculous stuff like that how Joker was included only because of the 3DS game, which is asinine if people actually think he wasn't included because Persona 5. However, while I do agree characters like Master Chief, Kratos and Gordon Freeman are VERY unlikely, I still wouldn't say they have a 0% chance with how much rules Sakurai has broke.

I guess we're just gonna pretend Marth and Roy don't count? Technically Earthbound too since practically no one knew what the Mother series was back in the SNES/N64 days. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the majority of the people here went "who's Ness?" when they saw him on Smash 64 or hell even Melee. Was definitely my first encounter of him (along with Capt. Falcon and Samus actually >.>).

Exactly. I have heard people use that argument for a Dragon Quest character and I never thought it made sense lol

 

[Polarthief]

Exactly. I have heard people use that argument for a Dragon Quest character and I never thought it made sense lol

Especially when DQ in the West pre-DQ11 on Switch was significantly more well-known than FE in the West during Melee days. Virtually no one knew who the heck those characters were, even less than Ness on Smash 64 (barely anyone knew who that was either).

Hero broke a grand total of 0 rules. They weren't even the first "DLC can be a Bowser Jr.-style" character since Corrin was that with both Male and Female variants (it doesn't matter if the character is barely different, a male and female variant are still two different characters).

PS: It's nuts to think that 2 out of 5 of our FP1 DLC were Bowser Jr. style characters. 40% of FP1 was Jr.-styled. Makes me think ARMS being another one isn't all that unlikely!

 

[domriver]

I guess we're just gonna pretend Marth and Roy don't count? Technically Earthbound too since practically no one knew what the Mother series was back in the SNES/N64 days. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the majority of the people here went "who's Ness?" when they saw him on Smash 64 or hell even Melee. Was definitely my first encounter of him (along with Capt. Falcon and Samus actually >.>).

Probably just meant for DLC Purposes not base Roster. Any rate. I think though you are correct for the alot of people on the fact that when Smash 64 first came out. I also said whos this Ness? Then discovered Earth Bound. Have i had seen it before? Probably yes but didn't pay any attention to it. Fast forward to present day you have a lots of fans asking for a Remake/ New Earthbound. I don't blame them. I want to see Earthbound on the switch.

 

[RocksteadyBebop]

Those other 5 don't even really register to non-ARMS fans. Byte and Barq and Helix are a little too unique for their own good, Mechanica's whole backstory is that she's obsessed with Ribbon Girl, and Kid Cobra and Master Mummy just kind of exist. Not going with Springman, Ribbongirl, Min-Min, Twintelle, or Ninjara would just be cynical for the sake of cynicism, which would be pointless given this is paid DLC.

You have obviously not looked into the lore of the game to know that it’s not about the characters of arms. Yes, are some more fan favorites? Correct, but a lot of lore can dictate who will get in.

I may be bias, but Max Brass is extremely important to the story and imo is a huge contender for someone who can represent arms as a whole. His lore with the series is extremely important.

 

[Polarthief]

Probably just meant for DLC Purposes not base Roster.

Probably, but they didn't say specifically to DLC, they were just talking about DLC characters broke rules in general.

Any rate. I think though you are correct for the alot of people on the fact that when Smash 64 first came out. I also said whos this Ness? Then discovered Earth Bound. Have i had seen it before? Probably yes but didn't pay any attention to it. Fast forward to present day you have a lots of fans asking for a Remake/ New Earthbound. I don't blame them. I want to see Earthbound on the switch.

Oh totally and there's nothing wrong with that. I am convinced that Smash was the cause of the West loving the Mother series. It was also our first encounter with FE too.

You have obviously not looked into the lore of the game to know that it’s not about the characters of arms. Yes, are some more fan favorites? Correct, but a lot of lore can dictate who will get in.

I may be bias, but Max Brass is extremely important to the story and imo is a huge contender for someone who can represent arms as a whole. His lore with the series is extremely important.

But why go with a not fan-favorite when you have many to pick from, especially when you're pushing a character as an ad? Byleth was the only character to pick because "main protag". You can't play favorites with one of the three houses, and picking Sothis would just be weird.

 

[domriver]

Probably, but they didn't say specifically to DLC, they were just talking about DLC characters broke rules in general.



Oh totally and there's nothing wrong with that. I am convinced that Smash was the cause of the West loving the Mother series. It was also our first encounter with FE too.

You know Polar, kinda makes me think. Did Nintendo think that SMASH will be influential as it is? What i mean is that you have is not just a bit but i would say a sizeable amount of people asking for remakes of old games - revivals of old characters. We both know that this is not an opinion - look at Kid Icarus who knew of Pit? To an extent Nintendo REALIZED the demand for King K Krool. Now he is in. ( which i main) Any reasonable person in this business should/would think hmmm maybe next DKC game we bring back King K Krool and dump this new one ( i forget his name). Now for opinions... I believe Nintendo make EarthBound remake - it will pass a million sales
Ice Climbers - maybe 300-500 k sales
Super Mario RPG remake/new - it will pass a million sales (maybe biased)
Banjo-Kazooie (Switches it up!) heheh. - it will be bigger than a million maybe 2.
Donkey Kong Country with King K Krool as Villian - it will pass a million sales
Issac - i think upper 700k's maybe a million sales

Honestly i think this is not to farfetched. I really hope Nintendo is really thinking about it. If they want to keep their customers who were born mid 80's to early 90's. I think these are the safe bets. Am i wrong Fatmanonice

 

[Vector Victor]

Honestly, IF Nintendo actually avoided adding certain characters because they initially made them spirits, then I find that to be such an idiotic, empty-headed, tone-deaf, short-sighted, monumentally STUPID idea. That they would hinder themselves that much for future plans is mind-boggling logic defying.

It would also be massively hypocritical. 'Chrom existing as a final Smash won't stop us from adding Chrom! -GASP!- A jpeg!? I guess that means we disqualify almost 1,000 characters from Ultimate!'

If they bypassed all the ARMS characters already in Smash for one with zero presence in the game, I'd actually question their sanity.

 

[Polarthief]

You know Polar, kinda makes me think. Did Nintendo think that SMASH will be influential as it is?

I don't think they thought this til they were developing Brawl and had a better picture after they had numbers from Smash 64 and some of Melee. The Internet was also much more developed at this point; still not in-your-pocket convenient, but not as old school as in previous years.

Honestly, IF Nintendo actually avoided adding certain characters because they initially made them spirits, then I find that to be such an idiotic, empty-headed, tone-deaf, short-sighted, monumentally STUPID idea. That they would hinder themselves that much for future plans is mind-boggling logic defying.

It would also be massively hypocritical. 'Chrom existing as a final Smash won't stop us from adding Chrom! -GASP!- A jpeg!? I guess that means we disqualify almost 1,000 characters from Ultimate!'

If they bypassed all the ARMS characters already in Smash for one with zero presence in the game, I'd actually question their sanity.

Yeah, exactly, all of this.

 

[MattX20]

Even if ARMS somehow threads the needle and winds up miraculously NOT being a promotion, the odds of at least one promotion happening before the end of this is staggeringly high. It's the easiest way to outdo themselves and everyone knows it. It's not a matter of if but when and who. If you really think it, both seasons of DLC so far was repeated instances of outdoing themselves. Think about how many fan rules were knee capped with the addition of Mewtwo, Ryu, Cloud and Bayo and then think about how this continued with Plant, Joker, Hero, and Banjo. You really don't think they're going to do this again for Season 2? We've talked about the logistics of these characters to death but think of what a benchmark Hero and Banjo left based on everything that had to be done to get them in. People really think that Nintendo's done with subverting expectations for this game? Honestly, aside from straight up non video game characters, promotions are basically the final frontier that they really haven't touched yet.

That, and it's fairly unlikely that the ARMS rep won't be one of the already present 5 spirits in the base game. They're basically the main/most popular characters of the game

 

[Vector Victor]

It would be like if they added DLC to Dissidia 12 and announced a 4th FFVII character. Many would assume Aerith but then Square says no since she's in the game as an assist character so she can't be playable (despite the fact that all playable characters can be an assist). Then they announce Cait Sith or Yuffie as the 4th character.

Its a stupid self-inflicted pointless restriction.

 

[Heoj]

the only nonspirit arms character i think has a chance is Max Brass. Dr. Coyle i just dont see happening as she does a horrible job at representing arms. The rest arent really worth going too deep into.
Overall im just really confident that its either a spirit upgrade or max brass, but mostly that its a spirit.
I personally highly doubt its solo spring man since they already have a full model with solid animations so the fact we have to wait so long for it to be revealed makes me think its not solo springman. Which leaves the possibilites in my opinion to:

Min-Min
Twintelle
Max Brass
a hero/bowserjr. of springman, ribbon girl, min-min and ninjara

And I dont see us getting solo ribbon girl or solo ninjara
So overall the chances of a spirit upgrade is extremely likely which definitely bodes well for Geno.

 

[Sigran101]

I've said it before but the lengths they would have to go to avoid the ARMS rep being a promotion is pretty crazy. 5 of the 10 starting characters are spirits with 2 being the mascots on the front of the box and the other 3 regularly cleaning house in popularity contests. Those other 5 don't even really register to non-ARMS fans. Byte and Barq and Helix are a little too unique for their own good, Mechanica's whole backstory is that she's obsessed with Ribbon Girl, and Kid Cobra and Master Mummy just kind of exist. Not going with Springman, Ribbongirl, Min-Min, Twintelle, or Ninjara would just be cynical for the sake of cynicism, which would be pointless given this is paid DLC. Even if something isn't what people asked for, you still want people to want it. There's also the simple concept that you don't want a character at the very front of the pass that will totally torpedo peoples' enthusiasm right off the bat and it already being an ARMS character has put Season 2 on thin ice for a lot of people.

I think you're seriously underestimating Max Brass. I think there's a solid chance that he would be their second choice after Springman regardless of spirits.

 

[Polarthief]

Honestly, if we got a full 8 character Bowser Jr., I think it'll be:
- Spring Man (obvious choice)
- Ribbon Girl (obvious choice)
- Min-Min (#1 most popular)
- Ninjara (#2 most popular)
- Max Brass (behind-the-scenes third mascot)
- Helix (the weird one that a lot of people love)
- Dr. Coyle (probably the fan-favorite of the DLC, plus we get a villain; that said, her unique ability to float instead of jump will be an issue though and would be scrapped for it)
- Twintelle! (If they can somehow manage her hair despite being a costume; I think it'll work)
-* Kid Cobra (if they can't manage Twintelle; he's popular, used to be #2 most popular, and from base)

Characters I don't think can be in a Bowser Jr. character:
- Byte & Barq: Too different. You'd have to remove the dog.
- Mechanica: The mech; it's too different. All the fighters would likely change slightly to fit the same fighter, but I don't see how the mech would work.
- Master Mummy: I feel that he's too big (haha Ridley joke here) to be a Bowser Jr. character. Shrinking him down would make him look less like his character, and increasing the hitbox of all the other characters to compensate would be weird. FTR: Max Brass is big, but he can be adjusted slightly to fit better. I don't think MM can.
-* Twintelle: The odd one out. She's only on here as a half-measure because despite her hair attacking, I still think her hair can lower when attacked to have the same hitbox.

This leaves the following characters:
- Misango: Who? Does anyone care about him? A DLC character that I really don't see anyone talk about. Why add him?
- Lola Pop: People do like her, but her status as a DLC and the lack of her iconic inflation ability would likely keep her off the list.
- Springtron: He's gonna become the Assist Trophy for when Spring Man is in the battle, or just in general, I'm calling it here and now.

Also one final thing if they do decide to go with a single character that I keep hearing PapaGenos mention: Twintelle has arms, and I don't mean armaments (obviously, since all the fighters do), I mean LITERAL arms, with normal hands attached to them. If any of the special moves end up being some kind of ARM-related attack, a grab (which uses both their arms) or anything of that sort, how would you do that while holding items? Literally only Twintelle would be able to manage that. Does it mean I think she's "for sure" gonna be a single-picked character? No, but I do think this is a technical/technicality hurdle that the dev team would need to really consider how to handle that.

TL;DR: If we get a Bowser Jr.-style character, a spirit *WILL* be promoted. If we don't, it's still extremely likely a spirit will be promoted. This is good news for Geno, obviously (not that he needs it, because he's in).

 

[Enigma735]

Especially when DQ in the West pre-DQ11 on Switch was significantly more well-known than FE in the West during Melee days. Virtually no one knew who the heck those characters were, even less than Ness on Smash 64 (barely anyone knew who that was either).

Hero broke a grand total of 0 rules. They weren't even the first "DLC can be a Bowser Jr.-style" character since Corrin was that with both Male and Female variants (it doesn't matter if the character is barely different, a male and female variant are still two different characters).

PS: It's nuts to think that 2 out of 5 of our FP1 DLC were Bowser Jr. style characters. 40% of FP1 was Jr.-styled. Makes me think ARMS being another one isn't all that unlikely!

Exactly and I see your point. Hero probably was the only DLC that didn't really break any rules, but still, 5 out of 6 characters is still an impressive ratio on how many times Sakurai has broke fan rules. And yeah, having a four-in-one ARMS rep would be best case scenario, since that makes the idea of Spirit and even Assist Trophy upgrades more then possible.

 

[Lord Woomy]

For anyone who wasn't aware just how hopeless things felt before Hero's presentation: Here's me, the ultimate stretcher of logic to make Geno seem more likely, fully admitting that I thought Geno had a snowball's chance in hell. Geno's Mii Costume not returning was big news and I'm tired of seeing people constantly try to downplay it all the time like it was nothing.

 

[Polarthief]

For anyone who wasn't aware just how hopeless things felt before Hero's presentation: Here's me, the ultimate stretcher of logic to make Geno seem more likely, fully admitting that I thought Geno had a snowball's chance in hell. Geno's Mii Costume not returning was big news and I'm tired of seeing people constantly try to downplay it all the time like it was nothing.
View attachment 270522

Late AF, but he's in, so that's good.

I'm really hoping for June, but his debut might be ~September.

 

[Lord Woomy]

I'm really hoping for June, but his debut might be ~September.

Still betting on June, not even sure I'll live through being in Smash speculation until September lol.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

Geno's Mii Costume not returning was big news and I'm tired of seeing people constantly try to downplay it all the time like it was nothing.

Every time I get a little worried about Geno, I keep this in mind. I have a nasty habit of being extremely pessimistic in order to keep my expectations low. Recently I’ve just been dreading June and expecting someone like Tifa or 2B to be added (not that those are bad characters mind you) and for Geno to once again be snuffed.

But in the back of my mind, that small amount of hope shines through, like Geno entering the doll in SMRPG. His mii costume’s still missing, things are looking good for him right now. It’s also comforting to know that I have a whole coalition of Geno fans I can always talk to as well, so it’s not like I’m going through this alone, which is great.

I’m placing my bets on #77, with Geno being a bombshell E3 reveal. I might be wrong but god I hope I’m right, for mine and everyone’s sake.

 

[MattX20]

The main reason why I'm betting on MinMin being our ARMS rep to go alongside a potential Geno reveal over Twintelle is mainly because the latter has the same gimmick of slowing time down as Bayonetta, and given how widely disliked Bayo was in Smash 4 due to how broken she was...I don't think Sakurai and the development team would want to repeat that design choice

 

[Icewolff92]

Joker: Broke the fan-rule of must have some sort of relation to Nintendo.

SMT and Persona DQ is on 3DS so that one is still not broken per say

 

[Lord Woomy]

Every time I get a little worried about Geno, I keep this in mind. I have a nasty habit of being extremely pessimistic in order to keep my expectations low. Recently I’ve just been dreading June and expecting someone like Tifa or 2B to be added (not that those are bad characters mind you) and for Geno to once again be snuffed.

But in the back of my mind, that small amount of hope shines through, like Geno entering the doll in SMRPG. His mii costume’s still missing, things are looking good for him right now. It’s also comforting to know that I have a whole coalition of Geno fans I can always talk to as well, so it’s not like I’m going through this alone, which is great.

I’m placing my bets on #77, with Geno being a bombshell E3 reveal. I might be wrong but god I hope I’m right, for mine and everyone’s sake.

I feel the same. I always try to remind myself how worried I was if it was gonna be Steve or Banjo for the MS rep and we got Banjo in the end so I was kinda worrying over nothing. If I were able to tell my June 2019 self all the developments that have happened in the past ~11 months I think he'd think Geno is as good as confirmed, we just worry ourselves too often with over speculation and we allow the general Smash speculation community shudders try to downplay everything for us.
I'm also a firm believer in the fact that we're not getting another Squarachter if not Geno. 2B feels unlikely due to CERO, a FF7 character would feel very out of place for Nintendo to try and promote (seeing as how the game is only on one of Nintendo's rival's platform) and Lara Croft just feels... highly unlikely. Keep in mind, from what we know, insiders have only been hearing Sephiroth and Geno as Squarachters so Sephiroth may be the only """competition""" (I use that word for lack of a better one) to Geno.
June's little over a month away, we can make it, bros.

 

[Polarthief]

June's little over a month away, we can make it, bros.

42 days til June 9th; 44 to June 11th (from the day of me posting this, obviously, if you, reader, are reading this in the future). Not that bad of a wait.

If Geno's not at "E3", I will be sad we might have to wait til September~October.

 

[Lord Woomy]

42 days til June 9th; 44 to June 11th (from the day of me posting this, obviously, if you, reader, are reading this in the future). Not that bad of a wait.

If Geno's not at "E3", I will be sad we might have to wait til September~October.

I'm pretty sure I've said it before but for Smash recently, it seems Nintendo does like showing off longtime fan requests at E3 (in memoriam). Ridley and Banjo both got the E3 treatment and I don't think that's a coincidence, K Rool only got shown off in a regular Smash direct because there was only on pre-release E3 and they wanted to space their limited newcomer reveals out just a little. Even then, they still showed off K Rool the next chance they got. I really do feel like we're gearing up for GE3no.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Is the "AT can't get promoted" fan rule basically shattered at this point?

 

[Let Geno Smash]

I feel the same. I always try to remind myself how worried I was if it was gonna be Steve or Banjo for the MS rep and we got Banjo in the end so I was kinda worrying over nothing. If I were able to tell my June 2019 self all the developments that have happened in the past ~11 months I think he'd think Geno is as good as confirmed, we just worry ourselves too often with over speculation and we allow the general Smash speculation community shudders try to downplay everything for us.
I'm also a firm believer in the fact that we're not getting another Squarachter if not Geno. 2B feels unlikely due to CERO, a FF7 character would feel very out of place for Nintendo to try and promote (seeing as how the game is only on one of Nintendo's rival's platform) and Lara Croft just feels... highly unlikely. Keep in mind, from what we know, insiders have only been hearing Sephiroth and Geno as Squarachters so Sephiroth may be the only """competition""" (I use that word for lack of a better one) to Geno.
June's little over a month away, we can make it, bros.

Yeah i also think Lara isn't that likely like people think she is a litteraly PS character, you see lara and you don't say (A character a think when i think on third parties in nintendo), yeah cloud, joker and Snake but... Snake was added due the Kojima's son want a Kojima character in smash
Joker due sakurai love P5
Cloud cause, please is FF
Lara isn't a related nintendo character

I'm pretty sure I've said it before but for Smash recently, it seems Nintendo does like showing off longtime fan requests at E3 (in memoriam). Ridley and Banjo both got the E3 treatment and I don't think that's a coincidence, K Rool only got shown off in a regular Smash direct because there was only on pre-release E3 and they wanted to space their limited newcomer reveals out just a little. Even then, they still showed off K Rool the next chance they got. I really do feel like we're gearing up for GE3no.

We are getting a Banjo E3-ie Again