Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Glitch-EGamer]

I thought we're supposed to count franchise representative, not company ownership, if ownership is only a secondary factor alongside franchise.

Otherwise it'd be weird for you to consider Geno equivalent with Crash and Master Chief even if their roles are clearly different. Being owned by third party wouldn't erase the fact he is from Mario series.

He can count as Mario and third party. Series doesn't always equal party status anyway like how Shantae is a Wayforward character, even though she was technically Capcom back in the day.

 

[Dorayaki]

He can count as Mario and third party. Series doesn't always equal party status anyway like how Shantae is a Wayforward character, even though she was technically Capcom back in the day.

Franchise is the main trait fighters are known for in the game, since Smash bros was primarily for Nintendo's own franchises. Ownership is noted only when it invites 3rd party franchise reps, however it's not relevent with the issuse between Geno and Mario franchise. As long as he isn't known to be from a new franchise, his ownership isn't what we focus on in the game. (Of course, in reality we focus on how the contracts are done).

Even based on your assumption, if we're seeking for characters owned by third parties, the prior choices would end up being the protagonists of the franchises owned by third parties over another Mario character. Clearly the topic here is Geno, so that's why it's an irrelevant point.

If we want to make Geno equivalent with Cloud and Erdrick yet differentiate him from other Mario characters, the only particial way is asking his owner Square to build a new franchise for him , so that he might be a similiar case with Banjo.

 

[Polarthief]

I mean, Geno's obviously in a weird place being one of the extremely few characters (the others mostly just being other original SMRPG characters like Mallow and the Smithy Gang, and other games I can't think about) that are owned by a third party, but exists in a first party universe (Mario).

Regardless, it would be a bit weird if his symbol wasn't the Mario Mushroom, but I could see them maybe giving him a mushroom with a star in it? Idk.
That said, Daisy and Dr. Mario are from spin-offs, but both use the Mario Mushroom symbol so I doubt they'd do anything different for Geno.

If we want to make Geno equivalent with Cloud and Erdrick yet differentiate him from other Mario characters, the only particial way is asking his owner Square to build a new franchise for him , so that he might be a similiar case with Banjo.

Wait, how was BK a similar case to Geno? He's third party and exists in his own universe, unless you're talking about Diddy Kong Racing, which AFAIK doesn't even take place in the DK universe (it's like Smash in that it exists outside of everything else). Also, even if it did, they're using the Banjo-Kazooie version of BK, not Banjo by himself from DKR, so it'd be really weird to say he's from DKR; in a similar light, Wario in Smash is from the "Wario" series, not the Mario series, because they're using his WarioWare version, not his Mario one.

PS: If they differentiated by game, not by series, you'd also see a bunch of different ones for the Legend of Zelda characters: Link (BOTW), Yink (mixture of both OoT [Boomerang] and MM [able to use a Bow as a child]), Tink (WW), Zelda (LBW), Sheik (OoT), and Ganondorf (OoT).

 

[Plank08]

This may be an old post, but I feel the need to point out the amazing smash remix of "beneath the mask" from Persona 5.

I love the fact made it in smash.

 

[Loliko YnT]

And as I already said, if you did own the Mario games that Geno had chances to be in but failed, it is sure dissapointing. You mean he doesn't need to but why that sounds as if you're fine with that?

Personnaly , I would love to see Geno in more Mario games. Be it Mario Kart , Tennis , Party , or a new RPG or just something Mario related.

It's one of the main reasons I support the guy for Smash. To prove to Square Enix that the cast of SMRPG is worth using for other Mario games : Be it a simple DLC Pack for a Mario multiplayer spin-off , or a Mario RPG they will develop themselves. To prove that Geno is popular and people want him back.

Right now , I'm not expecting the SMRPG cast to be in any Mario spin-offs... Because Nintendo don't need to add them. They have way more than enough characters for their games :
Look at the Superstar Baseball roster :

This was back in the Gamecube era. They didn't even had Galaxy/Odyssey/3DLandWorld stuff to pull from , and they litteraly picked ONE Luigi's Mansion character , with a different design : King Boo. Yet , they could fill a 32 character roster with almost no problem.

Truth be told , Smash is the only way I can see Geno and coe be back. Nintendo doesn't need the SMRPG cast for their Mario games right now , even for RPGs.
Adding Geno to Smash would convince SE that Geno and coe are popular , especially considering their current status. It will prove that these characters aren't just loved by some "grumpy boomers who only play SNES RPGs" , the fan support for Geno in Smash is widespread. By that logic , they would be more enclined to work with Nintendo , and share these characters for DLCs/Other stuff , since there will be a big enough playerbase to buy them.

At least , that's how I see it :
Nintendo doesn't need the SMRPG cast for their Mario games , and even if they asked SE for them , they would be hesitant to say yes due to their obscure nature , even if it would bring them DLC money.
So adding Geno to Smash prove that there is a big enough playerbase that would buy SMRPG content , even outside of Smash.

---

Also , to me , Smash has always been the perfect way to bring spotlight to smaller characters/franchises , and give them another shot. Fire Emblem is a perfect example of that. And more recently , I really hope K.Rool and BK inclusion will encourage Nintendo and Microsoft to use them in more games , even if K.Rool's inclusion in Smash will soon be 2 years old.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Is it weird that because your avatar is Edgeworth, and you said the word "evidence", I immediately read this line in his voice?

"Your Honor, the prosecution believes that the evidence points in favor of Mr. ♪!?."

I can imagine a dual-reveal trailer for both Phoenix Wright and Geno where, after Wright's gameplay is shown and the trailer looks like it's about to end, Edgeworth objects and says that he has one more witness to call to the stand. Cue... a doll, just some regular generic Raggedy Ann-style doll. When Wright and the Judge question what's going on, a tiny star appears and fuses with the doll. After a flash of white-light, Edgeworth asks...

"Witness, please state your name and profession to the court."
"I'm ♪!?."
"... what?"

 

[Dorayaki]

Personnaly , I would love to see Geno in more Mario games. Be it Mario Kart , Tennis , Party , or a new RPG or just something Mario related.

It's one of the main reasons I support the guy for Smash. To prove to Square Enix that the cast of SMRPG is worth using for other Mario games : Be it a simple DLC Pack for a Mario multiplayer spin-off , or a Mario RPG they will develop themselves. To prove that Geno is popular and people want him back.

Truth be told , Smash is the only way I can see Geno and coe be back. Nintendo doesn't need the SMRPG cast for their Mario games right now , even for RPGs.
Adding Geno to Smash would convince SE that Geno and coe are popular , especially considering their current status. It will prove that these characters aren't just loved by some "grumpy boomers who only play SNES RPGs" , the fan support for Geno in Smash is widespread. By that logic , they would be more enclined to work with Nintendo , and share these characters for DLCs/Other stuff , since there will be a big enough playerbase to buy them.

Problem is, as said, Smash bros wouldn't be a place to revive character when franchise advertising is a very clear purpose of the game, and Geno has to face many strong competitors that own advantages he lacks.

In Nintendo's perspective they want the sales to meet the standard, so I can understand why they don't want to risk it (plant piranha being a freebie is an expception, even if it's still arguable). At this point, Nintendo might still feel not sure about Geno as making him DLCs mostly just please Mario series fans, and they have to deal with Square with a potential fee. Assume that he costs as much as Cloud, that means Geno also has to make as much money as Cloud did. It is definitely a hard mission for him.

And yes, technically the Mario spinoffs have been selling very well without Geno and other RPG characters (although people can still argue that some of the generic enemies can be replaced with some RPG partners). But isn't that logically weird? Smash bros also sells well without Geno, I know this doesn't sound pleasant to Geno fans, but that's a fact in sales number. If general Mario games don't need Geno to be part of it, Nintendo can feel that Geno isn't necessary when they present Mario franchsie contents in Smash bros. After all Geno has been just an opinion for roster addition, not an obligation NIntendo need to fulfill.

And of course, we're not assuming that Geno should only be presented in Smash bros alone without relying on Mario franchise, which is illogical since all Smash fighters focus on their gaming background. Mario series is his root, it isn't wise to ignore it when we push Geno in Smash bros.

Yet again, when most characters have stunning profolio for Nintendo to consider their inclusion, "giving a chance" would not really persuade them to consider Geno. I think in Nintendo's perspective they'd be more interested when we say "Geno has the potential to make their games double its sales", so that they can start a series plan to promote and advertise him. NIntendo has their market research team, they can do ballots or other investigation to estimate Geno's potential, so I don't think Nintendo would only know it if he is a Smash DLC. After all, this thread is so long because fans here are passionate enough to prove Geno is indeed popular, it doesn't need to be proved only when he actually makes it.

Still, assuming that Smash bros is the "starting point" is weird, cause to most Smash fighters in this game, they entries are more like "goals" because of what they have done. Such kind of use might be unfair to those characters in the end. (Yes, I noted Roy whose featured game was postponed, so oremise is Geno is gonna have the same treat) I only think Geno can compete for Smash bros because he is officially a Mario series character, simple enough.

Personally, I think Mario spinoffs would be a better place to start it since the investment and payback don't need to be huge. Geno can make better money than most secondary or generic Mario enemies in DLCs. And as the information provided enough, Mario Kart technically sells better than Smash bros, so I don't think Geno making appearances in Mario games wouldn't boost his public reputation.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Hmm...if we don't get a remake for Super Mario RPG, would you be satisfied with it appearing on the Switch online services instead?

Considering I'm paying $20 a year to occasionally play Pokemon online and pretty much nothing else then yeah I'll take a game on NSO that I'll actually play and enjoy.

A game from their not flagship franchise outselling a game from their flagship franchise? I guess it's time to switch mascots.

It doesn't matter how well Zelda or even Pokemon does for that matter (considering Pokemon's the #1 media franchise of all time right now), Mario is their mascot and primary franchise.



But that wasn't my point. You were like "then we should get a 30th anniv FE character", and I was pointing out that we already did; don't spin my words into a completely different argument.



But you didn't prove anything and it's still a possibility. If this E3 was rumored to be FE-focused instead, I'd say "yeah we're probably getting Lyn" or something like that, but the rumors (hence the possibility part; it could also not happen at all) have been that a lot of Mario stuff is coming for the 35th anniversary. We also have two Mario characters that have been snubbed by both Base game and FP1, and Nintendo's aware of the fan demand for both. If they were gonna add them both in, this would be the time to do it when all the hype and focus is on the Mario franchise. Again, it's totally possible it doesn't happen as well. It's also possible we get one of them but not both.

I even said last year* that if (again, if, as in "a possibility") Porky was getting in and Mother 3 was being ported officially to a Western release finally, last year would have been it. as it was Mother's 30th anniversary + year of the pig; the stars straight up aligned for that to happen 30 years ago when the first game was released in 1989. But it didn't happen and there's been no talk about a Mother 3 port, so I don't see it as likely anymore. Could Porky still get in? Of course. Could we still get a Mother 3 port to the West? Absolutely. Anything's possible, just like an FE rep could totally show up at E3 if they wanted to. Not as likely, but it's still a possibility.

* I didn't post it here since I wasn't a poster here during E3 2019. I did say it somewhere though and if I do stumble upon it, I'll be sure to screenshot it



Wanna know a fun fact? I don't even see it happening because it's simply too good to be true. All I did was acknowledge it as a possibility. I do however think that #7 will be a Mario rep, assuming the rumors turn out to be true. PS: I'm only about 70-30 on if we're getting #6-8 reveals vs #6-7. If we do get 6-8, I see Geno *OR* Waluigi, and then another big rep like Crash happening instead. That said, I do think E3 will be quite big and spectacular for Mario and Smash fans overall

I think people should be careful to use rumors as major support for their arguments (not accusing you specifically and I know you said that you don't think this will happen just that it could happen which I agree with). But these rumors of a Mario-focused year are just that: rumors. It frankly doesn't really matter to me who and how many people are backing the rumors because they still could be entirely bunk and rumors are very hit or miss in general. Icewolf is also right that using the anniversary to support arguments won't suffice, because as you said with Porky, it doesn't matter how much the stars align or how much sense it makes Nintendo will always Nintendo...er I mean do things their own way.

I could see a Mario character as #7 or 8. I actually do think the chances are quite high of one of those two spots going to a Mario character. What I'm personally unsure of is if Nintendo would want to follow a lukewarm first party reveal with another reveal from a first party universe although I suppose Geno or Waluigi would garner a far warmer reception. My opinion is that bonuses aren't going to happen but if they do then Waluigi is a good bonus character pick (although a Mario party stage could be really fun). I don't really see them adding two characters from the same universe back to back despite the fact that they're both backed by incredible fan support. But it could happen and I would be totally cool with it if it did. The fanbase will always find something to cry about regardless and it would be pretty funny watching people whine about Mario overrepresentation when both characters were such huge fan picks. But I'm with you that I see a big name like Crash or Dante along with someone like Geno or Waluigi.

I don't mean to interrupt your guy's conversation, but I wanna make a more formal introduction to myself since I am still new here. My name is Enigma735, or you can just call me Enigma for short. For a while, I was trying to find a website where I can safely discuss my feelings about my most wanteds [Crash And Geno] and speculate about this game, because Smash is one of my absolute favorite video game franchises of all time.

I have used SmashFAQ's for a while and I realized how much of a mistake it was. While their was rarely ever any Crash hate, the website as a whole just had a huge hate boner for Geno, and almost all of the users acted like Geno was this impossible character that would never get included and they would bully other members for even wanting him. I didn't really feel safe using that website. I always felt nervous expressing my feelings because I was afraid someone would ridicule me over my opinions and I couldn't take it anymore. That is where Smashboards comes in.

I'm not entirely new here, as I have made accounts in the past from like 5 years ago, but I never really used this site for really anything. It was recently when I decided I would actively use this site and become a regular member here. Anyways, I have taken a week or two to look at the difference between the SmashFAQs members and the Smashboards members and right away, I instantly enjoyed this environment more. All of the members I have seen have been pretty nice so far and very respectful over other people's thoughts and opinions and I really appreciate that. I actually don't feel nervous expressing my thoughts unlike in SmashFAQs.

Anyways, I really enjoy Smashboards and I don't know why I never really used it that much in the past. This is definitely one of my favorite ways to discuss and speculate about Smash and this will definitely be a website I will always come back to.

Officially welcome to the thread. We also have a discord that I'm sure someone could give you info about if you were interested. Also, we have something called Operation Starfall that has been championing for Geno in Smash in different ways currently they are supporting a fundraiser (I know bad timing) for Starlight an organization that focuses on helping hospitalized children. I'm sure someone could give you info on Operation Starfall if you wanted too. I'm just a good for nothing drone here with a tiny bit of know how so I can't get you nothing.

Geno and Crash are in my top 3 most wanted as well and characters that would really make Ultimate feel ultimate for me. I don't talk on the Crash board often not that there's anything wrong with it I just really click with these humans and enjoy this community. There's so many differing viewpoints and people often bring up really good discussion points and challenge points of view in a positive manner. I think people sometimes mistake it for us being overzealous or too emotionally involved but really I think we all just like to look at every angle and challenge each other to think critically and at the end of the day disagreements are just disagreements and we are still all Geno bros. I hope you enjoy your time here.

My thoughts on Geno's chances of getting into Smash:
He has more then enough reason to get in just with demand. He doesn't really need anything else.

However, it's stupid to think that demand is the only thing that's important to get into Smash; chances are that it's only a small piece of a much bigger pie. Things like history, impact, recognition, sales, company relations, promotions, are all just as important as fan-demand in terms of "who" gets picked for Smash. A lot of people act like Nintendo just randomly picks from a list of potential candidates to decide who to put in, but I bet that they had a team of experts who literally analyze tons of data and look at future prospects in order to literally manufacture FP 1.

From the list above, Geno really only has fan-demand and improving company relations. Which is what most other "expected" 3rd party picks have too.

The thing that sets Geno apart currently is the amount of evidence pointed towards him right now. But let me assure you, until he is seen on screen he isn't anywhere near confirmed. For all we know all this evidence stacking up for him could just be another Isaac situation AKA there's a ton of evidence pointing towards Geno that just ends up leading him to be a Mii costume or worse not even a Mii.

Also another thing, just because this year is Mario's 35th anniversary DOES NOT mean that we're 99% getting a new Mario rep in Smash to celebrate, it rarely works that way for Nintendo. While Smash and Mario are hugely important to Nintendo, not every celebration revolves around a Smash collab; I can't really remember the last time the anniversary of a series was a hint towards who got into Smash.

Finally, even if we get a Mario rep, it is most likely between Waluigi, Paper Mario, and Geno coming next. There's no way they'd put in multiple reps from the same franchise in the same fighter's pass; even if it's Mario. All 3 of them have their own reasons to get in, but again none of them are guaranteed. Sure a suit at Nintendo said that they realize that both Waluigi and Geno are popular, but that should not be taken as a hint. Most of these decisions are made in Japan, not in America. Sakurai stated he wanted both ARMS and XC 2 fighters in Smash, and just because ARMS got confirmed doesn't mean that Rex is in. And Sakurai is the literal creator of the game. Saying something does not equal a hint.

TL;DR: Geno has a reason to get into Smash. No he isn't a lock like so many people here believe. There aren't going to be multiple Mario characters in this single pass, be realistic. No there isn't going to be a special "bonus" character, Smash team has their hands full with making FP 2; they aren't going to add in more work until after FP 2 is done, and currently Sakurai said that there are no plans for anything. And lastly, Nintendo knows what they're doing; I'm willing to bet they knew how most reveals from FP 1 would be taken by the larger community, they're professionals.

I agree with everything you're saying. I do want to add that Geno is significant in terms of Mario history though. He is the most popular character from the very first Mario RPG game. That history has actually been acknowledged and kept alive mostly by fans but also to a small degree by Nintendo. I know when you say history you probably don't mean in this sense, but I think that could actually be a really significant factor for Geno and would make for an excellent talking point in the Sakurai presentation if he were to make it in. At the end of the day Nintendo is going to pick who they pick based on what they think is best and what they are able to negotiate for and Geno could either rise up on his merits and have his evidence turn out to be true or get swallowed in the chaos of all the other competing characters and motives for Nintendo to choose who they choose and have all his evidence turn out to be just circumstantial. That's why I'm always of the mind "wait and see". I also think people way overstate the importance of Geno getting in Ultimate. He could still very well make it into future Smash games no matter how many times we try and convince ourselves otherwise for whatever obtuse and unprovable reason. I get the urgency and the feeling that Geno will just get more obscure over time but I don't really agree with that although I understand that now is the perfect time to appeal to certain age groups with characters like Geno, Crash, Spyro, Rayman, etc. But that doesn't mean it has to be now for him. I do think Geno is likely in FP2 based on his evidence and his merits tho.

Like how Roy's case was brought up, I think it's not about specific order, but how Nintendo take the ongoing projects into consideration, since the projects would run for a peroid. It's not that they didn't think about LM3 or SMM2 when Smash 5 was released.

Unlike Star Fox or Earthbound, Mario series projects are pretty much continuous, None of the Smash titles existed in a window peroid where no Mario games were in plans. There is exactly no situation where Geno cannot fit in new Mario titels so that Smash bros is the only place to go. Even now with mobile titles running, inserting Geno into a future Mario Kart Tour gacha event wouldn't be an impossible thing.

You can defend with KRool and plant piranha who don't seem to spefiically promote certain new Mario games, that's fine, but we wouldn't call that a wise plan. FE3H was kinda forced, but could be wise in Nintendo's viewpoint.

You're welcome to think what you think, but the fact of the matter is that it's not as simple as you're suggesting. Geno is a third party character and getting him into first party games that don't usually have third party characters is a big deal. If it wasn't then Geno would have been more than a cameo in Mario & Luigi and he would be in Mario Kart and the like. People vy for him in Smash because Smash often makes use of third party characters and has secured the rights to huge and small names alike. Geno is much more likely to come to Smash than he is to Mario games unless SE is specifically working on another Mario game and they work him in that way. Otherwise prepare your butts for Geno in Smash or no Geno at all...or SMRPG on NSO. I mean for goodness sake they can't even get Fawful or Kamek in over 90% of Mario games and they would be much easier to get.

 

[Dorayaki]

You're welcome to think what you think, but the fact of the matter is that it's not as simple as you're suggesting. Geno is a third party character and getting him into first party games that don't usually have third party characters is a big deal. If it wasn't then Geno would have been more than a cameo in Mario & Luigi and he would be in Mario Kart and the like. People vy for him in Smash because Smash often makes use of third party characters and has secured the rights to huge and small names alike. Geno is much more likely to come to Smash than he is to Mario games unless SE is specifically working on another Mario game and they work him in that way. Otherwise prepare your butts for Geno in Smash or no Geno at all...or SMRPG on NSO. I mean for goodness sake they can't even get Fawful or Kamek in over 90% of Mario games and they would be much easier to get.

I remember I already noted this? Geno being owned by third party is already one of his obstacle, because he has to reach same sales that other third party characters can do in Smash bros. Yet, if NIntendo is ever willing to make contracts with Square Enix, it wouldn't make difference for Geno to appear in Smash bros or other general games, since making Geno fight in Smash bros is also not gratis.

After all, we cannot say Geno shouldn't have a future outside Smash bros if he cannot builds his own franchise to leave Mario series. Our ultimate goal is of course helping him become a stronger gaming character, and appearing in various games is a necessary part of that.

Plus we've got some other Mario titles collaborated wtih 3rd party contents, so you cannot say that Geno never got chances when Square worked with NIntendo in other game projects, if your point is that Geno can only live in the collaborated games.

Let's not forget Square is the equal source of problem as they're not willnig to use Geno in their own original games in the first place, if that would had alternatively boosted his chance for Smash entry.

 

[Nicnac]

I remember I already noted this? Geno being owned by third party is already one of his obstacle, because he has to reach same sales that other third party characters can do in Smash bros. Yet, if NIntendo is ever willing to make contracts with Square Enix, it wouldn't make difference for Geno to appear in Smash bros or other general games, since making Geno fight in Smash bros is also not gratis.

After all, we cannot say Geno shouldn't have a future outside Smash bros if he cannot builds his own franchise to leave Mario series. Our ultimate goal is of course helping him become a stronger gaming character, and appearing in various games is a necessary part of that.

Plus we've got some other Mario titles collaborated wtih 3rd party contents, so you cannot say that Geno never got chances when Square worked with NIntendo in other game projects, if your point is that Geno can only live in the collaborated games.

Let's not forget Square is the equal source of problem as they're not willnig to use Geno in their own original games in the first place, if that would had alternatively boosted his chance for Smash entry.

Smash turns heads and grabs headlines significantly more than, say, Mario Party or Mario Kart and so could be used as a springboard to increase his popularity. Additionally, putting Geno in a game in which he has a lot of demand in makes more sense to me than putting him in a game he has considerably less demand for just because he has competitors in the series in which he has been wanted for over 10 years.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

I remember I already noted this? Geno being owned by third party is already one of his obstacle, because he has to reach same sales that other third party characters can do in Smash bros. Yet, if NIntendo is ever willing to make contracts with Square Enix, it wouldn't make difference for Geno to appear in Smash bros or other general games, since making Geno fight in Smash bros is also not gratis.

After all, we cannot say Geno shouldn't have a future outside Smash bros if he cannot builds his own franchise to leave Mario series. Our ultimate goal is of course helping him become a stronger gaming character, and appearing in various games is a necessary part of that.

Plus we've got some other Mario titles collaborated wtih 3rd party contents, so you cannot say that Geno never got chances when Square worked with NIntendo in other game projects, if your point is that Geno can only live in the collaborated games.

Let's not forget Square is the equal source of problem as they're not willnig to use Geno in their own original games in the first place, if that would had alternatively boosted his chance for Smash entry.

But Nintendo either couldn't get more than a cameo for Geno in Mario & Luigi due to SE or Nintendo didn't care to or a combination of both. SE has at least worked on Mario Hoops and other SE properties appeared in that but no Geno. Geno's rights must be so convoluted that they are almost not even worth trying to use. SE is likely in a similar boat that they can't really work him into anything despite the fact that they own him. This is why if both Nintendo and SE were to use Geno they would use him in something that would have surefire popularity like Smash and not risk it on a Mario spin off that I imagine do well generally but not as well as Smash Ultimate. I hope we get to see Geno in many games. I would love for SE to use him, for him to get his own series, for Nintendo to buy the rights to all SMRPG properties and use him in many future Mario games, to see him in Smash, to have SE develop some new Mario game where Geno was significantly involved, etc but out of all these possibilities Geno in Smash is the most likely and is supported by circumstantial evidence. I agree that as DLC his chances diminish due to the kinds of characters he has to compete with and base game was where he should have been if he were to make it.
There could be a SE and Nintendo Mario collaboration we are unaware of which is the only other possibility for Geno that I see as having a chance due to convoluted legalities, but we have no evidence for this but we DO have evidence for Geno being a possibility for Smash DLC circumstantial and mind boggling as that may be. If he sells well as a DLC fighter maybe they'd actually use him more and realize pursuing the rights is worth it. The situation is just very complicated. At any rate, we will have to wait and see what happens. I'm hopeful but not convinced that Geno will get anything. In line with your thinking, Geno could appear in a future Mario game then by extension gain the relevance he desperately needed to make it into a hypothetical Smash 6. Who knows really? I just don't think we should limit the scope of Smash to just promotions when it is still a gaming hall of fame and ode to the history of many franchises and unconventional FP1 picks make it hard to believe the motivations behind DLC choices that you're suggesting. Hopefully we do get both Geno in Smash and Geno in modern Mario (or his own) games regardless of which comes first.

 

[Dorayaki]

Smash turns heads and grabs headlines significantly more than, say, Mario Party or Mario Kart and so could be used as a springboard to increase his popularity. Additionally, putting Geno in a game in which he has a lot of demand in makes more sense to me than putting him in a game he has considerably less demand for just because he has competitors in the series in which he has been wanted for over 10 years.

Well, as noted above, Mario Kart base game sold better, so saying Smash bros is the best springboard isn't technically correct. And of course the springboard saying is already questionable, because that'd end up like every single character would want the chance to boost their reputation, just like most highschool students around the world want to star in a reality show.

After all, Smash bros can legally promtoe or advertise a new franchsie as a whole since that can conform to its main purpose. Just promoting a character from a presented franchise wouldn't be the same deal.

But Nintendo either couldn't get more than a cameo for Geno in Mario & Luigi due to SE or Nintendo didn't care to or a combination of both. SE has at least worked on Mario Hoops and other SE properties appeared in that but no Geno. Geno's rights must be so convoluted that they are almost not even worth trying to use. SE is likely in a similar boat that they can't really work him into anything despite the fact that they own him.

I think it's simply just that the companies didn't make plans to highlight Geno. In the case of M&L, obviously it's removed because they didn't get the permission, and NIntendo don't feel the need to keep him, since he didn't canonically particiapte in that game.

As already said, making Geno fight in Smash bros also require additional contacts that isn't an easy task as well. Just because it's a collaboration game doesn't mean Geno's entry is much easier than appearing in general games. The reason why Geno cannot appear in general video games can still be a reason why he isn't a Smash figher now, or the two things might actually correlate. What we focus on now is helping Geno deal with the obstacles. There is no firm garuntee about Geno's chance actually being higher in Smash bros when we have much more strong candidates compete than general games have.

 

[Loliko YnT]

Personally, I think Mario spinoffs would be a better place to start it since the investment and payback don't need to be huge. Geno can make better money than most secondary or generic Mario enemies in DLCs. And as the information provided enough, Mario Kart technically sells better than Smash bros, so I don't think Geno making appearances in Mario games wouldn't boost his public reputation.

I want Geno in those spin-offs , Mallow , Smithy , the Axem rangers , too !
And yes , these characters appearing in any Mario spin-off will be a huuuuge boost for them.

The main issue is that campaigning for a Mario character to get in a spin-off roster is much more complicated... because the fan demand for specific characters to be added to these games is way smaller compared to Smash Bros.
A lot of characters that are added to spin-offs like these take stuff from the most recent Mario games :
Mario Kart Double Dash having King Boo and Petey Piranha for Luigi's Mansion and Sunshine
Mario Kart Wii having Rosalina and Dry Bowser for Galaxy and NSMB

When a fan-favorite get added through DLCs , it's mostly because they were a character in a previous Mario Kart game. (Dry Bowser for MK8 DLC , Bowser Jr./Dry Bones/King Boo for MK8 Deluxe) And well... People are still asking for characters like Diddy Kong and Petey Piranha to come back... And Nintendo don't bring them back. They have Mario Kart Tour , the game where they could focus on fanservice due to it's gacha nature , and they didn't add them.

And of course , the big elephant in the room : Nintendo doesn't own Geno , and they have a big enough Mario cast anyway , even without adding RPGs , DK , or Wario characters. That's why I don't feel confident in the "He should be in a spin-off/New Mario game in general before Smash" mentality.

---

I know that Geno has some hard competition , but I'll support him regardless :
BK was in a similar spot , when he was considered dead outside of fan support , and Microsoft had Halo/Minecraft as big flagships franchises they could add to Smash. But instead , Sakurai went with BK because he knew he would bring the warmer reception , and was well aware of his Smash demand. I know he has his own franchise compared to Geno... But honestly , I lost count on how many people told me that "it's just a small relic of the past , it was just 2 games on the N64 , it's not at the same level as other beloved but small franchises like Starfox" or something like that.

We're also getting in the second DLC wave of a One year and a half old game. People who are still willing to spend 30 bucks on 6 characters (When it's half the price of the base game) are before anything , Smash and Nintendo fans. Not saying you can't be a Nintendo fan without owning others consoles of course , but you gotta have a target audience. And in that context , i think Geno could fit pretty well : since he's before anything else , an hardcore fan-demand , while representing the roots of Mario RPGs with the timed hits and overall unique character designs in the context of the Mario world.

That , and the fact that despise long debates , almost nobody saw characters like Joker , Terry and Byleth coming. While Hero had leaks going for him , and BK a lot of smaller stuff that kept adding up for him.

 

[Nicnac]

Well, as noted above, Mario Kart base game sold better, so saying Smash bros is the best springboard isn't technically correct. And of course the springboard saying is already questionable, because that'd end up like every single character would want the chance to boost their reputation, just like most highschool students around the world want to star in a reality show.

Yeah, Mario Kart sold better but my point is that Smash grabs headlines way more due to its crossover nature and track record of fan requests, meaning people take notice more. Ridley finally making it in hit gaming headlines, as did Waluigi not being so fortunate. Banjo and Kazooie coming home was one of the grand slams of E3 2019, up there with BOTW2, FF7R and Cyberpunk. Mario Kart sold more but doesn't have the same "Wow Factor" that Smash has, and I think this is apparent when big leaks get big coverage, like the Grinch Leak, Cacomallow or pre-DLC Vergeben.

Onto your point on the springboard being "questionable", I'd disagree. You say that everybody wants to boost reputation, and nobody denies that. My point is that Smash has a proven track record of drawing heads to franchises or characters that would have otherwise slipped past radars (e.g Kid Icarus, F-ZERO, MOTHER, Banjo, K. Rool and most prominently Fire Emblem, and I think a case could be made about Mega Man) and therefore adding Geno to Smash could have the same effect, increasing his general popularity.

 

[Dorayaki]

Yeah, Mario Kart sold better but my point is that Smash grabs headlines way more due to its crossover nature and track record of fan requests, meaning people take notice more. Ridley finally making it in hit gaming headlines, as did Waluigi not being so fortunate. Banjo and Kazooie coming home was one of the grand slams of E3 2019, up there with BOTW2, FF7R and Cyberpunk. Mario Kart sold more but doesn't have the same "Wow Factor" that Smash has, and I think this is apparent when big leaks get big coverage, like the Grinch Leak, Cacomallow or pre-DLC Vergeben.

Onto your point on the springboard being "questionable", I'd disagree. You say that everybody wants to boost reputation, and nobody denies that. My point is that Smash has a proven track record of drawing heads to franchises or characters that would have otherwise slipped past radars (e.g Kid Icarus, F-ZERO, MOTHER, Banjo, K. Rool and most prominently Fire Emblem, and I think a case could be made about Mega Man) and therefore adding Geno to Smash could have the same effect, increasing his general popularity.

As I already noted, promoting a whole franchise is very diffferent from promoting just one character of a franchise, you cannot do the comparison between things that come from different levels.

I mean, the point of view is weird here. It's more like assuming what Geno needs personally, not what Smash bros needs. Assume that Geno's entry to Smash bros may earn him reputation and chances for more games, he needs it, but that doesn't stop other characters from Ring=Fit Trainer, Barbara to Akira to compete for it with their advantages and needs too.

It's like I need to find a job in Nintendo just to make money to pay for my bills, but Nintendo wouldn't hire me just for my personal need. They still need to check whether I'm the best of all the applicants.

 

[Nicnac]

As I already noted, promoting a whole franchise is very diffferent from promoting just one character of a franchise, you cannot do the comparison between things that come from different levels.

OK, sure. Move Fire Emblem, F-ZERO, Earthbound and MOTHER to the side as examples of Smash promoting things and I still give you Banjo, King K. Rool, and arguably Mega Man. Smash is like a Midas Touch, whatever it touches becomes significantly more popular than what it was before. Look at Terry, for instance. People in Nintendo fanbases are now playing traditional fighters like KoF and Fatal Fury because of his introduction interesting them. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Geno is the same. We're going in circles here.

I mean, the point of view is weird here. It's more like assuming what Geno needs personally, not what Smash bros needs. Assume that Geno's entry to Smash bros may earn him reputation and chances for more games, he needs it, but that doesn't stop other characters from Ring=Fit Trainer, Barbara to Akira to compete for it with their advantages and needs too.

Yes, I know that Isaac, Ring Fit Trainer, Barbara or Akira could use a boost in popularity and Smash would give it to them. However, Geno is my most wanted. I don't really care about RFT, Barbara or Akira, although I do agree Isaac was done dirty. If you want to talk about how those guys need a boost in popularity, go to the RFT thread, Barbara thread or Akira thread. But this is the Geno thread, and whataboutting on other characters generally isn't necessary here.

 

[YsDisciple]

Thinking about it now, for some odd reason, the history of Geno (i.e. history behind the characters creation and ownership) reminded me of Oswald the lucky rabbit (or who I'd like to call... Mickey's forgotten Luigi). For reference,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_the_Lucky_Rabbit

https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Oswald_the_Lucky_Rabbit

The history of Oswald's character has many similarities to Geno's, albeit in a reverse fashion. Oswald was created by Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks for Universal Studios, but Universal eventually acquired the rights to Oswald around the 50s. It wasn't however until almost 2k that Disney acquired the rights to Oswald, and the character returned to the lime light (although for a while). One would think that in this case, Universal was the paralel to Nintendo, but actually it is the parallel to Square Enix since Universal barely made use of Oswald. Heck, imagine this character's importance that when Disney no longer had the rights to it back in the day, they then created Mickey.

 

[Dorayaki]

OK, sure. Move Fire Emblem, F-ZERO, Earthbound and MOTHER to the side as examples of Smash promoting things and I still give you Banjo, King K. Rool, and arguably Mega Man. Smash is like a Midas Touch, whatever it touches becomes significantly more popular than what it was before. Look at Terry, for instance. People in Nintendo fanbases are now playing traditional fighters like KoF and Fatal Fury because of his introduction interesting them. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Geno is the same. We're going in circles here.

Geno isn't a franchise name, unfortunately. I believe most people on this thread can logically comprehend they're just supporting Geno because of the love for him, but not saying that he is as influential as all the new franchises added to Smash 5.

Yes, I know that Isaac, Ring Fit Trainer, Barbara or Akira could use a boost in popularity and Smash would give it to them. However, Geno is my most wanted. I don't really care about RFT, Barbara or Akira, although I do agree Isaac was done dirty. If you want to talk about how those guys need a boost in popularity, go to the RFT thread, Barbara thread or Akira thread. But this is the Geno thread, and whataboutting on other characters generally isn't necessary here.

Agin, I'm not doing comparison with specific characters, the point remains that "everyone wants to compete for their own good". The Geno thread is more about boosting supports and find ways for Geno to make it partically, not about "Geno needs it the most" argument.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Geno isn't a franchise name, unfortunately. I believe most people on this thread can logically comprehend they're just supporting Geno because of the love for him, but not saying that he is as influential as all the new franchises added to Smash 5.

Agin, I'm not doing comparison with specific characters, the point remains that "everyone wants to compete for their own good". The Geno thread is more about boosting supports and find ways for Geno to make it partically, not about "Geno needs it the most" argument.

It is true that we want Geno in Smash. We can't be faulted for using a board specifically for purpose of expressing that interest to do just that. Of course we are going to discuss his chances and of course we understand the hurdles that he faces. Geno is quite unique in Smash speculation despite some similarities to characters like Banjo (a less relevant character getting the pick over more relevant and bigger characters). Yes franchises are different than characters and Geno is not a playable character (he is a main character) so he is still different which is all the more reason to want for his inclusion since it would be a unique situation come to realization. Smash is just where all of Geno's popularity has pooled. I assume this is the result of overlapping player-bases.

Regardless this is the Geno thread on Smashboards where we push for him in Smash not in other games. Shocking I know but that is the reality of this very board. No matter how much doubt we have or what barricades we would like to place in the way, Geno has evidence that he could get into Smash circumstantial as it may be it is there. It doesn't guarantee anything, but we Geno fans are strong and have endured a long arduous wait so we will keep hoping and pushing for our star boy and many of us are already quite used to disappointment and need no reminders to keep expectations in check. We're just happy to actually have evidence to look at and things to talk about for once even if it doesn't amount to anything.

We have a resource for pushing for Geno in general. It is called Operation Starfall. Please don't try to educate us on how to push for a character when we already doing it through that. Educate yourself on Operation Starfall and how you can contribute your ideas and thoughts to it. For example, we organized a letter writing campaign where we were able to communicate to Nintendo our desire to see Geno in games again particularly Smash but not just restricted to Smash.

If you put your mind to it I'm sure we could design some campaigns to promote awareness of Geno and push for him more in areas beyond just Smash. Few people, myself included, have the ambition, time, resources, or know how to organize things through Operation Starfall, but the community seems rather supportive of Operation Starfall's objectives. Before the virus struck we had hit the 25% of our goal mark for the fundraiser for Starlight and even with the virus going on we've recently hit 50% of the goal which is nothing to scoff at even if it's not mind boggling numbers or directly reflecting on pushing for Geno. Take your own advice and focus your energy and time into something that may actually yield results. I realize I worded this rather harshly but I really am just saying it this way to hopefully challenge you to actually use your zeal to fuel something positive. I am going to take my own advice now and try to think of more ways we could champion for Geno through Operation Starfall, but I struggle to think of things outside of more letter writing campaigns.

 

[link2702]

Unrelated but assuming the 3D Mario remaster rumors are true I'd like it if all the content from Super Mario 64 DS was transferred as well

I kinda agree. Sm64 ds had lots of good extra ideas, that were all held back by a system that couldn’t handle it.

I wish they had waited until the 3ds for it, but I know they needed to have something out the gate for the ds.

I hope you get to choose which mode you want to play at the start, n64 original (with the updated graphics obviously) or ds remake.

 

[MattX20]

Mario's 35th anniversary probably means more good things for Geno's chances than bad I feel, so this June Direct should give us some worthwhile news

 

[Fatmanonice]

axel_ Sakurai's wording during the Banjo presentation seemed to imply that Banjo's presentation was recorded after Hero's was publicly shown, placing it in early August. Based on past patterns, this makes sense because presentations are usually recorded a month to two months out and this would have placed Banjo's presentation recording about a month before it was publicly shown.

On the topic of the potential significance of November for 7, it is quite a coincidence Cacomallow happened around this time. A common idea that I've pushed is that they probably had a few characters already in mind when Season 2 was greenlit in June. This five month gap is interesting because we know work had already started by August so, going with my proposed timeline, work on 6 probably started a month earlier than that, potentially suggesting that they were working on at least four different characters at the time but this currently can't be confirmed. If work on Season 2 had already started by August, it begs the question of what were they working on: 6 or something else?

 

[Polarthief]

If you put your mind to it I'm sure we could design some campaigns to promote awareness of Geno and push for him more in areas beyond just Smash.

This would just be the logical next step. Smash is your foot in the door. From there, you just push for other spin-offs and potentially even getting an SMRPG 2 or SMRPG remake/remaster if both Nintendo and Square listen enough. Not getting into Ultimate would probably be his downfall though.

But it's okay because he's gonna be in.

 

[TriggerX]

I don¨t get the idea of Waluigi and Geno both being added. If they want to cover their bases as well as possible... it makes no sense putting two characters from the same franchise... Yes, I know that they will have the 35 year anniversary, but with that logic, 6 would be Lyn (someone that has also been highly requested for a long time) concidering Fire Emblem has it¨s 30th year anniversary on Monday, and they will add to Zelda characters next year due to Zelda¨s 35-year-old anniversary next year concidering the high demand of Midna and especially Skull Kid.

A character from a pre-existing franchise? Sure. But two?.... Eeh, no

I completely agree. I doubt Waluigi will be playable, to have 3 dlc characters from the same franchise just seems unlikely. I think there will be some give.
Right now I would say that
Geno, Waluigi, and Paper Mario are in competition with eachother.

I don’t see both characters topping paper Mario at all if there is a remake or new entry on the horizon. People have been also talking about a Luigi’s Mansion rep, and unless Waluigi is in the game as a main villain or appears as dlc, I just don’t see it.

Besides the reaction to Byleth should have at least pushed the idea to Nintendo that people don’t like over representation of a series. If they’ve learned anything from that whole fiasco, they’ll avoid picking 2 “Mario reps”

Roy and Corrin were brought up as an example of this happening, but Roy was a bit of a freebie. He was a character that they were able to rapidly develop because of previous code and reused animations from the previous game as well as Marth from the current.
However, depending on how detailed some of these assist trophies are in terms of their 3D model and animations it may be possible to rapidly develop a character from them.

 

[MattX20]

axel_ Sakurai's wording during the Banjo presentation seemed to imply that Banjo's presentation was recorded after Hero's was publicly shown, placing it in early August. Based on past patterns, this makes sense because presentations are usually recorded a month to two months out and this would have placed Banjo's presentation recording about a month before it was publicly shown.

On the topic of the potential significance of November for 7, it is quite a coincidence Cacomallow happened around this time. A common idea that I've pushed is that they probably had a few characters already in mind when Season 2 was greenlit in June. This five month gap is interesting because we know work had already started by August so, going with my proposed timeline, work on 6 probably started a month earlier than that, potentially suggesting that they were working on at least four different characters at the time but this currently can't be confirmed. If work on Season 2 had already started by August, it begs the question of what were they working on: 6 or something else?

My guess is if they did start in August, chances are 6 and 7 at bare minimum were finalized conceptually as to who they would be in the pass.

 

[Polarthief]

Besides the reaction to Byleth should have at least pushed the idea to Nintendo that people don’t like over representation of a series. If they’ve learned anything from that whole fiasco, they’ll avoid picking 2 “Mario reps”

No, people don't like overrepresentation of a series that doesn't deserve it. Fire Emblem is puny compared to Mario and Pokemon; the fact that Sakurai has outright stated he thinks there's too many FE characters, as well as swordsmen (and women), proves that he's aware that people specifically don't want more FE because it's overrepresented, not Mario. If Sakurai knows, Nintendo sure as hell knows as well. Yet we live in a world where Mario has 9, Pokemon has 8 (10 w/ Squirtle/Ivysaur being separate), and FE has 8. Mario and Pokemon *DESTROY* FE in terms of how big a series is, and yet FE gets to be the 3rd most represented series, and so close to the bigger two, as well as more reps than Zelda??? Nah mate, that's not right, and everyone knows it.

There's also the fact that Geno and Waluigi are popular. Byleth existed for half a year to the public (in the form of the game releasing); I cannot imagine how few people were asking for them compared to the other two.

PS: Just in terms of sales of everything to a franchise, if Wikipedia is correct, I just discovered Sonic and DK are actually bigger than Zelda. Ouch.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I completely agree. I doubt Waluigi will be playable, to have 3 dlc characters from the same franchise just seems unlikely. I think there will be some give.
Right now I would say that
Geno, Waluigi, and Paper Mario are in competition with eachother.

I don’t see both characters topping paper Mario at all if there is a remake or new entry on the horizon. People have been also talking about a Luigi’s Mansion rep, and unless Waluigi is in the game as a main villain or appears as dlc, I just don’t see it.

Besides the reaction to Byleth should have at least pushed the idea to Nintendo that people don’t like over representation of a series. If they’ve learned anything from that whole fiasco, they’ll avoid picking 2 “Mario reps”

Roy and Corrin were brought up as an example of this happening, but Roy was a bit of a freebie. He was a character that they were able to rapidly develop because of previous code and reused animations from the previous game as well as Marth from the current.
However, depending on how detailed some of these assist trophies are in terms of their 3D model and animations it may be possible to rapidly develop a character from them.

For FE , it's less over representation , and more "Why do you keep giving us lords with a sword when they are ton of others classes and weapons in FE".

Byleth reaction was mostly negative because people were expecting a final third party , and we got an FE character instead.

Truth be told , if we had more varied FE characters , I'm sure the stigma against them would be less strong.

 

[Polarthief]

For FE , it's less over representation , and more "Why do you keep giving us lords with a sword when they are ton of others classes and weapons in FE".

This as well, though even if we got non-sword users, everyone would still complain. Hell I would too at this point. It's too late to add more unique FE characters. Byleth uses every non-magical weapon in Smash and the reaction was still negative.

Truth be told , if we had more varied FE characters , I'm sure the stigma against them would be less strong.

For sure, but that's a coulda-shoulda-woulda situation. It's far too late.

It would also help if the few who are different (Byleth, Robin, and Corrin) didn't also PRIMARILY WIELD A SWORD, like ffs. Robin is mostly magic in Smash, but they still wield a damn sword as their primary weapon. Doesn't matter it's a magic sword, it's still a freaking sword.

 

[Loliko YnT]

This as well, though even if we got non-sword users, everyone would still complain. Hell I would too at this point. It's too late to add more unique FE characters. Byleth uses every non-magical weapon in Smash and the reaction was still negative.



For sure, but that's a coulda-shoulda-woulda situation. It's far too late.

It would also help if the few who are different (Byleth, Robin, and Corrin) didn't also PRIMARILY WIELD A SWORD, like ffs. Robin is mostly magic in Smash, but they still wield a damn sword as their primary weapon. Doesn't matter it's a magic sword, it's still a freaking sword.

Yeah , I agree on all points.

It's just that , if after Marth/Roy , they added more varied FE characters , I'm sure the fanbase would enjoy their inclusion more.

 

[Vector Victor]

I completely agree. I doubt Waluigi will be playable, to have 3 dlc characters from the same franchise just seems unlikely. I think there will be some give.
Right now I would say that
Geno, Waluigi, and Paper Mario are in competition with eachother.

I don’t see both characters topping paper Mario at all if there is a remake or new entry on the horizon. People have been also talking about a Luigi’s Mansion rep, and unless Waluigi is in the game as a main villain or appears as dlc, I just don’t see it.

Besides the reaction to Byleth should have at least pushed the idea to Nintendo that people don’t like over representation of a series. If they’ve learned anything from that whole fiasco, they’ll avoid picking 2 “Mario reps”

Roy and Corrin were brought up as an example of this happening, but Roy was a bit of a freebie. He was a character that they were able to rapidly develop because of previous code and reused animations from the previous game as well as Marth from the current.
However, depending on how detailed some of these assist trophies are in terms of their 3D model and animations it may be possible to rapidly develop a character from them.

Mario and Pokemon are more forgiven due to being the face of video games and one of the biggest franchises on earth. So they get more (begrudging) acceptance of getting characters, although Pokemon gets more complaints as they have this placeholder style going where a character is guaranteed, which rubs people the wrong way as that comes off more as shilling rather than a fan favorite.

Overrepresentation complaints come from popular but smaller series getting more characters than can be fan justified, especially if other similar or more popular series get skipped for characters. Right now, FE is in the middle of this issue which is why there was so much backlash (plus the lack of variety and putting FE among big name 3rd parties again and behind DLC. It comes off as Nintendo overinflating its importance). But before them, there were saturation complaints on Kid Icarus, Star Fox, Zelda (back when Zelda used to get characters), Kirby (although that was more of the SSE in Brawl). Oh, Dark Pit was a major complaint for people during 4. Kid Icarus, a small series, getting a 3rd character before bigger franchises like Metroid and DK getting a third, really annoyed people and made Dark Pit hated (that, on top of all the attention KI got in 4) Then FE had a population explosion.

Its possible that since its Mario that they could dip into the series twice for this pass, or with a bonus fighter. And maybe Nintendo doesn't care if there is backlash with repeated series. If they cared, then they wouldn't have repeated almost to the letter Corrin's derisive debut with Byleth.

Nintendo can have their fingers on the fanfom pulse and know exactly what to offer. Other times, they can be so tonedeaf to their surroundings almost to parody levels.

What I'm saying is, character 7 is a tiny Waluigi pilotting a Geno mech.

 

[Datboigeno]

When I say Ballot I mean he actual Smash Ballot you could respond to on the website. There are hundreds of polls out there so it's impossible to aggregate all of them. This is why it took till the official ballot to get some of the characters.

Again, and I see a few people mentioning that Geno is popular or Sakurai wants him in, but we don't ever see him get in. You can say he was stonewalled but they were made to make him a spirit, so they can use him in some regard. I wouldn't put much weight into what Sakurai says as it has yet to result in the character being added. On Waluigi, it's irrelevant as the point is Waluigi would be a big name character for E3 and Nintendo would request them. I don't think Sakurai would turn it down if they asked.

This is just silly. Literally no one has publicly released the actual official ballot results. The most people have done is guess based on what characters either were made into DLC for Smash 4, mii costumes for Smash 4, or made it into Ultimate. You have no evidence that Waluigi in fact got a substantial amount of votes within the official ballot.

Yeah, we haven't gotten Geno in yet. But we could. He's only in the game as a spirit. Waluigi is a assist trophy. So really that's not a victory for Waluigi. You're not putting weight into what the actual creator and creative lead of the game says? Seriously? When in the past his comments of character popularity have in fact resulted in newcomers down the line? The cognitive dissonance here is amazing. You're simply choosing to ignore the things that work out for Geno and stubbornly sticking to the idea that Waluigi is a "big name" and therefore an automatic pick for Nintendo. Guess what? Nintendo isn't choosing characters based off of only who is a "big name". They make a list and Sakurai picks from said list. If Nintendo presented Sakurai with a list including Waluigi and Geno who do you genuinely think he'd pick? The character he's tried to get in the series for over a decade who he's literally said has huge moveset potential or the character he's basically said next to nothing about and eventually made an AT in SSBU? He's not going to care if Nintendofans.gov had ran an interview and the interviewer mentioned wanting Waluigi.

 

[SmashChu]

This is just silly. Literally no one has publicly released the actual official ballot results. The most people have done is guess based on what characters either were made into DLC for Smash 4, mii costumes for Smash 4, or made it into Ultimate. You have no evidence that Waluigi in fact got a substantial amount of votes within the official ballot.

Not sure what this has to do with my original point. Sakurai has said which characters got int Smash based on the ballot (Simon, K Rool and Ridley). I never claimed that Waluigi got a lot of votes or what not in the ballot. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the characters Nintendo picks and they see as popular are the ones that draw their attention. That's why I'm bringing up the ballot.

Yeah, we haven't gotten Geno in yet. But we could. He's only in the game as a spirit. Waluigi is a assist trophy. So really that's not a victory for Waluigi. You're not putting weight into what the actual creator and creative lead of the game says? Seriously? When in the past his comments of character popularity have in fact resulted in newcomers down the line? The cognitive dissonance here is amazing. You're simply choosing to ignore the things that work out for Geno and stubbornly sticking to the idea that Waluigi is a "big name" and therefore an automatic pick for Nintendo. Guess what? Nintendo isn't choosing characters based off of only who is a "big name". They make a list and Sakurai picks from said list. If Nintendo presented Sakurai with a list including Waluigi and Geno who do you genuinely think he'd pick? The character he's tried to get in the series for over a decade who he's literally said has huge moveset potential or the character he's basically said next to nothing about and eventually made an AT in SSBU? He's not going to care if Nintendofans.gov had ran an interview and the interviewer mentioned wanting Waluigi.

The reason I'm not putting weight into Sakurai's comment is because despite him saying that, Geno hasn't been added as a playable character. They added him as a Mii Costume and they added him as a Spirit. So his comments and his actions don't line up. Given the opportunity to add Geno, he hasn't done it. Aside, but looking back at the Geno costume announcement, it strikes me as being the same as Sans or Cuphead. They know this character is popular but they have no intention of adding him to the game so he becomes a costume instead.

With Waluigi, what I'm saying is I think Nintendo would see him as a big deal and say that he should be in. It would get people talking and might build some excitement. The only issue is the Assist Trophy thing, so how much that is a factor for Nintendo and Sakurai we don't know. Your response is assuming a lot. Nintendo is picking the DLC. That's all we know. So there is no reason to say they can't or wont go to Sakurai with a specific request. Bold comment is exceptionally silly. These were two large outlets (Kotaku and Vice) speaking to the head of Nintendo of America asking where's Waluigi. This is going to get their attention more than post on a message board.

 

[Polarthief]

Yeah , I agree on all points.

It's just that , if after Marth/Roy , they added more varied FE characters , I'm sure the fanbase would enjoy their inclusion more.

Yeah that's what I meant. *IF* they did, but we're talking Brawl/Sm4sh, which means it's obviously too late. They could add an Axe+Bow-only (Warrior class) character, and they'd still be hated cuz REE FE. They also really did get enough rep in this game. Already over-repped and they got an additional 2 characters (Chrom in base, Byleth in FP1).

You have no evidence that Waluigi in fact got a substantial amount of votes within the official ballot.

I have to agree here. Honestly, while the Internet memes Waluigi pretty hard, I do feel like most of his genuine love has been recent, and it definitely surged when he got deconfirmed. I feel like people just assumed he would be in by the next game and so they likely voted for their favorite third party characters instead as to "not waste their vote". PS: This is also inherently the problem with first-past-the-post voting systems.

 

[StarLight42]

Im pretty sure Waluigi probably didn’t do well in the ballot

but then again, neither did Ridley

both were AT/bosses in the game that most Smash fans thought the ballot was actually going to be used for

Waluigi’s heavy support for Smash has been more recent, probably, but the character has always had his fans. Wah memes have been popular since around 2010

 

[Polarthief]

Im pretty sure Waluigi probably didn’t do well in the ballot

but then again, neither did Ridley

both were AT/bosses in the game that most Smash fans thought the ballot was actually going to be used for

Waluigi’s heavy support for Smash has been more recent, probably, but the character has always had his fans. Wah memes have been popular since around 2010

I honestly doubt any* first party character did well TBH for the reasons I said about Wah: People would just assume they'd get in. I doubt Zelda characters did well, including favorites like SK and Midna.

* I'm not counting "second" parties, such as Pokemon**, Golden Sun, etc. Yeah they're only on Nintendo to the point where people consider them first party, and I believe they're partially or even fully owned by Nintendo, but they're not made by Nintendo.

** I doubt any Pokemon did well, but I only used Pokemon as an example of "second parties".

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Not sure what this has to do with my original point. Sakurai has said which characters got int Smash based on the ballot (Simon, K Rool and Ridley). I never claimed that Waluigi got a lot of votes or what not in the ballot. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the characters Nintendo picks and they see as popular are the ones that draw their attention. That's why I'm bringing up the ballot.


The reason I'm not putting weight into Sakurai's comment is because despite him saying that, Geno hasn't been added as a playable character. They added him as a Mii Costume and they added him as a Spirit. So his comments and his actions don't line up. Given the opportunity to add Geno, he hasn't done it. Aside, but looking back at the Geno costume announcement, it strikes me as being the same as Sans or Cuphead. They know this character is popular but they have no intention of adding him to the game so he becomes a costume instead.

With Waluigi, what I'm saying is I think Nintendo would see him as a big deal and say that he should be in. It would get people talking and might build some excitement. The only issue is the Assist Trophy thing, so how much that is a factor for Nintendo and Sakurai we don't know. Your response is assuming a lot. Nintendo is picking the DLC. That's all we know. So there is no reason to say they can't or wont go to Sakurai with a specific request. Bold comment is exceptionally silly. These were two large outlets (Kotaku and Vice) speaking to the head of Nintendo of America asking where's Waluigi. This is going to get their attention more than post on a message board.

Question: anyone in here actually think Nintendo is going to come here and look at our comments and Geno will get in Smash because of that? No? No one? Really? Huh. Don't be an idiot. No one talks here thinking their posts will affect Geno's chances in Smash or that is how Nintendo will be aware of his popularity. He has plenty more instances that demonstrate his popularity and evidence backing him up. Maybe he will stay a png or get recostumed, but he could also be playable because Nintendo and Sakurai are aware of the fan demand. I don't understand why you keep saying "a post on a message board" you literally just sound desperate to be contrary. As for Geno not being in the game yet, there are things outside of Sakurai's control and even Nintendo's control. Saying if he really wanted Geno then he'd be in is not true nor is it true for any character since companies can refuse or ask too much for the rights. And Sakurai has gone on record to give reasons why characters can't get in or why he doesn't want to include them like Villager and Ridley so believing he would just lie about Geno is ridiculous. I just see sheer paranoia and conspiracy theories when I see ideas like this and people think WE are the crazy ones.


On another note, I was thinking it might be cool to do some more creative stuff. I was thinking about writing short stories from the perspective of Geno after the events of SMRPG and how his life feels unfulfilling now that he's experienced friendship and heart racing battles and the contrast between granting people's wishes but feeling unfulfilled himself. It could be cool to do stuff like that and maybe work in some cameos from other characters for fun especially unexpected ones. If I were more artistically inclined I'd create comic strips or something like that. Since I'm not on social media I'll share them here so they can be critiqued then maybe collectively we can find ways to share them and people can add to the narrative and stuff.

 

[Polarthief]

Question: anyone in here actually think Nintendo is going to come here and look at our comments and Geno will get in Smash because of that? No? No one? Really? Huh. Don't be an idiot. No one talks here thinking their posts will affect Geno's chances in Smash or that is how Nintendo will be aware of his popularity.

While I obs don't think individual posts are read, I wouldn't be surprised if someone at Nintendo at least took a peek at the support threads page/post count and went "huh, Geno sure is a massive outlier". Even that I don't fully believe, but again, wouldn't be surprised if it was a thing. But no, there's no way they're actually reading these posts.

I don't understand why you keep saying "a post on a message board" you literally just sound desperate to be contrary.

It is kinda weird how people come to a SUPPORT THREAD and be super contrarian, almost like they're actually a detractor of the character to begin with. Some people play Devil's Advocate for the sake of debunking arguments against Geno, which does spur some really great discussion and debates; I'm obviously not talking about those people, but there's a handful of around 3~5 semi-regular posters in here that for whatever reason keep downplaying his chances, sometimes with GameFAQ-level reasons. Some even went as far as to say Spirits Deconfirm, and it just makes me want to reach through my monitor to smack them. I more than welcome a debate or argument that has actual logic and reason behind it, but when someone comes in here saying "Geno won't happen because X", that's not a discussion, that's you shouting on your LiveBlog that happens to be a forum that other people read and write in too.

As for Geno not being in the game yet, there are things outside of Sakurai's control and even Nintendo's control. Saying if he really wanted Geno then he'd be in is not true nor is it true for any character since companies can refuse or ask too much for the rights.

This right here, this is why I don't see Sora coming; I do not see Disney giving up anything for a reasonable price. They're one of the most notorious companies that keep pushing the limits on copyright for obvious reason.

And Sakurai has gone on record to give reasons why characters can't get in or why he doesn't want to include them like Villager and Ridley so believing he would just lie about Geno is ridiculous. I just see sheer paranoia and conspiracy theories when I see ideas like this and people think WE are the crazy ones.

Preeeetty much. Sakurai outright lying to people... I don't see that. There could be mistranslations, but no, he wouldn't just lie. The man has no reason to.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai at most can post statements that are a bit vague, but he doesn't really outright lie. He might do a white lie once in a blue moon for the purpose of the presentation as a joke(Zero Suit Samus' joke cut), but he's an honest man.

 

[Organization XIII]

I honestly doubt any* first party character did well TBH for the reasons I said about Wah: People would just assume they'd get in. I doubt Zelda characters did well, including favorites like SK and Midna.

* I'm not counting "second" parties, such as Pokemon**, Golden Sun, etc. Yeah they're only on Nintendo to the point where people consider them first party, and I believe they're partially or even fully owned by Nintendo, but they're not made by Nintendo.

** I doubt any Pokemon did well, but I only used Pokemon as an example of "second parties".

Nah dude. The ballot was before Cloud and Joker who proved and the later cemented that Nintendo history doesn't matter. Prior to that 3rd parties took a back seat to Nintendo characters as most of the Nintendo related 3rd parties were already in. Besides we know first parties did well just based on K Rool getting in. As well as how other properties were treated outside playable. Unless you count K Rool as second party as well since your criteria is a little wonky for what second party is.

 

[Polarthief]

Sakurai at most can post statements that are a bit vague, but he doesn't really outright lie. He might do a white lie once in a blue moon for the purpose of the presentation as a joke(Zero Suit Samus' joke cut), but he's an honest man.

Well yeah, if he doesn't want to leak something, that makes sense. Also you never want to sound like you're promising anything and then not do it.

The ballot was before Cloud and Joker who proved and the later cemented that Nintendo history doesn't matter.

I... what?

Prior to that 3rd parties took a back seat to Nintendo characters as most of the Nintendo related 3rd parties were already in.

Well yeah, typically they're gonna add more first parties because they don't cost a thing.

Besides we know first parties did well just based on K Rool getting in. As well as how other properties were treated outside playable.

Was KKR added explicitly because of the ballot or because they were aware of the fan demand for him?

Unless you count K Rool as second party as well since your criteria is a little wonky for what second party is.

K Rool I don't actually know what he was back in the day (did Nintendo always own him?); as of now, he is first party though. Also yeah, second party isn't exactly clear; it's never been. Pokemon is one of the best examples because while Nintendo doesn't entirely own Pokemon, it's always associated with Nintendo-only (since Nintendo does have a partial ownership of TPC). That said, I believe Nintendo has never once actually developed a Pokemon game (if they did, it was spin-off only since only GF has ever done the primary development of the mainline series). It's essentially some combination of first and third party as weird as that is. Regardless though, K Rool, when added, is an effectively dead, first party Nintendo IP. Nintendo 100% owns him plain and simple.