Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Dukefire]

We got another 2 months to wait before a ARMS rep arrives as Challenger 6 and hopefully with challenger 7 after.

 

[ActualGarbage]

Wow, I can't believe the entirety of SmashBoards decided to stan Crash Bandicoot for Smash, even in the Geno thread. I guess everyone does love a little orange marsupial in their life.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

We got another 2 months to wait before a ARMS rep arrives as Challenger 6 and hopefully with challenger 7 after.

I think it is guaranteed that we will see the 7th in the June Direct, hopefully is our boi

 

[RuffyYoshi]

Crash and Geno are in my opinion the final two fighters that are ESSENTIAL to make Smash Ultimate complete. Everyone else is an awesome bonus.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Crash and Geno are in my opinion the final two fighters that are ESSENTIAL to make Smash Ultimate complete. Everyone else is an awesome bonus.

the same thing happens to me, a character from my childhool (crash) and one of the characters from my favorite game of all time(geno)

 

[Polarthief]

Polarthief If I remember correctly, the first instance of PM3 talk occured last September. Zippo said that he was surprised it was not revealed in the September 2019 direct. So, i’m not sure if he had been talking about it prior to that or not.

He first started talking about it being a true RPG in January, though.

People give him **** over the two directs in February thing but I think he still has surprisingly a lot under his belt. I distinctly remember he asked ResetERA how they would feel about a Mario 64 remake like two weeks before these rumors come out. (I’ll grab the post if ya’ll want)

i’ve spoken with him a few times on resetera and he always seems positive and enthusiastic in his replies. I still can’t see how or why he would’ve wanted to troll resetera. He’s been a community member there for a long time.

Thank you, and yeah, if it's been around for September and it's STILL being talked about, I really don't think that it's fake at this point.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Never touched a Crash game, have no idea what he or his games are about, but the more I look at these avatars and peoples' love for him, the more I'm kinda passively rooting for him TBH. If he got in, I might look into the trilogy, and I wouldn't be annoyed or angry at his inclusion (granted if I get Geno, anyone after that doesn't even matter, haha). Here's hoping you get your two top boys.

Don't get me wrong the Crash games are great and they are fun but there are issues with infuriating hitboxes and stuff like that that were not really addressed in the N Sane Trilogy and in general the games are relatively difficult altho somehow I was much better at them when I was much younger. CTR is an excellent alternative to Mario Kart if you like Kart racer games and is also more difficult but really really fun and it's easy to ignore the microtransactions in Nitro Fueled imo.

If you looked at Banjo and thought he looked like he would be fun in Smash then there's no way you'd look at Crash without the same thought. Crash is absolutely that wacky mascot character that would bring an...unconventional and hilarious moveset to Smash. My top 3 are Geno > Rayman > Crash so I may be a little biased tho.

 

[Polarthief]

If you looked at Banjo and thought he looked like he would be fun in Smash then there's no way you'd look at Crash without the same thought.

TBH I never reeeeally cared about how a character I wanted in played. Banjo & Kazooie I wanted in because they were part of my childhood. I don't care they're not the most fun DLC character; they're in the game and that's good enough for me. What's funny though is all the characters I don't really care about end up being fun and my "mains". Inb4 Geno is like virtually unplayable, but I'll still be happy as can be because he finally made it.

But yeah, from my limited Crash knowledge, he seems like he'd be a wacky kind of character to bring a very odd kit in.

 

[Kremling Kommander]

What a coincidence that one of the characters in my Top 5 most wanted ends up being this thread’s April Fools Joke.
With that said, Crash would definitely be an amazing inclusion. He’s also a great guy and supports Geno too!

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

TBH I never reeeeally cared about how a character I wanted in played. Banjo & Kazooie I wanted in because they were part of my childhood. I don't care they're not the most fun DLC character; they're in the game and that's good enough for me. What's funny though is all the characters I don't really care about end up being fun and my "mains". Inb4 Geno is like virtually unplayable, but I'll still be happy as can be because he finally made it.

But yeah, from my limited Crash knowledge, he seems like he'd be a wacky kind of character to bring a very odd kit in.

Yeah I know what you mean. I actually found B&K the most fun to play out of DLC but I'm not a competitive player or anything, but I actually have no connection to him but I did want him in for his fans. Conversely Ridely was my number 2 and he's just virtually unplayable for me but I'm still elated that he's in.

 

[SmashChu]

Just want to clarify something since I've been arguing about video game characters. I don't hate Geno or don't want to see him in. Would be happy to see him in the game. The issue is, truth be told, I really don't see it happening. Hopefully I'm wrong, but who knows. Geno has been snuffed a lot.

Because all the mainstays of the franchise are here. Why would they care who else they could put in after a low-level mook of a plant that is so common that practically nobody has ever subconsciously thought of their existence?

Just because all the mainstay character are here doesn't mean Nintendo will add a niche character like Geno. Again, the Mario cast is pretty large and there are a lot of characters to pick from, even ones more popular than Geno. I've noticed this in the discussion is there is this weird assumption that because there are some mainstay characters in Smash that somehow justifies Geno. In truth, it's completely unrelated.

Yeah, cuz Richter and King K. Rool were definitely a household name.

Both of these were added from the Ballot. Sakurai has stated the DLC is not based on that. Even still, K Rool was the DK's Bowser and Richter was just an echo of Simon (the main character of Castlevania). Again, doesn't really justify Geno

I never said Nintendo doesn't pick promotional picks. They do. What I'm saying is that they've also picked characters that aren't. If you can argue Nintendo will do a promotional pick again because they've done it in the past, then the flip side is that I can also argue that Nintendo can also pick characters that don't necessarily boost them in a huge way. I'm saying that the idea of Nintendo doing another promotional pick isn't enough to put Geno out of the running at all because they've also done non promotional picks. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant

I'm not a big fan of breaking up post as the meaning often gets lost but for this one it's going to make it easier. I'll try my best to keep it in focus.

The point I'm saying is it doesn't matter if Nintendo sometimes adds characters outside of promotions. I'm only interested on if they have done and thus could do it again.
Can Nintendo Add a Promotional Pick
Yes
Can Nintendo Add a Mario character to Promote Mario's 35th Anniversary
Yes
That's all that needs to be said on that.

And to address Geno not being a main cast character, and not screaming 35th Anniversary, that hardly matters. Mario has done more than just platformer games. The Mario RPGs are a section of Mario that are constantly talked about online. I could also argue it's just as important to celebrate all aspects of Mario, not just the main ones. Geno is also arguably the most predicted character for Volume 2. Many prominent YouTubers have brought him up and he still is relatively high on fan polls. Believe it or not, but Nintendo does pay attention to this group. And as shown time and time again, they have catered to it. They can easily cater to this group again for Mario's 35th anniversary. They can sway ether way, and along as that's the case Geno is still on the table as a potential Mario rep

The Mario RPGs don't sell nearly as well as Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Sports, and both the 2D and 3D games. Most of these games sell several million. Super Mario Party has sold over 9 million. Luigi's Mansion sold 5 million. The Mario RPG games sell about 2 million. This was true of Paper and Mario and Luigi. The best information I can find on Super Mario RPG is it sold 2 million. There is a reason Nintendo hasn't added a lot from the Mario RPG games and it's because it's always been a side thing. If we take this idea that Nintendo will use Smash to promote Mario's 35th Anniversary, they wouldn't be looking at the RPG side.

To continue with this point, the main problem with the argument that Nintendo would put a more recognizable character over a niche one is that there's already been a similar case of this happening specifically with Microsoft. Nintendo collaborated with them to include a character of theirs in Smash. If we're following your logic, then they would go for someone "recognizable". Someone general that has appeared in many games. Sounds a lot more like Steve or Master Chief rather than Banjo. Guess which one got in? It's not exactly the same scenario, but it's proof that yes, Nintendo can pick whoever they want regardless of relevance. Sakurai himself stated it's more important if a character is more fun to play rather if they are relevant or not. I have no clue why people keep using relevancy as a point against Geno

Mario having a bunch of recognizable characters doesn't justify a niche character should be added sure, but it certainly makes it easier for a niche character to be added when all the major players are already in. That's why I'm saying that I don't think Nintendo would be extremely hesitant on Geno because they already have a lot of major Mario characters, so one niche one won't hurt them in anyway. Especially since it's Mario and you can literally slap it on anything and it will be a guaranteed success

Also I never said Nintendo doesn't appeal to the general audience at all. You must've misread. What I said was:
Key word being specifically. Meaning that they do cater the general audience, just not with every single pick. If Nintendo was concerned about whether or not every character was recognizable to the general public, then why go for Banjo over Steve? Why choose Terry? And Joker? Those are not picks that I would describe as "general audience picks". And as long as that's the case, then there isn't exactly any major roadblocks for Geno getting in

First, just because Nintendo has added more obscure characters doesn't mean they will in this situation. If the goal is that Nintendo will promote the anniversary, why do they want a niche character. I feel like the conversation is they could. Not that they should.

Now, your second point is going a bit of the rails since the point is that Nintendo is promoting the Mario series and they'd want to add a character people will see and say "Oh, yeah, I know them." Regardless:

One problem I've noticed with Geno supporters (here and elsewhere) is they tend to equate Geno with other niche characters when the comparison doesn't make sense. It's present in the conversation. "Why about Terry? They chose Banjo over Steve. What about King K Rool." OK. Let's think about this.

• Terry is a major character of Final Fight and King of Fighters. While niche, the series has been around for years. He is still in new games.
• King K Rool was the main villain of the DK games until the mid-2000s. Up until then, he'd appear as the antagonist of every title. Nintendo retired him but clearly didn't realize his popularity.
• Banjo was the star of his own game which sold well and were highly acclaimed. It's often re-released as well
• Joker is from Persona 5 which is the best selling game in the series and is highly acclaimed. This one is a massive stretch

Now actually look at Geno. He has been in a single title. You can't say that about any of the characters above (even Joker). He wasn't the star of his own game. He was a side character. Even still, among the pantheon of Mario games, he was in one of the lower selling games (we're talking about a series where the main games often break 10 million). So, when you consider this, you can see why Nintendo has been reluctant to add him. Moreover, it's clear why Nintendo wouldn't want to use Geno to promote their 35th Anniversary in Smash.

Geno is really riding on community support only and this is the problem. If you're trying to do something high profile as what Nintendo was planning, Geno doesn't cut it. Even compared to other Mario characters, it's not favorable to Geno. As an example, Reddit ran a massive poll with over 6,500 votes (perhaps the best sample size). The most popular character was Waluigi with 1,666 votes, Paper Mario has 571, Captain Toad had 579 and Geno only had 317. When you consider Geno is more popular in Smash Bros circles this doesn't bode well for him. If Nintendo wanted to add a Mario character that would be known by the average person but also one that appeals to fans, they go with Waluigi. Again, why would Nintendo add Geno to promote the series when they have characters that do that and Smash fans like.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Now, your second point is going a bit of the rails since the point is that Nintendo is promoting the Mario series and they'd want to add a character people will see and say "Oh, yeah, I know them." Regardless:

One problem I've noticed with Geno supporters (here and elsewhere) is they tend to equate Geno with other niche characters when the comparison doesn't make sense. It's present in the conversation. "Why about Terry? They chose Banjo over Steve. What about King K Rool." OK. Let's think about this.

• Terry is a major character of Final Fight and King of Fighters. While niche, the series has been around for years. He is still in new games.
• King K Rool was the main villain of the DK games until the mid-2000s. Up until then, he'd appear as the antagonist of every title. Nintendo retired him but clearly didn't realize his popularity.
• Banjo was the star of his own game which sold well and were highly acclaimed. It's often re-released as well
• Joker is from Persona 5 which is the best selling game in the series and is highly acclaimed. This one is a massive stretch

Now actually look at Geno. He has been in a single title. You can't say that about any of the characters above (even Joker). He wasn't the star of his own game. He was a side character. Even still, among the pantheon of Mario games, he was in one of the lower selling games (we're talking about a series where the main games often break 10 million). So, when you consider this, you can see why Nintendo has been reluctant to add him. Moreover, it's clear why Nintendo wouldn't want to use Geno to promote their 35th Anniversary in Smash.

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

 

[Icewolff92]

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

While I do agree with you in general that Geno certainly has a big shot, you are certainly missing a key element. Outside of Corrin, and now Arms, your listed "niche" characters were all in the base game. They never joined (sure Roy and Lucas were DLC in Smash4, but you get what I mean) through the means of DLC. Your argument would have worked better if you mentioned Banjo, even though his games got a worldwide release compared to SMRPG who never saw the store shelf outside of Japan and America. The only reason I (I live in Sweden) even knew about Geno before I started with Smash speculation was that I found the game randomly on Wii¨s Virtual Console. When I first played Super Star Saga, I literally thought he was just some random mascot for that mini-game.

Also, let say that we are getting a Mario character with the 35th-year-old anniversary. Who would be the biggest splash joining? The purple clothed plumber that even got the attention of WSJ and have been in countless spinoffs, some selling better than others or the lovable puppet that could have been more of a household name would Nintendo and Square not parted ways the way the did back during the N64 era. If I would have a gun to my head forced to answer who I think is the most likely before the last character is revealed (the notion that Geno has to be next or he is not in is quite silly to me), then I would say Geno when it comes to a character from the Mario universe. But I can¨t deny that if we knew that if we are getting a Smash character during the Mario celebration, my money would be on someone like Waluigi instead. Someone that is one of (if not the) face of the spinoffs. As much as I hate to say it, but Geno does not scream "celebration of the entire brand" in a general sense, even though I love the character.

Btw, you show a picture of the Piranha Plant and pretty much everyone knows who you talk about. While he is certainly generic it is a well-known enemy.

 

[Sovereign Trinity]

He's Crash, you're Crash, I'm Crash. Are there anymore Crashes I should know about?!

 

[TriggerX]

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

Honestly I wouldn’t give too much credit to echo characters. They add on to the roster, but they are pretty much just added as freebies. It’s definitely not the same as developing a new character which would definitely need more resources to accomplish. They are literally just copying the code over from one character to the echo. Even setting up the animations is probably done with a click of a button depending on the software.

As far as Geno being a side character... I kind of look at it like FF7 Tifa and Cloud. So it’s debateable.

Unfortunately SMRPG is a bit niche, but same thing with Crono Trigger.
It’s not a game that would be guaranteed to move units or is well known.
For example Megaman X sold less on the SNES but it’s a series that everyone is familiar with due to its longevity. Lol Although megaman x probably won’t move units either.
Overall there are plenty of games that are niche that sold well, but unfortunately due to discontinuity remain niche in popularity.

 

[SSGuy]

Honestly I wouldn’t give too much credit to echo characters. They add on to the roster, but they are pretty much just added as freebies. It’s definitely not the same as developing a new character which would definitely need more resources to accomplish. They are literally just copying the code over from one character to the echo. Even setting up the animations is probably done with a click of a button depending on the software.

As far as Geno being a side character... I kind of look at it like FF7 Tifa and Cloud. So it’s debateable.

Unfortunately SMRPG is a bit niche, but same thing with Crono Trigger.
It’s not a game that would be guaranteed to move units or is well known.
For example Megaman X sold less on the SNES but it’s a series that everyone is familiar with due to its longevity. Lol Although megaman x probably won’t move units either.
Overall there are plenty of games that are niche that sold well, but unfortunately due to discontinuity remain niche in popularity.

I do agree with you on Mega Man X. As beloved as that franchise does, it never really performs as well as Classic Mega Man does which is why Capcom has seemed to remain with the classic series more than anything.

However, I don't know if I could agree with you regarding Super Mario RPG not pushing units. Paper Mario and M&L are still a cut of the same cloth, it does look to be a formula/genre that does seem to push units. However, unfortunate circumstances is what prevented Geno from being apart of that continued success.

 

[axel_]

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

Gonna bet 500 bits that he won't reply to this. Or will cherrypick really hard.

He's Crash, you're Crash, I'm Crash. Are there anymore Crashes I should know about?!

He's Crash, She's Crash, You're Crash I'M CRASH.

ARE THERE ANY MORE PEOPLE NAME CRASH AROUND HERE!?!?!

 

[Lagguino]

He's Crash, She's Crash, You're Crash I'M CRASH.

ARE THERE ANY MORE PEOPLE NAME CRASH AROUND HERE!?!?!

 

[AugustusB]

Woah....I have ascended to CRASH-HOOD

 

[waterhasataste]

Just want to clarify something since I've been arguing about video game characters. I don't hate Geno or don't want to see him in. Would be happy to see him in the game. The issue is, truth be told, I really don't see it happening. Hopefully I'm wrong, but who knows. Geno has been snuffed a lot.

Just because all the mainstay character are here doesn't mean Nintendo will add a niche character like Geno. Again, the Mario cast is pretty large and there are a lot of characters to pick from, even ones more popular than Geno. I've noticed this in the discussion is there is this weird assumption that because there are some mainstay characters in Smash that somehow justifies Geno. In truth, it's completely unrelated.

Both of these were added from the Ballot. Sakurai has stated the DLC is not based on that. Even still, K Rool was the DK's Bowser and Richter was just an echo of Simon (the main character of Castlevania). Again, doesn't really justify Geno


I'm not a big fan of breaking up post as the meaning often gets lost but for this one it's going to make it easier. I'll try my best to keep it in focus.

The point I'm saying is it doesn't matter if Nintendo sometimes adds characters outside of promotions. I'm only interested on if they have done and thus could do it again.
Can Nintendo Add a Promotional Pick
Yes
Can Nintendo Add a Mario character to Promote Mario's 35th Anniversary
Yes
That's all that needs to be said on that.

The Mario RPGs don't sell nearly as well as Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Sports, and both the 2D and 3D games. Most of these games sell several million. Super Mario Party has sold over 9 million. Luigi's Mansion sold 5 million. The Mario RPG games sell about 2 million. This was true of Paper and Mario and Luigi. The best information I can find on Super Mario RPG is it sold 2 million. There is a reason Nintendo hasn't added a lot from the Mario RPG games and it's because it's always been a side thing. If we take this idea that Nintendo will use Smash to promote Mario's 35th Anniversary, they wouldn't be looking at the RPG side.

First, just because Nintendo has added more obscure characters doesn't mean they will in this situation. If the goal is that Nintendo will promote the anniversary, why do they want a niche character. I feel like the conversation is they could. Not that they should.

Now, your second point is going a bit of the rails since the point is that Nintendo is promoting the Mario series and they'd want to add a character people will see and say "Oh, yeah, I know them." Regardless:

One problem I've noticed with Geno supporters (here and elsewhere) is they tend to equate Geno with other niche characters when the comparison doesn't make sense. It's present in the conversation. "Why about Terry? They chose Banjo over Steve. What about King K Rool." OK. Let's think about this.

• Terry is a major character of Final Fight and King of Fighters. While niche, the series has been around for years. He is still in new games.
• King K Rool was the main villain of the DK games until the mid-2000s. Up until then, he'd appear as the antagonist of every title. Nintendo retired him but clearly didn't realize his popularity.
• Banjo was the star of his own game which sold well and were highly acclaimed. It's often re-released as well
• Joker is from Persona 5 which is the best selling game in the series and is highly acclaimed. This one is a massive stretch

Now actually look at Geno. He has been in a single title. You can't say that about any of the characters above (even Joker). He wasn't the star of his own game. He was a side character. Even still, among the pantheon of Mario games, he was in one of the lower selling games (we're talking about a series where the main games often break 10 million). So, when you consider this, you can see why Nintendo has been reluctant to add him. Moreover, it's clear why Nintendo wouldn't want to use Geno to promote their 35th Anniversary in Smash.

Geno is really riding on community support only and this is the problem. If you're trying to do something high profile as what Nintendo was planning, Geno doesn't cut it. Even compared to other Mario characters, it's not favorable to Geno. As an example, Reddit ran a massive poll with over 6,500 votes (perhaps the best sample size). The most popular character was Waluigi with 1,666 votes, Paper Mario has 571, Captain Toad had 579 and Geno only had 317. When you consider Geno is more popular in Smash Bros circles this doesn't bode well for him. If Nintendo wanted to add a Mario character that would be known by the average person but also one that appeals to fans, they go with Waluigi. Again, why would Nintendo add Geno to promote the series when they have characters that do that and Smash fans like.

So I'm going to try and address most of the points you've made, but rather than break down point by point, I'm going to discuss the main center of the argument here since doing it point by point takes too long for me personally (though uh, looking back now, that didn't really matter in the end lol) and I don't feel it would be cohesive. I'm just going to explain why I don't personally find this argument convincing

Your main argument is that Nintendo would prioritize a more general Mario character over Geno for the 35th Anniversary because said character would be more recognizable, and more promotable and that there are characters that satisfy both the casual and diehard Smash group

To start off, yes, the 35th anniversary is a big deal, but if Nintendo decides to allow a more niche character or heck even no Mario character this year, they really won't be suffering ether way. They aren't going to lose a bunch of sales on whatever Mario game gets released this year just because they didn't put a more relevant Mario character in Smash. The Mario titles will still preform well regardless. Does this justify Geno's inclusion? No, it doesn't, but my point is, is that I don't think Nintendo needs to do something Smash related in order for Mario to be wildly successful this year, which is why I do not buy that it's an absolute guarantee that if they were to do a Mario character this year, that it would need to be recognizable

Speaking of recognizably, I want to directly address a point you made in your recent post

First, just because Nintendo has added more obscure characters doesn't mean they will in this situation. If the goal is that Nintendo will promote the anniversary, why do they want a niche character. I feel like the conversation is they could. Not that they should.

Now, your second point is going a bit of the rails since the point is that Nintendo is promoting the Mario series and they'd want to add a character people will see and say "Oh, yeah, I know them." Regardless:

One problem I've noticed with Geno supporters (here and elsewhere) is they tend to equate Geno with other niche characters when the comparison doesn't make sense. It's present in the conversation. "Why about Terry? They chose Banjo over Steve. What about King K Rool."

Geno is not in the same boat as those other characters, that I can agree. But my point was mainly meant to address the idea that Nintendo would want to pick a character that is more recognizable. You keep saying Nintendo would want to prioritize a character that is more recognizable to the general public

What I'm saying, is that Nintendo doesn't cater to the general public consistently and that is why I can't buy them 100% picking a general character over a more niche one. That's why I brought up Terry. That's why I brought up Joker. And that's why I brought up the comparison between Banjo and Steve. Let's forget Geno for a second here. Putting him aside, the point still stands that characters like Joker, Terry, and Banjo definitely aren't choices made with the general public in mind. If your main argument is that Nintendo would prioritize a generally well known character, I don't buy it, because a handful of character choices do not match that description

And, I'm not talking to you specifically on this point, nor do I mean this in a rude way, but I just find it strange that people continue to use similar tactics to discredit fan favorite characters, only to be wrong in the end

Ridley fans were told he wouldn't be included do to size

Then King K Rool fans were told he was irrelevant

Then Banjo fans were told he was irrelevant + was owned by a direct competitor

I feel like the goal posts keep moving. People kept trying to explain how this fan favorite character isn't like this other fan favorite character that got in and because of certain xyz differences, it won't happen like it did for that character. If Geno does get in, I'm almost certain the goalposts will move again, and people will try and justify why Geno happened and this other character won't. This is why I don't find the whole "he was in one game as a side character and only relies on fan support" point extremely convincing because Nintendo keeps breaking what we think are "rules"

Lastly, I want to address the Waluigi vs Geno debate and that Waluigi would be both best for casuals and die hard fans. My problem with this, is that it assumes that the promotional angle is the only angle that is looked at here. I've already explained why I don't buy promotional characters necessarily having a better shot. But here's another thing that's worth considering and it's that the promotional angle isn't the only one. There's the creative/artistic side too. If say, Sakuari and Nintendo are having discussions on what Mario character to include, Waluigi or Geno, and Sakurai states he thinks Geno would be more interesting and would fit the game better, then that might just be enough of a reason to get him in first

There's also the fact that it might be harder to fill in a stage, spirits, and music with Waluigi in comparison to Geno. Not saying it would be impossible, just that creatively, it could be something that ends up justifying someone else

I'm not saying these conversations actually happened to clarify. It could also be that they exclude Geno for a creative reason. Who knows what's going on over there. My point is, you can't assume that Nintendo would strictly do a promotional pick, because that's not the only angle involved with character choices. Sakurai himself said it's more important if a character is fun to play rather than being recognizable. Once again, why I don't buy the idea of a promotional pick taking priority

 

[TriggerX]

I do agree with you on Mega Man X. As beloved as that franchise does, it never really performs as well as Classic Mega Man does which is why Capcom has seemed to remain with the classic series more than anything.

However, I don't know if I could agree with you regarding Super Mario RPG not pushing units. Paper Mario and M&L are still a cut of the same cloth, it does look to be a formula/genre that does seem to push units. However, unfortunate circumstances is what prevented Geno from being apart of that continued success.

I would agree they once were, but both series were handled poorly to the point where it strayed too far away from the RPG genre and sales dramatically declined.
They are better off making a new series.
For example:
.02 million units for the last m&l game and .186 mill from color splash.
Those numbers are from wiki btw. Hopefully they are somewhat accurate. If they are it’s safe to say the success these series have had is definitely gone.

If you already consider both those series cut from the same cloth as SMRPG it pretty much proves my point why Smrpg2 would be a hard sale.

Both Paper Mario and M&L have essentially been on a downward trend for sales. They’d have to do some heavy marketing to convey the idea that a Smrpg2 is somehow different and not Nintendo’s usual spin on a Mario rpg.

 

[StarLight42]

And by the flick of finger, Crashboards was reduced to Smashboards

 

[NintendoKnight]

While I do agree with you in general that Geno certainly has a big shot, you are certainly missing a key element. Outside of Corrin, and now Arms, your listed "niche" characters were all in the base game. They never joined (sure Roy and Lucas were DLC in Smash4, but you get what I mean) through the means of DLC. Your argument would have worked better if you mentioned Banjo, even though his games got a worldwide release compared to SMRPG who never saw the store shelf outside of Japan and America. The only reason I (I live in Sweden) even knew about Geno before I started with Smash speculation was that I found the game randomly on Wii¨s Virtual Console. When I first played Super Star Saga, I literally thought he was just some random mascot for that mini-game.

Also, let say that we are getting a Mario character with the 35th-year-old anniversary. Who would be the biggest splash joining? The purple clothed plumber that even got the attention of WSJ and have been in countless spinoffs, some selling better than others or the lovable puppet that could have been more of a household name would Nintendo and Square not parted ways the way the did back during the N64 era. If I would have a gun to my head forced to answer who I think is the most likely before the last character is revealed (the notion that Geno has to be next or he is not in is quite silly to me), then I would say Geno when it comes to a character from the Mario universe. But I can¨t deny that if we knew that if we are getting a Smash character during the Mario celebration, my money would be on someone like Waluigi instead. As much as I hate to say it, but Geno does not scream "celebration of the entire brand" in a general sense, even though I love the character.

Btw, you show a picture of the Piranha Plant and pretty much everyone knows who you talk about. While he is certainly generic it is a well-known enemy.

Your post tells me you missed my point.

In my response to the other fellow, I was listing characters that only had a single game appearance before showing up in Smash. Banjo has had multiple appearances before becoming a Smash fighter, and thus is not an apt comparison in the slightest. Roy, Lucas, and Corrin all only appeared in a single game before Smash... Well, technically Roy's first game was Melee, so he couldn't even make it that far.

Also, how is base game vs DLC a key element? I fail to see how that has any impact on what I was saying. Whether characters are DLC or not doesn't mean anything in regards to my point.

You mention that Waluigi would make a bigger splash than Geno, and thus he would be added over him. Let me reiterate: they added Piranha Plant. Character choices aren't decided by whether or not they will have the "biggest splashes;" Byleth proves this. Heck, every WTF/Joke character in the Smash series prove this. And your biggest splash thing is also disproved by Banjo. Steve or Master Chief would easily have made a bigger splash, but Banjo was the one chosen.

Honestly I wouldn’t give too much credit to echo characters. They add on to the roster, but they are pretty much just added as freebies. It’s definitely not the same as developing a new character which would definitely need more resources to accomplish. They are literally just copying the code over from one character to the echo. Even setting up the animations is probably done with a click of a button depending on the software.

As far as Geno being a side character... I kind of look at it like FF7 Tifa and Cloud. So it’s debateable.

Unfortunately SMRPG is a bit niche, but same thing with Crono Trigger.
It’s not a game that would be guaranteed to move units or is well known.
For example Megaman X sold less on the SNES but it’s a series that everyone is familiar with due to its longevity. Lol Although megaman x probably won’t move units either.

Take away all echoes, semi-clones, or clones in general (heck, any character that is clearly based on another character) and you remove 15+ characters from the roster (if you're of the persuasion that Lucas and Wolf are atleast semi-clones, they bring the count up to 17). That's about 20% of the roster, nearly a quarter of all playable characters. They were all brought back for Ultimate, and a good chunk of them took up solid development time. "Everyone is here" is a big deal, and characters that were once copy/paste characters were not so for Ultimate. With the Echo/Clone argument being they're not a big deal, why were so many people happy to see them come back? Clearly they matter.

I'd say that Geno is more akin to Aerith, and Peach is akin to Tifa. One has a bigger impact in the overall plot: (Geno/Aerith), the other has a bigger impact on the Player Character: (Peach/Tifa).

Overall there are plenty of games that are niche that sold well, but unfortunately due to discontinuity remain niche in popularity.

I'm pretty sure appearing on both the JP and NA versions of the SNES Classic Edition disqualifies it as niche (for the uninformed, the JP and NA versions of the SNES Classic had a slightly different selection of games). That's pretty much Nintendo's way of saying, "If we had to make a top 20 list of what we call the best Super Nintendo games in both Japan and the West, SMRPG has to be on it."

 

[Powerman293]

I would agree they once were, but both series were handled poorly to the point where it strayed too far away from the RPG genre and sales dramatically declined.
They are better off making a new series.
For example:
.02 million units for the last m&l game and .186 mill from color splash.
Those numbers are from wiki btw. Hopefully they are somewhat accurate. If they are it’s safe to say the success these series have had is definitely gone.

If you already consider both those series cut from the same cloth as SMRPG it pretty much proves my point why Smrpg2 would be a hard sale.

Both Paper Mario and M&L have essentially been on a downward trend for sales. They’d have to do some heavy marketing to convey the idea that a Smrpg2 is somehow different and not Nintendo’s usual spin on a Mario rpg.

Just because something is on the downward trend doesn't mean Nintendo wouldn't try to force it. Adding an ARMs character for a game that sold okay at best 3 years ago with almost no current player base is proof of that. If they can expect people to pay for a character from a lukewarm franchise at beat, Geno has just as much a shot.

 

[MisterMike]

And by the flick of finger, Crashboards was reduced to Smashboards

And here I thought the Coronavirus was the only thing taking the things we love away from us.

 

[Droodle]

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

TBH, half of your examples don't really relate to "what gets into Smash" all that well, although I do agree with your main point. Sales do not often equal a character in Smash, and nor should they matter exclusively. A ton of it has to do with relevance, demand, "investment" from Nintendo, with sales taking an extremely small portion of that.

Regarding your examples:
-Sheik was originally a part of Zelda's moveset, and not her own character.
-Greninja: Pokemon is pokemon, one was always going to get in as base. It doesn't matter if they're "new" or not.
-Ness, released earlier then SMRPG. On top of that released in an era where only 1st party series got in.
-Roy: Pretty much a clone that barely took anytime in development. His game got delayed so he made his debut in Smash.
-Robin: FE was booming in popularity around Smash 4's launch. Sure it sold less then SMRPG, but likely made more money due to DLC and the likes.
-Lucina: Very easy clone.
-Dark Pit/Palutena: Dark Pit is a clone, palutena isn't. But Sakurai made these characters so I would say they were pretty special for him.
-R.O.B/Game and Watch/Duck Hunt/Pirahna Plant: These are all the WTF characters Sakurai loved to put in since melee. Pretty much all of them are "special" picks that don't follow general trends.
-Shulk: Well duh it sold less then SMRPG. But nintendo seemed very invested in the IP due to XC X being a Wii U game. As well as it not doing too bad, for how screwed the release was.
-Corrin: Sold less then SMRPG. But maybe not really due to how Fates handled other versions. I dislike Corrin as an addition, but he was extremely relevant when he got announced.
-Also cameos aren't really a good indicator of multiple appearances. That's like saying Shulk had more then 1 game under his belt because he showed up in XC X's announcement trailer and had about as much screen time as Geno.

So what you see above is that all of those characters had recency also supporting them. On top of that most of them were the DEFINITIVE main character of that game. SMRPG is over 2 decades old at this point, which makes Geno's situation vastly different (on top of him being third party).

"Nicheness" isn't really defined by sales alone. It's defined by both sales, iconicity, and relevancy. Something like SMRPG was super popular 20 years ago, but that popularity/iconicity hasn't really lasted as well some other JRPG's. Nowadays it's just simply known for being a good Nintendo x Square collab, and a good jrpg. Comparatively, Chrono Trigger sold a little bit less then SMRPG, but nowadays would be considered a lot less "niche" then SMRPG due to its lasting legacy/popularity. At least among the video game enthusiast crowd.

A lot of your examples are definitely not more niche then SMRPG/Geno. But I do agree with your general point that "nicheness" should not be a factor holding back Geno from Smash. Fan-demand alone has proven to be a successful method of getting a character you want into Smash, I guarantee you that if there was no fan-demand for Banjo; he would not have gotten in.

That said, fan-demand also isn't infallible. For every Banjo or K. Rool, there's a Isaac or Waluigi. As much as we like to convince ourselves of the tons of evidence supporting Geno, nothing is definitive until shown. So let's just wish best for the boi and hopefully he'll get in before Ultimate is finished.

 

[Loliko YnT]

I would agree they once were, but both series were handled poorly to the point where it strayed too far away from the RPG genre and sales dramatically declined.
They are better off making a new series.
For example:
.02 million units for the last m&l game and .186 mill from color splash.
Those numbers are from wiki btw. Hopefully they are somewhat accurate. If they are it’s safe to say the success these series have had is definitely gone.

If you already consider both those series cut from the same cloth as SMRPG it pretty much proves my point why Smrpg2 would be a hard sale.

Both Paper Mario and M&L have essentially been on a downward trend for sales. They’d have to do some heavy marketing to convey the idea that a Smrpg2 is somehow different and not Nintendo’s usual spin on a Mario rpg.

You forgot a crucial point. These games were released under extremely bad circonstances.

First , Color Splash. Even if Stickers Star sold well (New Mario game on the new Nintendo handeld that got put under the Nintendo select treatment.) , the vast majority hated the main gameplay and lack of originality. So what did Nintendo do ? Do the same shtick , but with cards and paint. Granted , the humor was way better , they were some nice locals , good music but... It still had this horribly flawed gameplay , on top of the lack of a proper new world/partners.
And... It was on the Wii U. It also released in the later life of the Wii U. That's why this game didn't sell , not because there was a PM fatigue , because again... Sticker Star sold 2 and a half million units. Yeah it's not as big as other Mario games , but it's still millions of units for a simple Mario spin-off on a handeld.

Now , the last Mario and Luigi game. Being the BiS remake.
They remade a DS game in 2019 for the 3DS. Do I really need to say more ? It made sense to remake Superstar Saga , it was a GBA game , there was a lot they could improve on. But in the case of BiS , you could just buy the DS version , and put it in your 3DS. Pretty much same experience , minus Bowser Jr. Journey. (And even if I liked that side game , lot of people hated it)
I also completed both remakes. (Well , didn't defeated Bowser X , was slightly underleveled , and no matter how much I pushed the boundaries of equipments and basges combinations , I couldn't do enough damage quickly enough to kill him.) While they were some quality of life improvement , it was mostly the same experience. The biggest difference is them remaking the graphics , and I admit , they look super good.
This game was released in very early 2019 , when the hype for other Switch games was way bigger. Heck , one day before the release of the BiS remake , NSMBUD released on Switch !
That's why this game didn't sell , not because there was a Mario and Luigi fatigue. Alphadream tried to do a quick buck with that remake , since the Superstar Saga remake didn't do so well (Released late 2017 on 3DS , when the Switch was getting stuff like Mario Odyssey released in the same month !) , and it went horribly because they didn't make it to Switch , making them go bankrupt.

I can tell you , the day we got a Mario RPG on Switch , they will sell. Because :

A)If we believe the recent rumors/leaks , they understood their errors with PM , and not only will we get a game the fans want , but just a very good RPG.

B) Not a single Mario RPG is available on Switch currently. (Not even SMRPG on the NSO) So a lot of newer and olders Mario fans who just came back to the Switch/discovered the Switch will play a Mario RPG for the first time , or discover again the franchise after SMRPG/PM64/SS. Thus making new fans , and grow the playerbase. A new Mario spin-off that wasn't yet on Switch will get at least decent sales when they get on Switch , just look at the success of Super Mario Party despise the game lacking in content.

 

[Icewolff92]

Also, how is base game vs DLC a key element? I fail to see how that has any impact on what I was saying. Whether characters are DLC or not doesn't mean anything in regards to my point.

My apologies for the late answer, but you know... timezones

It is a key element because it is clear that Nintendo has another mentality when it comes to DLC vs base game.
Corrin
Bayonetta (there was an indicator that there was a model made for her back in the base game so when they data-minded the game...)
Byleth
Were all been inhouse marketing

Joker - a character from the recently popular game, and Atlus just so happen to announce Persona5 Royal and Personal5 scramble not so long after the announcement of Joker
Hero. a character from a fan-favorite series in Japan (which is an understatement) but also marketing for the sake of pushing the series in the west
Terry is a big character within the fighting game community that still get¨s game even to this day. We also have the factor of SNK being a big supporter of Nintendo.

Banjo on the other hand,. His latest game on a home console was in 2008 (or 2000 if you want to count out Nuts & Bolts) His character has somewhat fallen into obscurity because of this. That¨s why comparing Geno to Banjo would be a much better alternative. Because they are the one's characters that unfortunately have fallen into obscurity into the majority of the general video game player.

So yes, there is a difference between base and DLC.

With that said, with Banjo in mind. If someone told me that guess either Geno or Waluigi would join and the character would not be shown at the Mario Celebration, then my bet would be on Geno. He is big enough within the Smash community that I think he has a solid shot. However, would I be forced to guess who it would be, would the character be announced over at the Mario celebration knowing how they handle the DLC, I would say Waluigi because I could see Nintendo have the mentality that the biggest move there. Sure, Banjo was revealed over in E3 but that was because they wanted "West get¨s one, East get¨s one" so to speak, and if Fatmans claim of "fairness" is true, then I doubt we are getting two characters from the same franchise. But hey, we could get both for all we know.

You mention that Waluigi would make a bigger splash than Geno, and thus he would be added over him. Let me reiterate: they added Piranha Plant. .

PP was a freebie and the obvious "lol pick" that Sakurai always picks in every installment since Melee. The rest of it all is answered above

 

[SSGuy]

I would agree they once were, but both series were handled poorly to the point where it strayed too far away from the RPG genre and sales dramatically declined.
They are better off making a new series.
For example:
.02 million units for the last m&l game and .186 mill from color splash.
Those numbers are from wiki btw. Hopefully they are somewhat accurate. If they are it’s safe to say the success these series have had is definitely gone.

If you already consider both those series cut from the same cloth as SMRPG it pretty much proves my point why Smrpg2 would be a hard sale.

Both Paper Mario and M&L have essentially been on a downward trend for sales. They’d have to do some heavy marketing to convey the idea that a Smrpg2 is somehow different and not Nintendo’s usual spin on a Mario rpg.

If it is all the same to you, I would like to at least consider games up until Bowser's Inside Story to be referred to when saying cut of the same cloth. I do agree that SS, CS and others did not perform well. I feel like Nintendo could make any Mario game a system seller if they play their cards right. Mario + Rabbids is exactly that and no doubt gives me confidence they could do something like that with a truth Mario RPG sequel.

Another solution is just simply obtain the rights to use Geno/Mallow in an up coming Paper Mario game. Probably the scenario where everyone is happy. The Paper Mario universe already established that Star Hill is a part of it's world so I think it's not impossible to tie Geno back into this world with no disrupting the story. Especially if they want to capitalize on reintroducing former party members.

 

[Vector Victor]

Thank you for changing the thread title.

You know, I still look forward to playing Ultimate each day, even if it's only for a few minutes sometimes. I just love all the characters that are in it and all the content added. I still get a dumb smile on my face seeing Banjo and Kazooie in the game. And I look forward to Geno being fully playable.

 

[Deleted member]

The best information I can find on Super Mario RPG is it sold 2 million.

Hang on.

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars on the Super ****in' Nintendo sold 2 million copies in 1996? Is that worldwide? I can find the 1.47 million figure in Japan, which for the time is massive all on its own. Don't forget that the Nintendo 64 was coming out (and in reality should have already been out) in a few months in Japan when Super Mario RPG released in both regions. End of console life games typically don't do very well because they end up overshadowed by the much hyped release of the new console.

I'm sure you haven't bothered to read the whole thread, but only a handful of pages ago I mentioned that there was a time when a video game wasn't expected to push several million copies on launch day, and from what I can see, Nintendo expected the game to only make 500,000 sales in the first year, yet there's an implication that it did much better than that, possibly making 1 million in the first year in the United States? If it really managed 2 million in the US then that puts its global sales at about the same level of Star Fox, which one can argue is "bad for a Mario title", but that's treating Mario in 1996 like Mario in 2020 - a lot needs to be considered when you start digging up sales numbers from the past.

If the global sales of Super Mario RPG were indeed 4 million, that means that approximately 10% of people who owned a SNES owned Mario RPG (5% if it was only 2 million worldwide) I did a comparison last week stating that ARMS is owned by 2% of the people who own a Switch, and since you mentioned Luigi's Mansion, assuming you're speaking of 3, right now it too sits at approximately 10% adoption. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, the current best selling game on the Switch, is owned by approximately 44% of Switch owners, while Smash Ultimate sits at around 33% - just for reference.

I feel that these percents are a more fair comparison than just raw numbers because it illustrates interest in the game compared to interest in the console, but still doesn't factor in how big of a part of daily life and modern media video games are compared to 1996 when the industry was still considered a niche form of children's entertainment, nor do they factor in release in comparison to events in video gaming going on around them, which does unfortunately often harm the sales of a game (Paper Mario, for instance, likely would have done much better as a near launch title on the 64 than it did launching less than a year from the Gamecube's release). But let me tell a funny joke. I'm going to hide it in spoilers so as not to offend the sensitive members of this forum.

Spoiler: I think we've heard enough of your jokes...

Sales don't mean **** because 0% of Switch owners own Persona 5, MOTHER ain't that popular and to be quite honest, neither is Metroid. "I don't not want Geno but..." and proceeding to list a bunch of "justification" as to why you think he's not gonna make it is disingenuous. Character selection in Super Smash Bros. is a total crap shoot outside of a handful of instances that we assume we can prove were included based on fan demand. The protagonist of Japan only title Mother 3, that probably never broke 1 million sales, was added back into Smash 4 as DLC that for all we know was basically unplanned after being included in the base game as a trophy, purely on the fact that the fans noticed he was gone, and he's not even a popular character. And almost the exact same thing can be said for Roy.

 

[waterhasataste]

So there's been a lot discussions over relevancy, promotional characters, and Mario sales, I want to throw this point out here

If the argument is that Mario RPG games haven't been as successful as other Mario entries, and if the rumors are true and we are getting a Paper Mario game this year, wouldn't it make more sense to promote the Mario RPG games more since these are the Mario games that need a stronger boost? I made this point in my last post, but general Mario games sell a lot more already. They aren't going to lose a bunch of sales on a 3D Mario anniversary collection for example if Waluigi or Captain Toad don't get in

I'm not saying this argument makes Geno a lock or anything like that, but this is just another reason why I don't buy the whole "Waluigi and Captain Toad are more relevant than Geno therefore they're more likely" angle because we really don't know Nintendo's mindset or goals entirely and if something like that is what they would prioritize. Doesn't matter what character we're discussing, the promotional angle should not be the be all end all for a chaarcters chances

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Thank you for changing the thread title.

You know, I still look forward to playing Ultimate each day, even if it's only for a few minutes sometimes. I just love all the characters that are in it and all the content added. I still get a dumb smile on my face seeing Banjo and Kazooie in the game. And I look forward to Geno being fully playable.

Amen to that.

And by the flick of finger, Crashboards was reduced to Smashboards

My dissapointment is inmesurable, and my year is ruined.

 

[Deleted member]

the promotional angle should not the be all end all for a chaarcters chances

The cycle of the Geno detractor:

"They only put characters in to promote upcoming games."
Piranha Plant blocks your path.

"He was the easy 'lel so randum xD' pick, they don't count"
Simon, K. Rool and Ridley block your path.

"But they were fan favorites requested in the ballot"
Geno is a fan favorite blocks your path.

"They only put characters in to promote upcoming games, though!"

 

[Fatmanonice]

I do wonder if Nintendo is going to do anything for April. They made it pretty clear that Corona has thrown a wrench in things but April is historically the month where Nintendo empties out its pants' pockets before going largely going radio silent before E3. I've talked about it with some people but the Amiibo rerelease in two weeks is really weird now especially since it's the first Amiibo release that presumably won't have a character attached to it since they outright said 6 was coming in June. Will Ambiibo Theory take its first L or is their cheeky bull**** on the horizon? Guess we'll know soon.

 

[waterhasataste]

The cycle of the Geno detractor:

"They only put characters in to promote upcoming games."
Piranha Plant blocks your path.

"He was the easy 'lel so randum xD' pick, they don't count"
Simon, K. Rool and Ridley block your path.

"But they were fan favorites requested in the ballot"
Geno is a fan favorite blocks your path.

"They only put characters in to promote upcoming games, though!"

This pretty much. Once again I brought this up in another post but I feel like people keep shifting the goal posts when it comes to fan favorite characters

"Ridley can't get in because Sakurai said he's too big"

"Okay, yes Ridley got in, but that doesn't mean King K Rool is coming. King K Rool is a dead character and hasn't appeared in a game in a decade. Not the same scenario with Ridley"

"Okay yes, Ridley and King K Rool got in, but that doesn't mean Banjo is coming. Both Ridley and King K Rool are owned by Nintendo. Banjo is owned by Microsoft a western competitor. He's dead. They would pick Steve instead. Not the same scenario with Ridley and King K"

Now we're seeing:
"Okay yes, Ridley, King K Rool, and Banjo got in, but that doesn't mean Geno is coming. Ridley and King K Rool are the main villains of big Nintendo franchise and Banjo was the star of his own game. Geno is a side character from one game, they wouldn't pick him. Not the same scenario as Ridley, King K, and Banjo"

And then if Geno does get in, we'll start seeing:
"Okay yes, Ridley, King K Rool, Banjo, and Geno got in, but that doesn't mean (insert fan favorite character) is coming. Ridley, K Rool were villains of major Nintendo IPs, Banjo was the star of his own game, and Geno is related to Mario. X character is different because of y and z. They wouldn't pick him. Not the same scenario as Ridley, King K, Banjo, and Geno"

Like I don't mean to insult anyone with this. I just don't get why people keep making reasons like this to discredit characters, even though Nintendo keeps pushing the boundaries on what we think is possible time and time again

 

[Deleted member]

This pretty much. Once again I brought this up in another post but I feel like people keep shifting the goal posts when it comes to fan favorite characters

"Ridley can't get in because Sakurai said he's too big"

"Okay, yes Ridley got in, but that doesn't mean King K Rool is coming. King K Rool is a dead character and hasn't appeared in a game in a decade. Not the same scenario with Ridley"

"Okay yes, Ridley and King K Rool got in, but that doesn't mean Banjo is coming. Both Ridley and King K Rool are owned by Nintendo. Banjo is owned by Microsoft a western competitor. He's dead. They would pick Steve instead. Not the same scenario with Ridley and King K"

Now we're seeing:
"Okay yes, Ridley, King K Rool, and Banjo got in, but that doesn't mean Geno is coming. Ridley and King K Rool are the main villains of big Nintendo franchise and Banjo was the star of his own game. Geno is a side character from one game, they wouldn't pick him. Not the same scenario as Ridley, King K, and Banjo"

And then if Geno does get in, we'll start seeing:
"Okay yes, Ridley, King K Rool, Banjo, and Geno got in, but that doesn't mean (insert fan favorite character) is coming. Ridley, K Rool were villains of major Nintendo IPs, Banjo was the star of his own game, and Geno is closely related to Mario. X character is different because of y and z. They wouldn't pick him. Not the same scenario as Ridley, King K, Banjo, and Geno"

Like I don't mean to insult anyone with this. I just don't get why people keep making reasons like this to discredit characters, even though Nintendo keeps pushing the boundaries on what we think is possible time and time again

Nah they deserve the insult if they take it as an insult. I mean, you're essentially admitting to being a troll when you say something like:

"Ridley will never make it in because he is 7big23me and Sakurai said as much."

and that turns into "Of ****ing course Ridley is in Smash, he's the main villain of Metroid and one of Nintendo's most popular and iconic fan requests." and you repeat that cycle ad-infinitum every time the flavor of the week never ever character is added to the game. Speculation is a lot of fun but I just don't get the contrarian mindset one must have to pick a character and giggle over the fact that they'll never make it in and then move on to another character to do the same thing. Like, I'll admit that I thought Ridley would never make it in, and the "too big" memes are some of my favorite things to come out of Smash, but I couldn't have been more thrilled for the reactions to Ridley actually making it in.

Maybe that's what people are hoping for, is to relive the glory days of quality memes and get even more payoff in the "btfo" reactions, but the Ridleyposting is a unique phenomenon in that he was the character singled out over a decade of speculation as the never ever. Picking a new never ever every time the old one gets confirmed doesn't produce the same results, it just tries to milk a meme dry and that makes it lose its comedic value.

The proper, sane person way to approach the situation is to either admit you thought Ridley/K. Rool/ who the **** ever will never make it into the game and follow that up with "holy ****, I was wrong, congrats [character]bros" instead of this constant backpedaling, which turns you from someone enjoying the meme culture to an insufferable ****head.

And just for the record, I very much believed that not only Ridley, but also K. Rool and Banjo would never become playable characters. I learned my lesson - there is absolutely no character that can't become playable at this point and that probably includes people in assist trophies, or at least some analogue.

 

[Firox]

Nah they deserve the insult if they take it as an insult. I mean, you're essentially admitting to being a troll when you say something like:

"Ridley will never make it in because he is 7big23me and Sakurai said as much."

and that turns into "Of ****ing course Ridley is in Smash, he's the main villain of Metroid and one of Nintendo's most popular and iconic fan requests." and you repeat that cycle ad-infinitum every time the flavor of the week never ever character is added to the game. Speculation is a lot of fun but I just don't get the contrarian mindset one must have to pick a character and giggle over the fact that they'll never make it in and then move on to another character to do the same thing. Like, I'll admit that I thought Ridley would never make it in, and the "too big" memes are some of my favorite things to come out of Smash, but I couldn't have been more thrilled for the reactions to Ridley actually making it in.

Maybe that's what people are hoping for, is to relive the glory days of quality memes and get even more payoff in the "btfo" reactions, but the Ridleyposting is a unique phenomenon in that he was the character singled out over a decade of speculation as the never ever. Picking a new never ever every time the old one gets confirmed doesn't produce the same results, it just tries to milk a meme dry and that makes it lose its comedic value.

The proper, sane person way to approach the situation is to either admit you thought Ridley/K. Rool/ who the **** ever will never make it into the game and follow that up with "holy ****, I was wrong, congrats [character]bros" instead of this constant backpedaling, which turns you from someone enjoying the meme culture to an insufferable ****head.

And just for the record, I very much believed that not only Ridley, but also K. Rool and Banjo would never become playable characters. I learned my lesson - there is absolutely no character that can't become playable at this point and that probably includes people in assist trophies, or at least some analogue.

This reminds me of a funny quote from the TV show, The Good Place:

"It's a rare occurrence...like someone on the internet saying, 'You know what? You convinced me, I was wrong.'"

lol I think in all my life, I've only seen this happen twice.

 

[Dukefire]

If they did a Nintendo Direct Mini, I doubt that it would happen this month. They are planning to do another in the summer based on the activity while dealing with the ongoing COVID-19 situation. Well, from my guess based on gathered info so far.....

 

[Vector Victor]

I'm in the mindset that at least for Smash, we are in radio silence for new information until June. Then Arms will come out as well as the reveal trailer for #7.