Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Polarthief]

I'm in the mindset that at least for Smash, we are in radio silence for new information until June. Then Arms will come out as well as the reveal trailer for #7.

I still think we could get something in late May, like a Sakurai video, so the "E3" direct is cleared of that so the focus can be on the new reveals/Mario stuff/possibly BOTW2 if what Fatman said pans out about it being a 2020 release.

 

[YsDisciple]

Hmm... amidst all this, and albeit we have a pandemic threat ongoing that has halted many a studios' operations I still wonder...

...

When might we be seeing Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars drop on the SNES NSO Library? March came and went so then,... is it... "gonna be May"?

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm... amidst all this, and albeit we have a pandemic threat ongoing that has halted many a studios' operations I still wonder...

...

When might we be seeing Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars drop on the SNES NSO Library? March came and went so then,... is it... "gonna be May"?

I think some NSO games seems appropriate tie for a new game announcement like DKC NSO alongside a new DK game on the Switch. Maybe Earthbound being revealed at E3 unless they’re doing some collection. SMRPG on NSO alongside a Geno announcement may work.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

While I do agree with you in general that Geno certainly has a big shot, you are certainly missing a key element. Outside of Corrin, and now Arms, your listed "niche" characters were all in the base game. They never joined (sure Roy and Lucas were DLC in Smash4, but you get what I mean) through the means of DLC. Your argument would have worked better if you mentioned Banjo, even though his games got a worldwide release compared to SMRPG who never saw the store shelf outside of Japan and America. The only reason I (I live in Sweden) even knew about Geno before I started with Smash speculation was that I found the game randomly on Wii¨s Virtual Console. When I first played Super Star Saga, I literally thought he was just some random mascot for that mini-game.

Also, let say that we are getting a Mario character with the 35th-year-old anniversary. Who would be the biggest splash joining? The purple clothed plumber that even got the attention of WSJ and have been in countless spinoffs, some selling better than others or the lovable puppet that could have been more of a household name would Nintendo and Square not parted ways the way the did back during the N64 era. If I would have a gun to my head forced to answer who I think is the most likely before the last character is revealed (the notion that Geno has to be next or he is not in is quite silly to me), then I would say Geno when it comes to a character from the Mario universe. But I can¨t deny that if we knew that if we are getting a Smash character during the Mario celebration, my money would be on someone like Waluigi instead. Someone that is one of (if not the) face of the spinoffs. As much as I hate to say it, but Geno does not scream "celebration of the entire brand" in a general sense, even though I love the character.

Btw, you show a picture of the Piranha Plant and pretty much everyone knows who you talk about. While he is certainly generic it is a well-known enemy.

Ok before I dig into this I want you to know I'm not specifically calling you out and that I do agree with some of your points. Here's the thing: "one of (if not the) face of the spinoffs". Really? So if you go ask someone who is not in the Smash bubble who the face of MARIO spinoffs is they would say Waluigi?! What?! How can people possibly argue about relevance and what matters to the general audience opposed to just the Smash fandom and then say that Waluigi is the face of Mario spinoffs when that's such a "Smash bubble" thing to say.

No one in their right mind outside of the Smash fandom considers Waluigi the face of anything. He's a fun character sure and is widely liked by the general audience for good reason but is in absolutely no way the face of the spin offs. Granted Geno is just the face of SMRPG due to Smash fandom also and is not the face of Mario RPGs as a whole altho he does represent the RPGs to a degree being from the first Mario RPG. But the point is, frankly, neither Waluigi nor Geno are actually the faces of anything in terms of general audiences but both carry relatively equal and arguably heavy weight in the Smash fandom and have both been name-dropped by people like Reggie and Sakurai respectively. Fan demand may be the only thing keeping Geno in the game but that's been proven that that's all it takes sometimes and to put it quite bluntly both Waluigi and Geno could be easily overshadowed by all the other Marioverse characters but they both have been kept in the spotlight by their fans. There is no way for us to know who they will choose as they went and approved Piranha Plant over other Mario characters so it's really anyone's game.

I do understand what you're saying though and I'd be more inclined to believe the same were a gun pointed to my head as well. Mario character in the pass? Geno. But Mario character to specifically promote Mario games? Yeah I agree Waluigi makes more sense because spinoffs cover more ground than the RPGs do and, in terms of Smash, Waluigi picks up that spinoff mantle. I'm just saying there's no point in even discussing the general audience and the faces of Mario RPGs or Mario spinoffs together because the general audience will not see a face other than Mario for those. And honestly if you're saying something like "well I mean he's the last character left who could really represent the spin offs not so much that he's the face of them" (since I feel Daisy could have done this just as well) then that's not a very good look compared to "he'd be the first character to represent the Mario RPGs" (since none of the other characters make sense to do this before Geno or Paper Mario).

 

[Blankiturayman]

Yeah, I agree we're pretty much just waiting until June from here on. They mentioned in the mini-direct that that'd be when the new content would be shown, so it's just a matter of waiting now. At the very least, we know it'll be then, instead of being uncertain.

 

[SmashChu]

First off, Geno was a major story character in SMRPG, not a side character. A playable party member in an RPG—especially one that drives the overall plot—is a main character. Gaz is a side character, Geno is a main character. There is a difference.

Second off, would you like me to list all the characters that appeared in only one game before joining Smash? (Smash appearances don't count, such as former Assist Trophies, Spirits/Trophies, or Stage Elements)

Sheik (also isn't the main character and therefore is a "side character" by your standards)
Greninja (Counting X and Y as the same game)
Ness (Earthbound sold less than SMRPG btw)
Lucas (Mother 3 also sold less than SMRPG)
Ice Climbers (Sold less then SMRPG)
Roy (His game wasn't even out yet, and when it did release it was still Japan Only. Leave it to Fire Emblem to have the original "shill pick" Also sold less than SMRPG)
Robin (Fire Emblem Awakening still sold less than SMRPG)
Lucina (Still got in, regardless of each-hood.)
Dark Pit (One game appearance, a side character, still got in to Smash. Regardless of echo-hood... oh and his game sold less than SMRPG)
R.O.B. (Only in-game appearance was Mario Kart DS, otherwise merely a peripheral that no one asked for to be put in a game, and even less knew of. The vast majority of casuals mistook him for Wall-E. By the way, multi-roster games like Kart racers and Fighting games usually only have a small amount of main characters, the rest are side characters, which R.O.B. is counted as)
Shulk (Took a huge portion of the North American Nintendo fanbase to even get his game overseas, which worked... but still sold less then SMRPG)
Corrin (His game wasn't even overseas yet... still sold less than SMRPG even after it made it across)
And soon to be an ARMS character. (ARMS also sold less than SMRPG. If the character isn't Spring Man—the main character—then it will be a "side character." A side character from a "niche" game, according to the sales figures.)

Most of these characters were in games that sold less than SMRPG, just in case it wasn't made clear. A few of them are even side characters. If a game like SMRPG is niche, then the games it outsold are technically niche and even more obscure. Which is obviously not the case in reality, therefore SMRPG technically isn't niche especially if games it outsold, such as Fire Emblem Awakening, are considered colossal, worldwide successes.

Oh and by the way, Geno did cameo in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. So, technically, he has more than one game under his belt.

Also, although having been in more than one game, Piranha Plant became a playable character. This isn't even side character level; this is generic enemy #3 level. Like, almost as low as R.O.B.

If all of these characters can get in, so can Geno.

This is a bit reductive. I'll go through all the characters because why not.

Sheik - Sheik is Zelda. Zelda is important. That's why shes in.
Greninja - Greninja is a Pokemon which sells at least 10 million every game. There's tons of merchandise and an amine. Geno isn't even in the same league.
Ness - This might be one of the only fair comparisons to Geno. Yes, it sold less, but Ness was the main character of the game. Geno is one of five party members and Mario was the star. Smash has shown they prioritize the top. You might have more of a point if Poo or Jeff were playable.
Lucas - Same as above though this was a sequel to a game that was already in Smash
Ice Climbers - This character was specifically picked to be a Classic NES rep. Nonetheless, they still re-release Ice Climbers all the time.
Roy - This character was a clone of Marth which is why he got in and why he was later removed (till Smash 4 DLC due to demand).
Robin - Maybe a decent comparison but Robin was still the player character of the game. Weak comparison still because Awakening released in 2013 and Smash Wii U released in 2014. He was still relevant when Smash 4 came out.
Lucina - Besides she was going to be a skin.
Dark Pit - See above. He's in because he was meant to be a skin.
R.O.B. - Not sure why you're bringing this one up because ROB was a well selling toy that had been referenced in a lot of Nintendo games. He was also in Mario Kart DS which sold more than Mario RPG (since it keeps being brought up)
Shulk - Again, main character of his series which Geno isn't.
Corrin - Main character. Also, it actually sold more than Super Mario RPG.
And soon to be an ARMS character - No, sold more

I noticed you brought up sales a lot and I'm not sure you understand what your saying. Smash has never used sales by itself. The reason I bought up sales was I was comparing Super Mario RPG to the entire Mario series. Comparing it to other game series has never worked. Also, I would expect a Mario game to sell better than most titles for obvious reason. Trying to compare Earthbound to a Mario game is silly.

What you are forgetting is that Smash will often go for the star of the series with a few rare cases. Usually these exceptions are for other reasons, like Lucina and Dark Pit being made characters when they were planned to be skins. Maybe you can say Robin but the entire game takes place from his perspective so that's not a stretch. The only outlier is ARMS but if they choose a character like Ribbon Girl or Min Min they aren't really straying to far off the beaten path. Moreover, they often aren't DLC are are usually a lot more current than Super Mario RPG is now. Again, it's a lot of comparisons that don't make much sense.

 

[Firox]

What you are forgetting is that Smash will often go for the star of the series with a few rare cases. Usually these exceptions are for other reasons, like Lucina and Dark Pit being made characters when they were planned to be skins. Maybe you can say Robin but the entire game takes place from his perspective so that's not a stretch. The only outlier is ARMS but if they choose a character like Ribbon Girl or Min Min they aren't really straying to far off the beaten path. Moreover, they often aren't DLC are are usually a lot more current than Super Mario RPG is now. Again, it's a lot of comparisons that don't make much sense.

This is the precedent that's been established so far. The only time we get characters that aren't the main character of a given franchise is when we ALREADY have the main character. To my knowledge, there has yet to be a single exception to this rule. For example, Wolf, Bowser, Krool, Ridley, Metaknight, Dark Pit, etc., etc., didn't show up until AFTER the main characters were introduced to Smash. That said, the Mario Franchise is already well established in Smash (being the most numerous beside Pokemon) so the fact that Geno is technically a side character shouldn't be of any consequence. If a freaking potted plant can get in WITHOUT fan demand, I see no reason why Geno couldn't get in with TONS of demand (unless Nintendo/Sakurai/SE decides to give us the finger).

 

[Deleted member]

This is a bit reductive. I'll go through all the characters because why not.

Sheik - Sheik is Zelda. Zelda is important. That's why shes in.

Are we sure about that...?

R.O.B. - Not sure why you're bringing this one up because ROB was a well selling toy that had been referenced in a lot of Nintendo games. He was also in

ROB came bundled with the NES, he's not a "well selling toy", he's a peripheral disguised as a toy to turn the NES into a well selling "toy".

And soon to be an ARMS character - No, sold more

Super Mario RPG sold 2.14 million copies and ARMS has so far sold 2.21 million copies. You're technically right, but if you'll refer to my last post, remember the percentages and the fact that ARMS is an early launch game. But...

Also, I would expect a Mario game to sell better than most titles for obvious reason.

Yeah, because most of the headliners on a given console are bundled with the console, and those count as sales. Which if I may be so bold, this is an implicit acknowledgement of the fact that if Super Mario RPG released for the first time right now on the Switch, it would sell like hotcakes.

What you are forgetting is that Smash will often go for the star of the series with a few rare cases.

Fantastic, we have the star of the series, Mario, his brother, his damsel in distress, her clone, her space clone, the main villain, his son, and the local pipe dwelling flora. We even have Mario's car and Mario's ugly neighbor. I suppose that you believe we'll need to be getting Mario's ugly neighbor's business partner and perhaps Mario's story book incarnation before we get Mario's puppet friend from the woods.

The only outlier is ARMS but if they choose a character like Ribbon Girl or Min Min they aren't really straying to far off the beaten path.

"If they don't pick Spring Man my pattern of main characters is broken but it isn't because I said so"

 

[RuffyYoshi]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Very interesting... Dunno if it's Smash related but if it comes down to these two, the best news is we win either way cuz they're both spirits. If Spring Man wins, we win DOUBLE cuz he's an assist trophy, too!

EDIT: I'm starting to think we'll get multiple reps for real. First the MinMin thing that happened, and now this...

 

[Vector Victor]

When they announced ARMs would be playable, I went to the vault in Ultimate and there were two ARMS spirits to purchase. I felt that that was a little too coincidental.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Very interesting... Dunno if it's Smash related but if it comes down to these two, the best news is we win either way cuz they're both spirits. If Spring Man wins, we win DOUBLE cuz he's an assist trophy, too!

EDIT: I'm starting to think we'll get multiple reps for real. First the MinMin thing that happened, and now this...

Knowing that the DLC was chosen in November I think it is unlikely that until now they are looking for the arms rep
BTW SpringMan is AT, Spirit and Mii Costume all at the same time

 

[Loliko YnT]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Very interesting... Dunno if it's Smash related but if it comes down to these two, the best news is we win either way cuz they're both spirits. If Spring Man wins, we win DOUBLE cuz he's an assist trophy, too!

EDIT: I'm starting to think we'll get multiple reps for real. First the MinMin thing that happened, and now this...

The main reason there's a Party Crash now is because the game is free to play , they want to show to everyone how the main online event this game have work. I'm fairly sure they chosed Spring Man and Ribbon Girl to keep it simple , since a looooooot of new ARMS players are coming.

Like , imagine a Helix VS Byte and Bark Party Crash , it would be a very wild match-up. While Spring Man and Ribbon Girl keep it more simple.

----

However , I still strongly believe Spring Man will be the ARMS representative , with SpringTron , Ribbon Girl , and Min Min as alts. (With different idles , taunts , voices , victory animations. Yeah , some might say it's "echo material" , but echo can go from simple skin () to litteral semi-clone () , and were used to convince people that adding clones as bonus wasn't stealing the spot of their favorite character.Also , they have DLC money to make this kind of stuff.)

Some might say that they have their own gimmicks but... Look at the list of ARMS you can equip , all the different effects they have , the range of the attacks , ect... You don't need to dig into character specific gimmicks to make an uniform and complete ARMS moveset for Smash.

 

[Polarthief]

BTW SpringMan is AT, Spirit and Mii Costume all at the same time

Ribbon Girl is also 2 of those 3, she's just not an AT. I feel like some people overlook that.

The reason I bought up sales was I was comparing Super Mario RPG to the entire Mario series.

Stop doing it. SMRPG came out just barely before the N64 launched in a time when the internet was barely a thing. ARMS came out when the switch was starved for games. This is a wildly unfair comparison.

Another reminder that RPGs in the West weren't all that popular and mainstream yet. SMRPG helped with that push as well by having the familiar Mario brand on it. Again though, too close to N64. Finally in case it isn't obvious, SMRPG is a spin-off title. Spin-offs also sell less than main series.

The fact that SMRPG sold what it did in a time when:
- RPGs aren't mainstream in the West
- N64 coming very shortly after it
- Cross-overs like this were rare
- The game wasn't even advertised in the West(?) I don't remember seeing any commercial (I've seen the Japanese one by now though)
- The era was PRE-INTERNET/pre-Information Age
kinda speaks volumes about the major success the game was.

PS: It's not like Nintendo or Square continues to talk about it, and outside of the Wii U, a console that did terrible, there's no commercially possible way to even buy the game at this point since Nintendo doesn't sell SNES games, have the Wii eShop, nor sells SNES Classics anymore. So it's not like SMRPG sales can go any higher while ARMS will definitely get more sales as a result of the character + ARMS now being pushed. I'd be willing to bet that a massive amount of people who have played this game, possibly even more people than have bought the game, emulated it at some point in their lives (especially people in PAL regions since they didn't have any other way to play the game for the longest time).

 

[TheCJBrine]

I’m sure they already chose the ARMS character, as didn’t FP6 development already start?

Either way, this new thing shows they still plan on using Spring Man and Ribbon Girl to market the game, I think, and either one will take down the people forcing “spirits disconfirm” down everyone’s throats (I hope it’s Spring Man so the AT “rule” gets taken down too, though).

And I believe the game’s director said Spring Man when mentioning his favorites; Min Min wasn’t the only one he said.

 

[Firox]

I’m sure they already chose the ARMS character, as didn’t FP6 development already start?

I was thinking the exact same thing. They should be far along already so I think this pretty much proves that the ARMS rep will be a "4 in 1" kind of character with Springman and Ribbon Girl guaranteed. That way, no matter who wins the Battle of Stardom, everyone one will be happy.

 

[Vector Victor]

It will be a merged character, SpringGirl.

 

[Polarthief]

It will be a merged character, SpringGirl.

With the alt costume: RibbonMan!

 

[Firox]

With the alt costume: RibbonMan!

Don't forget MinTron!

 

[Icewolff92]

Ok before I dig into this I want you to know I'm not specifically calling you out and that I do agree with some of your points. Here's the thing: "one of (if not the) face of the spinoffs". Really? So if you go ask someone who is not in the Smash bubble who the face of MARIO spinoffs is they would say Waluigi?! What?! How can people possibly argue about relevance and what matters to the general audience opposed to just the Smash fandom and then say that Waluigi is the face of Mario spinoffs when that's such a "Smash bubble" thing to say.

No one in their right mind outside of the Smash fandom considers Waluigi the face of anything. He's a fun character sure and is widely liked by the general audience for good reason but is in absolutely no way the face of the spin offs. Granted Geno is just the face of SMRPG due to Smash fandom also and is not the face of Mario RPGs as a whole altho he does represent the RPGs to a degree being from the first Mario RPG. But the point is, frankly, neither Waluigi nor Geno are actually the faces of anything in terms of general audiences but both carry relatively equal and arguably heavy weight in the Smash fandom and have both been name-dropped by people like Reggie and Sakurai respectively. Fan demand may be the only thing keeping Geno in the game but that's been proven that that's all it takes sometimes and to put it quite bluntly both Waluigi and Geno could be easily overshadowed by all the other Marioverse characters but they both have been kept in the spotlight by their fans. There is no way for us to know who they will choose as they went and approved Piranha Plant over other Mario characters so it's really anyone's game.

I do understand what you're saying though and I'd be more inclined to believe the same were a gun pointed to my head as well. Mario character in the pass? Geno. But Mario character to specifically promote Mario games? Yeah I agree Waluigi makes more sense because spinoffs cover more ground than the RPGs do and, in terms of Smash, Waluigi picks up that spinoff mantle. I'm just saying there's no point in even discussing the general audience and the faces of Mario RPGs or Mario spinoffs together because the general audience will not see a face other than Mario for those. And honestly if you're saying something like "well I mean he's the last character left who could really represent the spin offs not so much that he's the face of them" (since I feel Daisy could have done this just as well) then that's not a very good look compared to "he'd be the first character to represent the Mario RPGs" (since none of the other characters make sense to do this before Geno or Paper Mario).

Granted..My comment about him being the face of spinoffs comes with the fact that whenever I talk about spinoffs, most people mention him. But you are right.

 

[Powerman293]

I don't where this spin-off fan rule came from. I hear it thrown at Waluigi a lot for some reason. I don't think Nintendo cares if a character is from a "side game" if said games are consistent Nintendo series and are regular million sellers.

Sam applies to Mario RPG + Paper Mario + Mario and Luigi

 

[Inawordyes]

So, taking the assumption that Byleth was ready in November and delayed and FP6 was done in January and delayed, both for unknown reasons (and obviously before the forced delays caused by the Coronavirus), it really makes me wonder just what is holding the ARMS character back? Perhaps it was meant to be a surprise double-release of FP6 and FP7 at E3 and so they’re holding off because they want to finish FP7 (Geno?) beforehand. Or, as I posited as a theory in the ARMS character thread, we could possibly be getting one or more echoes of the main pick and the reason for the delayed reveal+release is not because FP6 is necessarily unfinished, but the echo(es) was/were decided a little later on and so development wasn’t as far along for them, or they finished FP6 first and then started working on the echo(es) and the extra dev time is going to their lesser load (as they have an existing frame to build off of and it would take less time after the initial character to model and change key animations to match the personalities of the fighter).

That, or we’re getting a bonus fighter outside of the pass that they’re gonna spring on us as a surprise, and the extra dev time is working on said character because they want to reveal. I doubt it, but Geno could possibly fall into this, or another popular AT promotion pick like Waluigi/Isaac.

Regardless, and again taking the theory that FP6 was more or less finished in January, what are they working on that’s now taking them an extra 6 months to complete that would delay, not only the release of FP6, but also the reveal? Sakurai reconfirmed echoes for FP1, but we’re in unchartered territory right now with FP2 since it was initially unplanned, and given that there’s nothing that explicitly denies a character programming-wise, to my knowledge at least - the possibility of having multiple echoes, perhaps we’re getting Spring Man as the base but getting up to 3 echoes (Ribbon Girl, Min Min, Ninjara) following, giving each their own slots and sharing a basic move set but each having their own gimmicks and unique animations, as well as possibly even speed and weight differences as well - if Sakurai goes all-our for DLC characters, why would DLC Echoes be effective copy-pastes like Daisy and Richter and not have Ken-like differences?

Long-winded post, but I’m mainly just hung up on the 6-month gap between possible finish and reveal+release. What’s taking up the time?

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

With the alt costume: RibbonMan!

Mega Man 12 boss leaked.

I don't where this spin-off fan rule came from. I hear it thrown at Waluigi a lot for some reason. I don't think Nintendo cares if a character is from a "side game" if said games are consistent Nintendo series and are regular million sellers.

Sam applies to Mario RPG + Paper Mario + Mario and Luigi

I always thought that it was a stupid idea. I mean, Sakurai beign against characters because they come from a Spin-Off? That's dumb. If it actually is a reason as to why he excluded Waluigi then that's even dumber.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Regarding your examples:
-Sheik was originally a part of Zelda's moveset, and not her own character.

I agree with the rest of what you said, however this part of your statement is factually incorrect.

Sheik was developed first, as she was meant to be a standalone character, originally. They realized it would be strange to have Sheik but not Zelda, so they added the princess form after. Hence why Sheik is #16, and Zelda is #17.

This is a bit reductive. I'll go through all the characters because why not.

Sheik - Sheik is Zelda. Zelda is important. That's why shes in.
Greninja - Greninja is a Pokemon which sells at least 10 million every game. There's tons of merchandise and an amine. Geno isn't even in the same league.
Ness - This might be one of the only fair comparisons to Geno. Yes, it sold less, but Ness was the main character of the game. Geno is one of five party members and Mario was the star. Smash has shown they prioritize the top. You might have more of a point if Poo or Jeff were playable.
Lucas - Same as above though this was a sequel to a game that was already in Smash
Ice Climbers - This character was specifically picked to be a Classic NES rep. Nonetheless, they still re-release Ice Climbers all the time.
Roy - This character was a clone of Marth which is why he got in and why he was later removed (till Smash 4 DLC due to demand).
Robin - Maybe a decent comparison but Robin was still the player character of the game. Weak comparison still because Awakening released in 2013 and Smash Wii U released in 2014. He was still relevant when Smash 4 came out.
Lucina - Besides she was going to be a skin.
Dark Pit - See above. He's in because he was meant to be a skin.
R.O.B. - Not sure why you're bringing this one up because ROB was a well selling toy that had been referenced in a lot of Nintendo games. He was also in Mario Kart DS which sold more than Mario RPG (since it keeps being brought up)
Shulk - Again, main character of his series which Geno isn't.
Corrin - Main character. Also, it actually sold more than Super Mario RPG.
And soon to be an ARMS character - No, sold more

I noticed you brought up sales a lot and I'm not sure you understand what your saying. Smash has never used sales by itself. The reason I bought up sales was I was comparing Super Mario RPG to the entire Mario series. Comparing it to other game series has never worked. Also, I would expect a Mario game to sell better than most titles for obvious reason. Trying to compare Earthbound to a Mario game is silly.

What you are forgetting is that Smash will often go for the star of the series with a few rare cases. Usually these exceptions are for other reasons, like Lucina and Dark Pit being made characters when they were planned to be skins. Maybe you can say Robin but the entire game takes place from his perspective so that's not a stretch. The only outlier is ARMS but if they choose a character like Ribbon Girl or Min Min they aren't really straying to far off the beaten path. Moreover, they often aren't DLC are are usually a lot more current than Super Mario RPG is now. Again, it's a lot of comparisons that don't make much sense.

As with my point above; Sheik was added first, Zelda was the afterthought. She's also not at all the star of the game, yet they still added her. Your comment of my forgetting about the "star of the series" tells me you didn't read all of my reply, where I mention main and side characters.

Roy: Are you aware of his leftover data in Brawl? Because that exists, along with Mewtwo and Dr. Mario. Not every character can make it to the next game, but not because they didn't want those characters in. So no, he was not removed because he was a clone of Marth. That's terrible logic and objectively untrue.

I was also using sales as a point of reference in regards to "nicheness", not as a factor for characters getting in. And apparently, some of the sales numbers I saw were inaccurate or not up to date. I apologize for any misinformation that may have spread.

However, I will question where you got your numbers for ARMS' sales. Every source I find says it's below SMRPG. Actually, checking Nintendo's sales numbers, ARMS hit 2.10 mil, which matches SMRPG. However, this includes console bundles and DIGITAL sales, which I tried to avoid counting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sheik didn't get in "because she's Zelda". Sheik got in because they're literally part of the same moveset. Zelda didn't work without Sheik. Sheik didn't work without Zelda. Simple as that.

Keep in mind Zelda was never intended as a standalone character. She wasn't even revealed first either. Sheik is the second Zelda character in Smash.

Now, there's no denying that them being the same person is relevant to why they share the same moveset, but it's not some simple thing anyway. Sheik being a core part of Zelda in OOT mattered a lot. That's part of what makes her worth keeping around, cause of her secret, but also because of a new design made for her based upon TP's aesthetics. Though do note that Hyrule Encylcopedia is a bit vague in its wording. It sounds like they had an idea for Sheik in TP, but they redesigned that idea for Smash itself.

Anyway, Zelda's chances of getting in without Sheik were practically nothing during Melee. Brawl is a different story. Likewise, Ganondorf might've not gotten in outside of Brawl too if he wasn't a clone. Young Link obviously fits that, but Toon Link used Young Link as a base. If it weren't for these unique situations, we might only have Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link at best. The other tons of neat characters wouldn't have any better situations. However, Toon Zelda/Tetra could've been thought upon if Sheik was never playable(but instead it was Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik. Yet another variant OC, akin to Giga Bowser or Mr. Game & Watch).

 

[Deleted member]

I don't where this spin-off fan rule came from. I hear it thrown at Waluigi a lot for some reason. I don't think Nintendo cares if a character is from a "side game" if said games are consistent Nintendo series and are regular million sellers.

Sam applies to Mario RPG + Paper Mario + Mario and Luigi

I mean, the real facts is that a "spinoff" by definition is something that takes place tangentially to a given story, but... Mario doesn't have a story, really. Mario games reference one another fairly often but almost never present themselves as games that take place one after the other - Paper Mario or Mario and Luigi having actual chronological sequels is a rarity in the Mario world - I mean, think about the fact that Galaxy 2 is more of a spinoff of Galaxy 1 than it is a sequel. Zelda manages to avoid this by using time travel shenanigans to justify multiple branching timelines, but look at Fire Emblem - Marth, Lucina, Chrom and Robin could never meet Ike, Roy, Corrin and Byleth in canon even through time travel means, and that latter group could never meet one another. The gameplay is more or less the same, but the stories are spinoffs.

Hell, Pit was upgraded between Brawl and Smash 4 to be faithful to a spinoff version of himself.

In fact...

Mario is actually a spinoff from Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong as he's represented in Smash is based on Donkey Kong Country, which is probably safe to say is a Mario spinoff, and Yoshi as he's represented in Smash is faithful to Yoshi's Island, which is a Mario Spinoff, and Wario's WarioWare look is from a spinoff of Wario Land which is a spinoff of Mario Land.

Mario spinoff characters are already here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, the real facts is that a "spinoff" by definition is something that takes place tangentially to a given story, but... Mario doesn't have a story, really. Mario games reference one another fairly often but almost never present themselves as games that take place one after the other - Paper Mario or Mario and Luigi having actual chronological sequels is a rarity in the Mario world - I mean, think about the fact that Galaxy 2 is more of a spinoff of Galaxy 1 than it is a sequel. Zelda manages to avoid this by using time travel shenanigans to justify multiple branching timelines, but look at Fire Emblem - Marth, Lucina, Chrom and Robin could never meet Ike, Roy, Corrin and Byleth in canon even through time travel means, and that latter group could never meet one another. The gameplay is more or less the same, but the stories are spinoffs.

Hell, Pit was upgraded between Brawl and Smash 4 to be faithful to a spinoff version of himself.

In fact...

Mario is actually a spinoff from Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong as he's represented in Smash is based on Donkey Kong Country, which is probably safe to say is a Mario spinoff, and Yoshi as he's represented in Smash is faithful to Yoshi's Island, which is a Mario Spinoff, and Wario's WarioWare look is from a spinoff of Wario Land which is a spinoff of Mario Land.

Mario spinoff characters are already here.

...Donkey Kong Country isn't really a spin-off of Mario. They're both platformers, but that's all they really have in common. The issue is when Mario already took platforming by storm, and the variety of Donkey Kong Arcade is kind of dead, since Mario did something separate already, you move DKC into a new design. It's a collectathon style of genre, severely unique from Mario. They just share the same universe thanks to Donkey Kong Arcade. But there's nothing to spin-off of. It doesn't star Mario characters. It's not remotely based upon Super Mario's gameplay either. It's not made by the same team, nor share any of the same elements beyond "more than one important protagonist" and a "scaly final boss" at best.

Don't forget that a part of DK Arcade was a form of platforming and collecting key power-ups at times. DKC actually is much closer to that kind of gameplay, but far more on the collecting side than power-ups. In addition, Wario Land actually is basically Mario Land + more from the start. Yoshi's Island clearly borrows from Super Mario World, being a prequel game, while still keeping how Yoshis act along with many similar power-ups. WarioWare is the first game to really not spin-off directly from Mario or DK Arcade. That one is a spin-off of Wario Land, focusing clearly on the nutty aspect of Wario himself and creating an all new cast. Though you could say it was inspired loosely by Mario Party, perhaps?

One game that could arguably be a spin-off of a Super Mario game but from the Donkey Kong franchise is Diddy Kong Racing, as it's clearly the Mario Kart engine, follows extremely similar patterns of design, fairly similar character setups, and even has a similar design to how the "stage" system works(4 areas per world instead of cup, etc). Of course, that got a clone in LEGO Racers(which was pretty much the same gameplay, but revised the weight system due to a created Kart mechanic, and had a slight change on the power-ups, where you needed a clear brick to combine with 3 others of the same type. And was arguably way harder on average. Albeit, DKR can get brutal, but that's not all the time).

Super Princess Peach is another spin-off based more closely on Super Mario itself, with a touch of her Paper Mario mechanics. I'd say SMRPG is the first one in the franchise to not be a spin-off of any game and do its own thing, though. Mostly based upon Final Fantasy, however. Then you have PM, which was SMRPG2 at one point, so isn't technically a spin-off. I forget how M&L came to be, though.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I agree with the rest of what you said, however this part of your statement is factually incorrect.

Sheik was developed first, as she was meant to be a standalone character, originally. They realized it would be strange to have Sheik but not Zelda, so they added the princess form after. Hence why Sheik is #16, and Zelda is #17.

Source on this statement? This sounds plausible but it's easy to make stuff on the spot. Also the numbering of the Melee fighters is odd, because Mewtwo is listed AFTER the likes of Dr. Mario, Falco and Ganondorf, even though those characters are supposed to be extras added to pad out the roster, yet the numbering implies that he planned to do clones as he was making the main roster and even started doing clone characters before starting on Mewtwo. (Just to not look like a total hypocrite ,here's the source about Sakurai regarding Melee's clone development, but it's in Japanese so you will need to use google translate or something like that)

EDIT: Granted, he could have added some clones and Unique Characrers late in development, but i find it wierd that he would start making clones when he hasn't finished non-clone characters, like eating dessert before finishing your launch plate, but im no game developer.

From what i have seen, the numbering order in Smash 64 is by age of debut (from the oldest Mario to the latest, Pikachu and this applies too to the unlockables going from Luigi to Jigglypuff) and the rest of the series is by the order they were revealed (Villager is the first in Smash 4's number list and Bayo is last) im stating this because Shiek was actually announced before Zelda in E3 2001.

In fact she's nowhere to be found at all, so it's likely the numbering order refers to their reveal order and not development order (and i find it extremely odd that they would plan Shiek first, and yet it's Zelda who gets the spotlight in Melee, beign in the character selection screen and having her own target smash, which Shiek lacks, even though it was likely planned)

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Source on this statement? This sounds plausible but it's easy to make stuff on the spot. Also the numbering of the Melee fighters is odd, because Mewtwo is listed AFTER the likes of Dr. Mario, Falco and Ganondorf, even though those characters are supposed to be extras added to pad out the roster, yet the numbering implies that he planned to do clones as he was making the main roster and even started doing clone characters before starting on Mewtwo. (Just to not look like a total hypocrite ,here's the source about Sakurai regarding Melee's clone development, but it's in Japanese so you will need to use google translate or something like that)

EDIT: Granted, he could have added some clones and Unique Characrers late in development, but i find it wierd that he would start making clones when he hasn't finished non-clone characters, like eating dessert before finishing your launch plate, but im no game developer.

From what i have seen, the numbering order in Smash 64 is by age of debut (from the oldest Mario to the latest, Pikachu and this applies too to the unlockables going from Luigi to Jigglypuff) and the rest of the series is by the order they were revealed (Villager is the first in Smash 4's number list and Bayo is last) im stating this because Shiek was actually announced before Zelda in E3 2001.

In fact she's nowhere to be found at all, so it's likely the numbering order refers to their reveal order and not development order (and i find it extremely odd that they would plan Shiek first, and yet it's Zelda who gets the spotlight in Melee, beign in the character selection screen and having her own target smash, which Shiek lacks, even though it was likely planned)

Oh and just to be sure, yes, Zelda was shown in Melee's intro which WAS shown in E3 2001, but so were Wolf, Ridley and Samurai Goroh and there was no sure way of knowing if those would be playable or not. Zelda beign playable was not known to the public at all (and it could have turned out like Little Mac in Smash 4 where the Ring stage ended up beign a clue, or like Shadow in Ultimate where his absence meant nothing in the end)

Sorry for dobule posting, the edit time ended.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Source on this statement? This sounds plausible but it's easy to make stuff on the spot. Also the numbering of the Melee fighters is odd, because Mewtwo is listed AFTER the likes of Dr. Mario, Falco and Ganondorf, even though those characters are supposed to be extras added to pad out the roster, yet the numbering implies that he planned to do clones as he was making the main roster and even started doing clone characters before starting on Mewtwo. (Just to not look like a total hypocrite ,here's the source about Sakurai regarding Melee's clone development, but it's in Japanese so you will need to use google translate or something like that)

EDIT: Granted, he could have added some clones and Unique Characrers late in development, but i find it wierd that he would start making clones when he hasn't finished non-clone characters, like eating dessert before finishing your launch plate, but im no game developer.

From what i have seen, the numbering order in Smash 64 is by age of debut (from the oldest Mario to the latest, Pikachu and this applies too to the unlockables going from Luigi to Jigglypuff) and the rest of the series is by the order they were revealed (Villager is the first in Smash 4's number list and Bayo is last) im stating this because Shiek was actually announced before Zelda in E3 2001.

In fact she's nowhere to be found at all, so it's likely the numbering order refers to their reveal order and not development order (and i find it extremely odd that they would plan Shiek first, and yet it's Zelda who gets the spotlight in Melee, beign in the character selection screen and having her own target smash, which Shiek lacks, even though it was likely planned)

Pretty sure the numbering is reveal order entirely.

Besides, as you said, the clones were confirmed last in development as is. Reveal order isn't related to that. That just means they revealed some characters when everyone was done or mostly everyone was done, heh.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Pretty sure the numbering is reveal order entirely.

Besides, as you said, the clones were confirmed last in development as is. Reveal order isn't related to that. That just means they revealed some characters when everyone was done or mostly everyone was done, heh.

Yeah, i know. I guess my point is that Shiek comes before Zelda because she was announced first.

But im not sure why Dr. Mario is numbered before Mewtwo. The only answer i can gather is that he was likely shown in Smabura-Ken (Melee's Japanese Smash Dojo) before the Legendary Psychic Pokémon. Which makes sense, since Brawl's numbering order also goes in order of the Brawl Dojo's reveals.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, i know. I guess my point is that Shiek comes before Zelda because she was announced first.

But im not sure why Dr. Mario is numbered before Mewtwo. The only answer i can gather is that he was likely shown in Smabura-Ken (Melee's Japanese Smash Dojo) before the Legendary Psychic Pokémon. Which makes sense, since Brawl's numbering order also goes in order of the Brawl Dojo's reveals.

Yep. Also, Ultimate goes by that too. It's the first game to be pure reveal order. Though I think Smash 64 might've done it too? The characters on the side(who all were using a previous character as a base, so in a sense clone-like in some cases) are also in a reveal order to some degree. Luigi, Ness(top to bottom) and then Falcon and Jigglypuff(top to bottom). They're not "truly" consistent, but they do follow a similar pattern on the CSS. 1-8 are kind of the opposite, being left to right. It's also one of the few games where the "clones" are not always next to their clones. Jigglypuff is far from Kirby. Ness is near Mario, but so is Luigi, and Falcon is next to Samus. Melee started the trend. Brawl didn't care. 4 didn't care. Ultimate redid it, but they weren't the normal clones but a new type called Echoes.

It's interesting how unique each CSS is.

 

[Icewolff92]

It's interesting how unique each CSS is.

A quick question about CSS... Is it just me that would prefer the possibility of having it sorted franchise wise?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A quick question about CSS... Is it just me that would prefer the possibility of having it sorted franchise wise?

No, not just you.

But it has to be franchise symbol as well as "whatever we want" for it to be worth doing anyway. People still complain about Yoshi's icon, for instance(I agree, but they should've made him consistent in 4's roster. He's still not an honorary Mario character, he's his own franchise regardless. I wouldn't care if he had the Mushroom symbol). The rest don't feel out of place. He feels tacky in the way they're doing it. "Classic Mario, Yoshi, Modern Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario." ...I think Wario was after the DK franchise, but you get the idea. Clones make sense to split off. They were not called Echoes in 4, after all. Miis too(who are after 3rd parties). 3rd parties by default as well. DLC by release order, I get.

At the very least Ultimate is hard consistent of "reveal order" with Echoes only there cause of stacking.

 

[Polarthief]

A quick question about CSS... Is it just me that would prefer the possibility of having it sorted franchise wise?

I wish they gave us an option to custom place them however we'd like, because who gives a crap, y'know? I feel like any game that has 20+ characters should build that functionality in if it's not too much trouble.

 

[Fatmanonice]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Very interesting... Dunno if it's Smash related but if it comes down to these two, the best news is we win either way cuz they're both spirits. If Spring Man wins, we win DOUBLE cuz he's an assist trophy, too!

EDIT: I'm starting to think we'll get multiple reps for real. First the MinMin thing that happened, and now this...

I think this is a simple case of misdirection because most people are expecting those two anyways. Neither will probably be the signature ARMS character because, if Season 2 was basically greenlit last E3, they probably had who they wanted to use in mind already.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

I think this is a simple case of misdirection because most people are expecting those two anyways. Neither will probably be the signature ARMS character because, if Season 2 was basically greenlit last E3, they probably had who they wanted to use in mind already.

That's the way I look at it, and that reinforces min min because the CrashBash ended in June.

 

[Hot_N_Tasty]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Very interesting... Dunno if it's Smash related but if it comes down to these two, the best news is we win either way cuz they're both spirits. If Spring Man wins, we win DOUBLE cuz he's an assist trophy, too!

EDIT: I'm starting to think we'll get multiple reps for real. First the MinMin thing that happened, and now this...

Reading the comments is a treat. it's 10 to 1 people going "This obviously doesn't determine who the fighter is guys stop" to people actually thinking this has jack all to do with who the fighter is. Maybe I'm just jaded lol.

 

[Vector Victor]

I think this is a simple case of misdirection because most people are expecting those two anyways. Neither will probably be the signature ARMS character because, if Season 2 was basically greenlit last E3, they probably had who they wanted to use in mind already.

'Enjoy our newest ARMS fighter: Legs! He fights with his hair.'

 

[NintendoKnight]

'Enjoy our newest ARMS fighter: Legs! He fights with his hair.'

What they don't tell you is that he's actually bald.

The hair he fights with IS HIS MUSTACHE. He makes Eggman look like an uncultured chump.

He also comes with the Geno costume.

 

[MisterMike]

'Enjoy our newest ARMS fighter: Legs! He fights with his hair.'

His leg hairs?