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General Ness discussion

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Mofo is back in Boston now, but I played with him almost everyday for about 2 weeks.

I could do a write up on what I think about Ness/Mofo/Where he can go/etc if people want. Mofo gave me a lot of insight into what he thinks can be done with Ness, and from playing him I have my own thoughts as well.

The general gist of it tho, is that Mofo is an absolutely brilliant mind in this game, but Ness is HORRIBLE. As for where his potential can take him.... well, I guess I'll save that for the write up if people want it.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
What do you guys think we can advance? The only thing I see is more use of djl landing.

He does very well against opponents that are in the air, but has major problems if they are in the ground.

Maybe better use of his bat and u-smash? F-tilt is too weak, mid-ranged, and slow to be a very good spacing move.

It's extremely frustrating when people cc my bair and then punish me. Fuuuu
 

Mr.Jackpot

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
1,727
Location
WA
Mofo is back in Boston now, but I played with him almost everyday for about 2 weeks.

I could do a write up on what I think about Ness/Mofo/Where he can go/etc if people want. Mofo gave me a lot of insight into what he thinks can be done with Ness, and from playing him I have my own thoughts as well.

The general gist of it tho, is that Mofo is an absolutely brilliant mind in this game, but Ness is HORRIBLE. As for where his potential can take him.... well, I guess I'll save that for the write up if people want it.
I'd like to see this write-up.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
I asked the Link boards this question, I want to know how you Ness mains deal with a campy Link. I deal with a Link on a regular basis who runs away and only closes in by throwing projectile at me, but when I get close, he blocks and grabs me. How do I deal with Link? Particularily a campy one?
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
That's the problem. If I get close enough, he goes on the defensive, and when I stay at a distance, he goes offensive. I think my pride is just getting in the way. But I hate that he brags about it. If anybody here has some useful information, please, spill the beans.
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Fine, this will be a lot shorter and not as good as I would have liked it to be, but I'm at work and just kinda want to get it done since you're being a **** yedi.

I apologize in advance if I switch between the name Mofo and Julien a lot, it's the same guy, I'm just writing this stream of consciousness style and don't plan on editing it afterwards.

Mofo and Yedi will be staying with with me (or PC or someone close) for ROM, so the Ness dojo will be in full capacity for once... which is ********.

Anyway, since I started playing and hanging with Chris on a regular basis, I've gotten know and hang with a lot of smashers I don't think I would've ever dreamed to meet otherwise. Mofo is one such player, an old friend of Chris's from freaking 2002, an awesome guy (and musician), and the best Ness that's ever existed.

To give you guys an idea of how good Mofo is, I grabbed him and PC from the Port Chester train station the Saturday of that freak Snowstorm (The weekend of Halloween) and we drove on down to the FNNNA lab in the Bronx. We sit down to play, and he tells me he hasn't picked up a controller since the last time he came to visit for Chris's birthday 2 months earlier... and go figure his last opponent was me, and on this same TV. Despite his rust and lack of practice, in the first game we played, he was able to YYG me twice (2 for 2 in attempts) and do flawless DJC combos; basically his execution was still absolutely perfect. Later on he picked up Fox (and for those of you who haven't seen it, Mofo was one of the first players to Drillshine infinite people on FD, there are old videos of him from 2003 and doing it, and none existed beforehand iirc) and lo and behold his techskill is also once phenomenal, especially for someone who touches the game for maybe 3 or 4 weeks total throughout the entire year.

The problem is, he's Ness. When we first began our session that Saturday, I was beating him consistently just because Mofo hadn't played in awhile and was getting warmed up and back into the groove of things. By the time he had finally gotten the rust off and was playing at his full capacity, I was still winning because by that time I had figured out how to beat Ness. It got to the point where it didn't matter what character I used; once you know how to exploit Ness's weaknesses it becomes so uphill for him to do stuff....

But I think that's the thing I really admire about Mofo; his stubbornness and love for this character. He's just adamant about playing Ness at top level and feels that there is untapped potential in flawed character. I have a similar relationship with Dr.Mario. I love him, Mario was my first character in 64 and in Melee when they both came out respectively, once I figured out Doc could actually kill **** as a scrubadubdub, there was no going back. People who stick out there mains from the get go and never look back end up developing an insane understanding with their character, especially once you hit jankier characters lower in the tier list. I always ***** about how Doc holds me back, but then I see someone like Mofo who still sticks it out and puts in that 9-5 with his character and I just have to hold my tongue. I dont think it's possible for Ness to win a tourney or a national, but place well in tournament? Make bracket at a national? I'd like to see it.

Now as for some thoughts on Mofo/Ness specifically, Mofo is held back a bit as a player. I do genuinely believe that PC, since he is a better player than Mofo, has a higher potential of beating people with Ness that Julien cannot (and for the record PC's Ness and my Ness are both dirty good). However, Julien's better understanding of the character and the ability to perform more Ness specific tricks and mindgames set him definitely as the best Ness imo. I can't comment on where I think he needs improvement as a player... but I think a good first step would be somehow breaking the game to make Ness a better character LOL. I am convinced that if Ness was better, Julien would probably have Axe level recognition and W's that back it up.

Finally, some things that I watched Julien doing that I don't see other Ness's implement. I really should have done this write up after the tournament. It's been two weeks and I don't remember everything, but the following things stand out.

- Using Usmash as an Anti-air

Julien would charge Usmash as if to do a YYG, and if he missed, he would hold the Usmash til his opponent would approach and then release it at the perfect time EVERY SINGLE TIME to either Anti-air them, or release it in time so he could move and escape before an opponent follow up.

- Setting up YYG out of Jab resets

Ness BnB right now is to dtilt forever when you get a Jab reset. Considering that you get a free Fsmash out of this after 30+ damage in Dtilts, that's pretty freaking good. Julien would mix it up at higher %'s tho, using the forced get up to set up YYG's and thus jackets, or jank hits, combos, etc.

- Crouch/Utilt

This beats out a lot of approaches. Specifically Spacies nair. WD in, duck where you think they will try to connect and then Utilt. The utilt has disjointed priority in his fingertips, and if spaced and timed properly sets up a combo.

- Play Version 1

In Version 1, Ness can sometimes be saved by his tail if he is hit while maneuvering the PKT towards his body. In the other versions of the game, it just disappears entirely, so instances where you might have been spiked into the PKT's tail and given another chance to survive disappear entirely. Why they would nerf his already horrendous recovery is beyond me, but w'e.


I could probably write more, but this is going on longer than I want it to. I'll hopefully have more to add after this weekend. Hope this was helpful for you guys in some way and not just a waste of 15 minutes for me


OOOOH, Final big thought.

I'm also very confident that Julien has the potential to beat someone really good. If you guys watched his set vs Hax from last summer, it just shows that no one has any idea how to deal with Ness. Combine that with his years of experience and hundreds of little tricksies with this dumb character, and you have the recipe for a monster waiting to happen. Low tier/mid tier jank/inexperience can go a long way, especially in a community that is so over-centralized by Top Tiers. Not implying that it will happen soon or ever, but don't be surprised if Julien pulls out a crazy upset at ROM4.

That's it for me.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
WD > crouch > u-tilt sounds good. The jab reset sounds even better. My question is, how reliable is the u-smash as an anti-air? I've used it plenty of times as one, but my opponents still manage to get through sometimes.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
Tell or show him the following:

  1. Be quicker. The Ness seemed to relaxed. That's not generally a bad thing in your own mind. But when the character is fighting a quick character, he should be on his feet and try to be a little more aggressive. Tell him to push himself into doing combos. It's difficult at first, but once you figure out how to push yourself into (tech) chasing your opponent, things become better.
  2. Don't always come back to the stage attacking, but instead, dodge if your opponent is too close to the edge waiting to get a hit on you.
  3. More spacing, please. If you throw your forward airs (fair) out and pull back, you leave the sparkles out further and keep yourself from getting hit. It's not 100% foolproof, but it works.
  4. Never roll on platforms. Ever. If done by mistake, okay, whatever. If done on purpose, you're just asking to take more damage.
  5. Tailwhip with your PK Thunder when your opponent is coming back. That tail behind PK Thunder can gimp your opponent. Fair against Fox's Fire Fox also works well. Again, pull back when using fair, that is unless of course you're combing them in the air. ;)
  6. If you can't L-Cancel, learn it right away.

Link your friend to these videos. This is how I learned because I had nobody to teach me personally. 1, 2, 3
 

KraZ MEX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5
Thanks 4 the tips. I'm still new to the character. So any help is appreciated. =)
 

KraZ MEX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5
Kraz asked me to upload this video.
Is a match captain vs ness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDfQFAK1UAM
At 1:16 he does to me a zero to death (maybe)
Why he didn't post this? He forced me to r,r



Hope you enjoy
i asked a favor of you =/ stop whining.... the thing is i dont know where or how to post, i never managed to get to this post via characterer specific... :/ meh... hope you guys enjoy y vid. im still new to ness, help is appreciated. laters guys.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
Ness - This match was entertaining to watch. If you can do it properly, you should be able to go fair > L-cancel > grab. I noticed your use of fair > bair, too. I tend to do that as well, but don't overdo it, because you'll become predictable and your opponent will be able to see what you're going for. I tend to use Ness' dair and go over the opponent, because sometimes they shield. If you can land dair and cancel it, you'll more than likely be able to follow up with other things like you did in the video at 0:35.

Anyway, I'm not sure how soon this video was made, whether it was done after the info posted here or not, but it looks like you threw in some good spacing, which is good.

Falcon - I love Falcon. He used to be my main until Brawl was announced. Try not to use The Knee so frequently. Your opponent will see it coming. I'd say try to use more dairs and uairs. The use of bair is good, too. Your nair was also pretty useful. But when you do it, don't be afraid to pull back your attack. It is a multi hit, so if one misses, then the other might hit your opponent.

I'm not sure if you know this already, but for Falcon, if you're coming back to the stage, you can use your Falcon Kick and regain your second jump, followed by your third jump. You probably already knew that, though.

Here's a match that was posted up recently, but seeing how a Ness vs Falcon video was posted up, I thought this might be useful to watch, too.

Hax [Falcon] vs Mofo [Ness]
 

Diske

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2011
Messages
21
Location
Tijuana BC, Mexico
Both matches (vsFalcon vs Fox) were played in the same day (a week ago).
The things you said I already knew them, and for the video, I'm going to watch it right now, thanks a lot :D
 

KraZ MEX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5
Ness - This match was entertaining to watch. If you can do it properly, you should be able to go fair > L-cancel > grab. I noticed your use of fair > bair, too. I tend to do that as well, but don't overdo it, because you'll become predictable and your opponent will be able to see what you're going for. I tend to use Ness' dair and go over the opponent, because sometimes they shield. If you can land dair and cancel it, you'll more than likely be able to follow up with other things like you did in the video at 0:35.

Anyway, I'm not sure how soon this video was made, whether it was done after the info posted here or not, but it looks like you threw in some good spacing, which is good.

Falcon - I love Falcon. He used to be my main until Brawl was announced. Try not to use The Knee so frequently. Your opponent will see it coming. I'd say try to use more dairs and uairs. The use of bair is good, too. Your nair was also pretty useful. But when you do it, don't be afraid to pull back your attack. It is a multi hit, so if one misses, then the other might hit your opponent.

I'm not sure if you know this already, but for Falcon, if you're coming back to the stage, you can use your Falcon Kick and regain your second jump, followed by your third jump. You probably already knew that, though.

Here's a match that was posted up recently, but seeing how a Ness vs Falcon video was posted up, I thought this might be useful to watch, too.

Hax [Falcon] vs Mofo [Ness]
yes ofcourse. thanks to that ness, im tryin to main him lol!... hey does mofo have a combo video?
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
I don't believe Mofo has any combo videos. You can try to look up some of Simna's Ness videos that he made a long time ago. They're really old, but they may give you an idea on how you can use Ness in different ways. After all, he used to be one of the best Ness' out there. I don't think he plays anymore, though.
 

Jono

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
133
on:
Lcancelled fair -> grab
try not to get destroyed by people ccing that
 

SamusPoop

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
134
Location
The twilight Zone
Nair does like how much damage? If 12 it has 7 frames of stun has can L-cancel of 11

Nair comes out frame 5 not counting the jump.

You are doing drop down platform djc nair.

Upair has 9 frame L-cancel comes out 8

Bair has 9 frame L-cancel comes out 10.

I'd add in d-tilts randomly it doesn't look horriblely solid.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
Nair should be used after the opponent reaches 50% or higher. You can also chain it.
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
5,500
Location
Fresno
Unless they tech around it.

@ Grim Tuesday: I thought I was the only one who did this. Cool. I don't find it that practical, though.
 

KILLA.FOR.CASH.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
2,916
Location
Fullerton, Socal
hi guys, im not sure where to post this so yeah

heres some footage of my ness playing vs bobmoney and sfat's fox.
http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest/b/303205450


its all in part 2 of the video.my match vs bob$'s fox starts at 23:00, and my match vs sfat starts at 30:25

any and all constructive criticism is welcome

i feel like i could have done much, much better if i could combo more consistently and actually get those uair to regrabs
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Wow, didn't know ftilt had that much range, definitely gonna use it for edge-guarding, thanks!

I like your use of DJC Uair to approach, I need to do that more in some match-ups and situations.

I'd critique, but there isn't much to say. You played well, Fox is just a better character xD

Last stock of your first game, you probably should've gone for the ledge or slightly above it with your PKT2, would've been much safer. You should go for the ledge almost every time in my opinion.

You should fake approaches with DJC fair more in the Fox match-up in my opinion, jump towards them then do a retreating fair when they commit, its a lot safer than your DJC fair approaches, they only work when you catch 'em in the air, or you cross-up, generally.
 

KILLA.FOR.CASH.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
2,916
Location
Fullerton, Socal
Wow, didn't know ftilt had that much range, definitely gonna use it for edge-guarding, thanks!

I like your use of DJC Uair to approach, I need to do that more in some match-ups and situations.

I'd critique, but there isn't much to say. You played well, Fox is just a better character xD

Last stock of your first game, you probably should've gone for the ledge or slightly above it with your PKT2, would've been much safer. You should go for the ledge almost every time in my opinion.

You should fake approaches with DJC fair more in the Fox match-up in my opinion, jump towards them then do a retreating fair when they commit, its a lot safer than your DJC fair approaches, they only work when you catch 'em in the air, or you cross-up, generally.
thanks for the great advice!

what is pkt2?
 
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