General Ness discussion

[KirbyKaze]

I wish Ness could do more than combo people to death.

Everyone can combo everyone to death now :/

 

[thesage]

If there was some sort of way of getting the yyg to work very consistently he could have an amazing spacing game.

 

[Max?]

Mofo is the best at setting up YYG. He just needs to improve his overall game, I could see him doing some series damage soon

 

[Grim Tuesday]

YYG isn't hard to set up at all o_O

Every tech-chase = YYG opportunity

Even if Mofo got better at it though, people would learn to SDI into the Yoyo or crouch cancel it, and then he'd get *****.

 

[thesage]

Even if Mofo got better at it though, people would learn to SDI into the Yoyo or crouch cancel it, and then he'd get *****.

People started doing that to me so it's why I stopped attempting it. =/

 

[Little England]

Sounds like a cool mixup if you ask me. If they keep CCing for the yoyo glitch just tipper bat instead. lol

I wish Ness could do more than combo people to death.

Everyone can combo everyone to death now :/

This is exactly how I feel. haha I've just been playing with ways of getting in and applying pressure in different ways. This usually comes down to DJC shenanigans which is hard cause you gotta be so precise.

 

[standardtoaster]

Mofo, here are the inputs for DJC uair, fair, and bair. I didn't do dair because that one takes forever to come out and you might as well just do a sh dair instead.

up air

jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
wait
wait
wait
double jump
uair
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
hitbox comes out
fastfall
wait
wait
L cancel

-hitbox is out for 3 frames


back air

jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
wait
wait
wait
double jump
back air
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
hitbox comes out
L cancel

-hitbox is out for 1 frame


forward air

jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
wait
wait
wait
double jump
fair
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
hitbox comes out
fastfall and L cancel at the same time

-hitbox is out for 1 frame

 

[trainheartnet]

Hey everyone, I've just recently started playing melee and I absolutely love ness. Mofo you are amazing with ness, I have watched about every video I could find of your ness. I rarely see any techniques outlined in Simna's guide to pk thunder used in a match. I understand the importance of tailwhiping as an edge-guard, but has anyone been able to viably use techniques like the pk thunder2 false edge-guard or the thunder swell surprise?

 

[thesage]

Those aren't very helpful IMO. >_>;

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Mofo is the best at setting up YYG. He just needs to improve his overall game, I could see him doing some series damage soon

he really is, he gets off yyg in the most random spots

 

[The Mofo]

up air

jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
wait
wait
wait
double jump
uair
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
hitbox comes out
fastfall
wait
wait
L cancel

-hitbox is out for 3 frames

Thanks for these. I think it's possible to get these faster (especially this one) by not doing the arial the frame after the jump, but somewhere between 1-4 frames after the second jump while second jumping sooner, and obviously changing the fastfall timing. I'm going to be home within a week so I'll test it out myself.

I rarely see any techniques outlined in Simna's guide to pk thunder used in a match. I understand the importance of tailwhiping as an edge-guard, but has anyone been able to viably use techniques like the pk thunder2 false edge-guard or the thunder swell surprise?

I agree with thesage in that most of the techniques in his video are mostly useless, but tail-whipping and the false edgegaurd are useable in certain situations. The problem is that they're both very risky, and you can only really use them on opponents that you can read easily and/or don't know the Ness matchup. It might be smart in tournament/money match setting to notice a bad recovery habit, and pull out one of these things last stock or when you need it as a kind of trap card.

he really is, he gets off yyg in the most random spots

It's mostly just an automatic thing to go for the yyg when they're vulnerable, but there's not enough time to rush in for a grab because they're a little too far. It's often times the only thing you can hit them with in those situations. I honestly would rather get the grab haha

 

[standardtoaster]

I tried out doing the uair at different times after the shorthop. If you do it a frame earlier than that the hitbox won't come out. You'll land on frame 7 of the uair. Uair hits frame 8.

 

[The Mofo]

what if you did something like this, for example:

jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
jumpstart
wait
wait
double jump
wait
wait
wait
uair
wait
wait
wait
wait
wait
fastfall
....

Balancing the number of waits, waits, and waits until the hitbox comes out 1 frame before you hit the ground, while having the least total number of frames possible. You don't have to do an arial the frame after the second jump to DJC, and in this case I think it might be the key to getting this faster.

I also could be completely wrong.

 

[standardtoaster]

I don't think that would work very well. If you uair quite a few frames after you double jump you're just going to rise a bit. I'll try messing around with how long between things I wait, though.

 

[Jono]

ness is hard

 

[Grim Tuesday]

what is this i dont even

 

[standardtoaster]

Mofo, I couldn't really get any better results. Maybe you can when you get the time.

 

[Bones0]

Critique me! :D

Some are labeled wrong on Twitch, and I'm currently unable to edit them for w/e reason. If you don't plan on watching all of them, my later matches are much better because I was fully warmed up. I had a bad Marth day. :/ Any criticism at all is welcome, but you can leave out the scolding of my Fox's multishining. I was just doing it for teh lulz.

[collapse= Bones (Falco) vs.]1. Btree (Peach)
2. GimR (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. DJ (Marth)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. King of Cereal (DK)
9. Paul (Sheik)
10. DJ (Marth)
11. Paul (Sheik)
12. DJ (Marth)
13. Paul (Sheik)
14. Paul (Sheik)
15. Paul (Sheik)
16. King of Cereal (DK)
17. Paul (Sheik)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Fox) vs.]1. Btree (Samus)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. DJ (Marth)
4. King of Cereal (DK)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. DJ (Marth)
9. King of Cereal (DK)
10. DJ (Marth)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Marth) vs.]1. Paul (Sheik)
2. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Ness) vs.]1. DJ (Marth)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]

 

[Sinji]

Hbox ness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Nn6fBO2Sw&feature=g-all-u&context=G20de911FAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Bones0]

lol @ 0 kills. Still some very sexy stuff though.

 

[Sinji]

Still want to see hbox/plup team so plup can blast hbox regeneration down b.

 

[hungrybox]

can someone remind me how to YYG?

i forgotz

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Slightly charge Yoyo (one flash-ish), make sure it doesn't hit anything else on the way up.

 

[Frisbie]

hit the person with the first hitbox and then release after it flashes yellow once, it doesnt matter how much you charge before the hit

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

can someone remind me how to YYG?

i forgotz

No. I don't wanna.

 

[trainheartnet]

holy crap the guy who motivated me to play ness when I started playing melee is posting in the ness forms again

 

[ChicknMonkey]

This is probably around the threads somewhere but how do you get around the Ness grab problem. As being an amateur Sheik, its hard to pick up ness's grab from time to time so I was wondering what the best option was. Boost grab? JC? Don't even attempt it because its so bad?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just grab when you know it will hit them.

Don't fish for grabs like you would with Fox/Sheik/Marth, the risk/reward isn't worth it.

 

[thesage]

Jc grab everytime.

 

[R:U:N]

JC grabbing is definitely something to get into the habit of, but as Grim said, it's best to wait for the opportunity to present itself instead of going for it head on.
If you really need the grab for a finish or something you can kinda bait your opponent to approach, and then dodge/space/shield their approach attempt and grab when they're vulnerable.
Ness has a pretty bad grab range, but you definitely still wanna keep them in your arsenal, having the best backthrow in the game and all haha

 

[Frisbie]

ness' up throw on fast fallers is good, i think he has a chain grab on spacies and falcon, but im not sure cause i never really go for it. however, i know that up throw can lead to some nasty uair combos on spacies and falcon

 

[R:U:N]

yup, upthrow can chaingrab spacies, and it's a great setup for juggling too
The downthrow is really helpful too, mainly on fastfallers, but sometimes it can lead into juggles or fair chains on floaties. On fastfallers, it can set up into the YYG if they don't tech, and at higher damages, it's really hard but it's possible to chaingrab for a bit if you wavedash immediately afterward and go for a grab. If not, you can always just go for an Fsmash or something.
Also, something more entertaining than useful, but if they don't tech after the downthrow, you can sorta jablock them for a few seconds with the dtilt cause it's so fast haha

 

[Sinji]

Does anyone know the ness vs Marth match up?

 

[R:U:N]

Does anyone know the ness vs Marth match up?

Well, it sucks, I know that.
I don't play with any really good marths, but I play with a roy... But roy is waaaaay easier than marth haha
My best guess would be lots of dash attack and fair, comboing and juggling don't work too well with marth, he can turn a combo back on you in a split second, so it'll be a long match with a lot of spacing and waiting for openings. That's basically what I do against roy to beat his range, except he's pretty combo/jugglable, being a fastfaller.
Also straying from the center of the stage is suicide, one of marth's best qualities is his gimp/edgeguard ability, which just so happens to be one of ness' big weakness.
But I speak with basically no experience in this matchup, so someone else will probably have a better idea hopefully, cuz this is one I'm worried about in tourneys
70/30 in marths favor, btw

 

[Sinji]

Well, it sucks, I know that.
I don't play with any really good marths, but I play with a roy... But roy is waaaaay easier than marth haha
My best guess would be lots of dash attack and fair, comboing and juggling don't work too well with marth, he can turn a combo back on you in a split second, so it'll be a long match with a lot of spacing and waiting for openings. That's basically what I do against roy to beat his range, except he's pretty combo/jugglable, being a fastfaller.
Also straying from the center of the stage is suicide, one of marth's best qualities is his gimp/edgeguard ability, which just so happens to be one of ness' big weakness.
But I speak with basically no experience in this matchup, so someone else will probably have a better idea hopefully, cuz this is one I'm worried about in tourneys
70/30 in marths favor, btw

Your from New Jersey right? Are you going to Apex 2013. At Apex 2012, thesage, Mofo and I had a ness dojo on the first day. If your interested we can have a another on at the next Apex.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know the ness vs Marth match up?

It's really not that bad of a matchup. Ness has a surprising number of good ways of dealing with a Marth that's trying to wall him out or DDWD camp. WDing is huge in this matchup, and after initial hits it just becomes a matter of keeping him above you. He can get combo'd pretty hard, so your DI has to be on point. Specifically, I prefer DIing fthrows up so I can DJC an aerial into his face, but obviously it requires you to use your DJ, so don't get too predictable or rely on it too much. If you avoid his grabs and shield or beat out his fairs, you can make it pretty damn frustrating for him. I got a couple of vids from a recent smashfest you can take a look at. It's the Marth player I play all the time, so a lot of it can't really be taken at face value since we both know each other so well.

Some are labeled wrong on Twitch, and I'm currently unable to edit them for w/e reason. If you don't plan on watching all of them, my later matches are much better because I was fully warmed up. I had a bad Marth day. :/ Any criticism at all is welcome, but you can leave out the scolding of my Fox's multishining. I was just doing it for teh lulz.

[collapse= Bones (Falco) vs.]1. Btree (Peach)
2. GimR (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. DJ (Marth)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. King of Cereal (DK)
9. Paul (Sheik)
10. DJ (Marth)
11. Paul (Sheik)
12. DJ (Marth)
13. Paul (Sheik)
14. Paul (Sheik)
15. Paul (Sheik)
16. King of Cereal (DK)
17. Paul (Sheik)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Fox) vs.]1. Btree (Samus)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. DJ (Marth)
4. King of Cereal (DK)
5. DJ (Marth)
6. King of Cereal (DK)
7. DJ (Marth)
8. DJ (Marth)
9. King of Cereal (DK)
10. DJ (Marth)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Marth) vs.]1. Paul (Sheik)
2. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]
[collapse=Bones (Ness) vs.]1. DJ (Marth)
2. DJ (Marth)
3. King of Cereal (DK)
4. King of Cereal (DK)[/collapse]

 

[Sinji]

I finished watching one of them and noticed that Marth can get a free tipper fsmash if ness di upwards. My guess is to di towards the ground and tech roll.

LOL at the commentator calling Ness "little boy".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ness can get under Marth's "wall" really easily via DJC and wavedashing shenanigans.

Its really not as bad as you'd expect.

 

[R:U:N]

Your from New Jersey right? Are you going to Apex 2013. At Apex 2012, thesage, Mofo and I had a ness dojo on the first day. If your interested we can have a another on at the next Apex.

Yep, I'm from Jersey and I'd definitely love to, but I'd have to qualify first... xD
I'm pretty new to competitive play, I've been practicing competitive for about half a year and I've only gone to one tournament... Got wrecked, but I was playing Mario at that one, who I had only been working with for like a week beforehand.
My friends and I have our second tourney coming up this saturday, No Johns Monthlies in Nanuet, NY, I'm gonna see what I can do with my Ness there.
If by some miracle, I can place really well in a tournamet this year and qualify for Apex, then sure, but I dunno how that's gonna work out haha

 

[Bones0]

You don't have to qualify for Apex. lol