General Ness discussion

[KirbyKaze]

His recovery is okay against anyone who doesn't actually go out to meet him I find.

Cause you can aim towards the ledge from every angle, and if they are holding the ledge you just wait until their invincibility runs out (mess around with the thunder) and then go for it.

I feel like the first statement is a big condition in and of itself. And I think efficient edgestalls negate the second (which aren't hard, since you can pay attention to when the PKT starts to come around because of how slow it is).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is still an awful recovery, I should've used a different word than "okay".

I just recover a lot via that method.

 

[Frisbie]

i dont think his recovery is that bad if you dont lose your double jump, cause you can rise with a fair and then di back and grab the ledge if you dont hit your opponent or airdodge. i think roy has a worse recovery for sure

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't rise with a fair in Melee, that'd be Brawl.

 

[Frisbie]

yeah you can. im talking about jumping from offstage and fairing as you rise. and i dont own brawl so i wouldnt know

 

[R:U:N]

You can sort of rise with a fair actually, it's not quite as much of a "rising fair" as it is in brawl, but what you do is double jump, wait, and once you're on the stage and on the same horizontal plane as your opponent, fair to stop their edgeguard and find your way back toward the center unless you wanna take the chance to turn it around, but that's only a good idea if the opponent has high damage or falls really fast (throw gimps can be effective with good edgeguarding, since the forward throw has really good knockback and the backthrow is the strongest in the game)
Example of the "rising" fair at 1:58 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F58tYvtjDA&feature=relmfu

i think roy has a worse recovery for sure

That's true, Ness' recovery might be bad, but it's by no means the worst in the game.
But as KirbyKaze pointed out, it is pretty conditional. You sort of have to ride on the fact that your opponent is going to be too scared to edgeguard it, or they'll mistime the edgeguard and get hit, or they won't know where you're going to angle it, etc.
Great thing is that nobody really practices the Ness matchup, so sometimes you might be under these conditions. Even if they have practiced the matchup, reading the angle of the PKT2 is harder than it seems, for example 2:16 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCseqJC6Og&feature=relmfu
Odin has a lot of practice with this matchup, but PKT2 angle is pretty difficult to read ESPECIALLY when the opponent hasn't played AS Ness themselves. Learning the PKT2 angling is one of the hardest things for new Ness', I'm still working on it myself, so reading the angles is a lot easier said than done I think

 

[odinNJ]

also i naired in stead of upairing. and i thought you were gonna go straight the the right to get away from the ledge.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's true, Ness' recovery might be bad, but it's by no means the worst in the game.

This is debatable. And even if it isn't the absolute worst overall, it is a huge crippling weakness. I firmly believe Ness has the worst recovery vs gimps. He has no functional DJ sweetspot option without going super low (which kills him). Even Roy can attempt a DJ sweetspot.

But as KirbyKaze pointed out, it is pretty conditional. You sort of have to ride on the fact that your opponent is going to be too scared to edgeguard it, or they'll mistime the edgeguard and get hit, or they won't know where you're going to angle it, etc.

By this line of thinking, Sheik's recovery is incredible. But it's not. It's not difficult to figure out Ness's recovery's weaknesses. They're glaringly obvious and easily exploited (huge startup time, awkward DJ that prevents him from rising with attacks so he gives you time to position yourself, etc).

Odin has a lot of practice with this matchup, but PKT2 angle is pretty difficult to read ESPECIALLY when the opponent hasn't played AS Ness themselves. Learning the PKT2 angling is one of the hardest things for new Ness', I'm still working on it myself, so reading the angles is a lot easier said than done I think

Your matches with Odin are not representative of the current Ness metagame. Misreading the angle is forgivable if the opponent either hits Ness before it becomes an issue or manages their ledge invincibility well (PKT2 has a lot of cooldown so missing something, provided you covered the edge, is very forgivable and you'll probably keep your punish going - Ness, as we've noted, has fairly crappy combo break options and defensive stuff).

 

[R:U:N]

Your matches with Odin are not representative of the current Ness metagame.

I'm not trying to imply that they are, or that I'm the next best Ness, or that I'm a good player for that matter, by any means. Both Odin and I are new and inexperienced, so obviously our matches aren't going to emulate top level play, I just refer to those videos for examples of some of the points that I'm bringing up, not to demonstrate Ness metagame, I would look to videos of Simna or Mofo for that.
I'm not trying to assert that my ideas are right and everyone else's are wrong, I'm just throwing some ideas I have out on the boards for discussion in order to have some misconceptions of mine cleared up and hopefully to help us all to arrive to some conclusions about different aspects of this character.

 

[odinNJ]

TL;DR

we get that were new

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

This is debatable.

No.

10nos

 

[Sinji]

What do you guys think of Ness in teams. I think he is like a peach in a sense. The way how he can nair out of hit stun and wall his opponents. Its unsafe in a way because he is a low tier but I'm working on him.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

if ness had the option to rise with dj attacks.. thatd be cool

i think it's like that in project M, or some other brawl hack

 

[R:U:N]

What do you guys think of Ness in teams. I think he is like a peach in a sense. The way how he can nair out of hit stun and wall his opponents. Its unsafe in a way because he is a low tier but I'm working on him.

He has a lot of save options, that's something good about him that I've noticed
If your teammate is about to be edgehogged, you can dash attack them to pop them up and give them another jump
PK Thunder hits up without tailwhip, so that works too
Drop-->Uair to hit teammate up-->DJ to recover
Bair at lower percentages can work if you tell them to get ready to DI it
Also Ness + Fox = Unstoppable
Feed Ness lasers during opponent respawn, or if the other team starts camping (Which doesn't often happen, but in the event that it does)

 

[odinNJ]

None of this works if the other team is half decent. Pk thunder gets you punished, laser stuff only Works on stadium when the camping begins,

 

[KirbyKaze]

No.

10nos

You're dumb.

 

[Frisbie]

NESS IS SO GOOD IN TEAMS CAUSE YOU CAN YOYO GLITCH OFF YOUR PARTNER AND GET A THUNDER JACKET AND HIT BOTH OF YOUR OPPONENTS WITH THE ONE THUNDER JACKET!!!!!!!!!!!



nahh, but ness is fun in teams. i dont know quite how good he is in teams, but if you get it down to one person on the other team, if your partner gets a grab, just down tilt them forever and then baseball bat them

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wobbling yaaaaaaay

 

[Sinji]

He has a lot of save options, that's something good about him that I've noticed
If your teammate is about to be edgehogged, you can dash attack them to pop them up and give them another jump
PK Thunder hits up without tailwhip, so that works too
Drop-->Uair to hit teammate up-->DJ to recover
Bair at lower percentages can work if you tell them to get ready to DI it
Also Ness + Fox = Unstoppable
Feed Ness lasers during opponent respawn, or if the other team starts camping (Which doesn't often happen, but in the event that it does)

Ah

I see, a recovery character in teams. But what I want to know is if ness is good for approaching or camping like shiek in teams. I want to try him out tomorrow.

 

[Frisbie]

it depends on who your teammate and your opponents are playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Nn6fBO2Sw&feature=relmfu
this video might help some, but i think just testing him out and seeing what works would work best

 

[odinNJ]

The problem with ness in teams is that there are two people to gimp him. But i honestly dont know how to quantify him as a team char.

 

[Frisbie]

The problem with ness in teams is that there are two people to gimp him. But i honestly dont know how to quantify him as a team char.

you also have a teammate that can save you from being gimped

 

[R:U:N]

The problem with ness in teams is that there are two people to gimp him. But i honestly dont know how to quantify him as a team char.

You could kinda say this about any character lol, but again, that's what teammates are for
I'd say his biggest problem is that he's forced to be more aggressive than usual and he doesn't have as much room to space his opponent out
Other than that, the problems that Ness has are the same as the problems in one-on-ones, I guess. I can't think of any other obvious problems that are specific to team matches

 

[odinNJ]

Jesus the ness boards are mega dead, but anyways, i have a question about ness vs peach, how do his aerials react to turnips?

 

[Sinji]

Jesus the ness boards are mega dead, but anyways, i have a question about ness vs peach, how do his aerials react to turnips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHNGMl6Hog

Can't explain but use this as a reference.

 

[odinNJ]

i came for the turnips (bounces off of fair) and stayed for the ownage

 

[R:U:N]

I haven't seen that vid before
Mofo is too good, 2:32 was absolutely brilliant
Peach is just a bad deal for Ness, and I'd say her turnips aren't as big an issue as her edgeguarding and priority
I guess turnips are a part of both of those if you think about it though

 

[odinNJ]

peach is a bad deal for most characters. she is ********, i was just wondering about turnips vs ness because im going to start alting peach and i want to know how to **** RUN WITH PEACH.

lol jk, plain curiosity

 

[FrootLoop]

played a lot of ness today and I decided my hardest matchup currently is mario/doc. The spacing I have to keep to defend against their approaches is much further than the spacing I want to keep to start taking space. I end up being more paranoid of the space between us and so their fakes and stuff really throw me off. It feels a lot different from other matchups where one character has more range in neutral, possibly because defensively ness feels more fragile and mario/doc seem so solid.

any ideas?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

God help you when you play against a good character.

You just need to understand how a Doc player uses pills and try and stay at the optimal range to punish if he messes up his general spacing, while still being safe from all his immediate options. If he doesn't mess up, well, he will just keep pushing you back because he is Ness. So too bad.

 

[FrootLoop]

you're pretty grim

 

[odinNJ]

ness is pretty bad. lets keep the truth bombs comin

 

[Little England]

Heh, Frootloop I have just as much trouble with Doc and Mario as I do with the top tiers. I'm probably worse against the Marios actually. XD

 

[FrootLoop]

haha. lets work on some ness tricks next time we meet

 

[odinNJ]

Heh, Frootloop I have just as much trouble with Doc and Mario as I do with the top tiers. I'm probably worse against the Marios actually. XD

the marios randomly give me trouble too with their stupid nairs and bairs.

 

[Little England]

haha. lets work on some ness tricks next time we meet

done.

the marios randomly give me trouble too with their stupid nairs and bairs.

ya dude. And that utilt. **** that thing. lol

 

[#HBC | Mac]

guys... the best ness vids ever recorded... the vids of hbox's ness tapping europeans/other **** players at progs place... have disappeared.

truly a sad day to have found this out

RIP

 

[The Mofo]

:'( :'( :'( :'(

 

[Bones0]

Important Ness tactic.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Man, I wish Ness wasn't so ****ing atrocious. He's so bad. Like, wow.