thesage
Smash Hero
Fair lasts too long.
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General Ness discussion
- Thread starter thesage
- Start date
Sinji
Smash Master
Yea, ness can do it if peach throws it from diagonally above.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think Ness could fair it from pretty much anywhere. It's much more disjointed and lasts a lot longer than Sheik's, so I feel like it would just make it that much easier.
thesage
Smash Hero
The fact it lasts a lot longer than sheik's make's it very risky to do offstage.
BairJew
Smash Journeyman
Honestly don't care for the p:m ness, if anything lucas is definitely a lot better than ness imo. Ness feels very weird to play in p:m which makes it very difficult for me to get into playing him.
Little England
Smash Master
I don't see how it's risky at all (even if it was the concept of risk just equates to inadequate tech skill). Just save your double jump. Fall with your fair. DJ airdodge as done in the video. Profit.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's probably because his animations look weird. I was playing him trying to figure out what made him feel off, and it was never anything I inputted, only what I saw. The only exception would be WLing out of his DJ, which is weird because his landing detection is completely wack when he's flipping during his DJ.
I recommend you try incorporating DJC dairs (DJing as far left or right as possible). It really brings together his gameplay because it's so fast, and just like in Melee, it has huge benefits when it does land.
BairJew
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, maybe that's what is making him feel weird. Or, it could be that I didn't see any hugeeee drastic changes to him as a character. They tweaked his hitboxes, and duration of some of his moves but compared to other characters I find it difficult to see a key reason which makes him stand out from the other choices. Sadly he seems like he got promoted but demoted at the same time..
Bones0
Smash Legend
That's because Ness already has good moves in Melee. Adding a bit of speed was all that was really needed. Dair is WAY faster. PKT moves faster. PKT2 goes further and ends sooner. PK Flash is faster and goes further. PK Fire auto-cancels. Pretty sure his dash is faster/further. I still have a lot of exploring to do as far as how PK Fire and Flash can be used. I think PK Flash could potentially cover every tech option on a platform, and I haven't brainstormed too much on ways to auto-cancel PK Fire such that I can stay safe and follow up. If there's one thing I was disappointed by, it was that they didn't make Ness's down-B hit or make it jump cancellable or anything. It's a pretty worthless move unless you're playing Samus or Lucario and they happen to use a charge shot.
BairJew
Smash Journeyman
Yeah that's true, wish they made his dwnb more like lucas's its quite difficult to di out of and is amazing sp.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
i'm taking this character to a new dimension
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
do you have any basic tips for new ness players?
Bones0
Smash Legend
lol Good one.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I don't know if HBox knows this, but I discovered a Ness AT recently.
When you select him on the character select screen, BEFORE pressing start, you need to press B, move your cursor to the left a bit and then press A.
I've been doing this before every tourney match and its really improving my results.
I've heard you can do this with Roy too
hungrybox
Smash Legend
that gave me a good chuckle
jesus
jesus
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
ness is so sick
I wish he had a grab range though
I wish he had a grab range though
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ness has a grab? I thought that was some sort of tripping animation that was triggered when I hit Z.
R:U:N
Smash Cadet
I think it's about that time again that someone momentarily revive this board, so...
Odin and I recently got some recording equipment, and we recorded a couple of friendlies, two with my Ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCseqJC6Og
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F58tYvtjDA&feature=relmfu
I was playing a little less aggressive and spaced more than usual
I cringe every time I see all those missed techs in the first vid Dx
Any advice/criticism?
Odin and I recently got some recording equipment, and we recorded a couple of friendlies, two with my Ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCseqJC6Og
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F58tYvtjDA&feature=relmfu
I was playing a little less aggressive and spaced more than usual
I cringe every time I see all those missed techs in the first vid Dx
Any advice/criticism?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think you need to think about what those DJC fairs are accomplishing you. A lot of the time they're not doing anything because you're doing them too far away or whatever. Or they get outspaced because Roy's got a sword and tipping that sword is acceptable vs characters with no reasonable CC options (like Ness).
You could probably CC grab a lot of this Fox's high approaches though. Remember to actually crouch though.
In a general sense, I think playing mostly grounded is the way to go vs Roy. You don't have the range to directly approach his dash dance from the air. Work on your waveshielding. I think you're mostly gonna be trying to get him to whiff grab and then hit him. So pretend he's Marth, but with crappier aerials and a better side-B (again, this is why approaching from the air directly [DJC bairs low to the ground don't count as air] is not very good - I think you could probably jump away and DJC back in with a bair or something vs a bunch of his common ground stuff like d-tilt and grab but I've never tried this, it's just a thought). But yeah, the gist of this is... just play footsie. Like most low tier vs low tier.
I'm not sure what the standard Ness throw is vs Roy. I don't think he's one of the ones where you can d-throw > dash attack (away) / DJC aerial (elsewhere) but I might be wrong
I think you need to get better at moving vs Fox (how you play inside his FJ aerial arc, SH aerial arc, and outisde those ranges) and finding spots to slot your grabs in. You drop a lot of opportunities when he's whiffed in front of you and... dash attack. Dash attack is really unreliable vs grounded opponents (even though the range is beast). Like most characters, even low tiers, Ness's most reliable punishes generally come from grab.
Tech chasing with up smash the way you're doing it is really inefficient and bad. Your priority during tech chases should be either Fox offstage or Fox launched for big combo / additional tech chases. Up smash is cute, but I don't think you should be trying to use it yet... your basics need too much work. Grab is far more reliable (on hit) than the YYG.
If you're gonna guess on a tech chase, might as well dair. It sets up the best combos. And it's an ACing aerial so you shouldn't get ***** for missing.
On that note, you seem really bad at DJC uair relative to the others you use (fair & bair). Fix this. DJC uair is one of his best and only reliable combo linkers. You seem really bad at his standard FD combo but sometimes people refuse to do decent FD combos in friendlies so if that's the case then whatever.
PK Fire isn't completely terrible IMO but you have no business doing it vs Fox onstage. I do like DD PK Fire vs slower characters that like to throw attacks out somewhat blindly (and anyone with a super long WD... so basically ICs and Luigi).
Psi Magnet never did anything productive and it never really should (in singles) unless you're fighting a ******** Pikachu or Samus. It's a terrible move. Fox lasers don't do enough to warrant the use of a terrible move, just ignore them and keep your spacing (or mess around with his spacing, try to slot a dash attack into his landing zone as he's falling from lasers, etc). Fox can trap and kill Ness at 0 pretty consistently with a simple b-throw algorithm so it's not like 3-8% in red beams is a big deal...
Also, if Fox shoots lasers badly (like this guy) and pins himself at the edge, pressure him with spaced whatever you have (doesn't matter how do it - bait him if necessary) and try to push him offstage. Fox becomes significantly weaker without room to dash dance (beware of FJs and such). On platform levels he can retreat to the higher ground but... one thing at a time lol.
I don't like your PK Thunder edgeguards. You could be more efficient by hogging > drop off bair, hogging outright, running off with nairs, bairing at his recovery, f-tilt, d-tilt > run off whatever, etc. PK Thunder can work but... not the way you're using it. And I generally think Ness's normals & aerials are more reliable anyway (and conveniently easier to do!).
I want to say something about nair, but I have no idea how Ness's nair works at all so w/e. Let someone else field it. I hear it's good in combos (like every other aerial in the game). I've seen weak nair > bair hit a bunch of times so there's probably something worth investigating with that.
You could probably CC grab a lot of this Fox's high approaches though. Remember to actually crouch though.
In a general sense, I think playing mostly grounded is the way to go vs Roy. You don't have the range to directly approach his dash dance from the air. Work on your waveshielding. I think you're mostly gonna be trying to get him to whiff grab and then hit him. So pretend he's Marth, but with crappier aerials and a better side-B (again, this is why approaching from the air directly [DJC bairs low to the ground don't count as air] is not very good - I think you could probably jump away and DJC back in with a bair or something vs a bunch of his common ground stuff like d-tilt and grab but I've never tried this, it's just a thought). But yeah, the gist of this is... just play footsie. Like most low tier vs low tier.
I'm not sure what the standard Ness throw is vs Roy. I don't think he's one of the ones where you can d-throw > dash attack (away) / DJC aerial (elsewhere) but I might be wrong
I think you need to get better at moving vs Fox (how you play inside his FJ aerial arc, SH aerial arc, and outisde those ranges) and finding spots to slot your grabs in. You drop a lot of opportunities when he's whiffed in front of you and... dash attack. Dash attack is really unreliable vs grounded opponents (even though the range is beast). Like most characters, even low tiers, Ness's most reliable punishes generally come from grab.
Tech chasing with up smash the way you're doing it is really inefficient and bad. Your priority during tech chases should be either Fox offstage or Fox launched for big combo / additional tech chases. Up smash is cute, but I don't think you should be trying to use it yet... your basics need too much work. Grab is far more reliable (on hit) than the YYG.
If you're gonna guess on a tech chase, might as well dair. It sets up the best combos. And it's an ACing aerial so you shouldn't get ***** for missing.
On that note, you seem really bad at DJC uair relative to the others you use (fair & bair). Fix this. DJC uair is one of his best and only reliable combo linkers. You seem really bad at his standard FD combo but sometimes people refuse to do decent FD combos in friendlies so if that's the case then whatever.
PK Fire isn't completely terrible IMO but you have no business doing it vs Fox onstage. I do like DD PK Fire vs slower characters that like to throw attacks out somewhat blindly (and anyone with a super long WD... so basically ICs and Luigi).
Psi Magnet never did anything productive and it never really should (in singles) unless you're fighting a ******** Pikachu or Samus. It's a terrible move. Fox lasers don't do enough to warrant the use of a terrible move, just ignore them and keep your spacing (or mess around with his spacing, try to slot a dash attack into his landing zone as he's falling from lasers, etc). Fox can trap and kill Ness at 0 pretty consistently with a simple b-throw algorithm so it's not like 3-8% in red beams is a big deal...
Also, if Fox shoots lasers badly (like this guy) and pins himself at the edge, pressure him with spaced whatever you have (doesn't matter how do it - bait him if necessary) and try to push him offstage. Fox becomes significantly weaker without room to dash dance (beware of FJs and such). On platform levels he can retreat to the higher ground but... one thing at a time lol.
I don't like your PK Thunder edgeguards. You could be more efficient by hogging > drop off bair, hogging outright, running off with nairs, bairing at his recovery, f-tilt, d-tilt > run off whatever, etc. PK Thunder can work but... not the way you're using it. And I generally think Ness's normals & aerials are more reliable anyway (and conveniently easier to do!).
I want to say something about nair, but I have no idea how Ness's nair works at all so w/e. Let someone else field it. I hear it's good in combos (like every other aerial in the game). I've seen weak nair > bair hit a bunch of times so there's probably something worth investigating with that.
R:U:N
Smash Cadet
Thanks for the help, I do feel like I rely on DJC fair a little too much for approaching, and it gets to be predictable, so I'll try to start exploring other options.
My DJC Uairs definitely suck, my juggling/general use of them in combos needs a lot of work, I'll try to use it more in practice
Those PKT edgeguards were two of the worst edgeguards I've ever done, I can usually get the tailwhip pretty often, and I've been working on false edgeguard a bit, I just need to get my timing down better
Yoyo techchasing is fun and flashy, but you're right, it's way less efficient than chasing with, say, dair or going for a grab
My reads are overall a weakpoint of mine that I'm trying to improve by practicing with characters that have a good techchase/punish game like sheik and falcon, but I realize that my reads as ness, even if I read correctly, don't always have the best punish, I usually just don't think fast enough and waste the opportunity with something dumb, like the dash attack as you pointed out.
I like the nair a lot, it's great in combos, edgeguarding, and just shaking off your opponent when you're being pressured. Only problem with it is that the range is not quite as good as the rest of ness' aerials, so I wish I could use it as an approach option to set up a combo, but this kinda limits it. I guess I could punish a missed fsmash with it, then set the combo up, but I also really like fair-->grab-->Uthrow on ffers, dthrow on floaties, fthrow if I'm near the edge and facing it, bthrow if damage is really high, but it would help if I tried something else to make myself less predictable, because that's another thing I'm really bad with, I'm pretty predictable, especially when approaching.
The PSI magnet in the beginning was because Odin was just practicing double lasering, but the second one later was horrible, I definitely shouldn't have done that.
I like PSI magnet when I'm fighting a campy falco/fox less because the lasers heal, but really because it forces them to approach, and since I suck at approaching, it's nice to have the option to make my opponent approach.
I could be very wrong about a lot of these things, being that I'm not very experienced, I've only got about half a year and 3 minor tourneys under my belt, so anyone feel free to rip apart my misconceptions lol
Thanks again though KK, I appreciate hearing thoughtful criticism and analysis beyond "Well, you just suck." I prefer it to be "Well, you suck, but here's WHY you suck, and here's what you can do to NOT suck!"
My DJC Uairs definitely suck, my juggling/general use of them in combos needs a lot of work, I'll try to use it more in practice
Those PKT edgeguards were two of the worst edgeguards I've ever done, I can usually get the tailwhip pretty often, and I've been working on false edgeguard a bit, I just need to get my timing down better
Yoyo techchasing is fun and flashy, but you're right, it's way less efficient than chasing with, say, dair or going for a grab
My reads are overall a weakpoint of mine that I'm trying to improve by practicing with characters that have a good techchase/punish game like sheik and falcon, but I realize that my reads as ness, even if I read correctly, don't always have the best punish, I usually just don't think fast enough and waste the opportunity with something dumb, like the dash attack as you pointed out.
I like the nair a lot, it's great in combos, edgeguarding, and just shaking off your opponent when you're being pressured. Only problem with it is that the range is not quite as good as the rest of ness' aerials, so I wish I could use it as an approach option to set up a combo, but this kinda limits it. I guess I could punish a missed fsmash with it, then set the combo up, but I also really like fair-->grab-->Uthrow on ffers, dthrow on floaties, fthrow if I'm near the edge and facing it, bthrow if damage is really high, but it would help if I tried something else to make myself less predictable, because that's another thing I'm really bad with, I'm pretty predictable, especially when approaching.
The PSI magnet in the beginning was because Odin was just practicing double lasering, but the second one later was horrible, I definitely shouldn't have done that.
I like PSI magnet when I'm fighting a campy falco/fox less because the lasers heal, but really because it forces them to approach, and since I suck at approaching, it's nice to have the option to make my opponent approach.
I could be very wrong about a lot of these things, being that I'm not very experienced, I've only got about half a year and 3 minor tourneys under my belt, so anyone feel free to rip apart my misconceptions lol
Thanks again though KK, I appreciate hearing thoughtful criticism and analysis beyond "Well, you just suck." I prefer it to be "Well, you suck, but here's WHY you suck, and here's what you can do to NOT suck!"
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
PSI Magnet is still terrible, even vs campy spacies. It locks you down for too long if it gets hit by a projectile and, if the space animal knows anything about spacing at all, they can convert that into a punish. The risk-reward is massively against you.
fair is probably ness's best spacing tool.
ness doesnt really have any obvious strategies like most characters do (his metagame is severely undeveloped), so it's hard to get good with him when your first starting off since there's nothing obvious to practice like there is with spacies or other top tiers.
i realized this when i first started playing ness, so i looked for any pro or semi-pro ness mains to get a basic idea of how he works and found this video of mofo vs. hax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqze0rnfQs
i would recommend you watch this video a few times and try to think of why he does everything he does. also, take note of how he uses fair. im going to warn you now, if you havent seen this yet, there will be a couple of parts that really excite you, and even though they are awesome, try to focus more on the little things he does. you'll see what i mean when you watch it lol
R:U:N
Smash Cadet
I've seen that video actually, the Thunder Jacket-->PKT Barrier is probably the sexiest thing I've ever seen anyone do with Ness.
I haven't really watched it for the little things yet though, I'll be sure to do that.
I try to take a lot of stuff from videos of Simna, since he's the only Ness I know of that has a lot of videos up, and he developed a lot of the PK Thunder game
I wish I could find more videos of Mofo's Ness though, it's basically what I'd like to achieve based on that video (Simna's Ness is still amazing though, of course)
I haven't really watched it for the little things yet though, I'll be sure to do that.
I try to take a lot of stuff from videos of Simna, since he's the only Ness I know of that has a lot of videos up, and he developed a lot of the PK Thunder game
I wish I could find more videos of Mofo's Ness though, it's basically what I'd like to achieve based on that video (Simna's Ness is still amazing though, of course)
yeah it's pretty easy to get distracted by all of the amazingness in that game (get it, amazing-ness? lol) but try to see how he sets up those combos or how he tech chases, and ask yourself why the things that he does work.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Anyone who thinks Ness is underdeveloped is kidding themselves tbh :/
Hate to sound pessimistic, but he is a pretty simple character. Only real improvement I can see with him would be similar to what Armada did with Peach. Some creative uses for old moves and better movement.
Hate to sound pessimistic, but he is a pretty simple character. Only real improvement I can see with him would be similar to what Armada did with Peach. Some creative uses for old moves and better movement.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Puff doesn't have a moveset, but she doesn't really need it.
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
How is this different from other characters? Are people discovering new moves for them or something?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Nope, but some characters are having new techniques and playstyles discovered for them.
The higher tiered characters usually have more complex playstyles and the like because they have more useful moves. That is why after 10 years people like Javi are making an impact using some strategies that haven't really been seen before. Fox's realistic peak is an incorporation of all the different strategies the top Foxes use with consistently amazing tech-skill.
Ness doesn't really have anything like that.
It is hard to explain >_<
The higher tiered characters usually have more complex playstyles and the like because they have more useful moves. That is why after 10 years people like Javi are making an impact using some strategies that haven't really been seen before. Fox's realistic peak is an incorporation of all the different strategies the top Foxes use with consistently amazing tech-skill.
Ness doesn't really have anything like that.
It is hard to explain >_<
any character can have its metagame improved. metagames change in accordance to players and strategies
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ness's moveset isn't very cohesive (in terms of how it covers his body when he's grounded, jumps, etc). His jump takes forever to reach people on platforms. His recovery is stupidly exploitable (especially vs gimps). He doesn't have good options defensively out of crouch and shield (tiny grab, relatively slow nair OOS, etc). He lacks a good, generic plan to get hits aside from the opponent basically running into his moves. Sheik, Fox, and Falco exist.
I'm open to the suggestion that some of these can be remedied with development. But not all of them.
I'm open to the suggestion that some of these can be remedied with development. But not all of them.
R:U:N
Smash Cadet
That's one of the reasons I hate approaching with Ness, and where I can be demolished by characters with a good projectile game.
I guess that having really good mobility and using mindgames really comes into play with Ness. If you can make yourself slippery, you can wait for an opportunity, say a missed grab or smash attack, and then start a combo. The defensive game is definitely a HUGE issue with Ness though, and it definitely needs development.
I find that PSI magnet can be helpful as a stall to get out of a combo or avoid an edgeguard, for example, if you look at 1:04 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCseqJC6Og
I feel like it might be mega-punishable though, but it could be helpful as like a one-time use as an unexpected tactic in a set, but then if you use it again, they'll probably capitalize on it.
Another thing for defensive game is that I think a DJC aerial can be helpful when you're being comboed, since you can just drop immediately and they won't be expecting the change in direction, and they'll try to read where you should have gone. I don't have an example for this one unfortunately.
Thoughts? (sorry for the giant essay posts btw lol)
Also Grim, that post was brilliant, I had to sig it haha
i can agree with that. i still think he's underdeveloped, seeing as there are very few committed, good ness mains, but i dont think he'll ever make it past low tier lol
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think you're going to have to accept that you're going to be playing footsie a lot. And the onus is likely going to be on you to maintain the spacings for footsie to be possible.
This is true for almost every character. Using mindgames to make up for character flaws is generally not a good answer. That's basically explicitly stating that you need to outplay them in order for it to work. There is a limit to how much you can 'outplay' someone (especially good players) before we dip into the realm of the unrealistic. This version of the game is imbalanced and PAL just straight up sucks.
It's hard to have a good defense when you don't have immediately obviously good crouch and shield options like Sheik, Peach, Fox, Samus, Doc, etc. Fail safe options and resistance to death can make or break characters. The awkwardness of the space he can control is also troublesome (he has really weird blind spots) but can probably be worked around by good movement, patience, tighter DJCs, etc. But the on-hit defense and shield options might be irreparable (not sure myself).
His recovery is horrible and will never be good.
You said basically what I was going to say. It might work once on someone that's not expecting it if they commit heavily to punishing your free fall but it will probably never work again. I don't like it just because I expect people to be smart enough to do mostly bairs, u-tilts, uairs, dash dance grabs, and such when Ness is above them (because that's usually what works best for just about every character vs just about every character) and if they whiff any of those then there's still enough time to keep going (because Psi Magnet is terrible).
I think airdodges are probably your best bet of a mid-air escape (aside from randomly nairing the opponent or whatever) since the invincibility can dodge a move and the directional part can bring you closer to the ground and/or away from the opponent (which are both functionally superior positions than the air in those circumstances anyway).
This, to my understanding, is a pretty common trick with characters like this. Yoshis do it all the time. Peaches do it all the time. I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable with Ness (although obviously nerfed because his nair isn't as good as Peach's and his DJ doesn't give him stun resistance like Yoshi's).
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
His recovery is okay against anyone who doesn't actually go out to meet him I find.
Cause you can aim towards the ledge from every angle, and if they are holding the ledge you just wait until their invincibility runs out (mess around with the thunder) and then go for it.
Cause you can aim towards the ledge from every angle, and if they are holding the ledge you just wait until their invincibility runs out (mess around with the thunder) and then go for it.