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General Mafia theory discussion

Killstic

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Anything that limits their observable options. Continually lower their observable options and as time goes on you'll be able to say "his plan is really stupid" or "that is the opposite of what he has said".

Also, give them more opportunities to lie. The more often they lie, the more they have to remember and the more likely they will be caught.
It seems like questions have more of a hidden rhetorical agenda in terms of optimal application for you Overswarm. I.e. Narrowing options for scum and preventing them from escaping through backdoors. I tend to assert pressure on a single read with accusations or points rather than use questions. However I see it's advantage in being a subtle way to lead to accusations and apply a different type of pressure on a given slot.

I agree with Vanderzant's stance though that I am hard pressed to see effective questioning in recent games. I rarely ask questions aside from ones that I believe would have direct relevance towards forming a read on that slot. I have found though that there are passive benefits such as giving people reasons to be active and to try to draw relationships. I generally don't rely on questions though for direct scumhunting and prefer analysis to analysis i.e. this is my read, what are your thoughts on it?
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Make them leave a paper trail. I don't care if you think they're town. Badger them if they aren't talking.

:phone:
 

Killstic

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When discussing aspects of town losing I feel that there are a variety of issues that can't simply be addressed by town reflecting on prior mistakes and attempting to improve. I feel that certain players on this site have expressed interest in improving, yet still end up falling to similar habits. It is difficult to change thought process and mentality with regards to how you handle a game, especially one that doesn't bring immediate benefits. Some flaws such as inactivity can't be learned. Some habits such as sheeping and willingness to go with trends is just behavioral. Vice versa so is paranoia and fence sitting. Town should never allow mafia to turn into a solo-game or one of particular power players.

In the mafia description itself you have the word "debates" wrt Wikipedia and "argues" "screams" wrt mafiascum wiki. There is supposed to be frequent arguments and bickering between all townies to optimize reads on what looks like TvT or SvT. More often than not, there is one debate and everyone else is side-commentating. If the debate seems well constructed it's TvT, it is turns into mud-slinging back and forth it's TvS, and if it looks like a weak argument without much push it's SvS distancing.

These scales are fundamentally baloney. Solo-judging an act without having a full reference is like looking at contemporary art outside of a museum, you don't know if it's crap or a million dollar work of art. Yet we're forced to do it. Scraping for anything at slots that have a post count in the single digits. Looking for relationships when half the player list is linked to nobody else. It gets unbearably frustrating and you know that screaming at the slot won't do anything. You're just expecting the cop to check them and pray to God that the slot that gets checked isn't the Godfather.

It is fundamentally easier to want to save active players, after all they do care about the game. It weighs less on the guilty consciousness of a townie to have mislynched an inactive than the active. A lot of concern goes into avoiding a horrible decision, but not enough effort is put into pushing the right solutions. And it's because people will put in enough effort to avoid the worst possible outcome when it comes to games but not necessarily have the concern to pushing and executing what is right that is the central cause of why town has lost in my past two games (I myself am at fault for doing this). Having the mentality to push on someone who deserves to win, more than someone who deserves to lose involves effort and I feel that there are not many who want to stray from the easy path and tread up a path of thorns. I feel that being town is an uphill battle and many people refuse to bother climbing.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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This goes up as one of the most embarrassing outbursts I have had on an internet forum board. You can see me flying off tangent in the second paragraph. Woosh.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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Regarding outside of game information (i.e. I have midterms, I got fired from work, I am depressed) I've usually treat such information as null and think that overdoing it goes against the spirit of the game. There are certain conditions that I find unfair for either alignment, such as when someone replaces out of a game and insists they are of town alignment. Regardless of whether they are telling the truth or not, I am a bit inclined to treat such a statement as a town tell as the person leaving has no reason to keep up the charade of fooling town any longer, for the most part.

I believe that elaborating on real life events to justify in-game actions is questionable and should be self-scrutinized as much as possible albeit being extremely tempting when people insist that you are lying. In such a circumstance, it is tempting to tell the truth i.e. real life circumstances side to side with game play decisions. However writing a vivid account and then immediately replacing out afterwards would leave a significant impression on me throughout the rest of the game as the logic made for choices now have basis, a real life basis and the fact that the real life account coincidences with an in-game conclusion, unplanned dilemmas|replacing out, adds credence that the slot is telling the truth or is a giant amoral lying dirtbag who I won't play with ever again.

I'm not sure if I'm the only one who feels this way. And if someone feels differently, then I don't mind reading your perspective regarding this. Sorry for crowding up this thread. o3o
 

Tom

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if i can use real life information to get my way, as town or as scum, ill do it. in the end i think it could only hurt me if i also didnt have any good things going in that game, so it would be a win-null situation
 

July

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Hey guys, just a general question here, but is it just me, or do jailkeepers tend to aim to roleblock the mafia kill? Why so?

I mean, I was just thinking back to PF mafia, and I think Soupa was trying to do that (not positive though, my memory of that game is fuzzy). Before you say, "oh, well that's just soup," I would counter by pointing out that I think it's a trend in general.

What do you guys think, though? What do you do/would do as a jail keeper? What do you think thew best strategy is, and why?
Oh hi, I remember I wanted to address this when I saw it but wanted to wait for Halloween Mafia to be over. My first instinct as jailer was to jail people who most people thought were town but I was suspicious of (which in Halloween's case also happened to be my alliance members at first) thinking that if they really were town and I was just being paranoid, I could block the kill and if they were scum sending in a kill because they thought they wouldn't be targeted (assuming that scum could choose who sent in the Night action, which in this game wasn't the case).

Right before the Gheb lynch I decided to go strictly for roleblocking, especially after the theme reveal which made it easier to block not only kills but janitor attempts, redirects or whatever scum had. I think that strategy towards the end of the game worked well, my early strategy not as much. My biggest regret with the role was definitely not jailing Swiss the Night he was nk'ed, but I had paranoia that he was yakked and opted for X1 who I still had a town read on, but was cautious about and thought was slightly less likely to be yakked. So meh, I don't know what best strategy is, set-up seems to highly influence it though.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

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I love the jailer role. In almost every setup a write now, if I want some kind of protecting role in the game, I use jailer over standard doc.

Jailer require there to be a tradeoff for being able to protect people, and its a tradeoff that varies based on the target player's role which brings some depth to the jailer's analysis as to who to jail and when.

When I get the jailer role, I see it primarily as a protective role, and its utility as a roleblocker as a secondary tool/mitigating factor of its primary utility. The jailer allows you to prevent the mafia from killing off an obviously pro-town or otherwise very helpful player, at the expense of nullifying that player's ability to acquire additional information via night abilities if he has any. You get the boon of keeping that useful person around, but at the expense of gimping them if they are a PR (or if they aren't, perfect! all the benefits for no loss). Using your protective ability to keep very helpful players who are likely scum targets alive should (IMO) be your primary focus as a jailer.

However, there are certainly many circumstances in which prudent use of the ability strictly to RB someone is acceptable. If you've got someone who looks scummy, but for some reason isn't an acceptable or available lynch, yet whatever power they claim to have or you have very strong reason to suspect they have poses significant threat to the town in the coming night, then obviously you would do well to block them. Same goes for if you have some very good reason to think you know who will be performing the mafia/indy/any anti-town NK or whatever, and preventing the action at the source is crucial. Just shooting in the dark trying to prevent nightkills or whatever is NOT smart jailer play. You tend to have more information readily available to you that will suggest who is likely to BE KILLED as opposed to who is likely to be doing the killing (because face it, if you had such a good idea of who THAT was, they should be being lynched, no?).

And plus, trying to indict someone with a case like "I JAILED HIM AND THERE WAS NO NK OMFG INSTA SCUM LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH" is pretty shallow and lackluster at best. A whole slew of thing could happen to prevent an NK at night, namely, mafia no shooting, kills overlapping, something like an abduction out prioritizing an NK, bulletproof getting hit, etc.

You're better off going for easily measurable and direct benefits, i.e. saving useful town players from untimely death.
 

Overswarm

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I like alternate docs. Poisoner Doc who poisons as well as protects (two poisons and they die) can be fun, especially with another poisoner. Roleblocking Doc who protects from NKills but nothing else but still roleblocks is a bit weaker than a jailer, since a jailer removes all sorts of negative effects. Bodyguard is another good doc role I like, as it is inherently balanced. They guess right, they die!
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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What is a properly list for NAR? I'm trying to make a list for my upcoming mafia games and I'm not sure how to resolve it.
 

Swiss

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What is a properly list for NAR? I'm trying to make a list for my upcoming mafia games and I'm not sure how to resolve it.
For which roles? It's down to mod discretion for some.

Also, to my mind, you effectively admitted you have no tailor made roles in your set-up through your post. This is good, I hate bull**** roles, but still.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

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@ RR: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution

For quick reference:

1.) Copy
2.) Hide
3.) Bus
4.) Block
5.) Redirect
6.) Protect
7.) Miscellaneous
8.) Kill
9.) Recruit
10.) Inspect

@ Swiss, what kind of roles are you referring to that are just down to discretion? Unless something is like completely off the wall, brand new, or specifically designed to defy NAR for power/balance purposes, I have a hard time thinking of any that fall neatly outside NAR.

@ OS: Is the Poison Doc informed that if he targets a person to save twice that they die? Or is he told he is just a normal doc?

Bodyguard is a blech role IMO. There are so few circumstances in which actually using your power is warranted that it feels far too gimped to be a more "balanced" version of a doc. Body guard is in fact so weak, I'd probably have no qualms including it in a setup alongside a jailer or something of the like.

As a bodyguard, you really have no reason to use your power unless a confirmed townie is the likely kill on an absolutely crucial night (i.e. you need some confirmed PR to live to produce some clutch results), or you just for whatever reason have more confidence that some confirmed townie is likely to be a better scumhunter or overall asset to the town over yourself. Very particular and narrow circumstances IMO.
 

Overswarm

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@ OS: Is the Poison Doc informed that if he targets a person to save twice that they die? Or is he told he is just a normal doc?
Informed. It gives the Doc a really good balance to his role. If someone really needs protecting, he can protect them. However, he can't protect them again without killing them. This gives the doc incentive to protect prominent players out there that'll still be around late game, because then the doc turns into a delayed vigilante. If you start off protecting Nabe on N1 because of his strong town play but then he starts getting really scummy on D4, you can kill him that Night as if you were a vig. Most people wouldn't plan it like that, but the options it can give you later is huuuuuuge. Lots of fun for the player.

As a bodyguard, you really have no reason to use your power unless a confirmed townie is the likely kill on an absolutely crucial night (i.e. you need some confirmed PR to live to produce some clutch results), or you just for whatever reason have more confidence that some confirmed townie is likely to be a better scumhunter or overall asset to the town over yourself. Very particular and narrow circumstances IMO.
That's what makes it a good role. Your job as a bodyguard is to stay alive until there is an obvious target, then protect them until you die.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

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Heh, didn't even think about the vig potential of the poison doc in late game. That is a pretty neat side effect of that ability. You can be an early game savior and a late game punisher. Definitely pretty neat.

I guess our definition of what a "good" role is differs lol. I'd certainly say that the role rewards/punishes smart/poor play relatively well, but the circumstances in which the role warrants use are a bit too limited for my tastes. I mean, it's definitely not beyond use, but unless I wanted a significantly weak protective role in a game for balance purposes, I'd probably refrain from using a BG. Sequestering a player to only give them the choice of sacrificing themselves as a power, without necessarily guaranteed good results (unlike say, a self sacrifice reviver who knows atleast that he's bringing back a good guy), in a very limited set of proper circumstances, isn't what I would really define as a good role. Useable, yes. Balanced, yes. Exceptionally niche and limited? Yes. That's really its major flaw.

Though I guess Im nitpicking at this point. Maybe what you call "good" I really am calling "great" lol
 

Overswarm

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A "good" role is any role that when used properly results in a massive boon for their faction but when used improperly is a slight disadvantage for their faction, imo.
 

X1-12

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Tell me why it is broken to upload a chart. I could easily replicate OS' chart in text form, hell I could click the side of the thread to show a chart of how many posts people made in the game?
Why is it wrong for him to post data anyone can get? Stopping people for posting Hydra QTs has a reason, so does stopping editing and other rules in every game.

Tell me why stopping the posting of graphs is good for the game? Because it is a dumb arbitrary rule to limit game play for no reason.
Its not that I think its broken as in it unfairly skews the outcome of the game, but merely that I feel the act of posting this kind of data into the game turns the game into something which it should not be i.e a battle of statistics rather than a arguing game. I don't want, and I believe many others will agree with me, a game where who gets lynched comes down to who can falsify data best or who can produce the most incriminating looking graphs. You say I was stopping him from posting a graph which anyone could get which is not the case, I could have looked at the game up to that point and drew a different graph because of how I interpret what counts as attacking and defending. So then me and OS have different charts? Is he lying about statistics so he is scum? Do we argue down to the wire about each post and whether it counts as reference/defence/attack? I feel graphs like this add no value to the game and only take it away in that the detract from the core point of the game (arguing) and promote laziness if graphs go uncontested
 

#HBC | Ryker

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However, me taking a mafia thread to talk with Joey about how pretty all the boys are is also something you think adds nothing/takes away from the game. What you are saying is that the spirit of the rule was not broken and you used it as a method of furthering your own idea of how mafia should be played. That's pretty lowdown.

:phone:
 

X1-12

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Mafia can be played where outside communication is allowed and who won comes down essentially to who can fake mod PMs best, in fact this actually happens some places on the internet. But still, we have rules against this because its not the game of mafia which we want to run.

I'm not arguing this to defend my modding decision in Majoras Mask (hence why I moved this to the theory discussion) but merely to state that I feel graphs of this kind should be banned and probably will be for my next game.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Except graphs are easily rebuked and nonessential, therefore not an issue. I want a response about your nodding decision so I can decide whether or not to join future games.

:phone:
 

X1-12

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I will punish you not based on some rigid chart of x crime = y punishment but instead based on the nature of the offence and the current state of the game
I punished OS for breaking to no screenshots rule after giving everyone a warning that posting charts in this form is against the rules. When clarification was asked for I said "do not take a screencap of your own screen and post it in the game" I didn't just punish him for a rule I just invented on the spot and I did give warning to clarify that what he was doing was against the rules and not to do it again.
 

X1-12

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What do you want. You seem to be asking if I'd have punished him if he hadn't actually broken a rule and the answer is no, I thought that was clear
 

Rajam

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Its not that I think its broken as in it unfairly skews the outcome of the game, but merely that I feel the act of posting this kind of data into the game turns the game into something which it should not be i.e a battle of statistics rather than a arguing game. I don't want, and I believe many others will agree with me, a game where who gets lynched comes down to who can falsify data best or who can produce the most incriminating looking graphs. You say I was stopping him from posting a graph which anyone could get which is not the case, I could have looked at the game up to that point and drew a different graph because of how I interpret what counts as attacking and defending. So then me and OS have different charts? Is he lying about statistics so he is scum? Do we argue down to the wire about each post and whether it counts as reference/defence/attack? I feel graphs like this add no value to the game and only take it away in that the detract from the core point of the game (arguing) and promote laziness if graphs go uncontested
I disagree. A lot. If someone starts to use some sort of complex tool to either lie, manipulate, or to prove a point (or whatever) which no one else can corroborate due to ignorance on that matter, there are still some ways to handle the situation. Clarification and simplification can be asked. If the player using the complex tool (let's say player A) can convince some other people (or even no one else), the other players who don't understand the complex tool can still evaluate which players is player A convincing, so they can still find out intentions behind. One thing is the use of the complex tool, and other thing is the goals behind the use of it, for example, how players are reacting: do they even understand what's being said?, which players are supporting, ignoring and rejecting player A?; if the use of the tool leads to a big discussion between only some few players, then which players are being excluded from this?, and how is player A handling the players who don't understand the complex tool?, etc. etc.

Finally, persuation is still one of the most important attributes in Mafia, if not the single most important one. If player A starts to use a complex tool but he can't convince anyone with it, then it doesn't matter (well... the other players still should analyze why player A used something that no one else understood). If player A was able to convince some people, then the other players who can't compete directly in a debate due to ignorance of the theory around the used tool, can still analyze the consequences of that use, and then use their own ability to explain those results and persuade in the direction they want.

Final conclusion: Mafia can still be played normally. The use of complex tools is completely legit imo, and doesn't "ruin" the arguing element of the game since the consequences on how players react around the use of those tools can still be measured by "normal" players and those respective conclusions can be brought to the discussion.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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It's a small point imo, but it's just as possible (albeit with a bit more work) to produce a table in standard text, or to create a rudimentary graph in the same way, so that it's not a screenshot. By extension, it seems a little silly to disallow images of graphs -- it seems more that you're arguing that ordered data should be disallowed in general.

On a similar note, I often have trouble getting my complex evidence across, and it would be a boon to me to be able to use diagrams I've created, say in Paint or otherwise, to illustrate my point.
 

X1-12

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If I were to implement the rule I would write it in such a way that posting tables in standard text as you describe, or writing it down physically and taking a photo would also be breaches, obviously I would have faith that people don't try to exploit loopholes in the rules and probably even state this in my ruleset.

@Rajam: I know persuasion is the most important skill in mafia games, and what I'm stating is that I feel being able to posts graphs etc of data only detracts from this as it moves away from actual convincing and arguing skills and more towards rigid statistical manipulation which is not the kind of game I think mafia games should be
 

Kantrip

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Is it against the rules to quote posts and tally things up? All the graph does is make viewing this tally more organized. Finding out who references whom is fine, yet showing other people is not?

I don't follow.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Its not that I think its broken as in it unfairly skews the outcome of the game, but merely that I feel the act of posting this kind of data into the game turns the game into something which it should not be i.e a battle of statistics rather than a arguing game. I don't want, and I believe many others will agree with me, a game where who gets lynched comes down to who can falsify data best or who can produce the most incriminating looking graphs. You say I was stopping him from posting a graph which anyone could get which is not the case, I could have looked at the game up to that point and drew a different graph because of how I interpret what counts as attacking and defending. So then me and OS have different charts? Is he lying about statistics so he is scum? Do we argue down to the wire about each post and whether it counts as reference/defence/attack? I feel graphs like this add no value to the game and only take it away in that the detract from the core point of the game (arguing) and promote laziness if graphs go uncontested
Statistics are a part of the game, when you post you add to it. If people want to make a graph show casing this there is no reason to not let people do this.

If people try and lie with a chart, they will be called out on it. If people are lazy that is their fault for not taking the initiative to do such.

There is no objective reason to place a rule such as this into a game.
 

th3kuzinator

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I actually agree with X1 about not wanting mafia to be turned into a game strictly revolved around statistics, but I don't think a mod has any right to restrict such a development. I personally would just ignore the person providing the graphs and play the game my own way or, if it was attempted to be used against me in any fashion, I would just argure its validity into the ground.

If its not a breach of a fundamental rule that actually affects the fairness of the game then there should not be restrictions put in place.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Sure, I don't want my game to devolve into something I dislike, but graphs cannot possibly take into account all the circumstancial bull**** in mafia. It's not hard at all to tear a graph to pieces. If it helps you, fine. If you think it will persuade people? Post it, by all means. There is no risk of such a development due to the nature of the game.

:phone:
 

#HBC | ѕoup

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Using meta to try and clear yourself: townie or scummy?

i've been playing games lately where a townie wants to use meta and i don't understand why, it bothers me and i end up getting a broken read on them.

someoene explain me the use of meta and how it should apply to a read.
 

#HBC | Gorf

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Id say that's totally situational. If I ever self Meta, its innocently and in an attempt to basically say that my play style is totally unorthodox... I try not to derive a tell from it unless the intent is oblivious in the text.
 

Pierre the Scarecrow

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Using meta to try and clear yourself: townie or scummy?

i've been playing games lately where a townie wants to use meta and i don't understand why, it bothers me and i end up getting a broken read on them.

someoene explain me the use of meta and how it should apply to a read.
If it ends up clearing you, it's not scummy then, is it? Use meta if you think its convincing enough to the specific players in that game. If you don't feel you are comfortable in using meta to clear another player (or comfortable listening to their meta arguments), then refuse to listen to it. Sooner or later, the voice in your head will convince you otherwise if their reason is good enough.
 

Overswarm

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I use meta on myself all the time. Regardless of my alignment it helps pit other people against each other, giving me reads and giving me defenders so I don't have to defend myself.

Besides, most of the time its true. I replaced out of MMask and told them "Now you know I'm town because I'd never replace out as scum", which is true. If I wanted I could clear myself on D1 every game :p
 

#HBC | Ryker

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If it ends up clearing you, it's not scummy then, is it? Use meta if you think its convincing enough to the specific players in that game. If you don't feel you are comfortable in using meta to clear another player (or comfortable listening to their meta arguments), then refuse to listen to it. Sooner or later, the voice in your head will convince you otherwise if their reason is good enough.
I haven't seen you in forever.

:phone:
 
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