General Mafia theory discussion

[Asdioh]

I've been on the receiving end of enough of J's TvT walls to know that they're often full of poop

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Then you ****ing call them out on it. Walls are not anti-town in the slightest.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It's a pain to read and completely unnecessary, COMPLETELY. People will skim it and there will be places in it to strawman. They are a terrible strategy for a townie due to the imperfect nature of the people playing the game. In theorycraft, my Roy can beat Armada, in practice, not really.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I stand by my point. They drip of information.

The fact that the mentality around it sucks does not make walls anti town.

 

[Asdioh]

It depends, really. If someone's rereading the game or something, and they're making points for or against certain players, then yeah walls can be good. But if you post a ton of crap constantly, it's a waste of space almost always.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

They're anti-town not by content but by function. The content itself is a complete variable--people can thoroughly fill it with protown thoughts--but the wall itself is weighty and makes rereading a challenge. The people who completely read every wall is a very small minority and it makes rereads more challenging.

Know why I multi-post when catching up? Less walls, more smaller posts. Walls take time to digest, smaller posts are basically tidbits that go down quick and don't take a lot to mull. It's still a lot of information but it's easier to categorize, easy to quote, easier to remain on point (and therefore harder for scum to force topics off the point).

EDIT: As much as I dislike Gheb hammering this point home as a scumtell (walls are rarely ever made with scum intent), he's generally right. If you can say something in a sentence, say it in a sentence. Don't say it in a paragraph. Provide proof when asked.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why that? Walls are FILLED with information.

The problem is that walls in general are simply posts that are not edited properly. Information you could've given in two lines extended to two paragraphs.


Yes there can be useful walls that include massive amounts of unique information, but generally they simply take forever to read and tell nothing that couldn't be told in a much shorter post. It also has the added effect of making the game difficult to read and discourages town from reading it. The longer the game, the more pronounced the effect.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ding ding ****ing ding

wanna know why i never got into time travelers? walls, walls, more walls, 50+ pages by the time i got around to reading, and just general ****.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Every single one of you that complains about walls is a ***** and should quit this ****ing game or man up. You're starting to annoy me.

It really depends on how you make the wall. If you're saying the same crap over... and over... AND OVER again when you can say it shortly, sweetly, and to the point, the only reason you're making it so damn long in the first place is to LOOK like there's much more than there is, which is inherently antitown.

Why that? Walls are FILLED with information.

walls are filled with reaching

My answer precisely.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

The problem is that walls in general are simply posts that are not edited properly. Information you could've given in two lines extended to two paragraphs.

A. God. Amongst. Men.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Ultimately, the fact is that walls make one go off of their topic. It's quality > quantity mang.

 

[Nicholas1024]

ding ding ****ing ding

wanna know why i never got into time travelers? walls, walls, more walls, 50+ pages by the time i got around to reading, and just general ****.

What really amuses me is that about half of those walls were me (I usually make a lot of walls, but in that game I had enough to make a castle), which were directed at Nabe, and majorly hindered his scum buddy (Laundry/kuz hydra). They might make a game a pain to read, but walls themselves can hardly be called anti-town. Good players like Evil Eye and OS use them all the time to great effect. I'm not saying every post should be a full length novel, but they definitely have their place.

And for the record, I do actually read every wall in a game, and I'm kind of disappointed at the number of people who don't. Seriously, if you can't read a couple pages worth of text to make an informed decision on who to lynch, why are you playing this game?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

OS RARELY makes large posts. Quite literally the only player who uses them and gets results is EE.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OS does tend to write walls ... at the wrong time =/

 

[Nicholas1024]

Um, OS does in fact use large posts, of both alignments. I haven't played too terribly many games with him recently, but he used a couple in Megaman X, and when I've seen him as scum he will trade walls with someone to waste time.

 

[#HBC | J]

Every single one of you that complains about walls is a ***** and should quit this ****ing game or man up. You're starting to annoy me.

There's a reason why you're a bro.

I've been on the receiving end of enough of J's TvT walls to know that they're often full of poop

You're full of poop.

 

[Circus]

What really amuses me is that about half of those walls were me (I usually make a lot of walls, but in that game I had enough to make a castle), which were directed at Nabe, and majorly hindered his scum buddy (Laundry/kuz hydra). They might make a game a pain to read, but walls themselves can hardly be called anti-town. Good players like Evil Eye and OS use them all the time to great effect. I'm not saying every post should be a full length novel, but they definitely have their place.

And for the record, I do actually read every wall in a game, and I'm kind of disappointed at the number of people who don't. Seriously, if you can't read a couple pages worth of text to make an informed decision on who to lynch, why are you playing this game?

The problem is that too many walls are absolutely pointless to read. Not enough people seem to either understand or care when they've crossed the line from elaboration into descriptive/argumentative masturbation. If you're trading walls with someone about nothing important, then observers are naturally going to start tuning sections of it out, if not skipping past the thing entirely. You're right that there can be a place for them, but that place is scarce.

EE is a pretty good example to bring up, because his long posts are usually long for good reason. Even as scum, he's often posting a wall because he's explaining a case from scratch or trying to express a point that requires some more critical or creative thinking and needs to nudge other players onto that path. And that's good; that shouldn't go away. But a lot of players aren't doing that. They just comment on old posts or beat dead horse arguments or start talking about things tangential to the actual points.

People who hate walls should not be forced to read all of them. People who write too many walls should learn to economize their words or learn which fights are worth picking. And I say that as a part-time offender. If the pointless walls go away, then people will be more likely to read the good walls because they'll know they're worth their time.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

If you need to read a wall to substantiate a read then youz dumb.

 

[Asdioh]

You're full of poop.

Pizza mafia >:l

 

[#HBC | J]

Pizza mafia >:l

That was the only game that came to mind with you with walls against ya and we were both town. =P

 

[Asdioh]

you got me (the doctor) to L-1 and I was almost forced to claim!

come to think of it, I'm not sure how I managed to get out of that without claiming but whatever

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Um, OS does in fact use large posts, of both alignments. I haven't played too terribly many games with him recently, but he used a couple in Megaman X, and when I've seen him as scum he will trade walls with someone to waste time.

There you are right there. That's anti-town.

I didn't say that he doesn't. I said that it was rare. Also, walls are different from the "large posts" you're referencing. He has a lot of one liners discussing various points, but he doesn't word vomit paragraphs.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

They might make a game a pain to read, but walls themselves can hardly be called anti-town. Good players like Evil Eye and OS use them all the time to great effect. I'm not saying every post should be a full length novel, but they definitely have their place.

That place is small and generally insignificant over the course of the game. Learn to count your words. Don't make a giant wall for the sake of making a wall. We're not obstinate simpletons here, we don't need to be spoonfed reasons to vote a person unless you quite literally are the only one even suggesting that person to be lynched. And even then, you don't need to make multiple pages of data just to convince other people. Sometimes the best scum are caught on the littlest things--you won't find massive paper trails for players like Ryker, EE, Kuz, Gorf, or I.

And for the record, I do actually read every wall in a game, and I'm kind of disappointed at the number of people who don't. Seriously, if you can't read a couple pages worth of text to make an informed decision on who to lynch, why are you playing this game?

I'm kinda disappointed in the people who do. I don't have time to read every wall in the games I'm in unless I'm not too far behind in the game, and I'm not going to pretend that I read every facet of the game. People like you create this mythical standard that I have to read every single word in a game where a group of people are trying to mislead me and are using their words to do so. I don't want to live up to that standard for reasons I've already explained--it's just not worth my time to see Red Ruy and J creating responses for each individual response to each quote in a post that contains about 20 quotes and then read each and every response.

To me, singular walls aren't terrible. I don't mind them. What I mind is walls spawning responses just as big as the existing walls so you just go for an entire page with foot-long posts because people are too stupid to concisely wrap up their arguments in a short-but-efficient manner.

I concede to Polonius: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

 

[ranmaru]

I've been on the receiving end of enough of J's TvT walls to know that they're often full of poop

;-;

I try to multipost to avoid walls... sorry tt's long number of pages was mine and Reyth's fault. Then combined because we also clashed, which was fun.

... Also I'm impulsive... so I just post my thoughts asap. I also do that because I feel it's protown to do so, because I never want to hide anything... also because I just don't give a ****.


Also maybe July's stubbornness (with her questioning) annoys me so I pressure her mayyyybeee a little more than I should [to get a read on her] (like in TT)... I guess this may have distracted me. I'll have to find a different way to read her.

then as scum... oh god I hate it. I am paranoid as ****. I over think things way too much... that's a problem I seem to have too. I over think things... even in a conversation it seems... That might be why I haven't gotten a job from interviews. (I get question, I go "Ohhh *think" then answer with long answer)

Some of you, no all of you... even players on Mafia scum have hated my playstyle with a passion. They really do think I'm scum, and the players who thought so were town...

One of these days I might try a mafia game, and I'll try something different. I was GOING to try something different in Pulp fiction... but no, I wanted to keep posting. I didn't do a damn thing. I got confused by soup + J + WW v Ryker because he was my hunny bunny.

 

[ranmaru]

Anyways. I try to read walls when I see them. Even if it IS anti-town to us, it's anti-town for us not to read them. Or at least glance it to see the main points and see if you like what's going on or not.

The anti-townness of walls comes from town being forced to reading it or possibly missing good info. (I think)

I think I have done catchup's that were SUPER long and everyone really hated me for it, but I was just trying to get responses to most of what already happened. I did learn my mistake and just try a catch up without quotes.

 

[Raziek]

Going to agree with the sentiment that walls are almost always anti-Town.

 

[Nicholas1024]

That place is small and generally insignificant over the course of the game. Learn to count your words. Don't make a giant wall for the sake of making a wall. We're not obstinate simpletons here, we don't need to be spoonfed reasons to vote a person unless you quite literally are the only one even suggesting that person to be lynched. And even then, you don't need to make multiple pages of data just to convince other people. Sometimes the best scum are caught on the littlest things--you won't find massive paper trails for players like Ryker, EE, Kuz, Gorf, or I.

Which is kind of the point of making a case. You don't need to make one as reasoning to join a wagon, but if you're making a new one, then it's probably a good idea. OS has been advising me to prioritize my evidence somewhat, but large cases can definitely pressure and nail scum.

I'm kinda disappointed in the people who do. I don't have time to read every wall in the games I'm in unless I'm not too far behind in the game, and I'm not going to pretend that I read every facet of the game. People like you create this mythical standard that I have to read every single word in a game where a group of people are trying to mislead me and are using their words to do so. I don't want to live up to that standard for reasons I've already explained--it's just not worth my time to see Red Ruy and J creating responses for each individual response to each quote in a post that contains about 20 quotes and then read each and every response.

Seriously, if you keep up with the game in the first place, walls aren't that big of a deal. I'll admit they're intimidating if you're behind or trying to reread (which is something I almost never do, I hate having to reread), but if you're mostly caught up (even a couple days behind), it's not that hard.

To me, singular walls aren't terrible. I don't mind them. What I mind is walls spawning responses just as big as the existing walls so you just go for an entire page with foot-long posts because people are too stupid to concisely wrap up their arguments in a short-but-efficient manner.

I concede to Polonius: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Right, summarized arguments are usually more effective (if only because there's too many players who read JUST the summary), but sometimes there just isn't a choice other than going for walls of text. To take an example, in Time Travelers my read on Nabe was based off an ISO, where I realized none of his reads had any reasoning behind them, and he only gave reads when specifically asked for them (Basically, although he asked others questions, he'd never volunteer any information about what he was thinking, with just one exception). The wall of text I produced wasn't exactly the most effective case ever (although I DID eventually pressure him to the point where his scum buddy had to step in and save him), but how else would you suggest I push something like that?

 

[Chaco]

SWF Mafia Rule Number ??? (as I've forgotten): Walls are anti-town, unless you're EE.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Xonar, to be honest, most walls I see aren't "dripping of information"

Most of it is reaching, and responding weakly to answers, which I don't see as town in the slightest.

 

[Asdioh]

to bring the point home, i haven't read most of the posts on this page that resemble walls

 

[ranmaru]

Nich: Walls can pressure scum, but scum can use walls to pressure town. I would take walls as null in that case. Not just useful for town.

Nich, I appreciated the effort with your cases on Nabe, but there was so much info in the thread that I got overloaded and didn't want to focus on the case, but what was happening. And definitely with Reyth, because sometimes we can strongly disagree with each other and we just think the other is scum.

I do agree that quoting your case again and again is helpful to town to remind them of your case and pressure your target, but only if it is a worthwhile case. I would try to use bullet lists etc so that it looks visually appealing and people don't have the excuse of not reading it.

 

[ranmaru]

to bring the point home, i haven't read most of the posts on this page that resemble walls

But what if there was something incriminating that you could use for your case in one of these walls? : P

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Why do people always seem to misread emotional outbursts of frustration and anger? Too often I see people get mad and vent in the thread only to be called scum because they "faked" getting pissed off despite the fact that they're at L-2, likely to be the play, and nothing they can say or do can convince people otherwise. It especially baffles me when people say this of newbies who probably don't know how to fake anger convincingly.

Is there any good reason for this? The only one I can think of is some kind of innate fear of scum-induced deception, but ****, guys, this is mafia, scum are going to deceive us in more than one way at the start, this stuff's obvious from a shallow level and overthinking it tends to lead to MLs or unnecessary claims.

 

[ranmaru]

Ugh scum has faked being very angry in lylo.

It's hard to tell.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I don't think so.

 

[Asdioh]

pretty sure WL's emotional outburst just now was scummy tbh

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It's not scummy. Like every other AtE, it's null. You're going to give waaaaaaaay too many free passes if you use that as a tell. Not all newbies lack logical facilities.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Fair enough. I'm just curious why people are so quick to call it scummy. It's generally not.

And I guess that's true. I tend to give it to newbies simply as a benefit of the doubt--inexperience at the game tends to lead to those types of situations. Yes, it always leaves the possibility of getting surprised open but I'm willing to take that risk. 9/10, if a newbie gets pissed off, they're town. I think the rare exception to this in recent terms has been probably werekill.

That's not to say it's the only factor of the outburst I consider. Meta is also applicable--Werekill, as stated, is a good example, and you've gotten me pissed a good deal regardless of alignment--but so is the timing of the outburst, the reasons it comes about, and the things they're saying as well. There's specific nuances to a rage-induced townie that can be picked out from a rage-induced scum.

 

[ranmaru]

I know a newbie who purposely Ate'D as scum.

But you are right, it would mostly be legit frustration.

It's situational.

I wouldn't hold back from pressuring a newbie though... Just because newbs can get away like I did from Van.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

How do I make reading Rajam, Soup, Auspher, Inferno, Felipe, etc. not a crapshoot?

You can't hold them accountable because they'll ALWAYS be scummy, regardless of alignment.