General Mafia theory discussion

[#HBC | Nabe]

The PMs would have to include the actual stories, though, that's the only right way to do it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

(Kuz the Rockin x J mafia story has been lynched)

That's considered fiction these days?

 

[JTB]

+1 xonar

 

[KevinM]

I'll assume that was somehow a complement.

I meant as in before going to bed, not that I can't finish your comment without falling asleep.

Sorry for not having further classification

 

[ranmaru]

I thought Swiss thought of it as a kinda compliment because it was considered improvement. ;o

 

[Swiss]

> Assume insult was a complement.

> It was.

> mfw

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

So I have more time to push it to scum.

I really just refuse to bend over backwards and die anymore if I can.

But it depends on if you're good enough to swing the wagon the other way and if you M/L, you're as good as dead. Town is not stupid enough to force the NL simply because one vote (yours) isn't on your wagon, but simultaneously you can't force a NL and then turn around tomorrow and keep going unless you're damn good at getting out of sticky situations.

 

[Jdietz43]

@Swiss: Lol! No it's not modkill mafia, and Zen is being co-mod. Assuming Sold agrees it should be quite legit.

The flavor itself is mundane.

I think you'll like the overall gameplay twist though...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But it depends on if you're good enough to swing the wagon the other way and if you M/L, you're as good as dead. Town is not stupid enough to force the NL simply because one vote (yours) isn't on your wagon, but simultaneously you can't force a NL and then turn around tomorrow and keep going unless you're damn good at getting out of sticky situations.

I'd be willing to try.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

And no one will fault you.

Until your crusade hits the point of being anti-town and just starts to benefit scum, anyway. ;|

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wrong thread but semi relevant so whatever.

Wouldn't hosts consider moving the deadline from midnight America to 18:00 instead? Six hours earlier and that makes deadlines waaaay more accessible for Europeans :v
It matters when you're not there when a game starts up again.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Nah. Too many Americans and a good lot of them don't get active until just about then anyway.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Just about then sounds right. Either you can only play friggin 8 hours after deadline or 1-3 hours (if being delayed at all).

 

[Ramen King]

8 or 9 seems more reasonable to me. Would that make a difference?

 

[ranmaru]

I don't even know. When's deadline again? 5pm? O ****

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ramen add 6 hours to that aaaaand yeah... Doesnt really help.

 

[Ramen King]

Ah gotcha. 7 I think is a fair compromise.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

7 would help, yeah.



however, that would depend on the timezone :v

 

[ranmaru]

7 your time is what my time? HMMM? I might consider

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Why not make it 240 hours from when you start the Day, and 72 hours from when you start the Night?

 

[vanderzant]

An 18:00 EST deadline would suck balls for us Australians (read: just me) because that's 7-8am in the morning depending on DST. Don't really mind though, most of the time deadlines don't hold much importance.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

An 18:00 EST deadline would suck balls for us Australians (read: just me) because that's 7-8am in the morning depending on DST. Don't really mind though, most of the time deadlines don't hold much importance.

Exactly .

 

[Overswarm]

3 p.m. EST has worked for me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So when would a daycop be a good idea in a set-up?

I just find it to be a better cop which can get a freebie hard to interact with during the day cop.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

In a day mafia where all actions except the night kill happen during the day?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Rarely, if ever. The only time I'd use it is if the town is so damn nerfed that I need a clear-cut advantage like that. It's kinda stupid anyway to be honest, day vigs are so much better in terms of a day role.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cop is a pretty bad role in general.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you throw it by itself into a game sure.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Not even.

Let's say you have a cop. To prevent it from being broken, you add in a godfather.

D1, godfather lynched. Cop is now broken.

The best way to deal with it is to nerf the cop itself. Make it X-Shot, have it so it can't investigate if it were on the lynch, Etc etc. That's a whole hell lot better.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Trackers and watchers are waaaay better than cops imo.

 

[X1-12]

Not even.

Let's say you have a cop. To prevent it from being broken, you add in a godfather.

D1, godfather lynched. Cop is now broken.

The best way to deal with it is to nerf the cop itself. Make it X-Shot, have it so it can't investigate if it were on the lynch, Etc etc. That's a whole hell lot better.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13700063&postcount=4131

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not even.

Let's say you have a cop. To prevent it from being broken, you add in a godfather.

D1, godfather lynched. Cop is now broken.

The best way to deal with it is to nerf the cop itself. Make it X-Shot, have it so it can't investigate if it were on the lynch, Etc etc. That's a whole hell lot better.

I'd go a step further with a roleblocker, and a miller with a straight up cop.

But more or less you get the point, cop by itself is stupid, you need something on it since traditional cop really isn't balanced without counter measures.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you throw it by itself into a game sure.

No, it's a pretty bad role.

 

[vanderzant]

Trackers and watchers are waaaay better than cops imo.

Unless they're restricted, watchers are way more dumb and broken than a standard cop. Too easy to use in comparison to Cop/Tracker. If you're scum and get caught by a Cop/Tracker, you can stomach the blame because it's your fault someone thought you were scummy enough to be investigated... but getting caught because you tried to kill a certain player? Or roleblock a claimed power role? That **** is whack and compromises so much of scums natural advantage.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Unless they're restricted, watchers are way more dumb and broken than a standard cop. Too easy to use in comparison to Cop/Tracker. If you're scum and get caught by a Cop/Tracker, you can stomach the blame because it's your fault someone thought you were scummy enough to be investigated... but getting caught because you tried to kill a certain player? Or roleblock a claimed power role? That **** is whack and compromises so much of scums natural advantage.

I agree with this. Watcher is one of the "common" roles I do not like. Like, for example, I can just imagine an example where a town PR claims Day 1 (saving them from a lynch) and then that Night the watcher watches them while scum tries to make that obvious kill.

In this case scenario, town has caught a scum because of a townie's bad Day play.

 

[X1-12]

I like the idea of a 1 shot ability where you target a player and watch them till they die or you die

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

...so unless mafia kill the watcher, they can't kill the watcher's target.

No

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unless they know a watcher is present it can seriously bone what would be the correct play in almost all other cases.

More or less the jist of what they are saying.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

IMHO cop is not that powerful. As discussed before, mafia really isn't a game that's inherently balanced. Just looking from empirical evidence, mafia as a game seems to favor scum slightly. That is, in a situation where you have 7 vts vs. 2 goons, the mafia is more likely than not to win. We add power roles like cops and for the reason of balancing this out, as well as simply making this game more interesting.

I don't like the miller role, which is something someone above suggested to even out the cop role. Especially if the miller isn't informed. Miller's add a factor of chance to a game that should try to avoid chance encounters as much as possible, for the sake of keeping the game as truly competitive as possible.

I mean, just think about it. If by chance, the cop investigates the miller, then the town is ****ed over by something that necessarily isn't their fault. Mafia gets a free mislynch out of it, as well as the fact that they now know who the cop is.

Of course, one could argue that it's the miller's fault for acting scummy. Perhaps. Even so, it's a pretty big punishment to give the entire town for one person's mistake.

I believe that trackers are probably the most balanced investigative town role their currently is. Tracker's inherently have the power to **** town (outing PRs), but they also have the ability to help town out by outing scum. On top of this, none of this is hidden from the tracker. No factors of chance like millers that unexpectedly **** town over. The tracker knows from the very beginning due to the simple fact of being a tracker that they could eff town over, it's just all on them to be good enough not to.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I believe someone on mafiascum created some sort of program that would calculate the probability of who would win in a game of mafia. Without any PRs, mafia was winning. Then, when a cop was added in, it did more than balance it. Rather, it created a massive spike in town win percentage.

So no, I think adding a cop doesn't make it balanced.