General Mafia theory discussion

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate uninformed millers personally.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Cop is a pretty bad role in general.

This

10thises

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

IMHO cop is not that powerful. As discussed before, mafia really isn't a game that's inherently balanced. Just looking from empirical evidence, mafia as a game seems to favor scum slightly. That is, in a situation where you have 7 vts vs. 2 goons, the mafia is more likely than not to win. We add power roles like cops and for the reason of balancing this out, as well as simply making this game more interesting.

Cop's not that powerful because there are so many roles that exist to beat it. Tracker/Watcher, not so much. There's a ninja and the common role-blocker but, outside of that...eh? It's an entirely different form of investigative and no one's really been creative with how to beat it.

Now, with cops, you have millers, the varying sanities, godfathers, indies themselves acting as a cop immune, framers/tailors, etc. A lot of checks to the cop exist. The reason for this is that, unchecked, a sane cop is incredibly powerful. The ability to clear or damn a single player can mean a lot as the game progresses.

I don't like the miller role, which is something someone above suggested to even out the cop role. Especially if the miller isn't informed. Miller's add a factor of chance to a game that should try to avoid chance encounters as much as possible, for the sake of keeping the game as truly competitive as possible.

I mean, just think about it. If by chance, the cop investigates the miller, then the town is ****ed over by something that necessarily isn't their fault. Mafia gets a free mislynch out of it, as well as the fact that they now know who the cop is.

Of course, one could argue that it's the miller's fault for acting scummy. Perhaps. Even so, it's a pretty big punishment to give the entire town for one person's mistake.

Really, millers should only be used in the event that you need to nerf town or specifically the cop. They're kind of a **** role to hand out, especially if they're uninformed; however, there is a certain niche that millers do fill well and avoiding it for personal distaste for the role is going to create some havoc in your games.

I believe that trackers are probably the most balanced investigative town role their currently is. Tracker's inherently have the power to **** town (outing PRs), but they also have the ability to help town out by outing scum. On top of this, none of this is hidden from the tracker. No factors of chance like millers that unexpectedly **** town over. The tracker knows from the very beginning due to the simple fact of being a tracker that they could eff town over, it's just all on them to be good enough not to.

I agree with this. Trackers are powerful enough to stop scum but they need to avoid the WIFOM of hitting PRs. Mafia Trackers are a very cool role that I've been meaning to try, to be honest.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Cop's not that powerful because there are so many roles that exist to beat it. Tracker/Watcher, not so much. There's a ninja and the common role-blocker but, outside of that...eh? It's an entirely different form of investigative and no one's really been creative with how to beat it.

Now, with cops, you have millers, the varying sanities, godfathers, indies themselves acting as a cop immune, framers/tailors, etc. A lot of checks to the cop exist. The reason for this is that, unchecked, a sane cop is incredibly powerful. The ability to clear or damn a single player can mean a lot as the game progresses.

Disagree.

With even vanilla trackers and watchers, you really have no idea if the visiting person is town or not. With cop, not so much.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sleepwalkers/Gravediggers are a way to **** over Watchers/Trackers.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

You're right, trackers and watchers can essentially beat themselves. That doesn't change the fact that Cops are still ridiculously powerful if unchecked. There's a reason jailers are generally more used than docs, or at least they were for a time.

Edit: I know about gravediggers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah Doc/Sane Cop is bad.

Just like Watcher/Doc is.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Lol a watcher is essentially a buffed doc, but cooler.

How about we just ******* everything and move on with our lives?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

*******

that isn't even a bad word

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I dunno Gorf, back in the day (the middle ages day, that is), people used to get pretty butthurt about the legitimacy of their parentage!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Cop is a pretty bad role in general.

aw gheb yu so smart. i hope you been keepin dgames in check

Unless they're restricted, watchers are way more dumb and broken than a standard cop. Too easy to use in comparison to Cop/Tracker. If you're scum and get caught by a Cop/Tracker, you can stomach the blame because it's your fault someone thought you were scummy enough to be investigated... but getting caught because you tried to kill a certain player? Or roleblock a claimed power role? That **** is whack and compromises so much of scums natural advantage.

you have a good point but watcher is still more balanced than doc/cop in a setup with many visiting roles as it requires the watcher/town to actually consider the possibility that the caught person is a pr instead of a mafia (and it gives mafia the chance to fake claim a pr) which atleast lead to mafia esque discussion and not blind follow the cop bull****.

IMHO cop is not that powerful. As discussed before, mafia really isn't a game that's inherently balanced. Just looking from empirical evidence, mafia as a game seems to favor scum slightly. That is, in a situation where you have 7 vts vs. 2 goons, the mafia is more likely than not to win. We add power roles like cops and for the reason of balancing this out, as well as simply making this game more interesting.

I don't like the miller role, which is something someone above suggested to even out the cop role. Especially if the miller isn't informed. Miller's add a factor of chance to a game that should try to avoid chance encounters as much as possible, for the sake of keeping the game as truly competitive as possible.

I mean, just think about it. If by chance, the cop investigates the miller, then the town is ****ed over by something that necessarily isn't their fault. Mafia gets a free mislynch out of it, as well as the fact that they now know who the cop is.

Of course, one could argue that it's the miller's fault for acting scummy. Perhaps. Even so, it's a pretty big punishment to give the entire town for one person's mistake.

I believe that trackers are probably the most balanced investigative town role their currently is. Tracker's inherently have the power to **** town (outing PRs), but they also have the ability to help town out by outing scum. On top of this, none of this is hidden from the tracker. No factors of chance like millers that unexpectedly **** town over. The tracker knows from the very beginning due to the simple fact of being a tracker that they could eff town over, it's just all on them to be good enough not to.

Mafia should favor scum. If it didn't then if town just decided to lynch people on random than more often than the not town would win. And that's awful, town should have to work for a win.

Cop role (and most prs) are awful because it makes the game follow the cop. Cop/Doc is even worse.

Information roles that don't explicitly tell you whether someone is scum or not are good. Good Ones: Tracker, watcher (also a protective role), vanilla/power cop (super underrated)

Protective roles shouldn't immediately punish scum for picking the right kill and/or don't lead to doc/claimed prs scenarios that suck. Good ones: Watcher, Jailer, Neighborly Doc (showin off my own role =p)

You are Ned Flanders [neighborly doctor]. Each night you can pick someone who you would like to protect from a nightkill. If they are at home [not performing a night action] you will successfully be able to protect. However if they are not at home, you will be told that they weren't there. You are town aligned and win when the town is completely safe from all the non-believers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUnH9NECSUU

I agree with you on millers. I think having roles whose sole purpose is to explicitly punish a specific power role for using their power is stupid and just means that that PR is **** in the first place.

Cop's not that powerful because there are so many roles that exist to beat it. Tracker/Watcher, not so much. There's a ninja and the common role-blocker but, outside of that...eh? It's an entirely different form of investigative and no one's really been creative with how to beat it.

Now, with cops, you have millers, the varying sanities, godfathers, indies themselves acting as a cop immune, framers/tailors, etc. A lot of checks to the cop exist. The reason for this is that, unchecked, a sane cop is incredibly powerful. The ability to clear or damn a single player can mean a lot as the game progresses.

Really, millers should only be used in the event that you need to nerf town or specifically the cop. They're kind of a **** role to hand out, especially if they're uninformed; however, there is a certain niche that millers do fill well and avoiding it for personal distaste for the role is going to create some havoc in your games.

Basically what I said above. Whats the point of having a cop if you need to balance specifically against it. It just turns the cop role into a stupid wifom role but it doesn't stop Town for playing follow the cop and leading to ****ty games.

You're right, trackers and watchers can essentially beat themselves. That doesn't change the fact that Cops are still ridiculously powerful if unchecked. There's a reason jailers are generally more used than docs, or at least they were for a time.

Edit: I know about gravediggers.

ah i forgot about grave diggers, theyre pre sick

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Right, if you put a role in that needs to be counter-balanced in some way you already know that the role itself *can't be* balanced.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Posting for double shroomish. And . And ******* being censored is lame. And why not have more VT based games? IMO they're more fun.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

And why not have more VT based games? IMO they're more fun.

this x 2830024802

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fire and Ice set-ups are pretty close to that.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I think including any power role will need to be balanced out, one way or another.
You could probably balance a cop just by adding one or more mafia goons, depending on the size of the setup.

I like cop as a role because it means you have to try and avoid being investigated, for whatever reason. Perhaps by being more active, perhaps by seeming more town, etc. They're not suitable for every setup, by any means, but I don't think that means they're bad.

On top of that, I like having cops claim their results- it helps to focus the game. Everyone knows there might be a cop in the setup, but the question is whether that person is what they claim to be. It gives you a reason to try and read people, and rewards you if you're right about their intentions. Things like having mafia fake claiming a cop guilty on one of their partners is just an interesting thing to evaluate if you ask me. It gives the game direction that it may otherwise lack.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My next small game is gonna have only vanilla roles :3

And people who try to apply rationale to the use of investigative powers: No. People will usually make their decision based on their gut, bias or past experiences. You *can't* predict or avoid to be investigated by the cop - your reputation as a player alone will completely negate this idea.
Tracker and Watcher are both better than Cop - the result is still to be evaluated by a player as there's no "black" or "white" there. Watcher is really damn powerful though but easily counterbalanced by a gravedigger / sleepwalker.

Yes, every role can be counterbalanced. But no role needs as much of that as the Cop does: a GF is almost always needed but on its own it's nowhere near enough. You still need uninformed miller, an unreliable cop variant or a 2nd roleblocker [usually two out of those in addition to the GF] to make the cop not completely braindead. I don't even care about mod-meta at this point, I simply refuse to add cops into my games from now on. What's the point of a mafia RB playing an outstanding game just to get ****ed by a Cop? No amount of GF, Miller or other BS will make up for that.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Didn't OS run an all-VT game, and everyone hated it?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Because pure VT games are nothing but guesswork until they catch a scum and mostly-VT games get stale after awhile. The strategies become redundant and there's no real variance in PRs.

Don't get me wrong, I think DGames could stand to be a bit more vanilla, but not that much.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Though, for the record, my next game (the one in the queue, I'm not gonna host a private for a long time after LASPM) is primarily vanilla but that's because of the set-up mechanic I have planned.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Vanilla games are fine if they have something to keep it original. Personally, I love the onorthodox set-ups most, i.e. what M3D/Overswarm do.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Yes, every role can be counterbalanced. But no role needs as much of that as the Cop does: a GF is almost always needed but on its own it's nowhere near enough. You still need uninformed miller, an unreliable cop variant or a 2nd roleblocker [usually two out of those in addition to the GF] to make the cop not completely braindead. I don't even care about mod-meta at this point, I simply refuse to add cops into my games from now on. What's the point of a mafia RB playing an outstanding game just to get ****ed by a Cop? No amount of GF, Miller or other BS will make up for that.

And if that roleblocker gets caught on a watcher claim, it's completely fair game, right?

I don't like using cops myself--they're obvious and predictable and "Follow the Cop" exists--but that doesn't change the fact that getting ****ed over on a cop investigative and getting ****ed over on a watcher claim does not change the fact that you still got ****ed over. It just happened in different ways.

That's the point of investigatives though: to find information about a person. It could be their alignment (cop), role (role cop), or actions (watcher/tracker). At best, it gives you mod-confirmed information to work with. That **** is invaluable to town--the uninformed majority. Every scrap of information helps them to catch scum.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Except vanilla games make one realize that it's not all about PRs, that some of it can be about reading a player for their interactions?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's more fun in real life though.

Point? What point? I never try to make a point.

 

[X1-12]

I think running more simple, open and largely vanilla setups like Jungle Republic, Fire and Ice, TWEWY or Portal would be pretty cool, but most mods would rather run set-ups they've created rather than simple games like those

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Yea but then people complain about lack of balance.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Personally I love crazy swingy, but still balanced, set-ups.

First game I played on this site was a 21 man mafia game, set-up was something like.
4 mafia
3 zombies
1 SK
1 Cult leader
12 townies

Still one of my favorites games I ever played.

Makes me wish I could set-up an Eor's house of hell game.

~

I know people might want more vanilla like set-ups, but as it stands I'm not a fan of totally, or almost, vanilla set-ups outside of Fire and Ice which is interesting to me for the multiple factions and incaps.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

swingy but balanced just means that more often than not the game will play out to be unbalanced

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I disagree off experience.

Good game mods can make it work.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

But it's usually situational for it to not swing one way. Itll usually go one way if x and y prs are dead first.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Entirely true, which makes it fun.

 

[ranmaru]

Except vanilla games make one realize that it's not all about PRs, that some of it can be about reading a player for their interactions?

I like this post. I favor vt games.

 

[vanderzant]

you have a good point but watcher is still more balanced than doc/cop in a setup with many visiting roles as it requires the watcher/town to actually consider the possibility that the caught person is a pr instead of a mafia (and it gives mafia the chance to fake claim a pr) which atleast lead to mafia esque discussion and not blind follow the cop bull****.

Yeah it obviously depends on the set up; the more Town PRs you add the less useful a Watcher becomes in terms of catching scum. The problem though is the strategy regarding the role. Basically a watcher should be played like a Doctor; you target the Towniest players or those who are most likely to die. In so many games it is often very obvious who Mafia will likely kill, or at least it's easy to narrow the playerlist down to a couple players who are very unlikely to be lynched and are prime targets for a night kill. Without making it too situational, the chances getting a successful watch are increased when you add in a 3rd party killing role.

Even though you don't get an alignment, a lot of the time it's too easy to tell if it's a scum or town based power role based on who was targeted. E.g. If the general Town consensus is that Frozenflame is incredibly townie on D1, and you got a result that Vanderzant visited him, it's very easy to make an edjucated guess that Vanderzant had no business investigating him as a Town power role, unless he's a doc. And this is INCREDIBLY useful information for Town in endgame when it's time for a mass claim. Almost as useful as a cop result, based on results making sense.

Basically, I think that Town should have to work for their scum lynches, and investigative results should require some skill to be used successfully and be based on targeting scummy players as opposed to picking who's most likely to die that Night.

I agree with Follow the Cop being the worst thing ever, and this should just about be the first thing mods check for when reviewing set ups. I don't think Cops are as broken as people are making them out to be though. Godfathers/Framers/Tailors/Lawyers are great checks for them, and reward good play from the Mafia side to take advantage of Town. The argument that Godfather not being a "check" to help balance cop is trash though. If the Godfather gets lynched on D1, that's Mafia's fault.

A cop making it to endgame and having 3 clears in endgame is an exceptional circumstance, and in general requires very good play by the Cop to even get to that situation.

When adding PR's to a game, you should ask yourself these sorts of questions.

"Does it reward smart play by a Townie?"
"Can it backfire if used poorly?"
"Can scum take advantage of it if it's claimed"

You should be able to answer yes to all of those.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MvP: vanderzant

I really did like reading that.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I think running more simple, open and largely vanilla setups like Jungle Republic, Fire and Ice, TWEWY or Portal would be pretty cool, but most mods would rather run set-ups they've created rather than simple games like those

My next game, the one in the premade, is kinda like those ones. But it's not a Laundry game if there's not a couple of catches.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everyone is going to love it when Jester Mafia shows up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Watcher is very powerful, yes. I've never denied that. But it's still easier to balance than Cop. If you want a Cop to be balanced you need one role that can somehow prevent him from getting an accurate result [Blocker, Driver, Redirector, ....], at least one role that gives him a wrong results by default [traitor, GF, miller] and ideally another - unreliable - Cop to create a WIFOM situation around the cop claim to weaken his power. Add the fact that two of these roles are pretty ***holeish to assign a player to [miller and worthless Cop], two of them are immensly powerful and pretty hard to balance well [Driver and Redirector] and that Traitor is not only uncommon but also very hard to play as your options are basically limited to roleblocking [which is already supposed to counter protective roles], using a GF or handing out ***hole roles and make the game unfun for players just to get that dumb*** cop into your game.

Watcher is easier to balance because his "natural" counters are more powerful and because it allows for more creative set-ups. Not only is a Gravedigger or a Ninja very easy to add in your set-up balance-wise [not to mention that Gravedigger is not as much of an ***hole role as Miller is] but also can be counter-balanced with interesting roles like Interceptor or Witch [sadly, these roles are never used here]. And finally, whereas the Cop gives you a clear cut result [and the most powerful one at that] it's still up to the player's interpretation how the handle the Watcher's result.

I disagree off experience.

Good game mods can make it work.

No, they can't. Play for a bit longer and improve your scumhunting skills and your focus on what matters in a mafia game. If we're going by personal experience here then Macman's should count for a lot more than yours.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Watcher is very powerful, yes. I've never denied that. But it's still easier to balance than Cop.

You realize that nerfing watchers means adding more PRs right? And that the more PRs around means a harder game to balance, especially considering that nearly all of those PRs should be targeting players, right?

Not only is a Gravedigger or a Ninja very easy to add in your set-up balance-wise [not to mention that Gravedigger is not as much of an ***hole role as Miller is] but also can be counter-balanced with interesting roles like Interceptor or Witch [sadly, these roles are never used here].

There's no difference between Gravediggers and Millers. They're just as assholish and their purpose is exactly the same: ****ing up their specific investigative. Likewise with the Ninja and Godfather. I have no idea how you see variation between these two. There's not.

I have no idea what an Interceptor or a Witch does though. I've heard of witch roles but they're just flavor-specific names for things like markers/pipers, revivers, or mediums. :v

And finally, whereas the Cop gives you a clear cut result [and the most powerful one at that] it's still up to the player's interpretation how the handle the Watcher's result.

This is the only major difference between Cop and Watcher and, as Vandy pointed out, common sense on targeting makes that gap nominal at best.

 

[X1-12]

Isn't witch like: Target a player (say target player A), if any other players target player A, player A dies

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's no difference between Gravediggers and Millers. They're just as assholish and their purpose is exactly the same: ****ing up their specific investigative. Likewise with the Ninja and Godfather. I have no idea how you see variation between these two. There's not.

There is. A watcher seeing a gravedigger means nothing, especially on a non-kill. There are no such "buts" or "ifs" when the Cop investigates you. When that happens there's nothing left to be interpreted or up to the player's smarts.

Edit: Yes X1, that is correct.