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General Mafia theory discussion
- Thread starter adumbrodeus
- Start date
th3kuzinator
Smash Master
Oh wait you mean before he gets to lylo?
Then add that one to my list of things that are imba.
Then add that one to my list of things that are imba.
th3kuzinator
Smash Master
I thought the argument was that its *******ish because you couldn't have predicted the wincon of an indy. Or was it that Gheb just made an arbitrary position for us to win. Or was it that another game had an imbalanced indy that had nothing to do with ff9. Or was it that I should have planned ahead and baited a scumcutioner that we didn't know existed into lynching someone.
Conversation is just going in circles. Got class in the morning. Toodles~
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
This is why it was *******ish. The arbitrary issue is why it's impossible to predict.
Those were examples of what it justifies.
So what about that "wins at 4 players*" one?
*In a 13 man game with 1 kill per night.
This is why powers that can achieve the same effect but exist outside that scenario are workable. Because at least that's possible depending on your level of skill.
It's going in circles because you're presenting supporting evidence for a main point as separate arguments.
Either debunk a critical point that makes the entire case fall apart or debunk the case as a whole. Don't act like the argument is schizophrenic because you're debating us on different elements of the whole, and then present then as unconnected arguments in and of themselves.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Would a Piper be just as ****ish in this case?
It fits a lot of the issues people are bringing up with that end game scenario.
It fits a lot of the issues people are bringing up with that end game scenario.
Depends completely on the scenario.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I don't like piper as a role, but the only reason it's workable as a sole winner is that it's common enough that it's actually reasonable to apply due diligence to them. So it's only slightly *******ish as opposed to totally *******ish.
Less so if people have some form of indication when they get marked.
Ding !
X1-12
Smash Champion
I'm kinda inclined to agree with Gheb. I got a Wincon once which lied to me and no-one complain then, except me
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Which game?
I don't remember that ever happening or I'd probably be up in arms.
I don't remember that ever happening or I'd probably be up in arms.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
Lol villains.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Oh, that.
I remember saying that was dumb, but you still won remember? You just would've gotten to "win more" if you killed everyone. It was more silly and pointless then anything else.
Also, it was a fracking overswarm game, you knew what you were getting into.
I remember saying that was dumb, but you still won remember? You just would've gotten to "win more" if you killed everyone. It was more silly and pointless then anything else.
Also, it was a fracking overswarm game, you knew what you were getting into.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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If it was Villains, you also won
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
Actually it was the first game OS hosted in dGames, so no one except I guess Rajam/Utd Zac would of had any clue. I remember flipping out because at one point there was a dead Cop, Jailer, Vigilante, my town role which copied other dead roles, and a freaking claimed Watcher (who was town).
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Really? I would've thought he started putting in games to run before he joined them.
I'm sure he said SOMETHING to that effect before it started though.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
If he did it went way over my head. I really thought edreeses (he'll kill me because I can't spell his name lol) was scum at one point because town was already so stacked compared to any other game I'd played >.<
Man, I'm the best.
*fapfapfapfapfap*
No I'm the Batman.
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
Hey guys, just a general question here, but is it just me, or do jailkeepers tend to aim to roleblock the mafia kill? Why so?
I mean, I was just thinking back to PF mafia, and I think Soupa was trying to do that (not positive though, my memory of that game is fuzzy). Before you say, "oh, well that's just soup," I would counter by pointing out that I think it's a trend in general.
What do you guys think, though? What do you do/would do as a jail keeper? What do you think thew best strategy is, and why?
I mean, I was just thinking back to PF mafia, and I think Soupa was trying to do that (not positive though, my memory of that game is fuzzy). Before you say, "oh, well that's just soup," I would counter by pointing out that I think it's a trend in general.
What do you guys think, though? What do you do/would do as a jail keeper? What do you think thew best strategy is, and why?
#HBC | Nabe
Beneath it all, he had H-cups all along
I would personally roleblock in most cases. It's harder to get the correct protect than it is to get the correct roleblock, and the RB doesn't just block kills but any scum night action. And with the RB, it's easier to determine whether or not your night action had any effect.
Occasionally, you can pick out the player who's going to be nightkilled, which obviously is when the protection aspect comes in handy. But that's less often a sure thing. Or rather, maybe players feel more comfortable with their scumreads than their killreads, which is possible. The wide majority of people would love to be a dayvig and shoot their scumreads, there's a greater degree of confidence there imo.
Occasionally, you can pick out the player who's going to be nightkilled, which obviously is when the protection aspect comes in handy. But that's less often a sure thing. Or rather, maybe players feel more comfortable with their scumreads than their killreads, which is possible. The wide majority of people would love to be a dayvig and shoot their scumreads, there's a greater degree of confidence there imo.
th3kuzinator
Smash Master
what i do is just say in thread that the doc should protect _______ (that being the obvtownie you think will get killed) knowing full well i wont protect them. ill then either protect someone else i think will be the proximity kill or ill try and block the nk from there.
either way, you wifoming your protect will save a possible pr that you dont even have to waste a night RBing.
either way, you wifoming your protect will save a possible pr that you dont even have to waste a night RBing.
X1-12
Smash Champion
If there was a well documented downward spiral of an average town's ability in an SWF game would it be appropriate to adjust the balance future games to make it easier for town to win?
Nope .
th3kuzinator
Smash Master
Agreed. Nope.
Would force town to actually learn from their mistakes and play better thus evolving the skill level and meta in its own way.
Would force town to actually learn from their mistakes and play better thus evolving the skill level and meta in its own way.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Yes. Anyone with any formal training in game theory or education would agree to this, or some other steps to improve town's chances.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Considering "game balance" is arbitrary to begin with, I don't see why creating set-ups that favour town more than they do now is a bad thing.
Nicholas1024
Smash Lord
- Joined
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Do you think said spiral actually exists?
As far as to the question itself, I wouldn't object to people adjusting the balance of their games appropriately, but I personally would probably keep it the same, as I'm really not a fan of rewarding bad play, let them know that it's bad and let them lose because of it, and try to get them to improve.
Don't think we've been having bad towns, I think we've been having good scums. I can't remember the last time the scum team didn't have at least me or Kuz outside of Megaman X. Even in TT, Kuz/Laundry was a scum.
The game is going to come down to people starting to stand up to a group of five to six players who run every game, or it's going to depend on the RNG as to what team they end up on.
The game is going to come down to people starting to stand up to a group of five to six players who run every game, or it's going to depend on the RNG as to what team they end up on.
They're no more sub-par than we've had for a long time now.
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
If we're trying to make games as fair as possible, then I would try to make it so that a set up helped town out more than it helped scum out. Mafia as a game inherently favors scum. I mean, just not playing bad as scum is usually enough to get by.
That said, I would not suggest that we make games more town friendly just because of the recent spiral of scum wins. These scum wins should more so be treated as a lesson for people to improve their town games then as an indicator that playing town is simply too hard.
Personally, I balance my games based off of a completely different standard which I will not state. I will just say that I try to make all of my games overall as fair and balanced as possible.
That said, I would not suggest that we make games more town friendly just because of the recent spiral of scum wins. These scum wins should more so be treated as a lesson for people to improve their town games then as an indicator that playing town is simply too hard.
Personally, I balance my games based off of a completely different standard which I will not state. I will just say that I try to make all of my games overall as fair and balanced as possible.
Gova
I'm goin' for it!
I'd run an OS set-up.
#HBC | Acrostic
♖♘♗♔♕♗♘♖
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What type of questions do you find are the most effective method of gaining information from other players. Intentionally left vague.
vanderzant
Smash Journeyman
In general I find questions are a poor method of gaining valuable information. Accusations (or on the contrary, buddying) are way more useful for getting reads.
However, the best questions are usually those that make your target commit to something, i.e. a town read. Spur of the moment questions are also useful, because you can get someone to give 5 or so answers in quick succession and then analyse the validity of the responses later on.
yes
ask them for their reads and why. ask again if they just give the consensus.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Anything that limits their observable options. Continually lower their observable options and as time goes on you'll be able to say "his plan is really stupid" or "that is the opposite of what he has said".
Also, give them more opportunities to lie. The more often they lie, the more they have to remember and the more likely they will be caught.