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General Mafia theory discussion

th3kuzinator

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Also, the argument isn't whether the role is a balanced role, it's whether it end gaming makes sense and why. Each of the examples, please.
I thought the argument was that its *******ish because you couldn't have predicted the wincon of an indy. Or was it that Gheb just made an arbitrary position for us to win. Or was it that another game had an imbalanced indy that had nothing to do with ff9. Or was it that I should have planned ahead and baited a scumcutioner that we didn't know existed into lynching someone.

:rolleyes:

Conversation is just going in circles. Got class in the morning. Toodles~
 

adumbrodeus

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I thought the argument was that its *******ish because you couldn't have predicted the wincon of an indy. Or was it that Gheb just made an arbitrary position for us to win.
This is why it was *******ish. The arbitrary issue is why it's impossible to predict.

Or was it that another game had an imbalanced indy that had nothing to do with ff9.
Those were examples of what it justifies.

So what about that "wins at 4 players*" one?

*In a 13 man game with 1 kill per night.

Or was it that I should have planned ahead and baited a scumcutioner that we didn't know existed into lynching someone.
This is why powers that can achieve the same effect but exist outside that scenario are workable. Because at least that's possible depending on your level of skill.


Conversation is just going in circles. Got class in the morning. Toodles~
It's going in circles because you're presenting supporting evidence for a main point as separate arguments.

Either debunk a critical point that makes the entire case fall apart or debunk the case as a whole. Don't act like the argument is schizophrenic because you're debating us on different elements of the whole, and then present then as unconnected arguments in and of themselves.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Would a Piper be just as ****ish in this case?

It fits a lot of the issues people are bringing up with that end game scenario.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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"Depending on the scenario" meaning "it's OK if Ryker wins but not if he loses"

;)

:059:
 

adumbrodeus

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Would a Piper be just as ****ish in this case?

It fits a lot of the issues people are bringing up with that end game scenario.
I don't like piper as a role, but the only reason it's workable as a sole winner is that it's common enough that it's actually reasonable to apply due diligence to them. So it's only slightly *******ish as opposed to totally *******ish.


Less so if people have some form of indication when they get marked.
 

X1-12

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I'm kinda inclined to agree with Gheb. I got a Wincon once which lied to me and no-one complain then, except me
 

adumbrodeus

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Oh, that.


I remember saying that was dumb, but you still won remember? You just would've gotten to "win more" if you killed everyone. It was more silly and pointless then anything else.


Also, it was a fracking overswarm game, you knew what you were getting into.
 

vanderzant

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Also, it was a fracking overswarm game, you knew what you were getting into.
Actually it was the first game OS hosted in dGames, so no one except I guess Rajam/Utd Zac would of had any clue. I remember flipping out because at one point there was a dead Cop, Jailer, Vigilante, my town role which copied other dead roles, and a freaking claimed Watcher (who was town).
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Man FF6 was a good game. So was villains. And Super Heroes.

Man, I want to host more games now. >_<

Why is the wait so looooooong

*creates 20 new accoutns and signs them all up for Death Note*
 

adumbrodeus

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Actually it was the first game OS hosted in dGames, so no one except I guess Rajam/Utd Zac would of had any clue. I remember flipping out because at one point there was a dead Cop, Jailer, Vigilante, my town role which copied other dead roles, and a freaking claimed Watcher (who was town).
Really? I would've thought he started putting in games to run before he joined them.


I'm sure he said SOMETHING to that effect before it started though.
 

vanderzant

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If he did it went way over my head. I really thought edreeses (he'll kill me because I can't spell his name lol) was scum at one point because town was already so stacked compared to any other game I'd played >.<

:phone:
 

#HBC | Dancer

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Hey guys, just a general question here, but is it just me, or do jailkeepers tend to aim to roleblock the mafia kill? Why so?

I mean, I was just thinking back to PF mafia, and I think Soupa was trying to do that (not positive though, my memory of that game is fuzzy). Before you say, "oh, well that's just soup," I would counter by pointing out that I think it's a trend in general.

What do you guys think, though? What do you do/would do as a jail keeper? What do you think thew best strategy is, and why?
 

#HBC | Nabe

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I would personally roleblock in most cases. It's harder to get the correct protect than it is to get the correct roleblock, and the RB doesn't just block kills but any scum night action. And with the RB, it's easier to determine whether or not your night action had any effect.

Occasionally, you can pick out the player who's going to be nightkilled, which obviously is when the protection aspect comes in handy. But that's less often a sure thing. Or rather, maybe players feel more comfortable with their scumreads than their killreads, which is possible. The wide majority of people would love to be a dayvig and shoot their scumreads, there's a greater degree of confidence there imo.
 

th3kuzinator

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what i do is just say in thread that the doc should protect _______ (that being the obvtownie you think will get killed) knowing full well i wont protect them. ill then either protect someone else i think will be the proximity kill or ill try and block the nk from there.

either way, you wifoming your protect will save a possible pr that you dont even have to waste a night RBing.
 

X1-12

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If there was a well documented downward spiral of an average town's ability in an SWF game would it be appropriate to adjust the balance future games to make it easier for town to win?
 

th3kuzinator

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Agreed. Nope.

Would force town to actually learn from their mistakes and play better thus evolving the skill level and meta in its own way.
 

Overswarm

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If there was a well documented downward spiral of an average town's ability in an SWF game would it be appropriate to adjust the balance future games to make it easier for town to win?
Yes. Anyone with any formal training in game theory or education would agree to this, or some other steps to improve town's chances.
 

Kantrip

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Considering "game balance" is arbitrary to begin with, I don't see why creating set-ups that favour town more than they do now is a bad thing.
 

Nicholas1024

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If there was a well documented downward spiral of an average town's ability in an SWF game would it be appropriate to adjust the balance future games to make it easier for town to win?
Do you think said spiral actually exists?

As far as to the question itself, I wouldn't object to people adjusting the balance of their games appropriately, but I personally would probably keep it the same, as I'm really not a fan of rewarding bad play, let them know that it's bad and let them lose because of it, and try to get them to improve.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Don't think we've been having bad towns, I think we've been having good scums. I can't remember the last time the scum team didn't have at least me or Kuz outside of Megaman X. Even in TT, Kuz/Laundry was a scum.

The game is going to come down to people starting to stand up to a group of five to six players who run every game, or it's going to depend on the RNG as to what team they end up on.
 

#HBC | Dancer

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If we're trying to make games as fair as possible, then I would try to make it so that a set up helped town out more than it helped scum out. Mafia as a game inherently favors scum. I mean, just not playing bad as scum is usually enough to get by.

That said, I would not suggest that we make games more town friendly just because of the recent spiral of scum wins. These scum wins should more so be treated as a lesson for people to improve their town games then as an indicator that playing town is simply too hard.

Personally, I balance my games based off of a completely different standard which I will not state. I will just say that I try to make all of my games overall as fair and balanced as possible.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

♖♘♗♔♕♗♘♖
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What type of questions do you find are the most effective method of gaining information from other players. Intentionally left vague.
 

vanderzant

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What type of questions do you find are the most effective method of gaining information from other players. Intentionally left vague.
In general I find questions are a poor method of gaining valuable information. Accusations (or on the contrary, buddying) are way more useful for getting reads.

However, the best questions are usually those that make your target commit to something, i.e. a town read. Spur of the moment questions are also useful, because you can get someone to give 5 or so answers in quick succession and then analyse the validity of the responses later on.
 

Tom

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If there was a well documented downward spiral of an average town's ability in an SWF game would it be appropriate to adjust the balance future games to make it easier for town to win?
yes

What type of questions do you find are the most effective method of gaining information from other players. Intentionally left vague.
ask them for their reads and why. ask again if they just give the consensus.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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What type of questions do you find are the most effective method of gaining information from other players. Intentionally left vague.
Anything that limits their observable options. Continually lower their observable options and as time goes on you'll be able to say "his plan is really stupid" or "that is the opposite of what he has said".

Also, give them more opportunities to lie. The more often they lie, the more they have to remember and the more likely they will be caught.
 
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