General ICs Q&A Thread

[TheSaintKai]

I still seem to have trouble with randomly dropping the new CG at a Nana regrab. I think it's just me making stupid technical errors and not pushing the control stick far enough, but I've definitely noticed I drop a lot of my CG's in general right before kill percents because I'm getting nervous. Any tips on keeping calm or general B-Throw > U-Smash kill percents I can use?
Also, are there any characters or stages in particular where it's better to do U-Throw > B-Air for a kill as opposed to B-Throw > U-Smash, or is it usually just to show off?

The regrabs get harder at higher percents due to the increased knockback on the throw. I divide the character list into five weight classes in my head.

There's Jiggs/Squirtle/Kirby/Zelda/ZSS/G+W that die around 105 from a noncharged Smash.
Then MK, Kirby, Falco, Fox, Shiek, Olimar, Pika, around that weight. They die around 110.
Marth/Peach, Luigi, Lucario, Mario, Toon Link, Diddy, Pit, Ness, Lucas. These die around 120.
Then there are the semi heavies, which die around 135, these include Ike, Ivysaur, Samus, Sonic, Yoshi, and Wolf/ROB are right on the edge.
Finally there are heavies, which are Wario, Snake, Charizard, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganon, Bowser, D3, Donkey Kong. They die somewhere around 145.

Except D3 and DK, who are ****ing ******** and die at like 160.



And that finisher is only for styling on people. Don't use it unless you're wholly confident in winning.

 

[Rykard]

i've always found that repeated forward throws was probably the easiest thing to do against like 90% of the cast. the only really weird ones that i ever had a problem with were ROB, ness, and lucas using this method for some reason, but that was obviously just me. I needed to back throw was when i was near a ledge to turn around obviously, but it always seemed the most natural to me and the timing is really similar for pretty much everyone.

Also, are there any characters or stages in particular where it's better to do U-Throw > B-Air for a kill as opposed to B-Throw > U-Smash, or is it usually just to show off?

generally just to show off i would assume. the smash attacks will always be more powerful than a bair, especially since you charge them slightly before having your partner throw them into you.

If you want to get really fancy though, you could always have Nana downthrow and while she is in the throw animation, jump and up - b the character while they bounce into it

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i throw them up and hit them with the hitbox of fsmash that sends them up and backwards at the top of the hammer. it looks so lulzy

 

[Cygnet]

Is there anything wrong with using repeated fthrows and then a hobble or bthrow at the end of the stage? It's the same timing for every character and everything, but I don't see it being used much.... why?

That being said, I have a lot of trouble with the spacing for fthrow on round characters like MK.... what should the correct spacing be? I haven't seen a video of anyone doing an fthrow CG on MK that I can recall...

Also, I don't know if this is a good question, but I'm finding the Pfthrow-Nbthrow CG to be incredibly impossible to do even once for me personally..... does anyone have any useful tips on how they learned to do it? I've been trying for a long, long time and I just don't get it.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Is there anything wrong with using repeated fthrows and then a hobble or bthrow at the end of the stage? It's the same timing for every character and everything, but I don't see it being used much.... why?

Other than hobbling being SDI-able, not really much of anything. You just need to space yourself and time it properly so they won't have time to mash and so that you can get out the reps efficiently. Also, if you were to get it on, say a platform, how much good is it going to do you, since they can easily SDI off when you hobble? Plus you only get about 2 Fthrows worth of damage on like anything but YI's platforms, which you can hobble on consistently either.

That being said, I have a lot of trouble with the spacing for fthrow on round characters like MK.... what should the correct spacing be? I haven't seen a video of anyone doing an fthrow CG on MK that I can recall...

Also, I don't know if this is a good question, but I'm finding the Pfthrow-Nbthrow CG to be incredibly impossible to do even once for me personally..... does anyone have any useful tips on how they learned to do it? I've been trying for a long, long time and I just don't get it.

For both of these, just practice. Most CGing questions can be simplified to "Just keep practicing." All of what you're asking comes with practice and experience.

 

[Roller]

Saint, DK and D3 do NOT need to be at 160 to kill them. That's absurd. Throw and charge. I usually get DK to ~125 or so and do a partially charged smash to finish.

 

[-LzR-]

The problem with Fthrow all the way the stage to bthrow or hobble is that it takes so much room. Good luck doing that to Diddy Kong when the stage is full of hazards or on a small platform or on pretty much any stage that isn't static.

 

[Rykard]

The problem with Fthrow all the way the stage to bthrow or hobble is that it takes so much room. Good luck doing that to Diddy Kong when the stage is full of hazards or on a small platform or on pretty much any stage that isn't static.

wouldn't it work the same for both situations you just described though? You would forward throw to the end of the platform, then back throw and repeat until the end of the other side and then back throw again. and if there is a banana, you would forward throw till you see the banana, then back throw away from it. I honestly don't see why so many of you debate which chaingrab you should learn or which one is better than the other. The important thing is that you don't drop them when you get a grab, not how you do it, so just practice to be as consistent as possible with whatever method works for you.

 

[dettadeus]

@Cygnet while I was practicing the Bthrow > Fthrow, I got a pretty good idea of the timing and spacing.
You get a grab with Popo. Wait about half a second for Nana to be finished with her whiffed grab and resynced at your side. Slide the control stick backwards relatively slowly so that Nana will begin to walk back slightly as Popo does the Bthrow. Then you input grab about halfway through Popo's throw animation because her grab has whatever the normal startup is plus the 6 frames of lag between the climbers. Then it's just an Fthrow like normal, but Nana will probably be a bit further than usual which is why I started using Dthrow after a turn around so I had more time to regain my spacing.

@All thanks for the helpful info, I'll be sure to keep it in mind while I practice.
It still seems like the U-Throw B-Air would be better for killing on a stage like Japes where the vertical blastline is crazy and the horizontal blastlines are close, but I can deal with not getting to use it that often.

 

[-LzR-]

wouldn't it work the same for both situations you just described though? You would forward throw to the end of the platform, then back throw and repeat until the end of the other side and then back throw again. and if there is a banana, you would forward throw till you see the banana, then back throw away from it. I honestly don't see why so many of you debate which chaingrab you should learn or which one is better than the other. The important thing is that you don't drop them when you get a grab, not how you do it, so just practice to be as consistent as possible with whatever method works for you.

Except that is harder. The timing for Fthrow is different for Nana and Popo and you'll have to learn the bthrow anyways. It's just more work.

 

[Roller]

You shouldn't really be needing to hobble diddy anyway. Heavies/mid-heavies are the only characters you should really even consider it for. I sometimes do it to triplessly turn around snake for instance. But you should always have another option ready. You need to be able to threaten cging on the BF/SV platforms.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lol all i do with ics is fthrow when i use them, only cg i can still do from when i considered seconding them two years ago

 

[TheSaintKai]

Saint, DK and D3 do NOT need to be at 160 to kill them. That's absurd. Throw and charge. I usually get DK to ~125 or so and do a partially charged smash to finish.

I must be doing it wrong then. ):

 

[clowsui]

I can't really see myself quitting smash though, it's been part of my life since I was 13, and I'm 23 lol. Just not going to as active for the next few years unless something sparks my interest and will probably be playing like Ics/Falco/MK/Marth instead of just one character.

Myself and a good amount of other TO's might host a national in the midwest and try to make it bigger than apex through getting a LOT of sponsors and buying all the Tv's and set-ups ourself ect. That won't be for a few years though if at all.

It'll be within the next two years.

 

[Roller]

We're in the infancy stages of holding a smaller scale national in MI in ~a year. The sequel to The Big House, which was a 100+ man Melee tourney we held last semester including east and west coast melee players. This sequel would include Brawl and be a bit bigger than last time, but yeah. Basically a regional+ decent # of out of region attendees. Not Apex size.

Good luck to you guys with that one though, hope it pans out.

 

[dettadeus]

Probably going to be my last couple questions for a while.

-Should I bother to learn how to Hobble? I know with the B-throw F-Throw chaingrab it's not a very reliable method, but are there characters, stages, percent ranges etc. where it's preferable to Hobble for a bit over doing a normal CG?
-Any general tips on the Lucario matchup? When to try and get grabs, how to deal with Lucario getting to crazy percents, things like that.

 

[Smoom77]

Focus on the good chaingrabs first (Popo: Fthrow, Nana:bthrow). Hobbling for when you're sorta bored. It is useful when you're choking mid-match.

Lucario: I'm a horrible explainer. Here's a video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKJ-9kGL4b4
If you have specific questions, just ask them here.

 

[DeLux]

I got 13 seconds into that video and had to stop watching from laughing lol

 

[Smoom77]

thanks for making me feel like an idiot

 

[Rykard]

lol nana was just like peace i'm outta here

 

[dettadeus]

Alright, don't let Nana kill herself.
Good to know.

 

[Cygnet]

For both of these, just practice. Most CGing questions can be simplified to "Just keep practicing." All of what you're asking comes with practice and experience.

I guess what I really meant was that I can't practice it because I can't do it in the first place, probably because I'm fundamentally misunderstanding something.

As for the Pfthrow-Nbthrow CG, after trying to grind it out for a few hours today, I still don't understand how to have Popo grab Nana's bthrow because he's already behind her, so how can he turnaround grab the opponent....?

That being said, I still did it a few times randomly, but I don't know what I'm actually doing wrong when it goes wrong. It seems like I'm doing the same thing, but it works sometimes and not other times.

Some times Popo will not turn around, some times he will shield instead of grab, but the vast majority of the time, he's just in front of the opponent (not sure how to describe this), even though I try to minimize space between the climbers during the Pfthrow.

I've seen videos, but that just teaches me what it looks like, not how to do it, so I can't practice it at all.

Help....? ;__;

 

[Attila_]

You have to fthrow with a very small step forward, and buffer the bthrow.

It's hard.

One question I have: I was messing around with what I think is 'the kakera desynch', and was wondering if anyone could tell me precisely what the inputs are. It feels like light press back, hard press forward and then b, in immediate succession, but I'm not sure exactly when I'm supposed to be pressing them.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

kakera desync = dash back, dash forward and then at a certain timing use ice bloc/blizzard.

 

[Attila_]

Do you what the timing is from a frame perspective? Easier to do if I can visualize it.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Do you what the timing is from a frame perspective? Easier to do if I can visualize it.

Do a dash dance, and instead of stopping, keep going into the run. Once you get used to that, just practice getting the animation as short as possible, and stopping with shield. when you get it as short as you can, start adding in ice block/blizzard.

 

[DeLux]

Variation in the 2 dash dance:

If you simply dash cancel the second dash, Popo will act first.
If you go into run after the second dash, there is a frame window where Nana will act first.

Shmot described an SND in his original question.

 

[dettadeus]

Oh, that's what that one desync was called. The one where you can follow up with an Ice Block Chase or whatever it is.

Took me a bit of time to learn how to do it, but since I learned how to do the Dash free-pull with Peach, the timing is relatively easy since they're basically the same timing.
Dash backwards > Wavebounce ice block after about half a second is what the desync thread said, and it's a pretty accurate description.

 

[Attila_]

Nah I know of the snd, and that wasn't what I was referring. Maybe it is a hard press back... I dunno.

The timing seems hella strict though.

 

[DeLux]

Instead of the inputs, you should describe what the climbers actually do and then I could probably tell you what inputs you are making lol

 

[Attila_]

popo appears to dash dance ice block, will nana moves behind him with a forwards dash animation.

 

[Cygnet]

Just noticed while practicing the Pfthrow-Nbthrow CG that bthrow's speed is weight dependent so when I'm CGing DDD or something, I have to hold back for longer, if that makes any sense.... what should I be doing about it if I'm doing that CG? (Darn, I thought it would've been weight independent.)

 

[Aefice]

how safe is bair on block?

which characters can ice climbers beat in the air?

 

[DeLux]

Just noticed while practicing the Pfthrow-Nbthrow CG that bthrow's speed is weight dependent so when I'm CGing DDD or something, I have to hold back for longer, if that makes any sense.... what should I be doing about it if I'm doing that CG? (Darn, I thought it would've been weight independent.)

You should be waiting for the regrab window to occur and then press grab. It's pretty easy to visual cue because of the bthrow animation

how safe is bair on block?

which characters can ice climbers beat in the air?

Character dependent

Define "beat in the air". General rule of thumbs is we get stomped on by most characters if they are below us. I'd venture to say that if you drew a circle around us, we'd be kind of screwed for 240 degrees of the circle

 

[Rubberbandman]

how safe is bair on block?

which characters can ice climbers beat in the air?

Bair is pretty safe, but yeah, depends on the character and context of usage. For safety measures, I like SH Bair -> Ftilt/Dtilt.

If you're thinking of beating someone in the air, you might as well have just waited on the ground and baited/punished something else most of the time imo.

 

[hedgehog9597]

Bungie jumping

hey, I read on smash wikia that there is an ICs tech called bungee jumping... anyone care to explain what this is? Here's the link to the article that mentions it:
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Belay#Bungie_Jumping

 

[Rubberbandman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-RHxha0VX4

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so why don't people do the pummel infinite with ICs? wats the disadvantage?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Unreliable due to buffering, and we could be doing more damage by CGing anyway, + they have a chance of air release.

 

[Rubberbandman]

so why don't people do the pummel infinite with ICs? wats the disadvantage?

Is this really even a question?

Percent dealt over time is much, much, much less than doing a CG.
You can only do it in one direction.
Percent is not guaranteed because staling can make the pummels do 1/2 to 1/3 of a percent.
Air release is pretty common.
Against opponents with DPs, you have to be frame perfect or risk taking it in the face.
Everyone else can spotdodge if you're off by a frame.
etc.
Its really, would you rather do 5% in 5 seconds that isnt guaranteed or 70% in 5 seconds that's unavoidable? Its a bad trade off.