General ICs Q&A Thread

[Maharba the Mystic]

i see all these questions about different types of desyncs. **** im gonna have to spend like a whole day reading everything in these boards sometime because im so lost on any desync that isn't the beginning of the game desync and dash dance>popo roll backwards while nana spins in a circle and then runs to popo

edit:

how is it possible to count frames while you play without the frame tool? you guys always say between this frame and that frame, but isn't that humanly impossible to see like that?

 

[Rubberbandman]

how come nobody downthrow > fairs anymore at low percents for a regrab?

DI-able, SDI-able. Not even guaranteed for death at the edge either; Fair sucks. Fair hobbling could catch on on the characters in works on, at least.

Lux, define LD1 for me. Also, gonna try to make LD2 out of crouch my primary/secondary desynch option.

Primaries:
Kakera desynch (Since thats what everyone is calling the delayed dash dance)
Triple Dash Dance

Secondaries:
Dtilt Desynch (:V)
Squall Desynch
Belay Desynch

I really need to use different desynching options. >_>

 

[DeLux]

i see all these questions about different types of desyncs. **** im gonna have to spend like a whole day reading everything in these boards sometime because im so lost on any desync that isn't the beginning of the game desync and dash dance>popo roll backwards while nana spins in a circle and then runs to popo

You're worrying too much. One thing at a time and you'll get there. I could honestly play whole matches using only two different desync options and not see a huge fall off in the success of my gameplay. There would be a slight fall off, but not a huge one.

how is it possible to count frames while you play without the frame tool? you guys always say between this frame and that frame, but isn't that humanly impossible to see like that?

I tell people frame data because it gives them a general idea on what the timing is for everything. Since frame is the most standardized time thing for us to work off for Brawl, I just throw around frame data. Most of the techniques are in small frame windows, so we need that precision to discuss thing adequately.

When you play, it gives you a ball park to work of and then you can fine tune yourself if you go to fast or too slow based on your approx guess based on frame data more or less.

DI-able, SDI-able. Not even guaranteed for death at the edge either; Fair sucks. Fair hobbling could catch on on the characters in works on, at least.

Lux, define LD1 for me. Also, gonna try to make LD2 out of crouch my primary/secondary desynch option.

Primaries:
Kakera desynch (Since thats what everyone is calling the delayed dash dance)
Triple Dash Dance

Secondaries:
Dtilt Desynch (:V)
Squall Desynch
Belay Desynch

I really need to use different desynching options. >_>

LD1 is buffering a walk input followed by an immediate reverse initial dash out of every buffer period that isn't caused by roll, spot dodge, same direction blizzard, Ib, grab, dash grab , pivot grab, getup options, ledge option, tautns.
LD2 out of roll is amazing btw ><

 

[Rubberbandman]

how is it possible to count frames while you play without the frame tool? you guys always say between this frame and that frame, but isn't that humanly impossible to see like that?

As lux just said, It just gives you an estimate. Like when I try to practice RID desynch or LD2, I look for certain parts of the animation to help time. (RID, I look at popo's shoes during the dash animation and time it to that; LD2, I look for when popo turns around and "count" to find the dash timing.)

I haven't learned LD2 out of roll, Luxy. Its just not what I'm looking for for it.

Also, I'm calling nana's spin for LD's Blonde Spinning, like I said before. It has that certain nana ring to it. :V

 

[Aefice]

delux, what do you think of squall as an approach? noticed u were using it against ocean.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i know i've asked this a long time ago, but where is the thread that tells how to do ld1 and ld2? and what is RID?

 

[DeLux]

It's matchup dependent ><

I just wanted to get Ocean up in the air to get the lead via Uair and Rob's Gyro sort of shuts down most of my normal game, so Squall was the fastest way without risking getting shot at by every projectile in the world. From scouting before hand, I knew Ocean was the best ROB in the world with his gyro, so I didn't bother too much trying to get through it with shield like I normally do. I eventually had to abandon squall except for mixups as the match wore on and went to what I normally did, because I overestimated how much his gyro would affect things.

Generally I try to stay away from it because it's really punishable, but against ROB specifically there aren't really many more options if they are good at gyro and tilt spacing imo. It's SDIable and out disjointable, so normally works against everyone except those that know how to abuse it. If they know how to abuse it, it can be bad news

If I got super behind, I was thinking of taking a gamble of blatantly squalling on his shield and using squall desync to try to grab, but I died before that could happen :D

ROB is one of weaker matchups overall imo because he's like a counter to how I normally like to play

 

[Rubberbandman]

delux, what do you think of squall as an approach? noticed u were using it against ocean.

Rob tends to be able to SDI out of Squall less, and it does good vs larger characters in the first place. Too bad Lasers shut it down in a flash and the fact that its not really good overall.

i know i've asked this a long time ago, but where is the thread that tells how to do ld1 and ld2? and what is RID?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298822

That has LD2. LD1, I have to search way, way back.

RID = Reverse intial dash desynch. Dash in the opposite direction and buffer a command. If you did it right, only nana will perform it. Too fast = Neither character does the move; Too slow, both characters do the move. Its frame perfect and not really applicable for an actual match imo, its good in theory though.

 

[Rykard]

I just wanted to get Ocean up in the air to get the lead via Uair and Rob's Gyro sort of shuts down most of my normal game, so Squall was the fastest way without risking getting shot at by every projectile in the world.

you can stop Gyros with ice blocks and in turn shoot a grounded projectile that may cause a jump to occur to avoid them. If he wants to jump and Gyro after that, than at least he is in the air and you can work around your normal shield game to stop the Gyros/beams coming at you. blizzards also work too, but the beam goes through them, so maybe alternating between a desynced blizzard and ice block while still trying to close the gap through dashing and shielding. i've been watching a ton of Apex matches recently and i remember yours in particular for some reason. it looked like you were playing fine to me, but just dropped a couple of grabs and got hit by Nair a lot

 

[DeLux]

Playing Desynced is asking to get lasered >_>

I mean, I can play synced against TL so it's not dealing with projectiles that the problem. It's that laser goes through people and shields so I can't meat shield cover my other climber so desync walking is like a bad idea

In game 1 I counted six guaranteed grab punishes that I missed / passed on / didn't convert. In game 2 I counted 4. I got impatient and got hover baited by nair, which is why I said I played poorly that set because I needed to be more patient.

Lesson learned, you can't be giving elite players free stocks if you hope to win

 

[Sieguest]

you can stop Gyros with ice blocks and in turn shoot a grounded projectile that may cause a jump to occur to avoid them.

It's true the ice blocks will stop the gyro movement but the gyro will still remain as an active targetbox. The gyro will eat both ice blocks and any future ice blocks for as long as it's just on the ground spinning, so I don't see you being in any situation to force a jump (Guess you could always somehow then pick up the gyro and use that with IBs to make something happen. heh).

On an unrelated note: Clicked the link in your signature.... slick my good man, very slick.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i use gyro to control ib movement. ideally i should have the percent lead, so putting a gyro in front of me really negates any long range anti camp ivs has and forces them to make some sort of action to either cancel the gyro or go around it, and i can then counter to either rack damage or seperate

 

[BadKarma]

is it possible to do dash attack out of shield? or is the only way to drop shield then dash attack? It would be so amazing to be able to do boost pivot grab out of shield.
Thanks.

 

[Sieguest]

Have to drop your shield first.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could someone give me a list of the most practical desyncs?

I basically only use dash-dance and pivot ice block at the moment lol.

 

[Rykard]

i feel like ICs need to realize they got to take some percent to get in because when they do, it's over.

btw for anyone wondering where the hell i came from. i was one of the original IC mains back in 08-09 but dropped brawl for a long time to work on melee. After watching Apex matches, it made me realize a lot of things i have been missing out on and how i want to get back into the brawl scene as well. It also helps that San goes goes to school about 10 minutes from me so i can get plenty of practice if i wanted it.

also, speaking of desyncs, all the ones that i am seeing from you involve nana attacking first which is weird cause the one i always used to do was a dash dance to an Ice block that the popo threw out. I'm pretty sure it was because of the standing/neutral frame in-between a dash dance allows you to do anything so while nana completed her dash, the Ice block from popo would come out.

 

[Hylian]

You were probably just doing a pivot desynch.

 

[-LzR-]

I use the SND IB thing. Where I turn around and then press forward and IB.
I guess that's legit, I don't even know anything else.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I use the SND IB thing. Where I turn around and then press forward and IB.
I guess that's legit, I don't even know anything else.

Pretty much the same thing here haha

 

[Sieguest]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243922

It may be out of date (majorly) but it still has relevant desyncs in there. C'mon now people....

And the link a few posts above my own:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298822

 

[F A N G]

Sorry, not "better", but what are some advantages or disadvantages of double dash dance desync versus triple dash dance desync?

Also this is the post that had LD1/LD2 stuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12628390&postcount=13

 

[Rubberbandman]

Dash Dance:
Pros:
> Pretty Basic Desynch, not really hard to mess up.
> Allows for Popo to charge a smash.
Cons:
> Lowered mobility due to Popo going first. (Unless shield buffered)
> More vulnerable due to having to stop your run completely for it to function.

Delayed Dash Dance (Kakera):
Pros:
>Can Charge Smashes with Nana out of shielding, giving you more frame traps.
>Allows you to go right into shield as soon as you'd like.
>Popo is less likely to get punished.
>Popo can edge hug while nana stays on stage so you are able to get better punishes.

Cons:
>You are more vulnerable to getting hit during the dash animation because you're in it longer than a standard dashing animation. (You can't shield during a dash animation)

Triple Dash dance
Pros:
> Its extremely easy to use and makes for a nice basic set up.
>Its pretty fast to do, maybe the fastest of the dash dances.

Cons:
>Nana can't use smashes out of it, only Ice Blocks and Blizzard.
>Nana doesn't lag as far behind you, so you cant use it to self edge hug while nana stays on stage.
>Nana not lagging as far behind makes it so that when you're to be it, she won't be in synch range, making her extra vulnerable to hits.
>3 Dash Dances means even more vulnerable to being hit while trying to start it.

That should be everything.

 

[DeLux]

I tend to think of desync options in terms of spacing commitment and startup/cooldown, kind of like every other order in the ICs moveset.

Pro's and Con's are kind of a limited way of looking at it imo unless it's truly redundant options. While some redundant desyncs exist, most have a form and function to work from that's specific and isn't positive/negative trade based.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Yes, desynchs are more of "attacks" than they are anything else, since they all have pros and cons, some do things similar to others and do things better than others. The more you know, the better off you'll be in the long run. We forget that we have certain moves, just like we forget we have certain desynchs.

YET NO ONE WILL BELIEVE IN THEM AND USE THEM CONSTANTLY, LUXY. Especially since you said you're quitting Icies, its all up to me now.

 

[DeLux]

I'm only dropping ICs locally (ie tournaments that I host). If I travel, I'll still play them. Otherwise I'll be playing Jumanji with ZSS/TL/Wario/GnW/Lucas/Mario. Like I might literally roll a dice before my first game to decide which of the six I'll be going with.

This of course is assuming the MK Ban sticks and we're still forced to play on the crap shoot levels like Brinstar. If it's MK Legal (and a reduced stage list), there will be no mercy.

 

[Hylian]

I'm probably not playing IC's much anymore, and I'm also pretty much quitting the game between school and work full time.

 

[Rykard]

so me coming back is going to help pick up the slack i guess? you guys have no idea how excited i am about getting back into this. I just bought a LAN adapter so i can play on Wifi at school when i have free time. I know wifi is terrible, especially for ICs, but since chaingrabs are pretty much out of the question, it will help work on the other parts of my game.

 

[Roller]

Yes, I'm sure you'll be at Hylian's level in no time. Thank you for picking up all the slack. We need you.



In other news, I'm picking up Frobo's slack.

 

[Hylian]

I can't really see myself quitting smash though, it's been part of my life since I was 13, and I'm 23 lol. Just not going to as active for the next few years unless something sparks my interest and will probably be playing like Ics/Falco/MK/Marth instead of just one character.

Myself and a good amount of other TO's might host a national in the midwest and try to make it bigger than apex through getting a LOT of sponsors and buying all the Tv's and set-ups ourself ect. That won't be for a few years though if at all.

 

[Rykard]

Yes, I'm sure you'll be at Hylian's level in no time. Thank you for picking up all the slack. We need you.

yup. i'm so generous

 

[Sylarius]

For the IC Chaingrab, should I be using the Popo Fthrow --> Nana Bthrow/Popo buffered turnaround regrab combination?

For the last 3 days I've been using the opposite (Nana fthrow) and I have it down somewhat. I can consistently chaingrab Marth to about 50% but the spacing looks wrong. =/

 

[-LzR-]

Below 50% the timing is pretty forgiving anyways. (I think)
And yes that would be the right way to do it. I use the Popo Fthrow --> Nana Bthrow/Popo buffered turnaround regrab and so on.

 

[Roller]

Syl, the way that you are actually doing it. With the nana F-throw is the way most ICs do it. However that is because we spent countless hours mastering it, and don't want to go through all that trouble again (and probably **** up more in tourney as a result) just to avoid the occasional trip.

However, if you are just learning now; then the popo f-throw -> nana b-throw->Popo buffered turnaround regrab is DEFINITELY the one you should learn.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it's not bad to practice both tbh. i find that the tripless one isn't that hard to do on diddy as the standard one is but standard one is also much easier to do on olimar and pikachu consistently. it's all about which one feels best to you brah

 

[Smoom77]

it's not all about what feel best to you. it is a proven fact that P Fthrow>N Bthrow is the best CG at the moment. It may not be the easiest, but it will take you the farthest when perfected. now stop talking like you know what you're talking about

 

[Roller]

At the end of the day, you're going to need to spend a lot of time learning the cg and maintaining your consistency with it. Regardless of which you find easier/harder at first, more practice time will lead to a mean (as in average) consistency regardless of which you choose to practice.

Thus the best option to learn would be the best option to use, which is the popo fthrow->nana bthrow cg.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

true smoom. i don't know a lot about ICs yet.


concedes

 

[Sylarius]

I'm having far more trouble doing the new chaingrab. Any advice?
I can never do the bthrow after the fthrow, and I have not done it once in the last 2 hours of practice.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well there are one of 2 problems. Spacing or timing. If you are too far away/too close the b-throw won't be in the right position to regrab. Or you are just messing up the timing because it is counter-intuitive to the other CGs.

 

[dettadeus]

So I got a couple hours of practice in, and got a couple good CG's out of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcCBiQ2zivg

I still seem to have trouble with randomly dropping the new CG at a Nana regrab. I think it's just me making stupid technical errors and not pushing the control stick far enough, but I've definitely noticed I drop a lot of my CG's in general right before kill percents because I'm getting nervous. Any tips on keeping calm or general B-Throw > U-Smash kill percents I can use?
Also, are there any characters or stages in particular where it's better to do U-Throw > B-Air for a kill as opposed to B-Throw > U-Smash, or is it usually just to show off?