General ICs Q&A Thread

[ch33s3]

I second ESAM's question about fair. Nietono literally spammed fair at me and 3 stocked me. I had no answer.

 

[DeLux]

Olimar's Fair is |-20| + on shield O_O

Olimar's options from neutral position are pretty slow after that


If you guys want to beat Fair, you all need to stop committing to options as soon as Olimar is in the air. Don't try to Uair him. Don't do anything but shield and wait for him to get grabbed.

I mean, it's obviously more complicated (like Nietono would use Yellows to try to hit you guys with Fair so that he would have a blue to IBPG to cover his retreat and you all were baited into running into it) but by in large ICs don't know this matchup

 

[So Fatal]

any advice to start learning chain grabs on olimar?

 

[Smoom77]

There isn't advice for any specific character. Just learn your chain grabs and shut up

 

[Hylian]

any advice to start learning chain grabs on olimar?

1. Turn on brawl.

2. Pick ice climbers.

3. Practice.

 

[Roller]

I've been saying olimar beats the stupid blizzard **** for ages now. Future has been saying it longer. I'm glad people are finally starting to acknowledge the matchup is not so straight forward.



and I agree with Lux on the belay thing. It's my new gimmick I'm utilizing this month.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yo, we all need to start edgeguarding like kakera did against me. **** was CRAY! Kakera desync ledge grab to ledge get up nana bair like wtf....

 

[Rubberbandman]

Yo, we all need to start edgeguarding like kakera did against me. **** was CRAY! Kakera desync ledge grab to ledge get up nana bair like wtf....

Yeah, I'm going be be practicing this myself. Just delay dash dance to get yourself on the edge, and attack with nana.

 

[Hylian]

Yo, we all need to start edgeguarding like kakera did against me. **** was CRAY! Kakera desync ledge grab to ledge get up nana bair like wtf....

I do that but I upsmash usually, I was more impressed when I saw him pivot grab with nana while popo was in his get up animation lol.

 

[Roller]

Yo, we all need to start edgeguarding like kakera did against me. **** was CRAY! Kakera desync ledge grab to ledge get up nana bair like wtf....

This was actually the main thing I had taken away from the set.

 

[DeLux]

I've been saying olimar beats the stupid blizzard **** for ages now. Future has been saying it longer. I'm glad people are finally starting to acknowledge the matchup is not so straight forward.

Roller, I still think Blizzard Wall works for what it's intended to do (kill pikmin while approaching while allowing you to choose when to break the wall and go into a grab setup)

Blizzard Wall actually facilitates Fair for Olimar because SDI > Fair by Olimar is a fairly legitimate tactic. It's not intended to be the grab setup in itself, that's what IB is for. And even then for me, IB isn't there as a grab setup either, but more of a bait to force Olimar to jump because all of his aerial aren't safe on shield. However, Olimars not named Rich Brown and Fino (and possibly others because those are the only one's I've played that I haven't just absolutely molested) are really bad at the matchup and IB will net you the grab at that point

People just see the spray and pray and assume that it's everything. It's a wall, not the end of Olimar.

More importantly, people should be exploiting the fact that grab setups via IB (or Blizzard if the Olimar is bad) allow an IC to safely get close enough to exploit the frame hole that olimars have against rolling and spot dodging . That's why when you see vids of 9B and Kakera vs. Nietono, they don't blizzard wall. They just more or less play chicken with Nietono and try to abuse that frame data exploit in terms of zoning.

 

[Roller]

the frame hole that olimars have against rolling and spot dodging. That's why when you see vids of 9B and Kakera vs. Nietono, they don't blizzard wall. They just more or less play chicken with Nietono and try to abuse that frame data exploit in terms of zoning.

Could you explain this, and how to position yourself to abuse it in a little more detail?

 

[DeLux]

Moves used by Olimar:

-Fsmash-
FAF: Frame 40
Advantage on Block: -7
Advantage on Block: -8
Advantage on Block: -7
Advantage on Block: -11
Advantage on Block: -5

Red, Yellow, Blue, White
Frame 11-48: Hitbubble (Disappears at 33 on flat ground)
Frame 16-22: Knockback growth (RYB only), Damage, Knockback, and Size reduced
Frame 23-48: Size (Yellow only) and Damage reduced

-Dsmash-
Red, Yellow, Blue, White
Frame 10-19: Hitbubble(s)
Frame 15: Knockback Growth (Red only), Damage, Base Knockback reduced

Purple
Frame 10-16: Hitbubble(s)
Frame 14: Damage and Base Knockback reduced

FAF: Frame 38
Advantage on Block: -8
Advantage on Block: -10
Advantage on Block: -9
Advantage on Block: -13
Advantage on Block: -7

-Standing Grab-
Hitbox - Frames 11-25
FAF: Frame 30

-Pivot Grab-
Hitbox - Frame 11-25
FAF: Frame 36

Ice Climbers Options:

Spot Dodge
2-20 / 25 Ice Climbers

Forward Roll
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers


If you don't want to do the math the complicated frame math on why this works: You get frame advantage on ALL of olimar's walling options if you spot dodge. You can get frame advantage on fsmash and pivot grab if you forward roll. IBs can be used to cover you against Charged Smashes if they try to punish spot dodge in that matter. It also grab breaks since Olimar doesn't have grab armor.

This doesn't work if Olimar doesn't commit to an option first, but since Olimar's options are all slower than frame 6 (our grab), by definition to maintain an even footing in walling us, they have to commit to something early. You just bait a wall option on their end, and punish accordingly based on spacing. It also helps that an IB pressuring them leads to grab as well ><

Thus why we beat Olimar on the ground and why they are now evolving towards using Fair. However the answer to Fair is to make them land and not spray and pray

 

[-LzR-]

I shouldn't go much in to the air with IC except for when I juggle them with uair as I can't grab them in air, right?

 

[Hylian]

Lux how do you take spacing in consideration with frame data? Olimar can fair IC's shield and hold back and be out of range of our OOS options, this is a common baiting tool in both melee brawl that frame data won't give an answer to.

 

[DeLux]

If they Fair and retreat, they are in a position that they have to commit to an option because of the frame disadvantage to not get grabbed. It's either going to be spot dodge or pivot grab (usually dependent on what pikmin they have in their line, I guess they can roll too, but Olimar's roll is really bad). This of course assuming their spacing is immaculate on fair and weren't in immediate grab range.

At which point the grounded RPS takes place (which we win every trade with one of two options).

I am 99% sure this is what the Japanese players are looking fr and it's what I'm looking for when I play Olimar. It's why they don't bother with blizzard wall. I like doing things safer by combining it with an IB.

Not to mention I didn't include the level 0 option that every time they fair your shiled you could have IPG'd it >_>

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

this is gonna sound nubby but i can do the non slip grab (but on a classic pro with the stick being ultra sensitive it is sooooo hard to keep up consistency), but i don't know how to do the standard cg >.< how the hell do you do the cg that every IC main does as im sure it's the easiest one

im tired of my grab dropping because my stick is more sensitive that a gc controller.

edit:
oh and im back here because i've decided to use ICs in singles, and pit in doubles. that way i don't have to drop my favorite character (and he is a godly character in doubles) and can still start using a character that is an actual tournament threat and is still fun to play

 

[Sieguest]

this is gonna sound nubby but i can do the non slip grab (but on a classic pro with the stick being ultra sensitive it is sooooo hard to keep up consistency), but i don't know how to do the standard cg >.< how the hell do you do the cg that every IC main does as im sure it's the easiest one

Nah, not nubby, just overly asked. I mean, I could give you stick inputs and button presses, but you probably already know those because they're obvious. There's not really much that can be said about "how to CG" other than practice. Different people use different tools to get it, some use in-game cues (whether visual or audio) others use their own external cues to get it. etc.

To put that all into two words: just practice.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no i seriously don't know what the button inputs are. that's what im asking and that's why it's nubby

 

[DeLux]

Quick full throw on analog backwards to bthrow > 4-22 frame wait depending on character > Grab > Down on control stick to down throw > walk forward with Popo slightly > Grab at appropriate time > hold grab until you see Nana's shield flash and then let go of grab > Repeat

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i thought it involved a pivot grab. and what is full throw? from what i see you're saying back throw>grab with nana>down throw>walk grab with popo>nana slide>into repeat. where does the pivot grab come from that i see esam and vinnie and smoom do?

edit:

oh and delux thank you for getting my controller back to me. i really appreciate it

 

[DeLux]

The game will pivot grab for you automatically if you time it right due to sync mechanics

Full throw on analog means go from neutral all the way to the rim aka the full throw of the analog stick movement range.


No problem on the controller

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

thank you. im gonna be practicing this as well as the non-slip (it is soooo easy to do this one on olimar) as much as i can. soon you will see the rise of a new tx ICs

 

[Rubberbandman]

To put that all into two words: just practice.

This. All you need.

 

[Smoom77]

You will never beat me, Maraharbar

 

[Cygnet]

So I'm having trouble with the fthrow CG spacing on round characters (i.e. MK, Kirby, Jigglypuff), so is it farther away than normal or closer than usual? I can't say for sure myself because I can't even regrab them ;__;

Also almost every desync involves Popo being the one to do a move and leaving Nana free; what are some of the best desyncs that leave Nana performing an action and Popo free? (Because I see a lot of videos of Vinnie IBing with Nana and Popo is free..... and I don't know which desync he's using.)

Thanks!

 

[DeLux]

Vinnie uses 3 Dash Dance Desync primarily, as do most IC mains.

 

[Smoom77]

Or Hylian Desync (but not really trolling cause i use it sometimes)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I mainly use the kakera desync, but I generally don't desync anyway so....yeah.

 

[Hylian]

Or Hylian Desync (but not really trolling cause i use it sometimes)

I was actually practicing this before apex and ended up doing things like: Rid -> popo roll backwards -> nana dash grab lol. Then I forgot about it at apex .

But yeah, a lot of people use the 3 dash desynch just because it's easy and fast and they don't want to worry about messing up desynchs that could lead to losing nana in top level play.

I like using the shieldless kakaera desynch a lot(I forget what it's called).

Edit: Does anyone here know how to pivot grab in opposite directions at the same time out of a dash? I did this consistently in 2010 at my peak but can't for the life of me remember how. Was godlike for covering landings.

 

[DeLux]

I'm stumped off the top of my head lol

probably something like SND > IPG because Nana faces the one direction during SND
that's just theory craft of a guess though, not sure if that's it

 

[Cygnet]

Vinnie uses 3 Dash Dance Desync primarily, as do most IC mains.

Does that mean

x3?

Also, what is the Hylian desync or the Kakera desync? (Sorry for the stupid question, but I couldn't find what they were, just mentions of them.)

Thank you!

 

[DeLux]

No, that's six dashes in the dash dance O_O

Kakera is 2 Dashes

Hylian Desync is:

Reverse initial dash > Input Nana option between frame 11-21 > Frame perfect input an option for Popo (usually dash) on Frame 22

 

[Cygnet]

Oh, I read it as "3 dash dance" instead of "3 dash" dance I guess. Sorry there.

Thank you for all of the help! =]

 

[F A N G]

Wait the Kakera is only

dash one direction > dash the other ?

And what is better between two dash dance and three dash dance?

 

[DeLux]

Define "better"

It's hard to answer that question in terms of better or worse

 

[Hylian]

Kakera is 2 dashes, but he uses the shield drop desynch to Ib, because its more consistent to time than just doing it straight out of two dashes as far as I can tell. Just speculation because I have an easy time doing blizz out of it but hard time doing ib without shield.

 

[DeLux]

Both are easy ><

 

[Rykard]

how come nobody downthrow > fairs anymore at low percents for a regrab?

 

[Hylian]

how come nobody downthrow > fairs anymore at low percents for a regrab?

It can be DI'ed out of.