Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

hm good stuff wobbs

im not so sure its that ic's are 'not very good'

i think youve just kinda found their rhythm

like how falco is ideally played with a lot of aggression, which is why mathos never wins despite how good lasers are. and how u cant really force urself into aggression if ur playing peach samus or marth

i found that playing a little more reserved with ics has worked me wonders in so many matchups. even tho i always thought chu was an aggressive player, he doesnt force it as much as it used to look like for me when i was inexperienced. i always thought i could throw out a random wavesmash and connect cuz chu could, but there are times when to and times when to not

u got this wobbs u da bess

 

[AshuRawRun]

I've just read some of the pages before and your conversation about IC's possibilities to win tournaments, I guess some years ago people wouldn't have thought that a puff or a peach could do better at all tournaments than the standards top tiers...

I know I'm not the best to talk about this but I guess a really good IC (just like Mango or Armada with puff and peach) could win great tournaments.

 

[Nintendude]

Wobbles, Kyu, whoever else is going to APEX, we should have a few 4p FFAs with ICs. Just imagine when none of us will know who's Nana is who's LOL

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I am excited for Good **** German, both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are banned.

Mwahahaha.

All Icys on west coast should come.


....East coast can come too.

 

[DippnDots]

like how falco is ideally played with a lot of aggression, which is why mathos never wins despite how good lasers are. and how u cant really force urself into aggression if ur playing peach samus or marth

mathos don't play no more yo. Hasn't for a very long time. If you want a modern comparison to Mathos look at Lambchops. Frankly Mathos just wasn't good enough as a player to win tournaments. The game was waaaaay different back then, I think his style allowed him to beat some people better than him honestly. No haet on Thomas he's a great guy.

Spaceballs plays a more aggressive samus than what you usually see and I'd say armada is more aggressive than any peach. And if you want to see aggressive marths, look at any pro marth playing someone not on their level.

 

[Nintendude]

Lambchops and Mathos are a terrible comparison. Lambchops is RIDICULOUS with his lasers and really puts you on lock down no matter where you are on the stage. He's also extremely aggressive and technical in a smart way.

 

[choknater]

ok, so what if armada and spaceballs are more aggressive players than your avg peach or samus. it still doesnt change the fact that their natural rhythm is slower than fox falco and falcon because of their built-in speed. im not hating, im just saying that mathos' style was proven to be ineffective lol. no matter how good a campy falco gets i dont think its the ideal way to play him

for some matchups... ganon, dk, marth, sheik

ics have to be really really patient and thats just how it is

 

[Kyu Puff]

I sometimes do better when I play aggressively, although it kinda only works when my opponent is also being aggressive. I've been trying to slow my game down and make smarter reads for a while though...

 

[Wobbles]

Mixing up your pace is a great way to land surprise attacks, you just have to be choosy when you do it. People leave themselves open a lot, both positionally and mentally. The ideal pace wouldn't be one at all; you'd just exploit every opening regardless of how slow or fast you had to play to do it. Bruce Lee style! That is, no style at all

 

[choknater]

true true! depends on momentum of the match i guess hehe, the human element comes into play!

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like having Nana ice block to get people in the air, then nairing/uairing with Popo.

Oh, and relevant to the discussion, I prefer to shield camp if my opponent is really aggressive. If he's defensive, I attack, but only when I get a read.

 

[PB&J]

wobbles- we should team at apex. fox icys

 

[choknater]

for some reason i got really, really good at ic's dittos.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Are you sure?

 

[PEEF!]

IC dittoes might be my worst matchup.

WTF how do I beat bad ICs, because I am the 2nd best IC player in the midwest now but i lose to like every scrub IC.

 

[john!]

^ that's a rather bold assumption my ic's are getting good

 

[MacD]

IC dittoes might be my worst matchup.

WTF how do I beat bad ICs, because I am the 2nd best IC player in the midwest now but i lose to like every scrub IC.

i thought we went over this with you

the reason you are so good is your grab game, your fighting game is crap

in IC dittos, there is no grab game till you get rid of nana, and to get rid of nana you have to fight. even once you get rid of nana, popo is probably at a semi high percent becuase IC's don't have an easy way to get in/gimp nana (at least from what i've played/how i see it in theory, i could be wrong though)

tl/dr learn to fight, stop relying on only grabs

 

[Wobbles]

IC ditto is like... 75% reading the other guy's wavedash or short hop, 20% spacing right, 5% not running into blizzards, and 100% being able to tell what the hell is going on. And yes, that's 200% because THERE'S ****ING TWO OF THEM.

Edgeguarding is easy mode if you have both of them. De-sync Nana into charged up-smash, and get ready to wavedash after Popo if he makes it over or he goes to the edge. If he lands on Nana, he'll die because their charged up-smash is ridiculously strong. If he goes farther in, you grab him. If he goes out, you edgehog. If there's a platform he can go to, you can intercept by b-airing or u-airing.

You can infinite Popo when Nana is split up, because she comes running into your Nana's tilt and gets knocked away. You can grab each other because two grabs cancels out two climbers. You can even grab 1v2 because b-throw has an awesome hitbox on it that will mess Nana up if you grab Popo, and push Popo out if he shields.

Your ground game shouldn't have much WD d-smash unless you know they're going to wavedash into it themselves, otherwise you're just testing if the other guy can WD out of his shield. If he can, too much d-smashing makes the ditto a thing of chance. WD f-tilt is superior as a general approach, as is WD + jab because it lets you set up jab into tilt, smash, grab, or just roll away and reset. SH f-air is pretty good when tippered because it's got solid shield knockback, and getting the other IC above you is always good news. SH b-air would be solid but you rarely get to connect with it while retreating, and advancing with it tends to get you grabbed. D-air gets you d-smashed, N-air usually gets you d-smashed. U-air when they're above, obviously, and try to get Nana to land somewhere dumb so you can **** her up with a few smashes.

Tadaah, IC dittos.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Why would b-air get you grabbed?

Personally in dittos I just approach a lot and see what they do. Avoiding random smashes, grabs, etc. is important, but it's much easier to do that against solo Popo, and you really only need to land a single smash or grab to separate them and win the stock.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just played against Ganon a bunch today. Dsmash sucks against him. Fsmash ftw. Also, words cannot describe how good dash attack and SH nair are ...

 

[PB&J]

uber ice beat chu dat in every icy ditto they played in at ceo

 

[PEEF!]

uber ice beat chu dat in every icy ditto they played in at ceo

Truuuuu story. Chu is poopie at that MU, I almost beat him in tournament.

 

[Wobbles]

Why would b-air get you grabbed?

Personally in dittos I just approach a lot and see what they do. Avoiding random smashes, grabs, etc. is important, but it's much easier to do that against solo Popo, and you really only need to land a single smash or grab to separate them and win the stock.

Because usually the best way to land b-air is by WD'ing in with it. Sometimes you wind up in close quarters where you can SH it *away* while still making contact with the other IC or his shield, and then it's totally okay. I try to avoid it though because both are sliding around so **** much that spacing it correctly becomes really difficult for me.

If you're better at it than me though, by all means do it. It's a terrific move.

 

[DippnDots]

Lambchops and Mathos are a terrible comparison. Lambchops is RIDICULOUS with his lasers and really puts you on lock down no matter where you are on the stage. He's also extremely aggressive and technical in a smart way.

They're play styles are separated by over 2 years / a spike in the "evolution" of the metagame. Mathos wasn't a very aggressive falco like everyone is now, he'd use his lasers to control the match, to keep the momentum neutral or in his favor, and use them as a means to punish predictable approaches / catch you in a stun trap or just push an advantage if there was one. They both used them in a sense of locking the opponent down and controlling space, like all falcos do, I just think they both have a stronger understanding of how to do it than the average falco.

I'd say the real reason mathos played very defensively back then was because it worked in the tournament scene. Now a days it's common practice for people to powershield and generally deal with lasers, naturally chops isn't going to have the same laser game as someone else or as something that worked two years before, but both their styles definitely incorporate lasers more effectively than other falcos do, not to mention their tournament placings kinda correlate, how neither of them win big tournaments on the regular, but they place well and can play against the higher echelon of players. Those points were where I was drawing my comparison.

i've played with mathos _alot_, I know he's notorious for being the campy falco, but from my experience he could also be aggressive. I was still fresh meat back then though :\

ok, so what if armada and spaceballs are more aggressive players than your avg peach or samus. it still doesnt change the fact that their natural rhythm is slower than fox falco and falcon because of their built-in speed. im not hating, im just saying that mathos' style was proven to be ineffective lol. no matter how good a campy falco gets i dont think its the ideal way to play him

I just think it's peculiar that the best peach and arguably one of the best samus' play their characters very aggressively, as opposed to the majority of people who play those characters. i think it shows how it depends on the player and not the character. I agree some characters are designed more for one than the other, but that doesn't mean its impossible to play them differently. You just have to know when you can push the aggression I guess. I think it works cause of their ability to read their opponent or trick them(?)

But I agree that an overall campy falco won't win tournaments and that a play style like that wont work anymore, that is, a play style centered around playing defensively with an offensive character won't work. Sorry to derail the thread, I see where the misconception I had was.

On a side note, I played campy yesterday with my icies against a falcon and I noticed an improvement. I think playing that way helped me calm down too cause I was hardly messing up grab combos / timing desynch trixies

 

[AXE 09]

Sorry to break up the chat guys lol. I just have a quick question.

How does this glitch work/happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFdqUIxSx0Q

 

[choknater]

ok armada is aggressive lol

but the pace of the characters moves is still slow, thats more of what im getting at

like, its aggressive to slowly float toward u and fair. it slows down the game compared to spacie or falcon matches, and some characters do benefit from being defensive. wobbs made me realize that there really is no 'ideal' rhythm, but in an empirical sense there are many ways to just play a match without taking risks

like choknaters anti-puff game toooooo ****

axe: yea, thats like reverse freeze glitch haha. nana can be throwing the opponent, or the opponent can be throwing nana. when the throw happens, popo can side b from anywhere and it'll freeze glitch. done it on accident with falcon bthrowing my nana before, it was funny

 

[Wobbles]

Sorry to break up the chat guys lol. I just have a quick question.

How does this glitch work/happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFdqUIxSx0Q

Popo forward+b's while Nana is throwing at the right time and it freezes the enemy, yeah?

When the enemy grabs Nana, if they use certain throws (no idea which ones because it's kind of hard to test) and Popo forward+b's, it freezes both them *and* Nana. A kind freeze glitch in reverse.

I know for sure it works with Ganon's b-throw and I have no idea what other throws. Apparently one of Fox's.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

It also works on Ganon's up B and Pikachu's Fthrow.

 

[PEEF!]

Ive done it to a fox fthrowing.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Bleh. It's worth it to roll in vs Ganon when you're trapped by the ledge. If you get shield pushed off the stage, Nana will die.

 

[NTA]

yeah i hate that lol xD

 

[Kyu Puff]

I wonder if lightshield -> up+b cancel works...

 

[Wobbles]

Freeze glitch is definitely illegal, so I personally wouldn't dare doing it in tournament hoping that people would go "oh no it's okay it's different than the normal one," even if I broke them out immediately. Maybe it would work once if you said, "I thought you grabbed me so I started mashing, wow how weird I didn't know that let's just keep playing," but you'd never get away with it after that. Plus, if you whiffed and started forward+b'ing right next to Fox he would make you eat ****.

I prefer to play by the rules anyhow, though I might try it in a friendly to see if I can do it You have to be careful, there will still be a hitbox where he punches Nana.

 

[PEEF!]

I'm deff gonna friendly it.

It happens to me often enough to be accidental.

time to edit posts.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Maybe it works on multi-hit throws.

I remember PEEF saying that D-throw and B-throw don't break the freeze glitch but U-throw and F-throw do. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the moves are multi-hit and it acts weirdly on the glitch?

Just a random thought I had.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Funny fact:

I used to be mildly concerned that when recovering with Popo when Nana is on stage, my opponent would grab and throw Nana in an effort to freeze himself and make me forfeit the round. Then I realized that people don't know **** about ICs.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't think any reasonable T.O. would make you forfeit for that, it really doesn't count as freeze glitch. As long as you unfreeze them immediately and don't use it to stall or something, it's just a free hit and it can't end the game or anything.

D-tilt is a decent move. I used to think it was useless, but it's actually valuable in techchases and combos. A common situation: You b-air a fastfaller, but they di away so dash attack won't connect. A couple months ago I would've run after them, and d-smashed if they missed the tech, but if you replace the d-smash with d-tilt you can lead into grab at most relevant percentages.

 

[Lixivium]

I am the 2nd best IC player in the midwest now but i lose to like every scrub IC.

Don't you think that's a little presumptuous, especially if you're losing "to like every scrub IC".

 

[PEEF!]

the word "now" was included to exclude you, since you said you quit.

and I actually havent lost to any scrub IC, but I do not beat them as bad as I should, so i included the word "like" to say that I am not REALLY losing to every scrub IC.

I just wanted a sense of urgency pointed towards some matchup help. But I do see myself as the second best IC in the MW with you excluded.

 

[Lixivium]

the word "now" was included to exclude you, since you said you quit.

and I actually havent lost to any scrub IC, but I do not beat them as bad as I should, so i included the word "like" to say that I am not REALLY losing to every scrub IC.

I just wanted a sense of urgency pointed towards some matchup help. But I do see myself as the second best IC in the MW with you excluded.

LOL I wasn't talking about myself; you could very well be better than me now because I haven't played Smash in weeks, and I haven't played IC's for months.

Then again there really aren't many other Midwest ICs. The only time I've ever played IC dittos in tournament was when I beat Zjinn like 3 SMYM ago.

I'd still say Jace is a better IC than you from what I've seen of you both. What macd said was a little harsh but true. Your non-grab game is subpar and you clearly don't have good knowledge of matchups.

As far as IC dittos go, it's a ridiculous matchup anyway so keep it simple:

1) Jabs are great because IC's can't punish them out of shield
2) Blizzard (regular or desynched) cuts off approaches
3) If anything grab MORE than you normally would because IC's tend to be grounded and also shieldwh0res. This should be right up your alley?
4) Remember Up-air/Up-tilt beats out anything coming in from directly above