Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Kyu Puff]

I played Kels two days ago and it was a mighty mighty pain having to learn how to fight a Fox who is incredibly patient on top of being really good. He camped me more than any other Fox has done before, and he also had experience killing Nana which meant my mistakes were very costly.

That's exactly how I felt playing against jman yesterday, but I was on no sleep and didn't adapt so I just got pooped on. He wouldn't approach at all and whenever I tried to slow the match down or fake approaches I would take a ton of residual laser damage. He was also really good at spacing shine to separate Nana and Popo, so every time he landed it, she was dead.

Speaking of shine, I noticed that when it doesn't separate you a lot of Foxes still try to follow it up and attack Nana, so if you DI away you have time to punish him for it. What do you think would be the best way to punish? Once I managed to dash attack someone out of it; maybe it's possible to grab him?

 

[Wobbles]

Hmm... tough to say, I'm usually not ready to try that since I'm typically pushed off the level. **** thing sends you pretty far -_-.

However, you can probably jab him, tilt him, dash attack sounds risky but the reward would be massive... can you desync a blizzard off the hit-stun? That would be legit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What's the optimal way to punish Foxes who aerial -> shine your shield, then FJ fast fall drills immediately? Of course, going for a shield grab is too risky. At low percents SH uair oos can result in getting a grab, but so can wavedashing oos -> dash attack.

 

[Nintendude]

I fully believe ICs can win a major tournament. You have to go through a lot of bull**** to do it, and part of the problem is you will never get the kind of practice you need because people won't play that way in friendlies against you since it's not happy fun-time for either player. I played Kels two days ago and it was a mighty mighty pain having to learn how to fight a Fox who is incredibly patient on top of being really good. He camped me more than any other Fox has done before, and he also had experience killing Nana which meant my mistakes were very costly. But I had some folks coach me and I adapted.

What kinds of advice did you get from people coaching you? That could be really handy info to know especially if the set was recorded. Then we could get a better look inside what was going wrong initially and how you adapted. Campy Fox is always ridiculously annoying for all of us to play against.

 

[PEEF!]

Wobbles gives the most amazing speeches.

I asked him about Sopo and he just laid out an impromptu sermon on the mount and I loved it.

I want to thank him personally for taking like half an hour to just talk about climbers. Hopefully he tries my Uthrow Usmash and Fthrow usmash tricks.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Uthrow usmash is nothing new.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0b0lXF7fCU#t=0m20s

 

[Kyu Puff]

Hmm... tough to say, I'm usually not ready to try that since I'm typically pushed off the level. **** thing sends you pretty far -_-.

However, you can probably jab him, tilt him, dash attack sounds risky but the reward would be massive... can you desync a blizzard off the hit-stun? That would be legit.

A lot of times it's definitely better to DI in and grab the ledge, but looking at your position and reacting accordingly could be something to improve at. F-tilt sounds like it might be reliable -- I don't think you can have Nana blizzard though because she doesn't DI with you.

I think proper DI is as important for ICs in this match-up as it is for Fox; stuff like SDIing his u-airs and d-airs goes a long way way. I've also been cc teching a lot of moves lately; I think it's a good way to get out of tight situations and to prevent you from being launched into the air.

 

[PEEF!]

Uthrow usmash is nothing new.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0b0lXF7fCU#t=0m20s

Uthrow>actual uthrow hitbox>Usmash hitbox. Adds an extra 11 or 12 damage and they are way high in the air. Of course everyone does the Uthrow>interrupt usmash, but if you can manage to hit the usmash after the uthrow hitbox, you can kill people stupid early.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've also been cc teching a lot of moves lately; I think it's a good way to get out of tight situations and to prevent you from being launched into the air.

Do you have to buffer the tech while you're in another animation for this to work? If so, doesn't that mean your CC will not be a true CC, but rather ASDI?

Uthrow>actual uthrow hitbox>Usmash hitbox. Adds an extra 11 or 12 damage and they are way high in the air. Of course everyone does the Uthrow>interrupt usmash, but if you can manage to hit the usmash after the uthrow hitbox, you can kill people stupid early.

I didn't know that could work. Is the timing very strict?

 

[PB&J]

icys can win majors..armada is not god

 

[PEEF!]

The timing is very strict, but if you can get it to work after a charged Usmash, you can kill ganon off the top at like 65 assuming they DI perfect. O.O

 

[Wobbles]

Nintendude: I was told by Kirkq to avoid going on platforms as much as possible because it gives Fox way too much leeway in pressuring your shield and pushing Nana around. He also told me to keep my cool and just go for safe u-air pokes while Kels was crossing the platforms, and then use the percent advantage to change the camping around. Not playing on Dreamland REALLY REALLY HELPS. You still die at like, 90 to u-smash anyhow, and it lets him camp you from the ground with lasers and he can even the percents.

Zhu told me to avoid using full hop aerials to poke while playing on the smaller levels, because Fox can easily maneuver under you and mess up your day badly. So I was more cautious and choosy about when I jumped and poked, and I played that matchup very defensively afterwards. Most of my games against Kels and Iori this weekend were between 4 and 6 minutes long, I think, because they were focusing on avoidance and I was trying to keep myself from being reckless.

The rest of adapting to Kels' playstyle was getting better at judging when he'd fall through platforms with b-air. After I got a decent percent lead he could not afford to sit and poke from up high and had to play grounded, which I'm WAY more used to and that gave me a big edge on him for the rest of the match.

Chival: WD out of your shield is really good because it lets you re-space and control Fox's landing. SH u-air from your shield is great too, except I personally have trouble remembering to do it and actually executing it when I do. I need to work on it because it's pretty legit, and you will NOT be trading with Fox's d-air like you might with Falco's. In fact, if you do trade for some reason, it works out to your advantage as far as more combos go, and if you're in the air while you get hit you can smash DI away and avoid the landing shine; you can also CC if he jabs when he lands instead, so if you're being aware you can cover most of his options.

You could also try WD'ing under him to get past, then f-tilt de-syncing into a blizzard! I bet it would surprise the hell out of him.

PEEF: I like talking about Smash and get very energetic when I do. Glad you didn't find it annoying.

 

[KirbyKaze]

icys can win majors..armada is not god

I didn't say he was. But he's very good (arguably top 3 in the world without much effort at all) and he's probably waiting for any IC player in the top 4 area of the bracket. And Peach vs IC is easy mode.

As long as one of the best players is a Peach main, I really doubt the ability of an IC to win.

I'm also not sure if IC players atm can beat Hungrybox either, though I'm pretty sure that one isn't caused by the matchup. I'm still waiting on Wobbles vs Hungrybox.

 

[Niko45]

The existence of Armada invalidates their ability to win a national.

A swedish national, maybe.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ice climbers would have to watch out for an international.

 

[PB&J]

funny thing u said that kirbykaze because i taught hbox the icy match up because im extremely good vs puff with icys because i train against soft.

hbox did just beat uber ice and chu dat @ ceo but people just need to get better against puff. icys can do alot of things to her that annoys her.

and peach vs icy's is not easy mode.

@ apex ill play armada with icys and see if its easy mode or not..which i doubt..not saying ill win but i play mike g and xif alot..its not going to be a walk in the park for him..all im saying

when icys win tournies people blame wobbling or chain grabs.

there are 4 characters in this game that the community suck against as a whole

and thats puff,icy's,falco, and peach

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

what about gannon many people don't really know how to deal with gannon.

 

[Smasher89]

PB&J- you´ll want to know that if there is one matchup Armada plays, it´s against ICs. Don´t get faired.

 

[choknater]

armada would get off

pink shinobi back in the day would get off on any ic's lols, cort too

right now theres armada and kage who are just FAT ROADBLOCKS for ics lol, get your counter pick ready

good thing they live in canada and sweden :D

 

[ChivalRuse]

You could also try WD'ing under him to get past, then f-tilt de-syncing into a blizzard! I bet it would surprise the hell out of him.

Reverse ftilt from a wavedash sets up desyncs? I had no idea.

 

[Wobbles]

Chival: Yeah, use the f-tilt guard out of your WD to turn around and start using blizzard.

Choknater: Never got to play Paul, but my last game against Cort ICs v Peach I actually won. This past weekend I spent some time learning the ICs v Ganon matchup against Rock Crock and Iori. Not saying "I GOT THIS GUIZE AHMADA AND KAHGAY GOIN' DOWN" I'm confident in my ability to beat any player on this planet. For real.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I spent some time learning the ICs v Ganon matchup against Rock Crock and Iori.

and what were your findings?

 

[Vts]

and what were your findings?

♪ iori rolls to much thats what lol. ♪

♪ also if you watch the matches notice wobbles likes to face backwards. ♪

♪ overthinking is what i do so what i've come to see about this is ♪

1. backair faster than fair, better horizontal kb than nair and little better range.
2. dsmash comes out 3-4 (9 is first fame hitting on otherside of ic 10th frame is the complete front arc) frames faster than the front hitting.
3. up smash comes out slower but hits lower good for crouching characters.
4. mindgames.

 

[Wobbles]

1) Be patient. Believe it or not, Ganon is actually terrified of you. A whiffed L-cancel means dying, a predicted roll means dying, getting crossed up when you aerial can mean getting grabbed and dying. So even though he can punch your face off without a lot of trouble, he is highly unlikely to get in your grill; this gives you room to learn his patterns and condition him as much as possible.

2) Read his movement. Ganon is heavily reliant on things like wavelands, double jump, and fast-fall fake outs to lure players into his range.

3) Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him. Don't go above him.

4) Don't rely on d-smash. Use f-smash more often, because if he happens to short hop an aerial it gives you a MUCH larger chance of hitting. If he fast-falls while getting hit, it utterly ruins his day.

5) Mix up your wavedash spacing as much as possible. He NEEDS to get complacent and fall into range of your movement and attacks without realizing it. If he looks like he's going to b-air, it's very possible that you can actually slide UNDER him, avoid the move, and grab on landing; however, you cannot allow him to actually perceive this sort of thing is going to happen to him.

6) Make him miss as many aerials as you can. Put him under the illusion that he is failing to hit you and it will make him uneasy and impatient.

7) Do your best not to get caught at the edge of the stage while he's on the ground, because his forward+b ***** your shield and if he pushes you to the edge you are in a terrible, terrible position.

8) He can jump out of the d-throw CG once he hits something like 40-ish? If Ganon DIs in he should be able to double jump out. Maybe I was just screwing it up but this is what happened to me.

9) Edgeguarding Ganon is deceptively difficult for ICs because Nana ruins your normal strategy. I wanted to start trying my up+b cancels right before Ganon can himself up+b, to keep Nana out of range of his grab, but I didn't realize this until the middle of my match vs. Iori and I couldn't exactly stop to experiment.

10) You can gain occasional safe damage on him by using sync'ed forward+b, and the boost to your horizontal momentum is significant enough that it will take him by surprise used sparingly. It's a really weird strategy though and I haven't worked it out much, there are times you can get away with it and times you can't, and I can't really put it into words ATM. I'll think about it more. This is how I opened my set vs. Iori though, so that I could lay claim to some percent and force him to approach first.

*

That's most of the stuff I learned. A lot of it is just pay absolute attention to his movement and don't get suckered in or you will lose Nana from one aerial.

*

Edit: Do any of you fine gentleman know where I can get some images of the Black/White Mage ICs from the Melee texture hacks? They're ultra adorable and I'd like to set them as my avatar.

Double edit because it's too important to forget: RockCrock is ultra legit. Great guy who was willing to sit down and help me learn things about the matchup. Iori's alright but he paused by accident while I was infiniting him and I want to give him **** about it

 

[PB&J]

im not worried about ganon..we have chaddd in ga. plus i play fox but im still going to play armada's peach with icys. peach's fair doesnt scare me much..lol

 

[choknater]

hm wobbles, you got this. ahhh i gotta be manly about ic's like you

i tend to pick falco against ganons







good thing i usually win by a large margin

 

[PEEF!]

The story of tonight:

RockCrock fked me up terribly. Steady 3 stocks.

So I started being more patient/campy.

Then refused to play me all night because he says I'm not a fun person to play against. Like he literally would just not allow a match to be started if it was me vs him. It wasn't playful either, he was just straight up saying he would not play me because of my playstyle.

Stuff like this bothers me.

 

[choknater]

lol thats dum

get at him in tournament i guess

so i guess patient/campy works against ganon?

ice blocks seem really effective

 

[Kyu Puff]

Thanks Wobbles, I think figuring out the other player and making my movement less predictable might be something I need to work on in general. Did you try out blizzard tricks like dd or belay out of shield all?

8) He can jump out of the d-throw CG once he hits something like 40-ish? If Ganon DIs in he should be able to double jump out. Maybe I was just screwing it up but this is what happened to me.

That sounds right to me.

9) Edgeguarding Ganon is deceptively difficult for ICs because Nana ruins your normal strategy. I wanted to start trying my up+b cancels right before Ganon can himself up+b, to keep Nana out of range of his grab, but I didn't realize this until the middle of my match vs. Iori and I couldn't exactly stop to experiment.

We brainstormed some ideas for edgeguarding him in this thread, but that sounds like a really good idea. Some other ideas are:

* have Nana edgehog instead of you, although it can be difficult to time
* wait on the stage and d-smash/edgehog if you think he's going to sweetspot (vulnerable to tech)
* roll to the edge, charge d-smash with Nana and lightshield with Popo (this covers a ton of options including techs but requires some reaction and judgement; maybe it's better to keep it simple)

Edit: Do any of you fine gentleman know where I can get some images of the Black/White Mage ICs from the Melee texture hacks? They're ultra adorable and I'd like to set them as my avatar.

I don't know where you can get an image but I can take a screenshot if you want.

vts: When you're facing backwards people also expect grab less. If you approach with wd backwards f-smash your opponent might begin to shield in anticipation, which is an easy way to land grabs sometimes.

chok: I watched your matches vs Mexican -- good stuff, really close set. I liked how you double jabbed his shield, so when he tried to shieldgrab it sometimes the second one would hit him.

 

[MacD]

peef, i have an idea to help you get better, you know how sometimes falcos go without lazering in friendlies for a while? or like peaches don't dsmash, etc? maybe you consider not grabbing in friendlies for a while

i know you'll get ****ed up, and you'll have to expect to lose lots and maybe get frustrated, but if you really wanna get better, you need to focus on the other 19 moves that IC's have besides grab

obviously in tournies/in reality with IC's you are always going to be looking for a grab, but ALL you ever do is look for the grab and you don't know how to use any other IC's moves (semi exageration but you know what i mean)

remember when we did sheik vs ICs? the reason i had fun with that is because it was a challenge and me trying to work on my sheik a little, but i remember basically only taking damage from chainthrows and jabs

if you go without grabs, it'll help you get the other parts of your game because you'll have to figure out what other moves work and where good times to use them might be (like fsmashing my floating fair approach)

if like andre/fly/wobbles think this is a horrible idea then feel free to call me an idiot lol, but after playing him so much and watching his match vs smeet (sp?) i think it'd be super beneficial to you

all this cause i <3 you peef and cause people used to say they didn't have fun playing me, so i know it sucks

 

[Nintendude]

My issue vs. Ganon is that I lose ground and am unable to make it up without taking risks. Could it just be that I'm getting too close to him when in a neutral position? I tend to let him fair my shield a lot.

What kinds of desynchs are good vs. Ganon? I've had success with doing the belay blizzard desynch after he fairs your shield, and sometimes Ganons run into blizzard if you do a roll back desynch, but other than that it just seems risky. Also, sometimes Ganon can manage to squeeze a fair through the blizzard somehow.

 

[Binx]

If you blizzard to close he can jump over the tip and trade a fair for a single bliz tic.

You just need to know when not to give up ground, they can't safely approach you with fair so you need to try and inch towards them but without having to shield and be pushed backwards or leave yourself open to shield pokes.

If they approach you need to choose either rolling at them (very risky but avoids their jab follow up) or dash dance grab / wavedash grab. I like to slowly push them back with max range blizzards, I have never had a Ganon not retreat when you tap them with the end of a blizzard be it spot dodge desynched or belay blizzard. The give up a LOT of room to not get grabbed, I dont even go for the punish every time sometimes I just run in to get that position, if they jump to get over you then you have short hop uairs to pressure with and that leads into all kinds of good things.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't think playing without grabs is a good idea since the opponent can shield-camp to counter that, which isn't representative of how the ICs' match-ups actually work. I prefer the old "pay attention to what causes you problems, try to come up with your own solutions, and then see what other players do in those problematic situations" approach to improving. If PEEF notices that grabs alone aren't working, he could incorporate other things in those situations where grabs don't work and I think his gameplay would naturally improve from there.

 

[MacD]

true, but in friendlies/at his level, i highly doubt anyone is smart/jerky enough to just shield camp

i mean when falco's don't lazer, that's not how the match up works but it helps the falco improve the rest of his game and not just rely on lazers, that situation just reminds me of peef and how his grab game is good, but the rest of his game is meh

so in this case it's not for him to learn match ups or anything, but learn his character and just become more comfortable with doing attacks

 

[PEEF!]

Its not THAT bad Mccain.

I do rely on grabs because **** im good out of them =P

But I do need to feel more comfortable doing attacks.

 

[choknater]

yeah fly mccains not saying to play without grabs, hes saying for peef to try out other things, which is a really good idea

since people expect grabs, a lot of times i mess people up by approaching with dash attack, or waiting till people jump then just uairing them. lately i see 4 really legit options coming from a neutral position

in order of usual effectiveness, depending on matchup...

1 defensively using blizzards and blocks to force approaches. since nana is usually safe and popo is desynched, he can change to an approach out of nowhere

2 dash attack

3 wavedash (grab, smash, jab)

4 bait jump and uair

people jump a lot cuz it's ics

i used to really try to force grabs, and its a really good thing to do especially in spacies or falcon matchup where they will simply die

but in other matchups there are so many ways to play ics. especially in matchups where you can hardly even grab people, like PUFF, marth, peach

flys trial and error way of figuring things out works too, but if you like to play with a lot of instinct like me, i think trying out a lot of new things in friendlies really accelerates learning, and gives one a good feel for momentum which translates well in tournament

i just realized in my set with mexican i went

4-2 with ics
0-1 with peach on brinstar (i fail)
3-3 with falco, with one match decided by SD

LOL i actually won more games but lost the sets

i got this next time lol, if there ever is a next time

 

[Wobbles]

I prefer to just spam one technique over and over while I'm practicing then I learn where it works and where it doesn't. I also get to see what my opponent does to counter it, and then I know what I *shouldn't* do if I think they're going to do whatever. Right now I'm practicing using excessive amounts of b-air. I'm almost considering replacing about 50% of my d-smashes with short hopped auto-cancelled b-air since it's so **** good

 

[PEEF!]

Wobbles, you come up with revolutionary ideas that sound crazy but sound so good at the same time.

Although the back-facing Falcon thing hasn't exactly been working too well for me. I can't exactly say why. I will record some vids. But IMO that matchup is pretty easy. I was doing very well against RC's Falcon.

 

[Lixivium]

People john about wobbling so hard that I just can basically not do it anymore. I feel terrible, and people hate me.

LOL if you want to use wobbling as a means of winning matches you would otherwise not win then that's the price you have to pay. I'd say ignore the trashtalking and keep playing your game but you probably care too much about other people's opinions.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

The story of tonight:

RockCrock fked me up terribly. Steady 3 stocks.

So I started being more patient/campy.

Then refused to play me all night because he says I'm not a fun person to play against. Like he literally would just not allow a match to be started if it was me vs him. It wasn't playful either, he was just straight up saying he would not play me because of my playstyle.

Stuff like this bothers me.

I wouldn't want to play against a Fox who just laser camps against say Ganon on DL / DK64 all day. Same concept.

Its not THAT bad Mccain.

I do rely on grabs because **** im good out of them =P

But I do need to feel more comfortable doing attacks.

As opposed to **** good, it really did feel like that was the only thing you did when I played you. I do agree with Mccain. We talked about that whole issue, but yeah, try different things, maybe grab less. Or just do a throw / smash out of grabs and tech chase or something. I don't think people would have any problem with that. You'll probably get better at tech chasing / fighting too.

I prefer to just spam one technique over and over while I'm practicing then I learn where it works and where it doesn't. I also get to see what my opponent does to counter it, and then I know what I *shouldn't* do if I think they're going to do whatever. Right now I'm practicing using excessive amounts of b-air. I'm almost considering replacing about 50% of my d-smashes with short hopped auto-cancelled b-air since it's so **** good

100% agree. That's how I internalized a lot of things in my game!

LOL if you want to use wobbling as a means of winning matches you would otherwise not win then that's the price you have to pay. I'd say ignore the trashtalking and keep playing your game but you probably care too much about other people's opinions.

What's wrong with caring about others' opinions? I don't think a win would mean anything to me if my opponent didn't acknowledge it. That's why I'm so adamant about being the aggressor all the time even if it costs me in the shortrun.