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Social General Ice Climber Chat

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
falcon is mad easy unless its jeff, u just have to not get demoralized

wobbs u got this


zhuuuu but its just ice climbers =\ theyre slowwww. i think its fun to try to get through defenses with an offensive character. if they are spamming blocks and blizzards, ganon is gonna feel good if he penetrates and taps
 

Lixivium

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
2,689
What's wrong with caring about others' opinions? I don't think a win would mean anything to me if my opponent didn't acknowledge it.
Well that's the point. If you intend to use wobbling as a legitimate part of your game then you can't be bothered by people b!tching about it. I acknowledge that for the purpose of winning tournament matches, wobbling (if not banned) is as valid as any other tactic (ie Mathos or Pink Shinobi-style camping), but it is just as valid for someone to give you tons of flak and grief about using it.
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
falcon is mad easy unless its jeff, u just have to not get demoralized

wobbs u got this


zhuuuu but its just ice climbers =\ theyre slowwww. i think its fun to try to get through defenses with an offensive character. if they are spamming blocks and blizzards, ganon is gonna feel good if he penetrates and taps
... ICs are definitely not slow LOL.

But it's not that fun chasing / trying to outsmart someone who kind of just runs / waits for a single mistake and just punishes it with a relatively easy / guaranteed 0-death. It's kind of why I intentionally avoid playing against certain characters / players unless I need to prepare for a tournament or something like that.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
What's wrong with caring about others' opinions? I don't think a win would mean anything to me if my opponent didn't acknowledge it. That's why I'm so adamant about being the aggressor all the time even if it costs me in the shortrun.
!!!

The beauty of most games is that the 'victor' is decided by the game or the rules and NOT by popular opinion!

don't let anyone else poop on your parade! if you play to please other people, so be it, but most people play to please themselves... if 'PEEF' happens to enjoy wobbling 3 stocks every match, then so be it
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
Winning with as few moves possible is a VERY smart way to play, due to the fact that everytime it hits (when the opponent will think they sees it coming) it should make the opponent think that they made a mistake, which might lead to a bit uncertainity and doubts which ultimatly makes the opponent make mistakes and place catious (spelling?)

Drephen and Hungrybox is from what I´ve heard very good at this (not seen too many matches of them , but I keep hearing that they "spam" the same moves lol)


ICs offensive pressure feels too good sometimes, fair to desynched popoftilt>nanagrab probably beats every defensive option there is XD


If theres any matchup I like, it´s to play against a running away fox on corneria, ICs are way more effective that when they get a hit it´s gonna hurt badly for the fox, who has to rely on the plane to "cirklecamp" them, sooooo bad it gets banned often nowadays, usually uses the stage to get people choose fox and regret it :/
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
!!!

The beauty of most games is that the 'victor' is decided by the game or the rules and NOT by popular opinion!

don't let anyone else poop on your parade! if you play to please other people, so be it, but most people play to please themselves... if 'PEEF' happens to enjoy wobbling 3 stocks every match, then so be it
I really doubt most people play more to please themselves. I guess what I said applied more to Peef though. I asked him why he played and he said something along the lines of inspiring others / eventually being the person people cheer / look up to. A goal like that kind of depends on pleasing other people because it's their respect he's trying to earn. He's disappointed that people like RockCrock don't like playing him and I can totally see why. His style is great if his focus is winning / efficiency, but for him, it'll never be satisfying unless other people acknowledges him.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Yes.

It goes grab, wait until her grab is almost done, then start pressing A at the right speed. The first press however needs to be without ANY control stick imput forward or else she will dash attack. You have to creep the stick slightly forward imbetween the first and second hits. If you didn't move the stick forward in time, nana will double jab, but if you keep the proper 200BPM rhythm anyway, she will catch up and wobbling will work after she double jabs.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Well, she does something else not good that way. Probably just makes the overall timing wrong and they will break out. Just do it the way I outlined and there will be no problems.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Kyu Puff: Yeah, a screen cap of the white mage Nana would be really awesome if you could get one for me :)

On the whole playstyle/pleasing others thing... well, most people should know where I stand! I play in the (completely legal!) style that I think is most likely to lead to my victory, and I have no problem when my opponent plays with that mentality even if it's boring or frustrating to fight. I do not play to entertain other people unless I'm doing something like recording combo footage or just goofing off in friendlies. I'm also totally ready to accept it when people tell me I'm boring and lame or whatever, because I believe that there is a singular factor determining whether you are good, and that's whether or not you win. When people were busy talking crap about HBox, all I could think was, "the kid is winning. Obviously he's good. If a terrible player can take consistent 2nd and 1st at massive tournaments with stupid and easy strats, then that means this game is just not that good, and I don't believe that."

Having said that, I also force myself to be as good as possible without CGs and infinites because popular consensus is that ICs grabs are their entire game and thus should be avoided at all costs. I rarely get grabs against good players, so I believe that if I am to be successful, I should NOT spend my valuable practice time on the CGs and combos that I've already got down. This is, I think, a huge part of how I'm still able to actually beat people who are efficient at destroying Nana, and it's also why people don't find me as boring as they used to :) It does suck having most of the people in the crowd root against you a majority of the time though. In AZ it's almost always personal if somebody cheers for me specifically against someone else, and out of state I tend to have like, 1/10th if not less of the crowd on my side. POE3 I had Zhu, Bluezaft, JesusFreak, VTS, and I guess maybe MacD? supporting me. Everybody else wanted Kels and Iori to eat my babies. But at the same time, I got a lot of props for winning, so...?

Long post short, my attitude is follow your values. I don't play on behalf of anybody but myself and so I play in the way that will earn ME a victory. If I were to go to APEX 2010 and grand finals was me vs. Armada or something ridiculous, I would not give a single **** about it being USA vs Europe or whatever. It's about ME proving MY skill to MYself. Anybody who feels let down or disappointed if I win or lose or play a certain way or don't play a certain way is welcome to it, because I don't much care. But if somebody can tell me where my game is lacking and needs improvement, I am absolutely all ears, because that's what I care about.

But I do indeed love those flashy and aggressive styles; they are ultra fun to watch and it's great to see them win. I think that a solid aggressive game is better than a defensive one provided your character has the tools for it. ICs have to be defensive a lot, which is the only reason I don't try rushing people down all the time; if I could, I would love to, and it would probably be more interesting to watch.

Also, Zhu is too good!
 

MacD

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
6,891
Location
probably on a platform
i was definantely rooting for you against everyone you played except zhu, then i kinda didn't wanna root for one of you over the other for obvious reasons

and i hope we see you at apex, there needs to be another good ICs there besides chu if he even goes
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I was cheering for Wobbles, maybe that was assumed. I wanted Zhu to make it closer though.

Wobbles you haven't been to one of these international tournaments in awhile, I think it's time.
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
I was cheering for Wobbles, maybe that was assumed. I wanted Zhu to make it closer though.

Wobbles you haven't been to one of these international tournaments in awhile, I think it's time.
I seem to only take matches on Yoshis, I think it's about time I figure out how to do it on another stage LOL.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
PEEF: Good to know ****** loyalty outweighed the regional one :) I just kind of assumed you were rooting for the midwest. I'm also looking at APEX tickets and registration as we speak... and practicing my *** off in the event I decide to go. I'll happily agree that I'm capable of competing at a top 10 level even accounting for Falconry and Peachosity and Jigglitude, but the real problem is how much I'm at the mercy of my own moods and whims. If it's not my day, it's not my day, and I'll be terrifically struggling with people who can't place themselves higher than 64th. So at a three day event, my odds of playing well each day are pretty low, so I have to put in a LOT of work if I want to increase my baseline skill level.

MacD: Thanks a lot for the support sir. I like having people in the crowd on my side sometimes, it's a nice feeling. Even if it is a Peach! <3

Zhu: I honestly expected you to beat me pretty badly on Battlefield, so it's weird to me that the stage you won on was Yoshi's, since it and FoD are my two favorite/best levels. I actually do most of my training on Pokemon Stadium though, so I'm usually ready to play it against spacies even though I probably wouldn't pick it of my own volition--lack of a middle platform is good though, especially since ICs can keep up with Fox and Falco's horizontal speed even if it's just for a moment with the right wavedash. Dreamland and Battlefield get struck because it's a bit tougher to poke through platforms and a lot easier for them to run vertically *and* horizontally. And FD... never gets played :( But I'm terrible at it now because I never get practice on it. If more people knew that I'd probably be getting counterpicked there and destroyed. I've become very reliant on platforms to win my games for me.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
macd: nintendude and kyu puff are going son

wobbles:

white mage and black mage:





this might not work because it's not square:



this is also a cool texture:



ICs going to APEX: We should have an IC meet-up and find out who's the best at the ditto. :D
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
I'm down for an IC meetup. I really just wanna meet all you guys finally. This could be the first national scale tournament where ICs make more of a splash than just Chu getting really far.

My goal at Apex is to make it to the bracket, though I know I'm capable of getting way farther than that provided I play at the top of my game. Do you guys have any tips for consistency? That's really what's getting in my way of me being a major force at tournaments. I very rarely just flat-out lose and get outplayed - it's always just me screwing up on my opportunities and not being 100% successful with my grabs. Could it just be that I need to sit down and practice more? I pretty much never play this game outside of tournaments and when friends want to play.

Also, me and Swift are gonna wreck in teams. Our mission is top-8:)
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
I'm down for an IC meetup. I really just wanna meet all you guys finally. This could be the first national scale tournament where ICs make more of a splash than just Chu getting really far.
That'd be really cool, to get to meet everyone here in person.

My goal at Apex is to make it to the bracket, though I know I'm capable of getting way farther than that provided I play at the top of my game. Do you guys have any tips for consistency? That's really what's getting in my way of me being a major force at tournaments. I very rarely just flat-out lose and get outplayed - it's always just me screwing up on my opportunities and not being 100% successful with my grabs. Could it just be that I need to sit down and practice more? I pretty much never play this game outside of tournaments and when friends want to play.
It's really important to learn everything the right way first before you start practicing a ton. I see a lot of people messing up ICs' dthrow dair because they don't realize that the dair has to connect when the victim is as close to the ground as possible. Some people also have trouble with the fact that the dthrow animation varies based on the weight of the character you're throwing. They don't adjust well to those differences, and that causes them to mess up.

Another thing is to experiment with a lot of ICs tricks on your own. It's so crucial to know the exact consequence of everything that you do, precisely where your opponent will end up, and in what state, when you utilize X, Y, or Z. Knowing how to do dthrow reverse dair on, say, Peach, for example, if you want to turn around while keeping her grabbed. Even specifics like what percents a certain chain grab works till and from (dthrow and dthrow fsmash chain grabs) are really helpful.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I think I play my best when I'm not worried about the outcome of a set. I'm guessing this is because any time spent worrying about the outcome is time not spent paying attention to something happening in-game. Being able to think efficiently in general helps a ton.

edit: In retrospect, that's not very relevant to your problems, but I felt like it was worth throwing out there.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Nintendude: Are you me?

I am attempting to solve that very same problem myself; if I come up with anything useful, I'll let you know :)
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
I think I play my best when I'm not worried about the outcome of a set. I'm guessing this is because any time spent worrying about the outcome is time not spent paying attention to something happening in-game. Being able to think efficiently in general helps a ton.

edit: In retrospect, that's not very relevant to your problems, but I felt like it was worth throwing out there.
I actually do suffer from not being focused enough, but I've been getting a lot better about that lately by doing exactly what you just said.

Consistency is pretty much the barrier between pros and semi-pros. I know Hax complains about it a lot. When he's on point he can beat pretty much anyone, but when he plays badly he loses to people worse than him (and then I get stuck playing him early in the losers bracket :dizzy:).

A big reason why m2k is so good is because he is nearly 100% consistent. He just doesn't make mistakes. He often says that he switched to Marth because his Marth was more consistent than his Fox. I'm sure you guys know all of this already though. I'm just kind of talking to myself lol
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Aww im the only one that isnt going to Apex...

I will have just started school

I do plan to make ROM3 though.

I want Fly and Wobbles to for sure go to Apex and place like gods.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I am very very firm in my desire to attend APEX and to do amazingly. I am training like a beast.

Recently I feel like another puzzle piece of playing the ICs has fallen into place for me. Hopefully I'm not being delusional :)
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
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Oct 9, 2006
Messages
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Gilbert, AZ
I can, if you want me to go both barrels and write a long post describing in as much detail as possible my thoughts on the matter.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Alright, here it is:

I came to a conclusion not too long ago regarding the ICs. It's a conclusion that, I feel, has improved my play radically and done a lot for my outlook on the game.

They're not a good character.

What do I mean by this? Not that they can't win. Not that they aren't scary to fight against. Not that, in the right hands, they can't devastate almost every player and character in the game.

The thing is, they do not fall into any particular role very well. They lack range. They lack solid pressure. If you take away the fact that they hit like a monster truck and you remove those vicious, vicious grabs, you're essentially left with Sopo. Somebody--don't know who--described them as a low-tier character with top-tier gimmicks. This is pretty darn accurate. You are a monster when you get your opening. As far as creating and finding those openings without losing the part of you that actually gives you punishment... no, not so much.

I've spent a LOT of time trying to figure out the elements of gameplay, breaking them down and discerning where I need to improve, what skills I can master that will give me the edge on others. What is it that the best players have that I don't?

Top-players have tech-skill. Not necessarily the fastest, but they make almost no errors and give nothing away, and they can take advantage of a majority of situations because they've got the technical means.

Top players have mindgames. They read you, they trick you. They have a good idea what option you want to pick next, and they're good at hiding their intentions and getting you to play into their hands.

Top players space well. They don't whiff moves constantly, they don't trade very often. If they *can* beat you out with a move in a given situation, they usually do because they time it right.

There are other skills, like DI'ing well and picking solid punishes. I've got those too. So what am I missing? My spacing is alright, my mental area is where I excel the most, and I make up for the tech-skill with a few solid abilities and by using fairly easy punishes that wreak havoc. When I'm playing well, all these consolidate and I do great. But something isn't there.

Well, this is where my first realization comes into play. I realized that the ICs are not that good as a character, and I've been trying to play them like they are. So when this came to mind I realized that I need to be a lot more conservative when I play than before. I need to pick my battles.

I noticed this while fighting DoH's Peach. There were times where I came in at an angle that gave me an absolute priority advantage and I'd nail him with an f-air and follow up with u-air. Sync'ed, that's a pretty solid combo for the IC's--around 40 percent--and leaves me at no disadvantage to speak of. It also pops Peach up, giving me more room to poke with u-air, or trap her on a platform with b-air. Maybe I can force her to the edge where the likelihood of me landing a smash or grab is greater since she doesn't have the room to get a higher float going.

This is great. But you know, those f-airs don't come along very often. She has to be at the right height and not about to slap the crap out of me while I'm starting up the f-air. I cannot just try and spam this f-air praying that this time will come so I can get a big positional advantage and try to convert it to MORE percent and stock. I have to resist the urge to hope it will work out and move around, jockey for position, make sure that if I'm going to throw out that f-air that there's a high probability it will work.

I played Zhu's Falco this past weekend, and I spent a lot of time wavedashing out of shield away from him. I wanted to constantly reset spacing so I'd be out of range of his attacks and regain neutral positions. I would jump up to platforms only to waveland down again, just to get him into places where he didn't have free shield pressure. I spent half of the matches not doing any attacks at all, just bringing up my shield, moving around, jumping, falling down, and waiting. Then I'd pop out at a time I strongly believed I'd be able to catch him with a move and turn it into an advantage. I won two sets in a row, 3-1 both times.

Before I played Zhu, I fought Kels twice, once in Winner's where he beat me. I was throwing out u-airs left and right to try and stop his Fox's platform camping, and he'd nick me with b-airs and chip away with shines, dropping Nana and then he'd actually really fight me. He was playing that match well, and I lost the first set 0-2 because I just chased, mindlessly. The next time we played, I used far fewer u-airs and hit with more. I secured leads that forced him to stop camping and start approaching low, where I had a better shot of reading and intercepting his approach, or launching surprise attacks. I beat him 3-1 as well. Mostly, it was because I stopped trying to hit him so **** much.

It kind of started from a post that Fly_Amanita made; I said that Chu was too inefficient, but he pointed out that Chu rarely throws at moves that don't actually work. His grab game has degenerated because he hasn't kept up, but his solid decision making on attacking and his ability to read people has not. He still lands the most basic wave-smashes and aerials on the most amazing of players, because he doesn't force things. He doesn't just toss them out, or get up in people's faces hoping that they'll just screw up. He'll bide his time until he's got a confident read or position advantage, then go for a decent punish. He doesn't chase as much, but the end result is situations rarely turn around on him.

All this kind of came into my head at once. I tried playing a bit more slowly and a bit more reserved; I want the opponent to think I'm not at an advantage most of the time, so that I can suddenly blast in with a wavedash into a smash, or jab-grab, or cross half the level in the blink of an eye with WD into b-air because I know that it will be to my advantage to do so. I stopped hoping that things will magically work for me, and now things seem to work more often. I pick my battles, I'm more choosy, I reset situations into neutrality as often as I need to before I make my move. It seems to work out.

I hope I can keep this idea in my head through APEX and see how far it takes me. If this isn't just a bunch of smoke I'm blowing, then it's a big step forward in my game.
 
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