Social General Ice Climber Chat

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I do it unless they SDI far out or straight up(platform) I would thiink it should work within reason.

 

[choknater]

haha its all good, we know he "would" be better but ofc he doesnt feel like learning those things

i learned the handoff cuz i was bored and it wasnt much diff from brawl cg's, which made it easier

i managed fine without using handoff, i apply my own desynchs and i still cant wobble. i know we can comment on chu's lack of punishment all we want (he does need to realize that ppl kno how to escape everything and there are ways to mess with people's di by using other easy options)

but honestly

i think instead we should all be paying attention to his great spacing and moves to make ourselves better

i for example i think shiz should slow down and be less aggressive sometimes and choose simpler options especially when edgeguarding. i think zhu is very methodical but should also simplify his game. i think pp is too conservative and chooses to reset spacing rather than take risks, i think it comes from playing people who will 0-death him so much.

of course, they COULD be better and i could nitpick on those things all day but they are still godlike players and better than me. and even though they make noticeable mistakes, i can still learn a lot from watching them

mango's falco is perfect as it is hehe, including all the stupid stuff he does

calle's is too good

 

[Kyu Puff]

What do people think of D-throw Uair regrab at low percent on FFers instead of D-throw Dair? Is it escapable? If you could do it from 0-30 or something and it was immune to SDI nonsense it would be good for making sure grabs at 0 get at least 50%.

You have to jump slightly forward with the Uair.

You can f-smash regrab Fox at around the same percentages (f-smash will reach DI away at 30% and get you to ~50). I wish we had some reference numbers for the d-throw cg, but I think it works after 50% on Fox, which would make a nice inescapable 0 to death.

D-throw u-air might be useful against Falco. You can d-throw cg him from 0, but it's difficult to react to.


I could only get the d-throw cg on Fox to work from 30 something to 70 something. So it would probably take one iteration of either d-throw d-air or d-throw f-smash regrab to kill him. I'm not sure if anyone would be able to pull off the d-throw cg consistently though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-throw SoPo CG on Falco/Fox is unrealistic. You won't get it consistently. The timing and reaction requirement is impossible for a human.

I think we should be focusing on knockdowns, juggles that can be followed, and figuring out how our launchers work in conjunction with grabs and one another, rather than looking at super difficult, impractical options like D-throw CG vs Falco. Even janky stuff like the Ice Block hammer hitbox might be useful.

The most important thing is making sure the grab can rack a ton of damage ("More than 60 in one go = a ton of damage" is my rule with Sheik but idk how it would change with IC since you guys combo differently), or do good damage and setup an edgeguard attempt (usually with Sheik I want 50 from a combo/tech chase before I start going for edgeguard unless they force themselves into the edgeguard by teching near the edge -- this is probably different for you guys since you combo differently and near the edge you just Hand off for 100% and F-smash them for KO when they're at 178% or so).

 

[Nintendude]

A common situation that arises is you down-smash Fox's up-B, he tech jumps, and then does either forward-B or up-B at a little above the stage height. What's the best thing to do from this position? It always seems like a big guessing game, because forward-B is hard to react to, the up-B sweetspot is hard to counter, and if he's too high you can't d-smash him if he tries to up-B straight into you. Getting more consistent at killing Fox (and Falco) after he edgetechs is really important imo.

 

[Smasher89]

I dont thing dsmash is the best option there, sure it will hit, but if the fox/falco is fast enough he will get onto stage before you can dsmash again (atleast Armada does it).

Jumping toward with nair could work, even though you´ll get into a worse position afterwards, if we dont figure a way to use that position as well. Dair can be possible to quickly edgeguard to lcancel, dairedgeguard repeat, not sure if fox will get higher up or not.


Something I havent tried but sounds it can work is if you dsmash with your back against the ledge, then neutral blizzard, so nana will hit behind you, using a mindgame that maybe can make the fox screw up...

 

[Kyu Puff]

A common situation that arises is you down-smash Fox's up-B, he tech jumps, and then does either forward-B or up-B at a little above the stage height. What's the best thing to do from this position? It always seems like a big guessing game, because forward-B is hard to react to, the up-B sweetspot is hard to counter, and if he's too high you can't d-smash him if he tries to up-B straight into you. Getting more consistent at killing Fox (and Falco) after he edgetechs is really important imo.

If he up-b's, you can wd ff to the ledge to cover sweetspot. If he up+b's straight onto the stage, you might have time to cover it with u-air -> b-air or wd onto the stage, I'm not really sure off the top of my head. F-smash can sometimes hit a Fox trying to sweetspot from above, but I doubt the angle is high enough in this case.

If he side-b's, I think the best thing you can do is react and shield. If he side+b's through your shield you can wd toward him and grab/smash. Something Chu has been doing recently is wd off the stage -> b-air to hit Fox out of side+b, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be fast or reliable enough from this position.

I don't think there's any way to cover edge tech -> side-b sweetspot, besides something like having Nana edgehog, which is often too slow against a recovering Fox or Falco. Instead maybe watch for the angle of their up+b, and if it looks like they'll go above the stage you could delay/play with the timinng of d-smash to make it harder to tech at all.

Edit -- KK, I was going to suggest dash attack, but then I realized that I was using the strong early part of u-air and not the weak later part. It seems pretty good, I'll try testing SDI with someone today or tomorrow.

 

[ChivalRuse]

When a spacy is put in a situation where he is recovering, and his double jump can get him above level with the stage, I wait to see if he side-b's, meanwhile placing myself somewhere between where he *would* land from the side-b and the ledge, so that I'm still close enough to shield, wd out, and grab, like Kyu mentioned, but not too far from the ledge if they opt to up-b. Once they commit to up-b, I like to wavedash to the brink of the stage with fsmash. This usually covers both the sweetspot and the straight-at-you options. If he goes high, you should have enough time to at least pressure him with uairs if he lands on a platform.

 

[Binx]

if you hit with the back of your dmsmash and you wavedash edgehog as soon as possible I believe you can edgehog before their sideb has a hitbox sometimes. I'm not 100% sure but I fell like I've done this before.

 

[Smasher89]

if you hit with the back of your dmsmash and you wavedash edgehog as soon as possible I believe you can edgehog before their sideb has a hitbox sometimes. I'm not 100% sure but I fell like I've done this before.

Which leads to a situation where dair, bair or uair is guarantied I guess?

 

[Kyu Puff]

if you hit with the back of your dmsmash and you wavedash edgehog as soon as possible I believe you can edgehog before their sideb has a hitbox sometimes. I'm not 100% sure but I fell like I've done this before.

I don't think so, I'm talking about when they tech and immediately side+b to the ledge. Wall techs are IASA frame 6, and have 14 frames of invincibility. The side+b grabs the ledge (like in the side+b ledge stall), probably in a few frames, so you're d-smash wouldn't even be over yet.

I tried the d-throw u-air yesterday -- not extensively, but I think I found a potential issue with it. It seemed like if they DI in, dash grab will miss, while if they DI away, you have to dash grab immediately. I think it would take the same kind of reaction as the normal d-throw cg, but maybe I'm wrong and didn't test it thoroughly enough.

An idea I had: charge an f-smash with Nana as you d-throw Falco, dash forward and release the f-smash before you try to grab. Dash grab covers everything but DI in, which the f-smash should hit. I don't know if there's any better, guaranteed combo, or if we just need to rely on mix-ups and tricking his DI (or looking at the other player's controller) to get the regrab.

 

[smakis]

Been thinking about messing around with buffering other stuff than ice block and blizzard, like spotdodge > nana jab + popo spotdodge. If the jab hits you can mess them up with popo, if they shield it no biggie, if they hit nana you can possibly grab/do other stuff while they are in lag.

Also uthrow + reverse fsmash > dashgrab should work on lower % on spacies/falcon, excellent for turning around close to the ledge for a handoff.

 

[Binx]

Kyu yeah your prolly right I was thinking about a different distance than your talking about.

As far as your fsmash grab idea, you could try dsmash instead also and see if you get better coverage or trajectory.

 

[ChivalRuse]

An idea I had: charge an f-smash with Nana as you d-throw Falco, dash forward and release the f-smash before you try to grab. Dash grab covers everything but DI in, which the f-smash should hit. I don't know if there's any better, guaranteed combo, or if we just need to rely on mix-ups and tricking his DI (or looking at the other player's controller) to get the regrab.

It works on Fox too. For the fsmash chain grab, I often run forward just enough to get the regrab if they DI out of fsmash's range, but not too far for the chain grab not to work if fsmash hits. Granted, if they don't DI at all, only the fsmash will connect, but at low percents, I find it better to go for this, since spacies usually input some mix of down and away DI.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Congrats to Wobbles!

I'm envious of your success.

 

[Nintendude]

Wobbles won a tournament?

 

[PB&J]

I talked to chu at CEO a couple weeks ago and grilled him about learning good stuff.

When I asked him why he didn't hand-off he said that it was too hard and laughed. But his mentality is probably "who is this yung bad IC player telling me how to play ICs. I invented this character, and I still place better than everyone else"

But he could be so much better even if he had MY new school grab ability. That's all I have. Its sad to see he is probably the most natural at just spacing and being good, but he is too old school to want to learn the new stuff. =[

I did refer him to the IC boards, and I said that there are vast resources for learning the handoff including Wobbles basic info thread, and my detailed frame data and Metronome practice thread. I think that should be enough for him, and anyone else who cares to learn it. Just think how awesome it would be.

everytime i see chu dat i show him something new with icys..i guess he just has to know u first or something because he is willing to learn new stuff i think

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Wobbles won a tournament?

Yeah, POE 3. Here are a few of the results I recall:

1: Wobbles
2: Zhu
3: Iori
4: Kels
5: Cosmo
7: MacD
9. Spaceballs

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wow trail didn't make top 10, was he there I heard some people call his name a lot but I never saw him. I think I wierded wobbles out when I saw him.

 

[choknater]

ice climbersssss!!!!

who does iori use in tourny?

 

[Nintendude]

Wow, good **** Wobbles. ICs on the rise again!

Out of curiosity, where do you guys think ICs should be on the tier list? They currently "officially" stand at the bottom of high tier. Peach, Falcon, and Jiggly are above them (in addition to the top tier of course) and Samus, Doc, and Ganon are just below them.

 

[PEEF!]

POE3 was great.

The only somewhat notable people I beat were IllboyZeus, and KrazyKnux. I almost beat Smeesh, but I have a real problem sealing the deal against people that I think are better than me. I just thought he was better than me so I just choked on purpose, it is weird. Anyway that was last stock last match.

People john about wobbling so hard that I just can basically not do it anymore. I feel terrible, and people hate me.

 

[DippnDots]

you'll still lose to me Peef

 

[Smasher89]

People john about wobbling so hard that I just can basically not do it anymore. I feel terrible, and people hate me.

Shouldn´t that motivate you even more?
Atleast if you play to win...

 

[ChivalRuse]

who does iori use in tourny?

Ganon and Sheik, apart from Mewtwo.

Out of curiosity, where do you guys think ICs should be on the tier list? They currently "officially" stand at the bottom of high tier. Peach, Falcon, and Jiggly are above them (in addition to the top tier of course) and Samus, Doc, and Ganon are just below them.

I think the official list is pretty accurate. Any appearance of merit to climb higher on the list (due to having auspicious matchups vs Sheik, Falco, and Falcon) is counterbalanced by ICs' conspicuous weakness against Peach, Ganon, Marth, and Samus (all of whom, imo, are harder to beat than Fox).

 

[PEEF!]

I think Marth is easier than Fox.

I really have personally an easy time with that MU.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Who in the Midwest is notable with Marth? Tink? Brightside? Not really.

Midwest is a breeding ground for Foxes and Falcons.

 

[PEEF!]

I just think that that is the thing. "Good marths" don't exist, besides like 1 or 2.

Fox is one of my hardest MUs. Sooo harddddd.

 

[dablackpacman]

u kno, chu-dat use to be ranked really high. u think his decent was highly due to the fact that he rarely did any desyncd moves and simply had good chaingrabbing skills along with people inability to play the ICs on a high lvl

 

[PEEF!]

I just think that that is the thing. "Good marths" don't exist, besides like 1 or 2.

Fox is one of my hardest MUs. Sooo harddddd.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox is one of my hardest MUs. Sooo harddddd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B0AZInBeVY

 

[KirbyKaze]

Out of curiosity, where do you guys think ICs should be on the tier list? They currently "officially" stand at the bottom of high tier. Peach, Falcon, and Jiggly are above them (in addition to the top tier of course) and Samus, Doc, and Ganon are just below them.

I think that Ice Climbers, Ganon, Doc, and Samus are some of the worst characters you can play in a tournament with the intention of winning. But they also have good winning tools, even if they only have a few.

I think they're better or about as good as Ganon.

Ganon/IC
Samus
Doc

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think that Ice Climbers, Ganon, Doc, and Samus are some of the worst characters you can play in a tournament with the intention of winning. But they also have good winning tools, even if they only have a few.

I think they're better or about as good as Ganon.

Ganon/IC
Samus
Doc

I think I argee with this. also sveet's marth doesn't suck.

 

[PB&J]

im really mad people are putting icys on the same tier as ganon..icys **** and can win tournies..oh canada

 

[KirbyKaze]

Neither character is going to win a national in this day and age.

 

[mastermoo420]

They can if you believe

 

[KirbyKaze]

The existence of Armada invalidates their ability to win a national.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

They can if you believe

this right here times a semi big number


also there were 83 people in singles that's fairly big.

 

[Kyu Puff]

The existence of Armada invalidates their ability to win a national.

The IC player would just need a bit of bracket luck or a secondary...

 

[Wobbles]

I fully believe ICs can win a major tournament. You have to go through a lot of bull**** to do it, and part of the problem is you will never get the kind of practice you need because people won't play that way in friendlies against you since it's not happy fun-time for either player. I played Kels two days ago and it was a mighty mighty pain having to learn how to fight a Fox who is incredibly patient on top of being really good. He camped me more than any other Fox has done before, and he also had experience killing Nana which meant my mistakes were very costly. But I had some folks coach me and I adapted.

Frankly, none of us ICs are good enough *as players* to win, regardless of who we decide to use. I'm working on it though

And yeah, Armada would be tough. I don't believe ICs v Peach is unwinnable though, so you'd just have to be better.