Social General Ice Climber Chat

[PEEF!]

I plan on being more vocal about the legality of wobbling in my region. We'll see how it goes.

One of the reasons he said he had banned it was because you didn't say anything.

There's no need to l-cancel Nana's dair when chain grabbing Falcon ...

There is if you want to blizzard>semi-wobble or semi-wobble straight out. If she doesn't l-cancel there is valuable time sat in lag where any competent person will break out.

 

[Cia]

lol.. macd actually fought to get wobbling banned?

does he not know that he plays Peach?

mass fail.

 

[pockyD]

well almost anyone that doesn't actually play ICs will want it 'banned' simply because it benefits them

same reason IC players like to complain about stages

 

[Magus420]

I found something neat

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10701222

 

[Kyu Puff]

Amazing...

How strict is the timing for blizzard + headbutts? And how many headbutts do you do during the blizzard, one or two (assuming 1.0)?

Also, would you be willing to test some other IC-related stuff with your action replay/gif magic? There are tons of things I've been wanting to check out.

I hope Magus comes to correct me or something, but this is what I've gathered so far:

Neutral tech is 26 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.

Tech rolls are 40 frames, vulnerable on frame 21.

After d-throw f-air, provided they don't DI away, you can dash with Popo, crouch -> d-smash on approximately frame 14, and the d-smash will cover both the tech in place/no tech (back hitbox will come out on ~21) and one tech roll (the front hitbox ends on ~26). If they DI away, this can cover only the no tech/tech in place option.


Other things I'm looking into:

After d-throw f-air, dash forward with Popo and d-smash with Nana only to cover the tech in place. The problem is that f-air has 20 frames of landing lag, and Nana probably killed some time in the air, so her d-smash will come out later than frame 26.

You can potentially fix this by l-canceling the f-air, wavedashing out of shield with Popo, and d-smashing with Nana during the wavedash. This would cover the tech in place option, but I'm not sure about the tech away, and it would be much more difficult to do. I have some other ideas, but I feel like they're even slower/less humanly possible.

The idea is to cover multiple options, including no di/tech in place, no di/tech away, no di/no tech, and di away/no tech. I was also wondering if you can tech chase fastfallers the same way, with a well-timed d-smash as they hit the ground after d-throw.

 

[Magus420]

I imagine it's very close to the same 8-13, 9-12, or 10-11 window I mentioned for f-tilt headbutt blizzard which depends on how late the headbutt is after the blizzard, since f-tilt and blizzard's cooldowns are very similar. If it's as late as possible without allowing a break you get the 8-13. It's probably slightly easier in non-1.0 versions.

You can get 2 headbutts during it in 1.0, but they need to be timed really well or the headbutt that links to the next blizzard doesn't hit in time and they break out. I had an easier time doing it with just 1 near the beginning of the blizzard so I could focus on timing the last headbutt properly though.

If I remember to I'll maybe check some of that other stuff out next time I boot up AR.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Does the timing for the headbutts vary by version? I'd imagine that it would since it takes considerably longer to do a headbutt during a blizzard in versions past 1.0, IIRC.

 

[Magus420]

The headbutt itself takes longer? That doesn't really make sense to me since the headbutt's hitlag should be the same, but I can't really comment since I only have 1.0 to look at.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The headbutt itself takes longer? That doesn't really make sense to me since the headbutt's hitlag should be the same, but I can't really comment since I only have 1.0 to look at.

I don't why it is the case, but there is a difference. For example, compare the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5dd7poM8SE#t=0m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm3j8IY6xhE#t=3m9s

 

[pockyD]

It appears that Zhu/MacD convinced that WC host to ban wobbling again. Funny....I thought that Zhu believed wobbling to be fair.

I think that the attendees were a factor in the decision because as soon as he mentioned unbanning wobbling, everyone gave a resounding AW HELL NAW. Someone even threatened not to come, which is really funny because the only IC player there is Fly who's really good with grabs anyway.

gmail has ****ty formatting, but

me: what did you tell stabto get him to ban it
zhu: i'm semi writing a post about that
i didn't think he'd actually ban it again
he kinda just asked me / mccain what we thought about it
me: it sounds like he just listens to whoever he talked to last LOL
zhu: yeah LOL
argumentatively
it's not really bannable
it's really hard to actually argue for a ban
i kinda just told him that
i tihnk it would just make some people mad / discourage them from entering
me: only the people that are already looking for an excuse not to go
like connor
zhu: mmm yeah
possibly
connor was right in front of me so that example might've been too easy LOL
but i think that is true for alot of scrubs
"scrubs"
me: what
fly is going to whoop their *** anyway
zhu: but i don't think
yeah
fly would bother wobbling them
me: and nobody else plays ICs
zhu: so i was actually gonna ask
stab to just keep it on
that's basically what i'm doing now
me: it's not like they're losing to boback
zhu: LOL
this issue is probably a bigger deal to fly than it is to me
so i mean i don't really caer that much
and if it's a matter of principle
wobbling really shouldn't be banned
LOL

 

[Kyu Puff]

If only east coast to's were that easily swayable. A lot of them aren't willing to discuss their decisions at all.

Magus, how do you tell if it combos in training mode? Whenever I blizzard it resets to 1.

Also, if ICs sh ff auto-cancel b-air on someone's shield, and then d-smash as soon as possible, how many frames does the shielding player have to escape?

A while ago I esimated ~2 frames, which seemed consistent with testing (Fox could buffer roll out of it, but couldn't jump without getting hit). It's probably more than that though, because I wasn't sure how hitlag would affect being able to fastfall or auto-cancel the b-air.

 

[Magus420]

Tell if what combos? The headbutts and blizzards? If you reset their damage to 0 each time before grabbing you'll know if it worked if they break out or not. If you just headbutt blizzard by itself they always break as soon as the blizzard stun ends. If you can get the headbutt blizzard after the first one without them breaking you'll know you did it right.

I have no idea.

 

[Wobbles]

The blizzard one is hard I can't seem to find the timing at all. If Magus feels like making a video of it in action that'd be a big help to me.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Do it at the very end of the blizzard. I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, but the computer isn't breaking out...

I have no idea.

I guess a better question would be, when you're in the hitlag of an aerial, does anything happen at all? Are you frozen in place in air, or will you keep falling/spend the same amount of time in the air as an empty jump?

 

[Vanitas]

Can someone post a video of the "Blobble" in action? Nice discovery btw Magus
They might be able to ban wobbling but we now have blobbling!

 

[Nintendude]

Blizzard has increased hitlag in versions 1.2, Player's Choice, and PAL. It's just like how Samus's up-B changes in those versions. I'm not sure of the exact mechanics why headbutts get lagged as well, but it's definitely something to do with Blizzard's increased hitstun.

If you want to know if you are playing a version with fast grab/blizzards, check the bottom of the disc for a DOL-GALE-0-0x. If x is you 0 or 1 then it is version 1.0 or 1.1 respectively, which has the lower hitstun.

 

[Magus420]

Blobbling video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1d7DHgsDOk

I guess a better question would be, when you're in the hitlag of an aerial, does anything happen at all? Are you frozen in place in air, or will you keep falling/spend the same amount of time in the air as an empty jump?

In hitlag you stop moving and don't fall. It wouldn't change what part of the move you'd be in when you land. You can't input a fastfall during hitlag though, but I dunno if that'd be relevant for a SH FF b-air or not.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Blobbling video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1d7DHgsDOk

This is wonderful.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Okay, I did one of these things:

1 Jump start
2
3
4 (airborne 1) start b-air
5 (airborne 2)
6 (airborne 3)
7 (airborne 4)
8 (airborne 5)
9 (airborne 6)
10 (airborne 7)
11 (airborne 8) b-air hits, stun 1 - 7 ~ all hitlag occurs here
18 (airborne 9) stun (8)
19 (airborne 10) stun (9)
20 (airborne 11) stun (10)
21 (airborne 12) stun (11)
22 (airborne 13) stun (12)
23 (airborne 14) stun (13)
24 (airborne 15) stun (14)
25 (airborne 16) fastfall, nana stun (9)
26 (airborne 17) nana stun (10)
27 (airborne 18) nana stun (11)
28 (airborne 19) nana stun (12)
29 (airborne 20) nana stun (13)
30 (airborne 21) nana stun (14)
31 land lag
32 land lag
33 land lag
34 land lag
35 start d-smash
36
37
38
39
40 d-smash hits

B-air
Hit: 8-11
Auto cancel: <7 19>
Net shield stun: 7

D-smash
Hit: 6-11

SH air time: 30
Earliest FF: 16
SH FF air time: 21

If I didn't make any mistakes, it looks like 9 frames out of shield stun?

 

[Magus420]

As long as the hitlag is 6+ frames and you don't need to turn around to hit on frame 6 of d-smash that looks about right to me.

 

[smakis]

iirc pummel has less startup/lag in 1.0, even if you dont blizzard you pummel faster i think

 

[Kyu Puff]

I've decided that up+b cancel is almost always a better edgehog than wavedashing because

a) Nana won't kill herself and is invincible,
b) it looks cool, and
c) ledgehop u-air into Nana's lingering up+b is even cooler.

 

[cjugs]

I want to practice platform canceling and i thought it would be perfect if i freeze glitched a character to sit on the platform so i could practice but is there a easy way to do the freeze glitch for say a non tech skilled link player i have this friend......

 

[Kyu Puff]

Get them on the platform near the edge, spotdodge and hold z so Nana grabs and try to side+b as she f-throws. It might take a couple of tries but eventually you should get it.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, if you spot dodge and hold Z it de-syncs into Nana's grab. If you get them at the edge of the platform then she'll automatically throw them towards that edge, so you can guarantee you get the f-throw.

More simply:

1) Get enemy at the edge of platform.
2) Spot dodge and then hold Z
3) Nana will grab
4) Forward+b at the right time
5) Giggle

Edit:

Mine is clearly better than Kyu's because it has a list with numbers and giggling.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Were the numbers and giggling worth the six minutes?

btw, what do you think of this?:

I agree, I've been meaning to suggest that we make a new ICs guide that covers as much information as possible, including a grab section, situational combos, updated match-up strategies, and just theory in general. It could be a community effort because whenever someone decides to do it themselves, it never seems to get finished.

 

[smakis]

speaking of fthrow is it really 100 %?

played a cpu a couple of days ago and was standing at the very edge of a plattform on FoD facing out, and she backthrew, i remember it clearly because i was all wtf when i saw it

edit: maybe the platform was moving, could that have caused it?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've lost a match to somebody who did nothing but try to grab me and freeze glitch.

 

[Wobbles]

speaking of fthrow is it really 100 %?

played a cpu a couple of days ago and was standing at the very edge of a plattform on FoD facing out, and she backthrew, i remember it clearly because i was all wtf when i saw it

edit: maybe the platform was moving, could that have caused it?

I've had some weird discrepancies with her AI on this. Usually when it's moving it doesn't do that; you can use the "fake" edges during PS's transformation to manipulate her throw AI even though there isn't literally a ledge there.

It does bear mentioning that she seems to favor b-throw more than f-throw; if you're in the middle of a platform she will prioritize her back to her front. Then again, as you said you were at the very edge. Maybe the moving platform DOES have an effect, but I've never experienced that personally.

So... it's a mystery!

 

[Binx]

so wobbles I've seen you do reverse dair cgs on peach and marth where it looked like nana runs behind them and quickly dairs to push them behind you, or right back in front of you if they were DIing away, do you do any sort of special timing?

 

[Kyu Puff]

The timing is the same as normal d-throw d-air.

Some new ideas, as long as we're advancing the IC metagame:

We've noticed before that pivot aerials spread Popo and Nana away from each other. I never really see anyone doing it, but pivot u-air is especially useful because it extends u-air's horizontal range considerably and is great at catching people as they try to jump over you.

F-throw/d-throw -> ice block -> regrab? If you space the ice block correctly (slightly above them), it cancels out the launch from the hammer and keeps your victim immobile. It seems like it has enough hitstun, but I still have to test out different kinds of DI to see if it would be useful in any situation.

I think ice shot also has a weaker launch hitbox, but I haven't been able to get it with any kind of consistency. I might be imagining it.

A few days ago I found out that you could cancel the reset on Kirby's aerial side+b by landing in the middle of any other move. For example, you can run off the stage and side+b, recover, then only land on the stage using some kind of aerial (which unfortunately means no wavedash). Then, the next time you use aerial side+b, he will fall to the ground instead popping up into the air.

I tested it last night and as it turns out, ice blocks have the same properties. We all knew that if you jump really high and use ice blocks while falling, only the first one will pop you up in the air; any subsequent ice blocks won't affect your falling momentum at all. This is because the trigger only resets when you land. As with Kirby's side+b, you can stop it from resetting by landing in the middle of another move, including any aerial, squall hammer, or blizzard. If you wavedash it will reset, but otherwise you can run around, do sh aerials, and eventually use a non-reset ice block.

It might be too tedious to set up (the only time you would ever consider it is while your opponent is respawning) but I think the falling ice block is actually very useful; you can approach with an instant ice block chase, combo into grab or other moves, etc. Unfortunately, landing ice block does reset itself so it's a one-shot deal.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

LOL, I didn't know that the ICs had a variant of that glitch.

The glitch looks like a dumb error on the programmers' behalf concerning moves behave differently after you use them once in the air. They obviously tried to make it so that once you land after doing such a move, the move resets to its initial state, but they didn't consider all of the ways you can land. To the best of my knowledge, the only things that reset the initial state of such a move are dying, land fall special, and land fall (I'm assuming that's the name of the regular landing animation; somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

If the ICs' ice block glitch does behave like this, then you could also land with squall hammer or blizzard since neither of those trigger land fall special or land fall and preserve the falling ice block. Well, there might be an issue with squall hammer since if you finish it in the air, you go into fall special, but I don't think that will be a problem since we're finishing it on the ground here.

Another thing to keep in mind is that grabbing onto the edge doesn't trigger either of the relevant animations, so if you shoot an ice block while recovering and then grab onto the edge, you should be able do ledgehop -> falling ice block, which I can see actually having some nice applications.

edit: wait, I noticed you already mentioned squall hammer and blizzard. I skim things too often.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hey do I have the timing for wobbling right/ am I going to son or what? should I go faster on nana or popo or what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwtB2fWHaoU

 

[pockyD]

i'm not sure if it's necessarily a 'glitch'; perhaps they want to enforce some hypothetical definition of "safely" landing on the stage before refreshing recovery-esque moves (marth/mario side-b, etc)

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I had another funny thought. I bet you could have only one IC have the reset ice block. This could give us a quick means of desynching that also provides some protection via ice blocks. I'd guess that the easiest way to set this up would be to do something like jump off-stage, shoot an ice block, and have Popo grab the edge; Nana will double jump and you can then have Popo jump on stage and land with an aerial, while Nana lands normally. This should give Nana a normal ice block and Popo a non-reset one. The only time you could probably get away with that would be between the opponent's stocks, though.

 

[pockyD]

i don't think it's very useful to try to persist in that state because it gets reset by wavedash/land

 

[Kyu Puff]

You can just land with b-air or f-air. The major issue is that you can't wavedash, and if you get hit it usually resets.

Fly: I like the idea of recovering with it; if you're high enough to shoot ice blocks while landing, you could probably either do a low squall recovery or try to sweetspot the ledge with up+b. I think your second idea works also.

 

[Smasher89]

Currently thinking about which move to use for recovery to get slightly closer to the stage, like shieks jumps and fair to get closer. Uairspam?(seems like I got opushed down more by it for example)...

 

[pockyD]

i'm pretty sure in most cases (like sheik's fair) it's an illusion

 

[Vanitas]

so i have version 1.2 of melee and i almost have blobbling down already i think its easier to do because i can just mash the A button for headbutting (it comes out slower but i think it sets up the timing nicely). The earlier versions would seem more difficult because if you mash the A button, Popo headbutts much more faster than the 1.2 version.