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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'll infinite you~
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I played today and the ledgehop -> non-reset ice block seems legit. It's pretty easy to follow up with other stuff, so you can use it to create some breathing room.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ahaha imma practice that ice block trick right now!
And how exactly is this set up? Do 2 iceblocks in the air then grab the ledge?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
While recovering with Sopo, shoot one ice block while off-stage and then grab the edge. Then ledgehop -> ice block.
AshuRawRun
Smash Apprentice
Could you please make a video of what you were talking about, I don't really understand what you mean and what's "Sopo" ? 
Hey folks: vids of me versus Zhu from POE3 are up.
Also went to a tournament and played three sets against Darkrain pushing each one to the 5th game. I think they might even all have been recorded. So at some point you can watch me playing 15 matches of ICs v Falcon (infinites illegal) This includes two victories on Rainbow Cruise and one on Brinstar. As well as me getting reamed on DK64.
Ashu: SoPo = Solo Popo.
Also went to a tournament and played three sets against Darkrain pushing each one to the 5th game. I think they might even all have been recorded. So at some point you can watch me playing 15 matches of ICs v Falcon (infinites illegal)
This includes two victories on Rainbow Cruise and one on Brinstar. As well as me getting reamed on DK64.Ashu: SoPo = Solo Popo.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
@ Wobles
"I like the way you move" -Outkast
"I like the way you move" -Outkast
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
For the record, I didn't actually say you suck. The guy who was reading the stream just said that. >_>
I did make the comment that you need work in doubles, though. ICs in doubles play a very opportunistic role. More often than less, it's a good idea to camp until you see an opening; ICs still punish as hard as ever, but they're bad at creating openings in doubles, so you typically need to wait for a chance to do something. An exception to this is when the round devolves into two distinct 1v1s, in which case it's fine to play like you usually do. But yeah, just play a little more conservatively in the hectic scenarios and you'll probably do fine.
Based on what I've seen of you and what I've heard from Bizzarro Flame, it does sound like you're improving considerably faster than most other ICs around your level, so keep up the good work!
illusion indeed, magus has already proved fair, bair, shine whatever move does not help your recovery in any way
iirc the only characters benefiting from doing anything in their jumps are mewtwo, kirby and jigglypuff. Mewtwo with (i think) bair at the peak of his double jump, and kirby/puff have a special jump state where they are inflated, decreasing their horizontal movement, doing a move cancels the inflated state making them able to keep their normal horizontal movement while jumping.
AshuRawRun
Smash Apprentice
Thanks Wobbles! Aaaaaaah cool I wanted to see match between ICs and CF where IC don't get ***** =)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Watching Wobbles is pretty educational.
An aerial during your recovery does help with ICs, if only to break you out of free-fall so you can air-dodge if need be. Wiggling works but it momentarily slows down your aerial DI.
Some moves will also distort your hitbox for better and worse; there are times a move will change your model enough to let you land on platforms when you wouldn't have before. I'm pretty sure u-air stretches you out so even though you don't technically lose height, the bottom of your character has a tougher time making it over the level.
I played REALLY WELL I thought during a lot of my set against Zhu; sharp, compact movements and good calls... unfortunately in our second set I messed up almost every CG due to nerves/tiredness/not recognizing that Nana was out of position for them. Not every grab is created equal >_>
Asha: Well, I spend a lot of those matches getting *****, TBH. The trick to playing ICs vs. Falcon, ICs vs. Peach, etc., is to mitigate his openings and make him work as hard as he can to get every little hit, and never mess up your own critical openings. That can actually put a lot of the pressure on Falcon. I played DoH's Peach and he asserts that fighting ICs is actually *hard* because even though he can kind of just throw things out, if he DOES screw up it hurts a lot. I think we played a friendly where I kept track of the number of times I hit him; I got a quick three hit combo from like, dash-attack -> up-air -> b-air followup, and then two random smashes. He was at 100 percent and almost dead. We hit hard, us eskimos
So yeah, even though we're disadvantaged in most high-tier matchups from a situational perspective, our punishment game is so strong that if you can keep the other guy from benefiting too much from their openings then you can play mental attrition and come out on top. I think, for instance, that Sheik actually does well against ICs once she's precise and patient enough, but if she EVER screws up then it costs her big time. If you do it right, that should be the case for every character; patient play, good DI and tenacity are how I try and exploit this as much as possible.
Some moves will also distort your hitbox for better and worse; there are times a move will change your model enough to let you land on platforms when you wouldn't have before. I'm pretty sure u-air stretches you out so even though you don't technically lose height, the bottom of your character has a tougher time making it over the level.
I played REALLY WELL I thought during a lot of my set against Zhu; sharp, compact movements and good calls... unfortunately in our second set I messed up almost every CG due to nerves/tiredness/not recognizing that Nana was out of position for them. Not every grab is created equal >_>
Asha: Well, I spend a lot of those matches getting *****, TBH. The trick to playing ICs vs. Falcon, ICs vs. Peach, etc., is to mitigate his openings and make him work as hard as he can to get every little hit, and never mess up your own critical openings. That can actually put a lot of the pressure on Falcon. I played DoH's Peach and he asserts that fighting ICs is actually *hard* because even though he can kind of just throw things out, if he DOES screw up it hurts a lot. I think we played a friendly where I kept track of the number of times I hit him; I got a quick three hit combo from like, dash-attack -> up-air -> b-air followup, and then two random smashes. He was at 100 percent and almost dead. We hit hard, us eskimos
So yeah, even though we're disadvantaged in most high-tier matchups from a situational perspective, our punishment game is so strong that if you can keep the other guy from benefiting too much from their openings then you can play mental attrition and come out on top. I think, for instance, that Sheik actually does well against ICs once she's precise and patient enough, but if she EVER screws up then it costs her big time. If you do it right, that should be the case for every character; patient play, good DI and tenacity are how I try and exploit this as much as possible.
Facepalm
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
- Messages
- 31
Yeah i noticed that you didnt say that after i read the stream but yeah conservative i'll try that out the next time i play doubles with them
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Wobbles why did you d-smash out of your grab infinites prematurely? If Zhu DI'd them he could have survived more times than not, and if you got him in the grab it seems logical to just bring him to 150% where the kill is guaranteed, and then if you manage to screw up, at least he's one hit away from dying.
btw, I actually feel that Peach isn't THAT hard. At least for me, most of the time I get hit it's because I got impatient or tried to punish something I couldn't punish. Synched squall is good for getting out of corners and getting her out of the air sometimes. She dies pretty fast from surprise smashes and since most Peaches use more d-smash than usual vs. ICs, it makes it easier than usual to get grabs as long as your wd out of shield is on point. You just have to try to hold the center of the stage as much as you can, because Peach doesn't pose a threat if you can just roll or wd away when you aren't in a position to combat her approaches.
I haven't faced a Peach in a tournament match in forever though...
btw, I actually feel that Peach isn't THAT hard. At least for me, most of the time I get hit it's because I got impatient or tried to punish something I couldn't punish. Synched squall is good for getting out of corners and getting her out of the air sometimes. She dies pretty fast from surprise smashes and since most Peaches use more d-smash than usual vs. ICs, it makes it easier than usual to get grabs as long as your wd out of shield is on point. You just have to try to hold the center of the stage as much as you can, because Peach doesn't pose a threat if you can just roll or wd away when you aren't in a position to combat her approaches.
I haven't faced a Peach in a tournament match in forever though...
I did early ones because he explicitly said, "I'm not going to DI, just kill me." That's about it, really. Against Iori and Kels I kept going to KO percent (when I didn't screw up).
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Oh, that makes sense then.
Also, I 'm wondering if it's possible to shieldgrab Nana out of Falco's d-throw. It looked like you were trying it but it never worked out. That move is really annoying so being able to shieldgrab it would be a great way to limit Falco's tools even more.
Also, I 'm wondering if it's possible to shieldgrab Nana out of Falco's d-throw. It looked like you were trying it but it never worked out. That move is really annoying so being able to shieldgrab it would be a great way to limit Falco's tools even more.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I liked your set with Kels. Your edgeguarding was great (especially when you went for the aggressive b-airs) and I noticed the time you did d-throw -> d-smash as a techchase to cover multiple options.
Were the d-throw reverse d-air d-smashes accidents? Or did you have some kind of agreement with Zhu? It seemed kind of strange coming from you. I haven't watched the first set yet though, I'll need to do that later.
Our punishment game on Peach isn't bad at all. Any launcher combos into u-air, which combos into almost anything while she's stuck above you. If you manage to grab her, you can deal a lot of damage even without wobbling, and like you said, she dies pretty early from any of your kill moves.
Something I realized at a smashfest on friday is that her float isn't so dangerous if you react to it correctly. At lower heights you can beat it with retreating b-air or dd grab as she lands. Sh u-air beats most higher heights as long as you stay relatively close to her.
But like you said, most Peaches will adjust their game and d-smash a lot more. Theoretically it shouldn't be that hard for us to beat it -- by wding oos properly, or baiting her to do it in an unsafe position, or baiting the spotdodge after the d-smash -- but for some reason it seems like her d-smash is always safer than our attempted punish.
Were the d-throw reverse d-air d-smashes accidents? Or did you have some kind of agreement with Zhu? It seemed kind of strange coming from you. I haven't watched the first set yet though, I'll need to do that later.
I feel like Peach beats Ice Climbers for the same reason Jigglypuff beats everyone else. It's not really that she has an enormous advantage, but that she's safe in so many situations. She can stay relatively comfortable while tricking you into thinking she's not, and land hits more consistently than you overall. When you eventually make a mistake, she hits/separates you really hard, which might be why the match-up always seems so hopeless.
Our punishment game on Peach isn't bad at all. Any launcher combos into u-air, which combos into almost anything while she's stuck above you. If you manage to grab her, you can deal a lot of damage even without wobbling, and like you said, she dies pretty early from any of your kill moves.
Something I realized at a smashfest on friday is that her float isn't so dangerous if you react to it correctly. At lower heights you can beat it with retreating b-air or dd grab as she lands. Sh u-air beats most higher heights as long as you stay relatively close to her.
But like you said, most Peaches will adjust their game and d-smash a lot more. Theoretically it shouldn't be that hard for us to beat it -- by wding oos properly, or baiting her to do it in an unsafe position, or baiting the spotdodge after the d-smash -- but for some reason it seems like her d-smash is always safer than our attempted punish.
My main problem against peach is spaced fairs, and that I tend to shield them.
Close to midstage I lightshield it, being put to the ledge by the slide. At the ledge, theres no good reason to shield it since it´ll only lead to another fair which WILL KO Nana.
A sollution that might work atleast on PS, is iceblock on the platform, taking her float away, combined with the blizzard making the interesting wall I know wobbles atleast used to use alot. At FD I really have no idea, it´s good that it has alot of space, but those floatcanceled aerials that atleast seems ungrabable is hard to punish. Dsmash should be the main thing to never ever run into.
EDIT: From a more positive perspective (getting into the right mindset) ICs fair seems to have good priority from above against her and can with the right kind of hit lead to grabs. Her weight is kinda good for jab turnaround dsmash too at rather high%(around 80%?) and it´s sometimes possible to shieldgrab some of her aerials.
Close to midstage I lightshield it, being put to the ledge by the slide. At the ledge, theres no good reason to shield it since it´ll only lead to another fair which WILL KO Nana.
A sollution that might work atleast on PS, is iceblock on the platform, taking her float away, combined with the blizzard making the interesting wall I know wobbles atleast used to use alot. At FD I really have no idea, it´s good that it has alot of space, but those floatcanceled aerials that atleast seems ungrabable is hard to punish. Dsmash should be the main thing to never ever run into.
EDIT: From a more positive perspective (getting into the right mindset) ICs fair seems to have good priority from above against her and can with the right kind of hit lead to grabs. Her weight is kinda good for jab turnaround dsmash too at rather high%(around 80%?) and it´s sometimes possible to shieldgrab some of her aerials.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Ugh. I need to play more passively in neutral positions. Sometimes I get overconfident with my wavedashes out of shield and get myself into mixup situations that require me to have really good execution if I want to even have a chance. If I mess up, I'm going to get d-smashed. I can take the risk, but it's probably wiser to wavedash away, allow neutrality to be restored, maybe toss an ice block at her for spite, all the while frustrating Peach by not giving her the satisfaction of connecting a d-smash.
Kyu: I like it as a good low percent grab combo that can kill somebody by forcing bad DI. All my CGs were off so I decided to start going with plays that might give me better positions--edgeguards mostly--and some guaranteed percent rather than try for the whole punish, since I just wasn't getting them right that set.
Smasher89: I just played DoH in a tournament and he counterpicked me to FD. During our friendlies he'd been wrecking me there pretty much for reasons you described. I beat him though and I think it was recorded, so I'll link to that if it exists and maybe you can see what worked for me, if it helps.
Also, for my Kels set.... yeeesh that was a rough one o_O It's too easy to land grabs am I right guys?
Smasher89: I just played DoH in a tournament and he counterpicked me to FD. During our friendlies he'd been wrecking me there pretty much for reasons you described. I beat him though and I think it was recorded, so I'll link to that if it exists and maybe you can see what worked for me, if it helps.
Also, for my Kels set.... yeeesh that was a rough one o_O It's too easy to land grabs am I right guys?
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I'm glad you feel that way, that makes me feel a little better LOOL.
If I can't play well at Apex I'll make sure you will. PERSONAL CHEERING SQUAD!!!
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Julian is the man.
I played really well this weekend during my trip to Chicago.
Here was who I lost to in both of this weekends tournaments:
Tourney 1:
1: Peach (John!)
2: Peach (AnDaLe, he played Falco too but I beat it)
Tourney 2:
1: Tink
2: Kels
WTF LOL.
I really have no answer whatsoever for competent peaches. They float at me, Fair my shield, then dsmash. Wether I lightshielded or not makes hardly a difference.
Here was who I lost to in both of this weekends tournaments:
Tourney 1:
1: Peach (John!)
2: Peach (AnDaLe, he played Falco too but I beat it)
Tourney 2:
1: Tink
2: Kels
WTF LOL.
I really have no answer whatsoever for competent peaches. They float at me, Fair my shield, then dsmash. Wether I lightshielded or not makes hardly a difference.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Try not to shield her f-air unless you really have no other choice. Usually it means she outspaced or outpositioned you, or you hesitated and might've been able to do something else.
I just noticed something watching an old vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxm-uE_-sJg#t=1m15s
How did Nana jab immediately after being shined? Did it have to do with the platform about to rise or something?
Also, nobody responded to this before so I'll ask again. If you lightshield a strong move by the ledge and it pushes you off, Nana jumps which makes it really easy to kill her. Is it possible to up+b cancel as you slide off, or are you still in shield stun (I wouldn't think so because you're no longer in your shield)?
I just noticed something watching an old vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxm-uE_-sJg#t=1m15s
How did Nana jab immediately after being shined? Did it have to do with the platform about to rise or something?
Also, nobody responded to this before so I'll ask again. If you lightshield a strong move by the ledge and it pushes you off, Nana jumps which makes it really easy to kill her. Is it possible to up+b cancel as you slide off, or are you still in shield stun (I wouldn't think so because you're no longer in your shield)?
john!
Smash Hero
You lost to me in the second tourney too Peef. LOL Peach wrecks the Climbers so hard. Try throwing out smash attacks and WDing out of shield more before I zone you in with float aerials. Also don't try to dair chaingrab because I usually got out, just upsmash and juggle with uair. Peach is too good at not getting grabbed, so you've just gotta work on the rest of the IC's game or pick up a secondary. Also when you spotdodge blizzard, I just floated over it and punished Nana. And even if the blizzard hit me, I'd just DI out of it. That **** only works on my Falco lol...
Come back up to Chicago for SCSYN if you have the time!
Come back up to Chicago for SCSYN if you have the time!
Kyu, I have no doubt that you're stuck in shield stun. If you were facing off the level though that stun would cancel instantly and you can up+b cancel right away into a Nana-rocket.
Alternatively, if you're using the double shield trick, Nana's shield will get hit first and that pushes her onto the edge so she can't double jump because the light shield stun is too great. You fall down beneath it and you can cancel her ledge options with up+b if you want.
Alternatively, if you're using the double shield trick, Nana's shield will get hit first and that pushes her onto the edge so she can't double jump because the light shield stun is too great. You fall down beneath it and you can cancel her ledge options with up+b if you want.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Alright thanks, that answers my question. Rolling towards the stage gets punished so much that maybe either of those would be good options. Any idea on Nana jabbing directly out of shine?
Also, it looks like b-air's hitbox doesn't hit behind you until frame 11 (or maybe 10, it's hard to tell), so my chart was off. I think it would look more like this:
1 Jump start
2
3
4 (airborne 1) start b-air
5 (airborne 2)
6 (airborne 3)
7 (airborne 4)
8 (airborne 5)
9 (airborne 6)
10 (airborne 7)
11 (airborne 8)
18 (airborne 9)
19 (airborne 10)
20 (airborne 11) b-air hits, stun 1 - 7 ~ all hitlag occurs here
21 (airborne 12) stun (8)
22 (airborne 13) stun (9)
23 (airborne 14) stun (10)
24 (airborne 15) stun (11)
25 (airborne 16) fastfall, stun (12)
26 (airborne 17) stun (13)
27 (airborne 18) stun (14)
28 (airborne 19) nana stun (9)
29 (airborne 20) nana stun (10)
30 (airborne 21) nana stun (11)
31 land lag, nana stun (12)
32 land lag, nana stun (13)
33 land lag, nana stun (14)
34 land lag
35 start d-smash
36
37
38
39
40 d-smash hits
which means that there are only 6 dead frames in between the b-air and d-smash. It also looks like you could possibly delay the b-air by a few frames and make it even more airtight, but that would be kind of hard to time and I think we usually use the earliest b-air anyways.
I'm also looking into latest possible (perfect) b-air right now. Edit: I made a little mistake. It's less likely to land on a shield, but if it does you have some interesting options. I might make a shield pressure thread because I find it interesting and it's always useful to know how safe your moves are, so I'll post more on this later.
And just to make sure--you can fastfall an aerial any frame not in hitlag, right? (I don't have melee right now so I can't test this stuff out.)
Also, it looks like b-air's hitbox doesn't hit behind you until frame 11 (or maybe 10, it's hard to tell), so my chart was off. I think it would look more like this:
1 Jump start
2
3
4 (airborne 1) start b-air
5 (airborne 2)
6 (airborne 3)
7 (airborne 4)
8 (airborne 5)
9 (airborne 6)
10 (airborne 7)
11 (airborne 8)
18 (airborne 9)
19 (airborne 10)
20 (airborne 11) b-air hits, stun 1 - 7 ~ all hitlag occurs here
21 (airborne 12) stun (8)
22 (airborne 13) stun (9)
23 (airborne 14) stun (10)
24 (airborne 15) stun (11)
25 (airborne 16) fastfall, stun (12)
26 (airborne 17) stun (13)
27 (airborne 18) stun (14)
28 (airborne 19) nana stun (9)
29 (airborne 20) nana stun (10)
30 (airborne 21) nana stun (11)
31 land lag, nana stun (12)
32 land lag, nana stun (13)
33 land lag, nana stun (14)
34 land lag
35 start d-smash
36
37
38
39
40 d-smash hits
which means that there are only 6 dead frames in between the b-air and d-smash. It also looks like you could possibly delay the b-air by a few frames and make it even more airtight, but that would be kind of hard to time and I think we usually use the earliest b-air anyways.
I'm also looking into latest possible (perfect) b-air right now. Edit: I made a little mistake. It's less likely to land on a shield, but if it does you have some interesting options. I might make a shield pressure thread because I find it interesting and it's always useful to know how safe your moves are, so I'll post more on this later.
And just to make sure--you can fastfall an aerial any frame not in hitlag, right? (I don't have melee right now so I can't test this stuff out.)
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I know, that's why the fastfall is on frame 16. I'm just trying to make sure you can fastfall in the middle of an aerial as long as you aren't in hitlag (for example, during the start-up animation, or after the hitlag while they are still in shield stun).
Technically you have a few frames before the peak of your jump where you can input the fast fall and still get it. You just don't start falling until whatever frame you're permitted to do so, but you have a bit of leeway on the input.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'm watching the Wobbles vs. Kels set now. Wobbles, I noticed you tried some sort of double edgegrab thing on your 3rd stock in the first match (like, it looked like you tried to get Nana to grab the edge in such a way that she'd get off and Popo can grab it). Is that something that actually works? It'd be really useful as a way to recover with up-B since I think most people would get edge get-up'd by Nana or something.
I liked the dash wd in place to cover two tech options with d-smash. I've done that by accident a lot in the past by running forward then wding back d-smash (or vice versa). I'm guessing you can do the same thing if he DIs forward, right? Except you would cover the neutral and backwards techs instead of forward and neutral?
Beautifully played overall.
I liked the dash wd in place to cover two tech options with d-smash. I've done that by accident a lot in the past by running forward then wding back d-smash (or vice versa). I'm guessing you can do the same thing if he DIs forward, right? Except you would cover the neutral and backwards techs instead of forward and neutral?
Beautifully played overall.
I just kind of played it by ear and hoped that Nana would be off the edge by the time I got there.
She wasn't.
Also, I've been trying to work on my tech-chase game and see if I can't find the optimal place to go to cover all 3 techs so I can just b-throw and d-throw people to death with SoPo. Sometimes it feels like I'm genuinely reacting and locking them in, sometimes not. Right now I'm practicing dashing to their landing spot and then bringing up my shield; if they tech in place, I grab from shield, if they go either left or right I WD out of shield to chase.
Also trying to work f-throw into my SoPo tech-chasing game because it does twice as much damage as b-throw and d-throw and it's always easier to track people when you've got them near the edge, so if I can throw them to those zones on the level it would 1) make it easier to kill off d-smash 2) decrease tech-chase reps so I don't have to do them as long. But it's kinda tough, if they DI away AND get the tech you often just can't catch them.
She wasn't.
Also, I've been trying to work on my tech-chase game and see if I can't find the optimal place to go to cover all 3 techs so I can just b-throw and d-throw people to death with SoPo. Sometimes it feels like I'm genuinely reacting and locking them in, sometimes not. Right now I'm practicing dashing to their landing spot and then bringing up my shield; if they tech in place, I grab from shield, if they go either left or right I WD out of shield to chase.
Also trying to work f-throw into my SoPo tech-chasing game because it does twice as much damage as b-throw and d-throw and it's always easier to track people when you've got them near the edge, so if I can throw them to those zones on the level it would 1) make it easier to kill off d-smash 2) decrease tech-chase reps so I don't have to do them as long. But it's kinda tough, if they DI away AND get the tech you often just can't catch them.