Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Wobbles]

SAYS YOU.

But really I feel like it's possible to do pure reaction on Falcon's tech-rolls from d-throw and b-throw. I had strings of them going against Darkrain but screwed up my positioning or grab timing.

Out of curiosity, why can't you just automatically input a dash away, then dash dance back in for the grab if he DIs in? Let your reaction be either the grab, or the dash back into grab, and you should be good, yeah? Not that I'd be the expert but it seems feasible.

 

[Magus420]

You can't react to DI away. Doesn't mean nobody can. It's possible, and no more difficult than Mario/Doc/G&W/Ganon d-throw CGs on Fox which some people are able to do. It's not as stupid hard at mid and higher damages.

 

[ChivalRuse]

D-throw chain grab is hard even if you get the read. Or maybe I just screw it up a lot.

 

[PEEF!]

Wobbles, that kind of stuff is what I tried to do but IDK...weel see. I'll try harder.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, now that I'm trying it and found the timing for the grab on complete DI away.... well, it's a pain, for sure. You have to input that grab so early that incorporating the dash dance would be VERY difficult. My reflexes aren't terribly good--it's a Falcon player's lucky day ;D--but sometimes I surprise myself. Try looking at the ground to watch Falcon's bounce for the first possible frame that you can distinguish a difference in DI; it might make a difference.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Standard standing grab is 7 frames. Dash grab is always slower, except ICs and Peach's dash grabs, which are also 7 frames.

Does this mean dash grab is better than JC'ed grab when d-throw cg'ing at low percents?

 

[Binx]

Depends on where you need your hitbox to be, if both hitboxes can grab then I suspect a normal dash grab would be better since jc grabs are slower by a frame or two unless you time it perfectly.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I jc my grabs when possible. Against Falcon you need to dash grab, but when you d-throw Sheik you can do either. Jc grab lags less if she manages to jump out, and I think the hitbox is a tiny bit higher which might make the cg last longer.

 

[Wobbles]

JC grabs give you the benefit of less after-lag, which means Nana will recover sooner to do things like infinites and grab damage before you reiterate your CG.

(I know we're kind of assuming SoPo here since it's a d-throw CG rather than d-throw d-air but there are still circumstances I find it better to go for basic d-throw before setting up the other ones)

 

[choknater]

u guys gotta do the choknater special where u dthrow cg with popo and taunt with nana between grabs

 

[Wobbles]

u guys gotta do the choknater special where u dthrow cg with popo and taunt with nana between grabs

I will do this in the next finals I make it to.

 

[Kyu Puff]

how did i never think of that?...

 

[Wobbles]

Okay guys, I want to go to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260193 and win.

How do I beat HBox?

 

[Binx]

Okay guys, I want to go to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260193 and win.

How do I beat HBox?

pivot iceblock upsmash

 

[ChivalRuse]

u guys gotta do the choknater special where u dthrow cg with popo and taunt with nana between grabs

That just sounds rude.

Not that I wouldn't do it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I just played for four hours and I'm feeling more confident than I have in quite a while. I'll see tomorrow if I'm actually back on point or if I'm just fooling myself.

Anyways, a couple things:

-Jumping into Fox's shine seems really impractical. For one thing, if you're aware that the Fox is going to shine, it's better to do something other than get hit by it. Secondly, it usually pushes you too far to do much.

-In addition to the non-reset ice block from the edge, if you shoot an ice block while recovering and then land on stage with side-B, you can make legitimate use of the non-reset ice block. Short hop non-reset ice block is an alright approach option. It's relatively safe and you can do funny combos off the of the hammer hit should that connect.

 

[Kyu Puff]

-In addition to the non-reset ice block from the edge, if you shoot an ice block while recovering and then land on stage with side-B, you can make legitimate use of the non-reset ice block. Short hop non-reset ice block is an alright approach option. It's relatively safe and you can do funny combos off the of the hammer hit should that connect.

Ice block -> grab is a good combo.

For one thing, if you're aware that the Fox is going to shine, it's better to do something other than get hit by it.

All you can really do against his shield pressure is roll away. This is potentially like wd oos but without any lag. I haven't tested it at all though, so you could be completely right, but if there was some way to move forward after getting hit it would be a tremendous improvement.

 

[choknater]

HELL YES NO BRINSTAR AND RC AT GSG!!!!!!

i get to make more legit bans now haha

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I did alright today. It wasn't my greatest showing, but I feel like I'm out of my slump, although I'm terrible against Peach. I'm undecided on whether I want to continue to bring out my Sheik for that match-up every now and then. I don't really understand the character and it shows; I did pretty badly against Connor with her. >_> I did at least beat Alex 19 convincingly and I felt like I was playing quite well for the most part, which is the first time in a couple months that I can say that.

Wobbling doesn't help me much since I'm bad at landing grabs. >_>

 

[choknater]

i think you should stay ic's for peach, you just seem like that kind of player to me. it takes extensive practice in certain matchups to really take your counter down... i never really lose to ganons with falco in tournament, but thats only cuz i practice it a lot cuz i see it coming. do u put a lot of time into the sheik v peach matchup?

does connor like, completely shut your ic's down? i know youve beaten macd before, but it depends on the peach's playstyle.

u got this fly

are u going to gsg?

 

[Smasher89]

Wobbles- Pick pokemon stadium, have a platform between you and him, desynch jumpåed iceblocks when is far away, blizzard when he comes closer and work from there might work =).

Finally won a match on RC against a Foxplayer=),
Up against Calle W next.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I haven't put a lot of time into the Sheik vs. Peach match-up because I never have opportunities to play good Peaches outside of tournaments, although that should change in the fall.

Connor has a bizarre playstyle, but it works. It's actually kind of like mine in that he rarely commits to high risk, high reward options, but still applies a lot of pressure and is good at getting people to run into things. It does cause my ICs a lot of problems, but I think I know how to respond to it next time.

Something funny I noticed is that I'm a lot more comfortable fighting Peach with Sopo. Of course, I do better with both ICs, but when I'm just Sopo and I don't have a Nana trailing behind me, I'm essentially a smaller and more mobile target, in which case I can play a platform-heavy game that I'm really comfortable with. I plan on trying something like that next time with both ICs, where I stick to platforms a lot (especially the top one on stages like Battlefield) and descend when I think it's safe, but only for a brief period of time so I don't find myself facing a Peach floating at me from above. It's probably not the optimal way to play the match-up, but it's the way that I would be most comfortable playing it and I think that would yield the best results for me.

And yes, I am going to GSG.


Oh yeah, I did really well in doubles with Replicate yesterday. We beat s2j+oscar and took a set off of Mango+Psychomidget, although they beat us 3-1 twice in GFs. I think all of those were recorded and they may be a decent reference for playing ICs in doubles, aside from my intermittent bouts of stupidity.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What's the safest way to challenge a Peach floating toward me at SH height/ground height?

I'd imagine fair and f-tilt would work for each height respectively. F-smash has too much lag and too much startup.

 

[Wobbles]

You generally don't. If there isn't a blizzard hitting her in the face, you typically shouldn't be challenging her low floats from the same height. B-air *can* work but she has too much opportunity to out-space using f-air. F-tilt is pretty good, and reaches surprisingly high angled up. Again though, generally not worth it; isolated hits are great and everything but you risk a lot when fighting her head-to-head at this height, and you rarely get solid openings out of it.

Don't rely on f-air to fight her ground floating or even her low floats. It requires a degree of precision *and* guesswork that does not have decent payoff for the risk. F-air is best for when *you* are higher up and have platforms to help you aim; if she's in the sky as well, it's tougher for her to change her air speed and get away from it.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I haven't put a lot of time into the Sheik vs. Peach match-up because I never have opportunities to play good Peaches outside of tournaments, although that should change in the fall.

Connor has a bizarre playstyle, but it works. It's actually kind of like mine in that he rarely commits to high risk, high reward options, but still applies a lot of pressure and is good at getting people to run into things. It does cause my ICs a lot of problems, but I think I know how to respond to it next time.

Something funny I noticed is that I'm a lot more comfortable fighting Peach with Sopo. Of course, I do better with both ICs, but when I'm just Sopo and I don't have a Nana trailing behind me, I'm essentially a smaller and more mobile target, in which case I can play a platform-heavy game that I'm really comfortable with. I plan on trying something like that next time with both ICs, where I stick to platforms a lot (especially the top one on stages like Battlefield) and descend when I think it's safe, but only for a brief period of time so I don't find myself facing a Peach floating at me from above. It's probably not the optimal way to play the match-up, but it's the way that I would be most comfortable playing it and I think that would yield the best results for me.

I think if you like platforms a lot, you should learn to shai drop. It'll help you move around platforms, especially with the "descending when you think it's safe" part. Quick / fastest way to come down, especially useful when the other character commits to attacking you when you're on the platform.

You got this Fly! You were playing real good, and I think you deserved that win against Hugo just as much as he did.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Thanks Zhu. I'll try to learn how to Shai drop on Friday.

 

[Wobbles]

I want to shai drop into a perfect waveland d-smash.

Edit: I just did it to a level 1 Mario. **** was so cash.

 

[PEEF!]

Wobbles, you are doing that peach guide right?

 

[Wobbles]

Yeah. It's a long one.

 

[PEEF!]

Oh so youve already written it?

 

[Wobbles]

No. It's a long one NOW. I can't wait to see what it looks like when I'm done

 

[PEEF!]

Dude....

I'm just amazed that an ICs vs Peach guide can include anything more than "get hit by moves, you will never get a grab ever, good luck".

 

[Wobbles]

The main problem is that the matchup has a pretty steep learning curve and you need to be very precise to get legitimate punishes and openings. Not exactly *outplay* the Peach, but you need extra experience to make the matchup come more close to even. It's honestly not as bad as I've previously thought, but you DO need to have experience, patience and precision.

I'm lucky because DoH has given me lots of Peach practice and likewise he's had IC practice from me, so we actually have something of a character matchup meta-game going. He actually insists to me that the matchup can be pretty tough for the Peach because--obviously--she doesn't want to get grabbed. And since I've got practice at punishing stuff like d-smash and I'm good at being evasive with Popo, trying to finish you off even after Nana is dead can be pretty long and grueling. He has to resist to just throw out d-smashes and random aerials because they are DEFINITELY punishable; you just need the experience to make it happen. Most ICs give up; I was too stupid to do so.

By the way, you can do d-throw d-air and just grab in place if you want to snag her out of the air. She might be able to SDI up and then get out or n-air you, but without the right timing you are able to actually use it on her. Then when she DIs away you can dash in and grab... works surprisingly well still.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Most Peaches will only d-smash if they land an aerial on my shield first. If I lightshield, the d-smash is virtually unpunishable ... but if I heavy shield, half the time the blender clips our toes.

Is there a trick to getting Peach to d-smash under more favorable conditions?

 

[Kyu Puff]

By the way, you can do d-throw d-air and just grab in place if you want to snag her out of the air. She might be able to SDI up and then get out or n-air you, but without the right timing you are able to actually use it on her. Then when she DIs away you can dash in and grab... works surprisingly well still.

I've noticed the d-throw d-air thing before too. It seems like standing grab can grab her out of certain frames of her float, and she can't double jump out, but I didn't know it worked 100% of the time.

Do you punish d-smash with grab? I always misjudge how much lag it has, go for a grab and run into another d-smash. I might try only punishing it with f-smash/f-air/something that's safe if I'm a few frames too slow from now on.

Chival: Avoid shielding her fc aerials as much as possible. Most Peaches I've played use d-smash in many other situations, but if she doesn't, that's a good thing.

Fly: I see what you mean by the jumping into shine thing now. You go pretty far in the air before you actually hit the ground most of the time, and there's no way to do anything after that.

 

[Wobbles]

I grab. I have a lot of practice getting the timing, and you usually need a good fast WD to get it; either that or be standing right outside of range, then dash in. WD d-smash if her percent is really high though, or if you're near the edge of the stage. D-throw + Peach DIs off the level = no follow up. If she's DI'ing away from you though, b-throw sets her up for u-air which is cool.

If for some reason you're sync'ed with Nana when Peach d-smashes, WD f-tilt at mid percents is terrific. She almost always CCs it and doesn't go very far, giving you a sync'ed tech-chase opportunity. If she's CC'ing and DI'ing in at the same time (lots of players seem to do this) then you can guarantee that inward roll as well. Neat.

I still screw it up though because IMO it's a tough window, made more complicated when she hits Nana, or those little pieces of crap in the middle of Brinstar.

Don't shield FC'ed aerials unless you have to. She can just keep on spamming them, unless her aerial comes in really high AND deep AND she's not moving in towards you for some reason, you almost never get a punish. So yeah, the Peach has to either be dumb or very confident in her FCs but then make a big mistake. Doesn't happen often.

Some Peaches just aren't very sharp on their floats though, so if you CAN take advantage of it, go for it!

Edit: Oh, and I just kind of realized this, but one of the reason the ICs take people by surprise so much is the game's camera! If you do something like a short wavedash backwards into a really long one going towards the opponent, the camera slowly starts zooming out then rapidly zooms in again. This gives the impression that the ICs are moving faster than they actually are. I want to try messing around and use the game's camera to mindgame people into messing stuff up

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There have been a few occasions where I've messed up people's recoveries by jumping high so they couldn't see the edge of the stage. Good times.

 

[Wobbles]

There have been a few occasions where I've messed up people's recoveries by jumping high so they couldn't see the edge of the stage. Good times.

Ahhh yes. Works pretty well on Battlefield and Dreamland.

Also, I've been messing around lately with off the stage f-airs that retreat back on to the level. I jump out, get even with their expected recovery path, then double jump and f-air back on. Does a decent job of covering a lot of room without getting hit yourself, seems to work decently against Falcon, Ganon and Peach if they've burned their double jump.

Kind of sucks because if you don't get the meteor smash then they'll just pop up high above the stage, but sometimes it gets them to fall low so when you return to the level they're easier to edgeguard. I dunno, just an experiment.

 

[choknater]

played mexican for hella hours today and got so good at the oh so valuable donkey kong matchup LOL

 

[Wobbles]

Don't get b-aired.

Win.

A little something like that?