choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol that and giant punch
idk he finds weird openings to get those in, probably just how i play lol
idk he finds weird openings to get those in, probably just how i play lol
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Nah, big swingin' monkey arms'll hit anybody. I don't even know how I'd really beat a DK, other than grab him and laugh. Lots of blizzards, throw ice blocks... pretty much what I do to any character that has outspacing moves -_- Get that one hit and make him go high, then start poking. Once his percent is up he'll start approaching and panicking, and babysit Nana till you get that grab.
My general gameplan, seems to work alright.
My general gameplan, seems to work alright.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah that'd work 
ur too good
ur too good
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
What's the most reliable way to deal with Marth's side-b? Is it possible to cc after you get hit by the first swing?
Binx
Smash Master
I try to SDI in and airdodge or shield unless I'm hit by the tip then I try to di away, the first hit pops you up so unless your really low percent I dont think you could cc the second hit, i doubt you could cc the third hit at any percent.
There was a few players looking at hitboxes at the tournament this week that stopped today, and I noticed that captain falcon does have a few frames in the nair hitbox after the first (high) leg there's no hitbox(damaging hitbox atleast) out, making it probably possible to punish between the hits. Not sure how useful but it might be very nice to test...
For taller characters you can actually CC and hit Falcon in between n-air hits. If he ledgehops it you should be able to CC->jab.
You can CC the hell out of Marth's forward+b. It's wonderful. I dunno about the later hits because I just focus on reading the first one, CC'ing and then pulling up my shield and grabbing when I have the chance.
Edit: Ohhhhhh **** son, I just found something REALLY interesting. This is practically the holy-grail of de-syncs since you can perform it out of a sync'ed wavedash.
1) Face backwards.
2) Smash the joystick like you were going to dash, but during the turn around animation, c-stick up or down.
With the right timing, Nana will dash in the direction you turned while Popo sits there smashing. Why is this awesome?
Again, you can perform it from any sync'ed and grounded position. Standing still you can throw out a smash then have Nana do a jumping blizzard towards the other guy. Out of a wavedash you can have Popo d-smash while Nana dashes in and grabs, or you can quickly input another smash to cover Popo if he whiffs.
This doesn't work with f-smash, sadly. On the other hand, trying to make f-smash work, I found a different one.
As you probably know, there's a small window during the start up of your dash where you will move, but if you hit A or the c-stick you will smash. This is in there so there's a timing window for your forward-smash when using the joystick. If you turn and f-smash during the turn, Nana will input her c-stick smash during the start of her dash and she'll just smash with you. So the above de-sync isn't going to work with f-smash.
However, if you input the smash a little late for Popo, Nana will still do her standing smash while you dash away. So in short, dash one direction, then almost immediately after dashing, f-smash with the c-stick. This gets you to run while Nana just smashes. So you can make Nana throw out an f-smash while you get out of harm's way, then wavedash back in to take them by surprise!
These are pretty neato, IMO. The timing is pretty strict but I really like them; they're fast and seamless so the odds of an opponent noticing them happening during the flow of a match is low, so it gives you amazing opportunities to bait and punish.
(Also, happy 23rd birthday to me! I'm really old)
You can CC the hell out of Marth's forward+b. It's wonderful. I dunno about the later hits because I just focus on reading the first one, CC'ing and then pulling up my shield and grabbing when I have the chance.
Edit: Ohhhhhh **** son, I just found something REALLY interesting. This is practically the holy-grail of de-syncs since you can perform it out of a sync'ed wavedash.
1) Face backwards.
2) Smash the joystick like you were going to dash, but during the turn around animation, c-stick up or down.
With the right timing, Nana will dash in the direction you turned while Popo sits there smashing. Why is this awesome?
Again, you can perform it from any sync'ed and grounded position. Standing still you can throw out a smash then have Nana do a jumping blizzard towards the other guy. Out of a wavedash you can have Popo d-smash while Nana dashes in and grabs, or you can quickly input another smash to cover Popo if he whiffs.
This doesn't work with f-smash, sadly. On the other hand, trying to make f-smash work, I found a different one.
As you probably know, there's a small window during the start up of your dash where you will move, but if you hit A or the c-stick you will smash. This is in there so there's a timing window for your forward-smash when using the joystick. If you turn and f-smash during the turn, Nana will input her c-stick smash during the start of her dash and she'll just smash with you. So the above de-sync isn't going to work with f-smash.
However, if you input the smash a little late for Popo, Nana will still do her standing smash while you dash away. So in short, dash one direction, then almost immediately after dashing, f-smash with the c-stick. This gets you to run while Nana just smashes. So you can make Nana throw out an f-smash while you get out of harm's way, then wavedash back in to take them by surprise!
These are pretty neato, IMO. The timing is pretty strict but I really like them; they're fast and seamless so the odds of an opponent noticing them happening during the flow of a match is low, so it gives you amazing opportunities to bait and punish.
(Also, happy 23rd birthday to me! I'm really old
)
Binx
Smash Master
He was asking about after being hit with the first hit which is why I didn't list any of those options I figure hes talking about being in the air already in which case you should try and di out of the forward b's or try and DI the usual utilt that follows being popped up near a marth, correctly DI for the utilt is usually in as well which is why I like it.
Oh. Nevermind, I'm silly.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Happy birthday Wobbles.
I've been advocating the dash/f-smash thing for a while, but I didn't know about the first one. I like approaching with wd -> dash backwards ->nana f-smash sometimes because it lets you fake an approach while still throwing out a hitbox, and puts you in a good position to punish what your opponent does afterward.
What do you do when Marth uses side+b and d-tilt interchangeably? If the Marth usually d-tilts when I wd towards them, or if they always d-tilt after hitting my shield, I can predict it and sh f-air. But if I jump in anticipation of d-tilt, and they side+b instead, I'm in a really bad position.
Approaching in bursts with wd f-smash or shield can sometimes beat either, but it takes really specific spacing and a lot of space to move around in. I've also thought of overusing cc or f-air until it deters them from one option, and then switching to the other. Is there anything more reliable that will work against patient/reaction-based Marths?
I've been advocating the dash/f-smash thing for a while, but I didn't know about the first one. I like approaching with wd -> dash backwards ->nana f-smash sometimes because it lets you fake an approach while still throwing out a hitbox, and puts you in a good position to punish what your opponent does afterward.
What do you do when Marth uses side+b and d-tilt interchangeably? If the Marth usually d-tilts when I wd towards them, or if they always d-tilt after hitting my shield, I can predict it and sh f-air. But if I jump in anticipation of d-tilt, and they side+b instead, I'm in a really bad position.
Approaching in bursts with wd f-smash or shield can sometimes beat either, but it takes really specific spacing and a lot of space to move around in. I've also thought of overusing cc or f-air until it deters them from one option, and then switching to the other. Is there anything more reliable that will work against patient/reaction-based Marths?
Most of the time Marth uses a quick dash in order to better space his forward+b; however, d-tilt usually comes out right after he lands, or after a wavedash. If you can get a feel for when Marth wants to do one of those things, then you usually know what's coming afterwards.
One of the nice things about CC'ing forward+b is you can do it out of your jab, so if you're chasing him when he dashes and you jab, you can CC at the same time. Also, even if you guess wrong and he winds up tilting you, you'll just end up sliding really far back and reset the situation with a little more damage. It'll add up so you have to be careful, but if you get clipped once or twice here and there it's not a big deal.
I'm also a fan of hopping in with an air dodge, because if you time it well then you'll get in past most of Marth's options. If he hits Nana and it lags the move, at least you end up deep in where you only get the deep, sour spot and you're still closed in on him. But it's a tricky little tactic, one I'm not very good at yet. I forget to practice it
One of the nice things about CC'ing forward+b is you can do it out of your jab, so if you're chasing him when he dashes and you jab, you can CC at the same time. Also, even if you guess wrong and he winds up tilting you, you'll just end up sliding really far back and reset the situation with a little more damage. It'll add up so you have to be careful, but if you get clipped once or twice here and there it's not a big deal.
I'm also a fan of hopping in with an air dodge, because if you time it well then you'll get in past most of Marth's options. If he hits Nana and it lags the move, at least you end up deep in where you only get the deep, sour spot and you're still closed in on him. But it's a tricky little tactic, one I'm not very good at yet. I forget to practice it
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Alright, I'll try all of those things. Sometimes I don't think far enough ahead and forget to look for visual cues like that.
Heh, you'd be amazed how many people cement long "routines" into their fingers in order to do a move; some people are habituated to do things like dash forward, then back, then wavedash into a forward smash. One of the best ways to become unpredictable is to just get rid of them and try thinking of as many ways to lead into a single move as possible, or ways to make two approaches indistinguishable. That's why I like this turning smash de-sync; it is really impossible to tell until after the fact that Nana won't be d-smashing with Popo, so if I can get it to work I think I'm going to bait a LOT of punishes that I can hit with a blizzard or another smash.
I think it'll work wonders against Captain Falcon, truthfully. That jumping blizzard should catch him right out of the short hop, and off the whiffed smash I think most Falcons will feel confident going for a stomp, a knee, or shield pressure. Can't wait to try it out! It would be pretty cool to do to Puff too, d-smash her shield then up-smash her when she jumps out to punish.
I think it'll work wonders against Captain Falcon, truthfully. That jumping blizzard should catch him right out of the short hop, and off the whiffed smash I think most Falcons will feel confident going for a stomp, a knee, or shield pressure. Can't wait to try it out! It would be pretty cool to do to Puff too, d-smash her shield then up-smash her when she jumps out to punish.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
cool desynch.. ill try it out later
happy bday wobbles
happy bday wobbles
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Rob is the best Ice Climbers.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Happy birthday, Wobbles. You're the best.
Vts
Smash Champion
happy b-day as a gift i got my house bug sprayed so no spiders will attack you ever again.
unless i command them to VTS
Victory Taming Spiders duh :D
unless i command them to VTS
Victory Taming Spiders duh :D
Binx
Smash Master
Happy birthday rob
I felt really old on my 23rd birthday =( Its not so bad though.
I felt really old on my 23rd birthday =( Its not so bad though.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
So I was watching Fly and I had a thought...
You know how we blizzard when someone is on the edge and they (intelligently) just wait on the edge until blizzard is over?
I wonder if we are missing an chance to be Fsmashing them on the ledge?
I am going to try this out. Blizzard last longer than ledge invincibility right?
Just thinking out loud...
You know how we blizzard when someone is on the edge and they (intelligently) just wait on the edge until blizzard is over?
I wonder if we are missing an chance to be Fsmashing them on the ledge?
I am going to try this out. Blizzard last longer than ledge invincibility right?
Just thinking out loud...
Binx
Smash Master
they could roll up if you get that close, it might work once though
i think they would just hit you with the invincibility they do have if you got close, otherwise I think the timing is to strict, maybe you could start the fsmash then have nana cc into a dsmash to counter their ledge hop attack.
oh yeah and they could drop and sweetspot with a double jump to refresh invincibility and dodge the smash and then counter attack.
i think they would just hit you with the invincibility they do have if you got close, otherwise I think the timing is to strict, maybe you could start the fsmash then have nana cc into a dsmash to counter their ledge hop attack.
oh yeah and they could drop and sweetspot with a double jump to refresh invincibility and dodge the smash and then counter attack.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I like to pressure edge campers with ice blocks if they don't immediately ledgehop into my blizzard. ^_^
I have always wanted to experiment with charging a smash inside a full light-shield, then use the shield stun to time it so I always get the smash to at least trade. I never remember to try it.
Wouldn't it be fun to get a Falco to ledge hop double laser straight onto a fully charged f-smash and lose his jump while fastfalling at 40 percent? I think it'd be neato.
Wouldn't it be fun to get a Falco to ledge hop double laser straight onto a fully charged f-smash and lose his jump while fastfalling at 40 percent? I think it'd be neato.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
That sounds awesome. I bet you could also use the one shield to protect both ICs from projectiles (I think you're already suggesting this, but I'm not positive based on the way you worded your post); e.g. if a Falco is approaching you with SHL, you could have Nana charge fsmash while Popo has a large shield (or vice versa); the laser would hit the shield while the IC charging the smash can continue to charge it and release it whenever.
The above sort of thing is vaguely reminiscent of the main way I use the light-shield trick; rather than using it to mess up shield pressure (which I really should do more often anyways), I mostly use it to make the opponent grab Nana instead of Popo since her shield is way larger.
btw, walk forward -> ftilt is my favorite way of beating ledge hop double lasers. It requires no set-up and always works as long as you have Nana.
The above sort of thing is vaguely reminiscent of the main way I use the light-shield trick; rather than using it to mess up shield pressure (which I really should do more often anyways), I mostly use it to make the opponent grab Nana instead of Popo since her shield is way larger.
btw, walk forward -> ftilt is my favorite way of beating ledge hop double lasers. It requires no set-up and always works as long as you have Nana.
Yeah, projectiles, aerials, anything really.
I want to make a list of all the silly situational IC stuff I want to test and master, and then find someone willing to sit down and let me do it. It makes me sad that this game might not last long enough to explore it all and find tournaments to use it in
I want to make a list of all the silly situational IC stuff I want to test and master, and then find someone willing to sit down and let me do it. It makes me sad that this game might not last long enough to explore it all and find tournaments to use it in
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I really don't know how long I can expect Melee to last, but I think it'll still be around for quite a while. At least in Socal, we still get newcomers somewhat regularly and I know some of the regulars at tourneys, myself included, have no intention of quitting as long as other people keep playing.
Binx
Smash Master
I'm pretty confident in the future of melee, there are still people that play SF2 for gods sake.
I am going to start trying out all of your guys' stuff.
I think these last few posts really embodied alot of the community. Wobbles coming up with crazy stuff, Fly expanding on it, and Choknater coming up with a super simple but possibly super effective technique.
Good stuff guys.
I think these last few posts really embodied alot of the community. Wobbles coming up with crazy stuff, Fly expanding on it, and Choknater coming up with a super simple but possibly super effective technique.
Good stuff guys.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
fly and wobbs are soooo creative and know a lot more about ics than me
i just think i have a cool play style lol
i hope i make it far at gsg
i just think i have a cool play style lol
i hope i make it far at gsg
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Wait what was the Chok Tech?
Also in NorCal we get new players all the time and our community is still going really strong, it is bigger than brawl.
Also in NorCal we get new players all the time and our community is still going really strong, it is bigger than brawl.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I almost feel sorry for Norcal's Brawl scene sometimes.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I just played a bunch today. Slowly, steadily, getting better at the Ganon matchup ...
Watching Wobbles vs Iori was pretty helpful.
Watching Wobbles vs Iori was pretty helpful.
Yeah man. The advice I got from RockCrock about ICs vs. Ganon was "you down-smash too much, and I jump over it." I extrapolated that into "stop throwing out hits just because you want them to connect, and pay more attention to where Ganon is moving." That's actually why I use otherwise dumb **** like wavedash -> up-smash as an approach. I figure Ganon wants to jump and it'll do hefty damage and take away some of his control. The only way for him to avoid that is by retreating with his aerial and that means that if he connects, I suffer less.
But yeah, if you can read the other guy's jumps, double jumps and air movement, then you've got most of the matchup down. After that it's just put your hammer where he wants to go.
But yeah, if you can read the other guy's jumps, double jumps and air movement, then you've got most of the matchup down. After that it's just put your hammer where he wants to go.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
so links to wobbles vids....
Vids eh.
Find me fighting Darkrain A LOT at http://www.youtube.com/user/flippityfloppity . Also see me fighting Broly, a pretty **** good Marth from TX.
Then here we have vids from POE3: http://www.youtube.com/user/Reneblade . Me vs. Iori as Ganon (skip my crappy Sheik please), me vs. Kels' Fox, and then me vs. Zhu playing Fox/Falco.
Find me fighting Darkrain A LOT at http://www.youtube.com/user/flippityfloppity . Also see me fighting Broly, a pretty **** good Marth from TX.
Then here we have vids from POE3: http://www.youtube.com/user/Reneblade . Me vs. Iori as Ganon (skip my crappy Sheik please), me vs. Kels' Fox, and then me vs. Zhu playing Fox/Falco.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
So I have two ideas floating around...
I mentioned the first thing before, but nobody commented on it so I'm not sure what they think. During neutral-b, the hammer hitbox comes out 2 frames before the actual ice block, so it's possible to hit somebody with the hammer and then cancel the knockback with the ice. The first time I tested this I was able to chaingrab with it pretty consistently, but since then my wii broke and I haven't been able to replicate it at all.
I think that ideally, if you time ice block so that the hammer hits them immediately as they are released from the throw, they would be stunned in place (as opposed to d-air, which knocks them away) long enough for a regrab. I'm not sure how the mechanics of overlapping moves work, though; either the ice block completely cancels out hitstun and hitlag from the hammer, or the stun carries over but the knockback is canceled. Potential issues include how far the opponent can travel with ASDI (because they are being hit by two consecutive hitboxes), whether this is too difficult to use realistically, and whether the stun cancels or not.
The second idea is u-tilt. In the past I always disregarded u-tilt grab combos as useless because I thought that it was too easy to escape with SDI. In version 1.0/1.1, however, it's impossible to SDI a non-fresh u-tilt, and it could potentially make for a legitimate chaingrab on fastfallers. It has less vertical knockback than u-air, so it should last longer; the only issue is whether it's possible to react to DI away/in, and how effective SDI on the final hit is.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Ice block chain grab would be pretty legit, Kyu.
Right now, I feel like I need better grab combos on floaties. I've mentioned that dthrow -> Nana SH nair -> Popo regrab works at low percents. You can even dthrow -> Nana fair -> regrab Jiggs before she hits the ground.
Just sort of musing - an improbable, but cool, grab combo on floaties: dthrow -> Nana fair -> Popo charged fsmash -> Nana regrab?? Then you could follow up Nana's throw, depending on which she uses.
Obviously they could tech, but that would depend on them knowing you were going to have Nana meteor.
Right now, I feel like I need better grab combos on floaties. I've mentioned that dthrow -> Nana SH nair -> Popo regrab works at low percents. You can even dthrow -> Nana fair -> regrab Jiggs before she hits the ground.
Just sort of musing - an improbable, but cool, grab combo on floaties: dthrow -> Nana fair -> Popo charged fsmash -> Nana regrab?? Then you could follow up Nana's throw, depending on which she uses.
Obviously they could tech, but that would depend on them knowing you were going to have Nana meteor.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
That could work if they don't DI, but if they miss the tech it might be better to d-tilt or jab reset -> grab with Popo, since Nana's grab isn't very reliable. I think the best grab combos against floaties would involve stealing their second jump and hitting them with a million u-airs.
One decent way to accomplish this is b-throw -> u-air. You basically have to guess whether they'll jump or not (if they DI up it's more likely they will), and if they do you can hit them out of their second jump with sh or fj u-air. Another way is d-throw -> d-air -> sh u-air, because DI up + jumping out is the most common way for floaties to escape d-throw d-air.
My favorite grab combo on semi-floaties (like I've said in the past) is d-throw -> reverse d-air -> react accordingly. It can sometimes be hard to tell, but if they are in grab range you can turn around and grab, and if not you can u-tilt or sh u-air. This is really good because it relies less on random guessing/prediction.
The d-throw -> f-air -> run forward/backward d-smash techchase that I talked about before should work against anyone, but usually launching them into the air will lead to more damage anyway. This combo might be useful against Luigi or Jigglypuff or someone you really can't do anything else against.
One decent way to accomplish this is b-throw -> u-air. You basically have to guess whether they'll jump or not (if they DI up it's more likely they will), and if they do you can hit them out of their second jump with sh or fj u-air. Another way is d-throw -> d-air -> sh u-air, because DI up + jumping out is the most common way for floaties to escape d-throw d-air.
My favorite grab combo on semi-floaties (like I've said in the past) is d-throw -> reverse d-air -> react accordingly. It can sometimes be hard to tell, but if they are in grab range you can turn around and grab, and if not you can u-tilt or sh u-air. This is really good because it relies less on random guessing/prediction.
The d-throw -> f-air -> run forward/backward d-smash techchase that I talked about before should work against anyone, but usually launching them into the air will lead to more damage anyway. This combo might be useful against Luigi or Jigglypuff or someone you really can't do anything else against.
I posted this a couple months ago and you commented on it -__-
I determined it to be realistically impossible. Nana just stops doing what you want halfway through.
As far as the Iceblock hammer cancel thing, I have done the hammer>iceblock instant knockback cancel before in a match, as far as it's actual application...thats iffy, but I'll try it out.
As far as this utilt stuff...do you guys go "version hunting" so you play on the version you like? Otherwise wouldnt we be setting ourselves up for bad habits that won't work on half of the setups?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
My memory is bad. :embarrass