Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Kyu Puff]

It takes two seconds to figure out what version of the game you're playing; you just have to know you're limitations and abuse u-tilt/blizzard related things when they're available. If it's a smaller tournament, sometimes I find a set-up I like and try to take my opponent there if it's open.

 

[choknater]

i had a lot of fun and got a lot better at good **** german

i can keep up with most of the pros except m2k lol

fox in general is a really hard character to play against

ic dittos are too good lol, played pokemon master irl, boback and fly, too good ggs all

i 2-1 boback in tourny and i only beat fly like twice out of the 8 or so games we played. hes too good

i gotta get better :D

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Choknaterz <3


Fly and Chok were deff stylin' on fools.

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

I learned I'm really patient and not very aggressive at GSG

Also, Dash Attack -> U-Tilt -> Grab is my new favorite approach

 

[Vts]

i learned wobbles is bad, its just everyone else is much worse :D

worst part is he will agree with me on this.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

GSG was fun. I'm mostly content with how I played with a couple exceptions. In my set with Lucky, I got a little too impatient at the end of the second round and he capitalized on that, and my impatience unfortunately carried over into the third round. A similar thing happened in a MM with Darrel. On the bright side, this should be an easy problem to fix, and I did beat a lot of good players in tourney. I also beat Hax 3-1 in a MM.

Andre, it was fun playing you. I was impressed with how quickly you got the hang of ICs dittos.

 

[Facepalm]

Too bad i didn't goto GSG (not like I would even get past pools) but i will most likely be going to CGC if any other IC players will be there. Time for more training in the mountains!

 

[Wobbles]

There ought to be some videos from FAP for you gentlemen to watch.

Watch in excitement as:

--I almost lose to Iori's Kirby on Yoshi's and his Peach on Rainbow Cruise!
--Pikachad camps me so hard with Fox I contract a virulent disease
--I manage to win a 7 minutes 14 second match on Rainbow against him
--Wobbles decides it's a good idea to counterpick Pokemon against a space animal and it actually turns out okay
--He plays Doc in draft crews and can't do anything.

 

[choknater]

hehe fly its always fun to play dittos against great players cuz i can simply copy my opponent

freals yeah that was fun though. i really did learn from you, and from watching. playing you is fun. you are mostly quite reserved, but you also have a very unpredictable style with good mixups.

i really feed off momentum, but im learning what it takes to read my opponent. i also think i need to add a new element to my game... moving without wavedashing lol. i feel like i misspace a lot of potential punishments cuz i could've simply walked or ran toward my opponent

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I learned a lot from watching both of you and I also invented a couple tricks I am excited to use on some unsuspecting fools soon.

Quad Dairs anyone? hehe ^_-

 

[choknater]

did you watch our dittoz? haha

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

No I didnot.

I think that Edge Canceled Dair into moar Dairs is rapesz

 

[Binx]

No I didnot.

I think that Edge Canceled Dair into moar Dairs is rapesz

how would you actually impliment this?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

it is a lot of hit boxes it catches people off gaurd try it.

its really easy.

and you can often land a grab off the second second dairs.


EDIT

I just got done smashing with my friends Samus, and it really makes me want to kill myself that I can not beat it. I can 3 stock him with Puff but when I am Icy's I can rarely beat his Samus, he plays sooo gay and so smart and just camps me. He knows how to approach me when I camp back ( he is fully aware of how bad Ice Blocks suck).

Dsmash out ranges everything on the ground and he crouch cancels anything that is not a smash (jabs tilts).

It makes me hate my life that one Dsmash and then Nana or even worse Popo too are both dead.

Sigh.

Ugh.

And then random Missle kill Nana and gimp me.

Ugh waaah cry cry cry.


All day he just wave dash back into Tilts or smashes or he will just charge his Charge Shot.

Ughh ffffffff!~~~

 

[choknater]

stay close!

but dont get baited into dsmash by the edge :D

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Samus' tilts and jabs beat our stuff plus here punishes are really hard and really easy.

I have been working on this match up for awhile.

Oh well Ill keep at it tomorrow.

 

[choknater]

her tilts and jabs dont beat shield :D

in fact samus suxxxxx against shields

 

[Nintendude]

I went to a smashfest yesterday and messed around with some different tactics. The first was excessively spamming f-tilt and jab against spacies. It actually confused the hell out of people, especially near the edge. It also managed to knock them down a lot and I believe the best way to beat up on spacies isn't necessary to grab them, but rather to just get them on the ground. It's easier than grabbing, there's more reliable ways to do it, and it often leads to grabs anyway.

One thing that happened a bunch of times was they'd nair right through my f-tilt. F-tilt can be angled upwards right? Would that stop this from happening?

Lastly, I tried playing very aggressively vs. Falco. In particular when I felt I had any sort of momentum and was near him, I'd just charge with a short-hop nair in his face. It seems like it has the potential to be a good approach option because it's like wd f-smash but faster (and less range/priority). If he lasers then he hits Popo and Nana's nair gets through. If the Falco is foolish and is trying to approach you with his back to the edge, his fastfalled laser attempt results in him DIing the nair terribly. It's also just a good way to get him on the ground. The one issue with this is if he gets a nair out in time but I was able to trade pretty often. Of course, Falco can get around this by just shielding or retreating but I feel like Falcos don't expect an ICs to just charge in like that.

I also realized that over half the time I get hit vs. Fox, it's because I chased him too far in the air and then my landing lag got punished (or I just got baired while in the air). Gotta work on that one. I feel like rather than chasing Fox into the air, I should just watch for where he's going and try to punish the landing instead.

Another random thought - I've noticed that all spacies seem to have some sort of "programmed" attempted chaingrab escape. It's usually either to spot-dodge or roll. If you down-throw dair chaingrab someone and he gets out, pay attention to HOW he got out. Then the next time, just let him escape and punish his roll or spot-dodge! If you do this twice, he may he scared to try his usual breakout method and then perhaps you can start to actually d-throw dair without him escaping.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Angled-up ftilt beats both spacies' shffl'd nair approaches.

At low percentages, Falco can CC your nair into a shine. Nair can be used to approach through lasers pretty well, as you said, although I think ICs generally have better options; I mainly approach Falco with moves that will either KO him or lead directly to a grab.

 

[PEEF!]

Can sh Fair be used instead of Nair? Seems like it would offer more punishment, better opprotunity for followup, and overall more ****...

I have also found that vFtilt is a fantastic spacie edgeguard. It is a much safer option than ledgehogging when the spacie tries to sweetspot from up high. It also works great against side-B and upb sweetspot attempts.

Grab is also an amazing edgeguard vs sidebs and upbs directed at your face, and upbs that don't sweetspot. It is especially good when a fox is upbing from way below the stage, hoping for a tech. Just put your grab hitbox distance imbetween you and the edge, and grab whenever he comes up hoping for that tech.

 

[inditled]

when i try doing the edge chaingrab sometimes nana throws right away and sometimes she headbutts a few times before and it messes up my regrab with popo >.> is there any way to control nana headbutting when she grabs or is it completly random

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's random.

I think you can keep the opponent in Nana's grab if she decides to do headbutts by doing ftilts or dtilts with Popo between the headbutts; it would essentially be a short-term inverted wobble. I've never tried it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[Binx]

Can sh Fair be used instead of Nair? Seems like it would offer more punishment, better opprotunity for followup, and overall more ****...

I have also found that vFtilt is a fantastic spacie edgeguard. It is a much safer option than ledgehogging when the spacie tries to sweetspot from up high. It also works great against side-B and upb sweetspot attempts.

Grab is also an amazing edgeguard vs sidebs and upbs directed at your face, and upbs that don't sweetspot. It is especially good when a fox is upbing from way below the stage, hoping for a tech. Just put your grab hitbox distance imbetween you and the edge, and grab whenever he comes up hoping for that tech.

Fair is too slow.

I like edgehogging if I think they will go for the ledge from above, guaranteed KOs ftw. Ftilt is safer if your not pretty sure what they will do, but if you react quickly enough to them not going towards the ledge edgehogging isn't that dangerous.

Against side b's against my face I try spot dodge followup but good players these days edge cancel or shorten it often or go really deep on the field and its tough to followup, Up B to the face, well I usually dont see those but when I used to I would mostly try to fsmash those grab has a higher pay off but the timing is unforgiving imo so I never really go for it. When Foxes go low I like to edgehog too even if they can make the stage, you can often ledge hop a dair to mess with them or roll if they were riding the ledge but aren't gonna go above the stage, once again requiring solid prediction.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nair can be used to approach through lasers pretty well, as you said, although I think ICs generally have better options; I mainly approach Falco with moves that will either KO him or lead directly to a grab.

Nobody thinks to CC vs ICs, and I find nair can lead to grabs pretty well. At low percents, nair outright combos into grab. At slightly higher percents, it'll score a knockdown; they likely won't tech, and you can jab reset -> grab for much the same effect.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Nair can lead to grabs if people don't CC, but it's blatantly false to say that nobody CCs against ICs. Many good Falcos use CC shine a lot at low percentages.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm just talking from experience. MD/VA doesn't have many good Falcos.

On the whole, though, I feel like if you condition people to expect moves that can't or shouldn't be CCed, they tend to not CC at the times when it would actually work.

 

[PEEF!]

So I found this desync by accident, it is probably known, but I have found some legit applications.

Basically, when I want a little space, I will just dash backwards, jump, then press in the direction I was originally facing, let go, then press b, all quickly. The result is synced SH iceblocks forwards, while I am fading backwards. Well, if you switch the jump and the pressing of the direction you were facing, and it resulted in popo just doing a dd and nana doing a SH iceblock.

This can also be used with blizzard. Dash back, dash forwards and right as you do that, jump and downB. The timing seems trickier, but the result is a beautiful little blizzard desync without any roll, spotdodge, or sheild, and it is faster, requires less ground, and is telegraphed even less than the dd blizzard.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yep, that's a variation of the pivot desynch. You can't jump during the frame you turn around, so if you pivot and input jump on that frame, only Nana will jump (because she doesn't know how to pivot or something). It can be pretty useful if you get it down consistently because it's probably one of the fastest ways to desynch. Another thing you can do is pivot -> wavedash with Nana, but I've never found any applications for that.

 

[PEEF!]

Yep, that's a variation of the pivot desynch. You can't jump during the frame you turn around, so if you pivot and input jump on that frame, only Nana will jump (because she doesn't know how to pivot or something). It can be pretty useful if you get it down consistently because it's probably one of the fastest ways to desynch. Another thing you can do is pivot -> wavedash with Nana, but I've never found any applications for that.

There is some weird stuff about this desync. First of all, I think it is 100% impossible to desync a nana nair without popo dash attacking or jabbing.

The WD version doesnt seem to be possible without Popo spotdodging.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Since after Nana jumps you can either pivot or run, hitting A makes Popo either jab or dash attack. If you run you can use the c-stick to do other aerials with Nana (c-stick input doesn't do anything if you're running).

As for the wavedashing thing, you should be able to avoid spotdodging if you keep holding forward/down after the pivot. There's no way avoid making Popo shield though.

I finally got melee working again and I'm messing around with something funny: d-throw -> reverse ice block. Nana will turn around, and her hammer hitbox will miss, but the ice block always goes in the direction Popo is facing. You can ice block so that the other player doesn't move anywhere, and you don't even have to run forward to grab. Ice block also has less hitlag than most moves, so it should be harder to sdi. My only concern is that it probably doesn't have enough hitstun to keep them in stun until you grab, and they might be able to escape by randomly mashing buttons. It might work though since you don't have to run forward to regrab, like you do in most chaingrabs.

 

[PEEF!]

Since after Nana jumps you can either pivot or run, hitting A makes Popo either jab or dash attack. If you run you can use the c-stick to do other aerials with Nana (c-stick input doesn't do anything if you're running).

As for the wavedashing thing, you should be able to avoid spotdodging if you keep holding forward/down after the pivot. There's no way avoid making Popo shield though.

I finally got melee working again and I'm messing around with something funny: d-throw -> reverse ice block. Nana will turn around, and her hammer hitbox will miss, but the ice block always goes in the direction Popo is facing. You can ice block so that the other player doesn't move anywhere, and you don't even have to run forward to grab. Ice block also has less hitlag than most moves, so it should be harder to sdi. My only concern is that it probably doesn't have enough hitstun to keep them in stun until you grab, and they might be able to escape by randomly mashing buttons. It might work though since you don't have to run forward to regrab, like you do in most chaingrabs.

PEEF Status: Testing random bullcrap above.

Holy sh*t dthrow reverse iceblock is amazing.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

You could also nair with Z and have Popo grab, although I don't know why anybody would ever want to do that.

Regarding ice block CGs, there was something similar to that I wanted to test a while ago, but couldn't get to work as well as I wanted it to. The idea was to dthrow and have Nana shoot an ice block under the opponent without the hammer hitting; at the time, I tried to accomplish this with standing ice blocks, but I think short hop backwards -> ice block would also work. If the opponent DIs in, the ice block passes under them and you grab again. If the opponent DIs away, they land on the ice block and you dash grab during the hitlag. I don't recall why exactly I couldn't get it to work; it might just not work or I might not have been doing it properly.

 

[PEEF!]

Fly, I tried that with Falcon just now, and I don't think there is any way it can work. There are plenty of reasons, but I just don't think it will.

However, have you tried this reverse iceblock thing? Works great on Falcon. Don't know how it works out framewise, but it will be perfect for messing up the opponents SDI timing when they are good at getting out of Dthrow dair.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Oh, I was trying the thing I just mentioned on Fox. I'm assuming it probably wouldn't work on him either for similarly nebulous reasons, but I figure it's worth trying.

I'll try the ice block thing on Falcon the next time I play Melee.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Edit -- Some things about d-throw -> reverse ice block:

* It's character-dependent because weight modifies the length of d-throw. Popo takes longer to recover against heavier characters after releasing them, which is why you can't d-throw cg characters like Link/Ganon for very long.

* Jigglypuff is too light. As far as I can tell, you would need to start the ice block before you actually d-throw her, which I don't think is possible because when you input back for the reverse ice block Popo will b-throw instead. The same goes for Pichu, and maybe some other characters.

* Ice block does not keep them in stun the entire time. I don't know the exact number, but I think it has ~8 hitstun. After a character is released from d-throw, Popo can't recover for 14 frames (this is the base number; it's higher for heavier characters and lower for lighter characters), and grab takes another 7 frames. If you hit them with ice block ~13 frames after they're released, you might be able to keep them in stun the whole time, but then DI could probably take them out of your standing grab range. We probably could use some Magus insight here because I don't know if this would be a legitimate chaingrab on any character, but I think it will work best against lighter characters like space animals.

* F-throw is not weight-dependent, but it also takes Popo longer to recover from the throw, and if you f-throw -> reverse ice block or f-throw -> ice block (so that both the hammer and the ice block hit) you will always have to dash grab. If the ice block somehow doesn't cancel out the hitstun from the hammer, it might be better against heavier characters.

 

[Smasher89]

Not too familiar with NTSC, when shiek gets a grab and dthrows, is there any way to escape it or is the hit allways guarantied so it works like the same way of escaping grabcombos as against CF?

 

[MacD]

if sheik dthrows you in NTSC

you are screwed, you can DI and pray if you like

 

[Fly_Amanita]

If you're just Sopo, you get hit. If you have Nana with you and she dthrows Popo, you can shield-grab the dthrow with Nana to protect yourself. If she dthrows Nana, you can do whatever the hell you want.

 

[Smasher89]

delete this post

 

[Smasher89]

OK then I know it's only conditioning that can make me get out, as long as theres no max% where its possible to dodge?jump out of it (i guess thats far above 200% so it won't matter).

Don't see anyone else registered IC player at the APEX list .