General Discussion & Character Rankings

[luke_atyeo]

I gave you guys notice months ago, dont blame me if you didnt pay attention

 

[Vyse]

I'll put you on notice.

BECAUSE THE THIRD EDITION OF THE BBR RULESET IS OUT.
POKEMON STADIUM 2 *****ES.

 

[Scabe]

Oh wow, so many stages I haven't played on like Luigi's mansion.

 

[tedeth]

Wow. What a stage list. Crazy stuff.

Yeah lol Luigi's mansion wtf?

Oh and Port Town say whaaaaaat?

EDIT: Also distant planet is back. The ****'s up with that?

 

[Zero]

The new stage list is... interesting to say the least.

Port townnnnnn

 

[Dekar289]

ROFL items soon

 

[tedeth]

Items on high. New Pork City only..

 

[C~Dog]

So are we going to make an Aus stagelist with no gay stages then?

 

[Zero]

BOOST list is basically that already. With a superior suicide and LGL (please don't change these to the standard Shaya)

 

[tedeth]

Well, I would suggest something like that, but it would be like, detrimental to my health..

I'm totally exhausted from telling people they're dumb about ONE stage, let alone a whole stage list.

 

[Vyse]

Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0
Super Smash Brothers: Brawl

This is the official rule set version 3.0 of the Smash Back Room: Brawl (BBR). The rules at any particular tournament are always at the discretion of the tournament organizer, but we recommend this rule set as a base guideline for all tournament organizers to use.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---​

General rules:

3 Stock
8 minute timer
Items are set to "off" and "none"

• If the timer runs out, the victor is determined first by stock and then by percentage.
  
  
• Resolving Ties: If percents are the same or both players die simultaneously, there will be a 1 stock, 3 minute, same characters, same stage rematch.
  
  
• All sets with the exception of winner's finals, loser's finals, and the championship are best of 3 matches (best of 5 and above should be played out for any "finals" matches)
  
  
• In the event of a dispute, controller ports will be selected by Rock-Paper-Scissors.
  
  
• You are responsible for your own controller and name tag. Any malfunctions or errors that occur are your responsibility, so bring an extra controller if possible and always check to make sure you're using the correct settings BEFORE a match is played. If a match is to be restarted due to controller functions, it must be agreed upon by both parties.
  
  
• Extending Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape by leaving the ground and returning to it while invisible is banned. (For example, flicking the C-Stick up while holding down on the control stick during the move will cause this to happen.)
  
  
• Stalling is banned.
  Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while using an infinite to run out the timer rather than to score a KO is. As such, any infinite chain-grabs, locks, etc. cannot exceed 300%.
  
  
• Any action which prevents the game from continuing (i.e. by causing the game to crash or causing all characters to freeze indefinitely) is banned. If the Tournament Organizer or a judge can conclusively determine the player responsible for the failure, that player loses the interrupted game. Players are expected to know their characters and prevent this from happening.
  
  
• Some interactions (for example, a throw with a wind attack) can cause one character to become frozen until being hit. If this happens, the free character is expected to capitalize on this in a timely manner; a failure to do so is stalling.

Set format (In Order of Procedure):

1. Opponents make their character select screen choices for the first match. *

2. Opponents start the stage striking procedure.

The stage striking order changes depending on the number of stages allowed. When reading this order, “1” is player 1 and “2” is player 2. The optimal striking orders are as follows:

• 3 Stages: 2-1
• 5 Stages: 1-2-2-1
• 7 Stages: 1-1-2-2-2-1
• 9 Stages: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-1

3. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for counterpicks of the set.

4. The first game is played, using the stage chosen during step 2.

5. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Starter Stage List or the Counter Stage List. **

6. The winner of the previous match chooses their character.

7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character.

8. Repeat steps 5-7 for all proceeding matches.

*Double blind character selection may be called for the first match. Also, the choices made here include the character's color and whether the player will start as Samus or Zero Suit Samus, as Zelda or Sheik, or as a particular Pokemon for Pokemon Trainer.

**No player may choose a stage they have already won on in that set unless agreed upon by both players.​

Additional rules for Doubles play:

Team Attack must be set to ON.
Sharing stocks is allowed.

The controller ports will be determined in a 1221 fashion; whoever wins the RPS will choose first, then the opposing team will get their ports, and then the teammate of the RPS winner will get the last port.

If the clock expires in a team match and the total number of stocks of each team is equal, use the sum of the final percentage of players on each team as the tiebreaker; whichever team has a lower sum wins. (A player who has been eliminated has no stocks and 0%).

In team play, causing both characters of a team to become frozen (i.e. by interrupting a throw with a wind attack) is to be treated the same way as freezing the opponent in singles. Leaving only one of your opponent's characters frozen is legal since the teammate can work to undo the freeze.​

Optional Rules:

• Port slob picks: On a player's counterpick, that player may opt to redo the port selection process with that player or team picking their port first.
  
  
• The Mages DQ rule: After a match has been called, if a player is 2 minutes late he will receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, he will be given a loss for the first game of the set. After 6 minutes, he will be given a loss of the entire set.
  
  
• Color Blind Rule: In team games, it may be requested that certain characters be assigned a specific team color in order to prevent any unnecessary confusion. For instance, Sonic, Lucario, or Falco may be requested to be assigned the blue team color.

Recommended Stage List:

The below Starter/Counter list has a list of three stages, followed by three sections of two stages each. In order to use this, start with the top three stages in the list, and adjust the starter list between 3 and 9 stages by going down the list and adding the next two stages until the desired number of stages is reached. Keep in mind that "Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium" is a correct use of this, but "Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Final Destination" is not. Go down the list; do not mix and match. Any remaining stages not used in the Starter list will be moved to the tournament's Counter list.

The Counterpick list is a list of stages that should be universally allowed as legal Counterpick stages.

The Counter/Banned list is a list of stages that may be allowed as a legal Counterpick stage or banned from tournament play based on the tournament organizer's discretion.

The Banned list is a list of stages that should be universally banned from tournament play.


Starter/Counter

• Battlefield
• Yoshi's Island
• Smashville
  
  
• Lylat Cruise
• Pokémon Stadium
  
  
• Final Destination
• Castle Siege
  
  
• Delfino Plaza
• Halberd

Counterpick

• Luigi's Mansion
• Norfair
• Frigate Orpheon
• Pokémon Stadium 2
• Port Town Aero Dive
• Distant Planet
• Pictochat
• Jungle Japes
• Rainbow Cruise
• Green Greens
• Brinstar

Counter/Banned

• Yoshi's Island (Melee)
• Pirate Ship

Banned

• Mushroomy Kingdom 1
• Mushroomy Kingdom 2
• Mario Circuit
• Rumble Falls
• Bridge of Eldin
• Spear Pillar
• Wario Ware
• New Pork City
• Summit
• Skyworld
• 75m
• Mario Bros.
• Flat Zone 2
• Hanenbow
• Shadow Moses Island
• Green Hill Zone
• Temple
• Onett
• Corneria
• Big Blue

Notes

This ruleset is the recommendation of the Brawl Back Room for how to run competitive Super Smash Brothers: Brawl tournaments. We do not condemn TOs for holding tournaments with alternative or even noncompetitive rulesets. It was through experimentation and open but critical thinking that we reached these recommendations, and we encourage TOs to continue the search for improvements and novelties.

However, there are rules which, after debate, we do not recommend for competitive tournaments:

• Except as noted in the definition of stalling, the BBR is opposed to the banning or restriction of any character's infinites.
  
  
• The Bowser suicide klaw rule present in the SBR Ruleset 2.0 has been removed.
  
  The BBR now recommends that the game's verdict should always be honored; a victory screen should decide the winner. Any Sudden Death (excluding time-outs) should be treated as a tie; which are resolved with a 1 stock, 3 minute, same characters, same stage rematch.
  
  
• The BBR is opposed to the institution of a Ledge Grab Limit of any number (for any character) for use in determining the winner of a match by time out.
  
  
• Athough the BBR disapproves of players "coaching" other players during a tournament match, the universal and fair enforcement of a rule to prevent it appears to be improbable.

Other Notes

• Tournament Organizers should make their policy regarding the use of codes, file replacements, and the like clear. The BBR suggests that larger scale tournaments should have little to no tolerance for the use of cosmetic hacks. Those permitting use of such hacks should be advised that the uninformed use of even cosmetic changes might cause unintended gameplay changes, and even informed uses can affect the outcome of the game whenever the DVD's loading time becomes a factor.
  
  
• Also, to avoid legal repercussions, to avoid loading time changes, and to deal with the uncertainty as to the existence of changes to the game, USB/SD loaders and DVDs not manufactured by Nintendo should not be used at tournaments.
  
  
• Whenever time permits, pool play should precede double elimination bracket play. Pool results can eliminate players as necessary and should be used to seed the bracket. Also, the semi-final and championship sets should be in at least best of 5 format.
  
  
• The use of wireless controllers should be discouraged because of interference, unreliability, and time hindrance, but wireless controllers should not be banned.
  
  
• Wiimotes and Classic Controller users should know to take the batteries out of their controllers after finishing a set; not only will this save battery life, but it prevents accidental intereference and delay for tournament matches.
  
  
• Drugs and alcohol should be prohibited due to minor involvement and potential legal issues.
  

A tournament whose rules follow these guidelines may include a note in its opening post (suggested beneath the tournaments title in smaller font) that reads "Follows BBR Recommended Ruleset 3.0".

Explanations of some of the stages (And the ruleset itself) is here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282811

 

[M]

I don't mind Distant Planet. It feels a lot like Lylat with a couple of extra bits on the side, imo

 

[tibs7]

lylat similar to DS mmmm i dont think so.

 

[M]

Take away the walkoff platform and the bulborb and I'd call them somewhat comparable. Nevertheless I can't see how it's worse than stages like Mansion and Japes.

Walkoff isn't as bad an issue at all anymore. only problem I can see is a few characters whoring the walkoff's ledge, but I don't think it's THAT bad.

 

[swordsaint]

I don't see a huge problem with Distant Planet being counterpick either.

And that stagelist is pretty off imo.

* Battlefield
* Yoshi's Island
* Smashville
* Lylat Cruise
* Pokémon Stadium
* Final Destination
* Castle Siege
* Delfino Plaza
* Halberd
* Frigate Orpheon
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Pictochat
* Brinstar

Those are really the only stages that should always be legal, I think.

 

[Vyse]

This post will contain explanations on some of the more controversial stages on the stage list. More will be added over time.

<hr>
Luigi's Mansion

Counterpick
Vote: (0-15-8)

There were several issues raised over the legality of Luigi's Mansion. One was the claim that Olimar and Meta Knight are overpowered here. Meta Knight was brought up as being too strong, with Mach Tornado being the claimed overpowered move. Olimar's strength was also raised with heightened camping ability and u-smash chains. Another was that the solid ceilings created a cave-of-life effect, shifting the reason for death from "being hit by a KO move" to "failing to tech a KO move", which tends to lead to variance in results. Lastly, it was argued that running the timer is too easy on Luigi's Mansion. The layout of the mansion is such that faster characters could easily avoid combat while it is standing, and when it is destroyed, the runner needs to avoid combat for only twenty seconds before it respawns.

In response to all of these concerns, strategic breaking of the mansion was raised. Both the cave-of-life and the path for running away become less effective as the mansion is destroyed. While some claimed that attempting to attack the pillars left you unfairly open to attack, it was generally agreed that each player's interactions with the house with respect to the most desirable state for each player led to very strategic gameplay, rather than degenerate gameplay. The player who wants the cave-of-life, or who wants to run away naturally wants the house to stay standing. By destroying the house, the other player can either force a response, or remove the feature that enables the opponent's strategy in the first place. It should also be noted that it is not obvious that Mach Tornado and Olimar's u-smash are overpowered on Luigi's Mansion. Through smart use of teching and get-up options, many claimed that it was very possible to escape any sort of attempt to chain these moves into themselves.



<hr>
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick
Vote: (3-16-2)

We feel that Pokemon Stadium 2 was banned in many regions without being given a fair chance. The votecount clearly shows that we do not think this stage should be banned.

The most common issue brought up with this stage is that it forces players to deal with changes in the game's physics, such as icy floors or low gravity. However, the majority consensus was that these changes do not degrade play, but instead open up new options that can be used to the advantage of the player that takes the time to become familiar with the stage.

The tendency for transformations to lead to stalling was raised as a concern, as several characters can stall the entire duration of Flying transformation, and both Electric and Ground transformations tend to discourage approach. For this we look at the precedent set by Pokemon Stadium 1, for which there are no qualms about its legality. As Rock and Fire transformations also have a tendency to halt battle, it is clear that the 30 second intervals of ceasefire is not a banworthy quality for Pokemon Stadium 2.

A strong point for its legality lies in the fact that no characters seem to consider this stage a strong counterpick, and no characters seem to consider this one of their worst stages. This leads us to believe that this is a very fair stage overall. In fact, with no characters currently considering Pokemon Stadium 2 as a strong counterpick, there was a movement to allow Pokemon Stadium 2 to be considered as a Starter stage.



<hr>
Port Town Aero Dive

Counterpick
Vote: (0-19-16)

One concern raised for Port Town Aero Dive was the power of the cars. Despite the fact that every stop has at least one, and often two zones that are safe (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615), it was argued that killing many characters at ~60% is too powerful of a hazard for competitive play. However, it ultimately decided that they would not be a reason to ban the stage, as the existence of safe zones is enough to ensure that smart play on this stage would see very few car kills not resulting from one player outplaying another. Experience backs this up; many confirmed through testing the stage that avoiding the cars is a reasonable expectation. The opportunity for one player to force the other into the cars' path changes the risk-reward balance slightly, but the consensus was that it is not a banworthy change. In fact, some even said that the power of the cars could be seen as a counterpick quality for characters such as Samus, who have trouble killing in general.

The other concern is the lack of ledges on the main platform, and the implication for characters with poor recoveries, and tether recoveries in particular. Ultimately, we decided to label the lack of ledges as a strong counterpick quality instead of a cause for a ban. The justification for this is aided by the fact that the track is present for the majority of the course. It is reasonable to expect characters with poor recoveries to save their double jump and instead use the track to bounce themselves back towards the stage, especially when you consider that it is not uncommon for some characters to take upwards of 30% trying to recover against an edgeguarder even on static stages. Again, testing has shown that the lack of ledges is not as detrimental to balance as one might first think.



<hr>
Distant Planet

Counterpick
Vote: (0-13-7)

We feel Distant Planet is another stage that was banned without proper justification.

The Bulborb was brought up as a ban reason because it instantly kills players regardless of percent. However, it was generally agreed that the lethal zone is too far removed from the main area to affect play to any significant degree. The creature is more likely to influence the match by providing a platform to recover than by taking a stock from a player.

Another concern was the presence of the walkoff. Although it is a sloped walkoff, some characters such as King Dedede and Pikachu can still use it to score early kills, but we deem it reasonable to expect the player to avoid such situations when playing against these characters, since taking your opponent to the blast zone generally has to be initiated facing the near blast zone while on the slope; this is a very specific situation that can reasonably be avoided.

It was also argued that the stage promotes camping strategies too heavily, with a very strong defensive position at the bottom of the slope and two ledges between which most characters can travel easily. In response, it was noted that the stage itself helps to combat abuse of such features. The rain flushes players out from the bottom of the slope, and the pellets provide even characters without projectiles with a means to combat camping. All in all, when considering that this stage was never given much of a chance to show that camping tactics are indeed overpowered, it was decided that Distant Planet should not be banned.



<hr>
Green Greens

Counterpick
Vote: (0-11-6)

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.



<hr>
Jungle Japes

Counterpick
Vote: (0-12-4)

In place where this stage was banned, Falco's performance was sometimes cited as a reason. However, there was a strong consensus that his strength here was overestimated, and is certainly no reason to ban the stage.

The Klap Trap was raised as a concern, but we decided it was a non-issue. Although it kills at low percents, it occupies space away from the main part of the stage. Combined with the fact that the timing of its appearance is completely predictable, this makes the Klap Trap a stage feature that can be incorporated into a strategy, rather than a hazard that interferes with gameplay.

The greater concern was for the stalling potential on the stage. The multiple ledges and the constant presence of water make running away significantly easier than on most other stages. Wario and Meta Knight in particular are two characters who could use these features effectively. While many of us acknowledge that this could be problematic, the fact that this stage has been legal in many regions, with no such strategy being proven to be overpowered or degenerate, is enough to allow this stage to remain legal until it is more conclusively shown that these stalling tactics are broken.



<hr>
Pirate Ship

Counterpick/Banned
Vote: (0-11-11)

Pirate Ship was one of the most controversial stages discussed, and due to the tie in the votecount we have placed it in the Counter/Banned category.

Some felt the bombs were too strong of a hazard, with the potential to deal over 50% damage and KO at lower percents than most hazards, and that their trajectory was too difficult to follow. Others claimed that it was reasonable to expect the players to avoid the bombs, and that following the trajectory was just a matter of practice, and did not think the bombs were an issue despite the severe punishment inflicted when they connect.

Other minor concerns raised for this stage were the catapult and the period of low gravity while falling from the whirlwind. However, it was generally agreed that the catapult is not an issue as characters will only be killed by it with poor DI, and that low gravity is a tolerable change in physics that does not degrade gameplay.

The most controversial aspect of this stage, however, was the camping enabled by the presence of water, and in particular swimming under the rudder, or "rudder camping". Because not all characters have a way of forcing the opponent out from under the rudder, many matchups can see the game decided as soon as a stock lead is obtained. 31.7% of all matchups in the game see rudder camping as a problem. Some felt that rudder camping should be banned under stalling to allow the stage to be legal, while others felt that it should be Pirate Ship that is banned rather than rudder camping. Still others felt that even with rudder camping the stage should be legal. We have decided to leave the issue of whether swimming under the rudder should be labelled as stalling to the discretion of the TO. The TO's decision on the matter will likely be a major factor in placing the stage into the Counterpick or the Banned category.


<hr>

10youshouldreadthistoo

 

[M]

Nailed my thoughts on Distant Planet and Port town perfectly.

EDIT: They failed to highlight any good points on Norfair though.

 

[tibs7]

DP = mk with projectiles! awesome!

 

[tedeth]

Port town is the worst idea ever.

 

[Shaya]

Pokemon Stadium 2 had a lot more votes for starter, but they were purposely ignored for whatever reason. ;\

 

[tedeth]

Pokemon Stadium 2 had a lot more votes for starter, but they were purposely ignored for whatever reason. ;\

Sounds like someone made a good call.

 

[C~Dog]

Wait wait wait, is there only one stage ban per person? With that amount of stages? What.

 

[tedeth]

Actually I'd kinda like to try Wario on Luigi's Mansion.

Would be like, fair good imo.

 

[cheese619]

As long as I get japes back I'm happy.

 

[Toby.]

Metaknight says yessssssssssssssssssssss

 

[Leisha]

Metaknight says yessssssssssssssssssssss

Soo true...


These new counterpicks suck :/. Just makes winning agasint mk even more difficult then it already is. I just cant see why luigis or RC is even viable...

 

[xXArrowXx]

port town ***** mk what r u talking about.

 

[Leisha]

I never said that it didnt **** mk, but im pretty sure he could play fine on that stage as-well. Don't understand how It'd **** mk :S

 

[Pete278]

It has no ledges, removing his amazing ledge game. Doesn't **** him, but it doesn't help him as much as other stages do. You'd only really want to take a Marth or Olimar there as MK, since (even before the stagelist update) you have a million other options.

 

[Leisha]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. xD. Ricky sorta told me the same thing about the ledges on the stage today.

Well I guess I'll use that as a potential counter pick since it wont effect me as a ROB player. Could be handy for those MU's too since I struggle with those.

 

[Pete278]

It also works particularly well against Pokemon Trainer, due to all three pokemon having medicore recoveries without a ledge :D! </uselessinfo>

 

[tibs7]

who said mk needs ledges............

 

[Pete278]

He doesn't, but he can use them alot better than any other character, thus not having them there makes his game worse than it would be on a stage that has them.

 

[xXArrowXx]

cars **** that light mk.

also charizard can fly.. he is a fire/flying type >.>
also the stage rarely has the track not under it to knock you back up >.>

 

[tibs7]

having no ledge on one of the sides is basically why mk cp's frigate.
now we have stage with no ledges, this is gonna be awesome for chars that need to recover on the ledge!

 

[Pete278]

Hence why I said he should pick it against those types of character?

 

[tibs7]

whatevs pete,
my point is that mk ***** here it doesnt really 'hinder' him or whatever is being said.

 

[xXArrowXx]

its more likely to recover on port town than the right side of frigit.. >.>
even frigit isn't that bad tho. but ide never want to play on it XD so i ban sometimes =P

 

[luke_atyeo]

I'm trying not to become biased against wa, but they are making it very hard for me

 

[Silfa]

It's easy to see where you are coming from pete, but many characters become disadvantaged more than MK without a ledge. From a planking standpoint, yeah it seems like a good idea, but when looking at recovery.. MK really doesn't care. If it can be considered a valuable counterpick for him against a portion of the cast, I don't see how overall it is bad for him.

While it makes the stage arguably worse for MK, other characters suffer a lot more from a lack of edges than him.