General Discussion & Character Rankings

[Splice]

Yes we definitely should, it would be very different. I think Pit would be higher.
The only problem is, for some characters, we only have 1 representative for tfor some characters, and those people probably havent travelled interstate. It'd be hard, but I think it's a worthwhile endeavour.

Tournament results time! wooo end of the month.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah it would be pretty cool, although most likely more incorrect then the USA tier list as they are further ahead in the metagame, it would give an indication of how characters perform in our current metagame.

 

[Browny]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

I wrote a massive post about the aussie tier list and accidentally closed this tab FFS

anyway long story short, Australia cant ever hope to have an accurate tier list with so few people playing this game and the exposure of all mid-low-bottom tier characters here is practically non-existant, the skew would grow at a rate quicker than it would shrink due to averaging.

HOWEVER. If we did do it (Im all for it ) We would need a new system to devise it. SBR version 1.0 and 2.0 are the complete fail way and no one should ever replicate that abonimation again. 3.0 began to get things right but the method of averaging for the final results still retains its flaws. I would suggest for anyone who cares, take a look at the way I did my SWF member voted list. It reduces the errors involved in averaging substantially at the loss of weight of opinion (which indeed does deserve weight when only a few people may have experience vs a good link... sonic, or even Wario lol).

 

[Toby.]

An Australian tier list would be strange, given that we:

a) have a tiny player base
b) don't have more than one good player for each character (AND the VAST majority of characters don't even have one good player in Australia!)
c) don't have nearly enough tournaments
d) have very little experience against anyone apart from those in our immediate area. This means that whilst I may know a good deal about marth, a player in another state without a good marth wouldn't have any good understanding of the character.

and so we see problems.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Australian tier list would be lol's, top tier would be like

Marth
PKMN Trainer
MK
Snake
Wolf
Sonic
ness

there's some problems for you

 

[Browny]

Why? thats how the rankings list looks.

I mean, Id still vote Sonic as low tier. Im sure everyone else who skews the rankings list would be smart enough to know how good their character really is

 

[M]

Australian tier list would be lol's, top tier would be like

Marth
PKMN Trainer
MK
Snake
Wolf
Sonic.

there's some problems for you

... ;__;


I know when my type aren't wanted in tourneys...

 

[luke_atyeo]

oh... I totally forgot about you ricky my bad, I havnt played you in ages...

 

[Shaya]

Low tiers types such as Ness aren't wanted at tourneys

Main Meta Knight.

All in all it wouldn't work out,
a) we have the same game
b) most of us rely on and live within and apart of the AMERICAN METAGAMES boards, discussions etc.
Do you get it? We're constituting towards the American tier list by our communication directly (and vice versa) by being here.
c) Japan having their own tier list is understandable. They aren't segregated within our community, due to language barriers, hence their own communities and their own metagames develop almost independantly from 'us'. The same couldn't be said about the Australian metagame; it's a bon-a-fied copy of as much as the American metagame as we can fathom.

 

[Attila_]

copy of the american? i disagree. where the freak is wario in australian tournaments? nix in melb sometimes pulls him out, as do you, shaya, but in aus he is not a force to be reckoned with at the current time. so logically, he is not high tier in aus.

@luke: that looks like the nsw list. notice that the melb list of:

diddy
snake
mk
pit

looks fairly different. and im sure sa/qld would also have different opinions.

more than anything id be interested in what australia feels the current metagame is.

 

[Vlade]

Here's the perth tier list:

S Tier:

Toon Link

*hopes no-one insults me for not being able to beat a TOON LINK*

 

[Vyse]

I dunno. Back in Melee, a PAL Tier list was justified because PAL and NTSC Melee are different.

Shaya's character rankings, combined with the SBR-B tier list should be good enough of a guide to tell you what characters are good. (This is me being lazy mind you). If you guys really wanted something more than a Character ranking, we could set up a private social group/public thread for discussing it and I'd be happy enough to participate, but that's up to you guys.

 

[Toby.]

Its a bit silly to say that wario couldn't be high tier here simply because we don't have people using him.

It's OBVIOUS that he's an excellent character. WE suck, and have a tiny playerbase. So if you would really consider making a tier list with an awesome character low just because we don't use him, that goes to show how meaningless the tier list would be.

This just sounds like a rehash of the character rankings system to me, except now people who don't even play at a high level get a say in which characters should be seen as good or bad.

eh, seems silly to me.

 

[Vyse]

Y'know, what I'd really like to see is a regional circuit next year.

Like, imagine an east coast circuit. You earn points at each tournament, and win a prize (Don't know what that may be lol).

Like I have set up in this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220644
(Though, only the Brawl points are updated atm :X )

 

[CAOTIC]

If the community here is silly enough to persue an Australian Tier List (please don't it's ********), just at least use this thread for it instead of making new ones. We have too many threads.

 

[Sieg]

Y'know, what I'd really like to see is a regional circuit next year.

Like, imagine an east coast circuit. You earn points at each tournament, and win a prize (Don't know what that may be lol).

Like I have set up in this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220644
(Though, only the Brawl points are updated atm :X )

Haven't we tried this like 5 times already? lol.

Making a tier list is pretty stupid. Is it really going to stop you using a character?

By now I believe that everyone has a general idea of who is a character that is good and who is a character that is bad. There are only certain 15 year olds that believe in using characters because of tier placement, and I think we're all old enough to agree that a tier list would be a waste of time, and a plain old arguement/flame thread.

Use a character you like and win, or use a character who you believe will help you win the game.

I don't care about who you think is better, and I don't think anyone else really does anymore.

EDIT: Tier list discussion was directed at everyone, not you Antho. lol.

 

[Vyse]

lol. No worries Siegiey <3

One of the most important things I've taken away from discussing the tier list in the SBR is that the only tier list that matters is your own personal one. That was something Reflex said (who won a tournament not too long ago with Pokemon Trainer.)

 

[Attila_]

i wanted to make an aus tier list simply because id like to see what aus thinks are good and bad characters in brawl, not because i want to affect the game here or anything like that. i, for instance, dont think too much of falco, despite the fact that hes supposed to be ranked 4. from memory the japanese dont think too much of him either.

i just wanted to see where australia's head was at, not define good or bad characters, or actively shape our changing metagame.

 

[Sieg]

WE suck, and have a tiny playerbase. So if you would really consider making a tier list with an awesome character low just because we don't use him, that goes to show how meaningless the tier list would be.

Pretty much this, to be honest.

 

[Browny]

im pretty sure falco is top tier-ish in japan too
MK fox snake pit falco? something like that

@ toby
SURELY we are smart enough not to make stupid mistakes like that. Anyone who would vote an obviously very good character down based off nothing wouldnt have a clue about tiers anyway. you only have to use wario yourself 2-3 times to know hes good lol.

 

[Toby.]

@ toby
SURELY we are smart enough not to make stupid mistakes like that. Anyone who would vote an obviously very good character down based off nothing wouldnt have a clue about tiers anyway. you only have to use wario yourself 2-3 times to know hes good lol.

and yet attila said that wario wouldn't be high tier in the australian list.

and yet i've had many people say to me that pokemon trainer is high tier.

often I've found people form opinions based on experience. In a country of noobs, many of our experiences don't reflect the actual capacities of the characters we use. This gives rise to some pretty strange opinions about the metagame.

I wonder how many people could really comment on the viability of bowser, zelda and sheik (fairly random examples). They have almost no representation here. So most peoples opinions will come down to what they've heard. A lot of people don't know about bowsers extensive grab release options and defensive game.

In the case of bowser if we focus on the 'experts', that would mean restricting the voting on bowswer to those in WA. Even then, they play against a single bowser player who most likely doesn't represent the pinnacle of the bowser metagame (sorry Lord Bowser. The same can be said for myself).

So I don't think enough of us have the experience and knowledge required to vote on a tier list

 

[Vyse]

No need to stomp all over the idea. Atilla just bought up the idea because he was merely interested in what Australian's might perceive to be the best and worst in this game based on Australia's Metagame.

Atilla, you're not wrong for merely being interested, but I think making a tier list isn't enough. Making a tier list for Australia is a fallacy anyway because we are so attached to the development of the American Brawl scene as well (IE, we're on smashboards, where the American metagame is documented).

Japan is different because it doesn't exist in the western world. They don't interact with American smash at all. They play a different game to America, whilst we play a kinda crappier version of USA level Brawl.

Finally, Atilla, for your own sanity, I don't think you should be interested in other people's opinion on what the best and worst characters are based on Australia. It would just annoy the crap out of you. Just follow Shaya's character rankings. They are unbiased, hard fact.

 

[I LAG]

making an aussie tier list would be stupid because of all the reasons above^^^

but you might want to make a thread in social asking people to make their own tier list or discussing what an australian tier list might look like.

 

[Zero]

Japanese tier list, for Attila.

SS:
Metaknight, Snake

S:
Falco, Pit

A:
Diddy, King Dedede, Marth, Fox, Mr. Game and Watch
Wario, Captain Olimar, Wolf, R.O.B, Lucario
B:
Zelda + Sheik, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Donkey Kong

C:
Peach, Kirby, Mario, Luigi, Ike

D:
Lucas, Bowser

E:
Link, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic, Jigglpuff

F:
Ness, Yoshi, Samus, Captain Falcon

G:
Ganondorf

Courtesy of Kel - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231731

Zelda and Shiek are counted as one character. And also, just as we do, Ganondorf is in his own tier simply because of "Ganondorf" tier.

 

[Browny]

when this list finally updates ganon should be like rank #23

and because shameless plugs are always fun if we WERE to make a list to vote on id suggest people to see how I did this thread

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229123

Even based on the opinions from complete randoms and very few SBR members influence, the list actually turned out very accurate after only 53 iterations Either way... its an idea to start with if everyone wanted to have their say

 

[Attila_]

and yet i've had many people say to me that pokemon trainer is high tier.

this is all i was getting at. i wanted to see what australia thinks. nobody here seems to understand that. everyone's like 'how can you make a tier list when australia is crap' and 'australia cant know which characters are good' and rubbish like that. quite frankly, i couldnt care less. because that is not what i want to find out. as i have stated multiple times, i want to see what australia thinks. thats it.

@vyse: attila.

 

[Shaya]

Lol Vyse, good working completely copying my post but humouring Attila's feelings throughout it

<3 Vyse.

Oh, and I don't think Australia is neccessarily crap.
But I'm pretty sure your Snake would be crap if it wasn't for you using the knowledge of the AMERICANS in any shape or form.

When it comes to Marth I've been quite informed and apart of 'it' for quite a while; like right from the start I was there, not only learning but also helping others learn. I don't consider the knowledge I've 'done' to be AUSTRALIAS' knowledge, or Americas. It's smashboards' knowledge; hence the SBR tier list is based on the members of SMASHBOARDS.

People are stupid though.
I don't know how many times I've heard people say Dedede is crap; and NO ONE used him in Australia.
I don't know how many times I've heard people say Pokemon Trainer is high tier, when it's just scrub mentality that's losing to it (hurrr ledge camp for 2 minutes, hurr you win). Think that's gay? Think that's cheap? That's just the ****ing truth, and us Australians IGNORING THE TRUTH to the extent that we'd make a TIER LIST based on those opinions is fallacious and god **** idiotic.

 

[Browny]

Not everyone is an idiot you know... and the people you say think DDD is crap, would they honestly come here to vote on a list lol?

 

[Toby.]

^ Yes they would. I don't see why they wouldn't.

And Attila I'm all for a tier list like you've described, as long as everyone realises that its nothing more than an interesting exercise and nothing to be taken seriously.

 

[Sieg]

I disagree with your ******** tier list mainly because of the fact that it creates **** like this.

I'm tired of listening to this *****ing and hur dur.

"When it comes to Marth I've been quite informed and apart of 'it' for quite a while; like right from the start I was there, not only learning but also helping others learn. I don't consider the knowledge I've 'done' to be AUSTRALIAS' knowledge, or Americas. It's smashboards' knowledge; hence the SBR tier list is based on the members of SMASHBOARDS."

Shaya said it. Everything is Smashboards knowledge. Therefore there is only one tier list. You know what it is.

Read it, and shut it.

 

[Vyse]

Holy crap, why is everyone raging so hard over nothing!? Attila's just curious about something. Holy freakin crap. God forbid somebody may want an opinion on what their own country thinks about something, regardless of influence.

I was going to mention your thread browny, since it's probably the best way to conceive an accurate tier list in a public forum.

Oh, Shaya, if I reiterated what you said, it's because we have a similar view point <3

@Attila: Since you're asking, I'll just tell you what I think. I can't give you an accurate view of Australia as a whole since I haven't traveled enough, and haven't played enough players. I strongly feel that MK and Snake should share S tier on their own, they're a cut above the rest of the characters in the current S tier.

Even in America, I don't feel like Wario should be at 3, nor should Falco be at four. Though I think the rest of S tier and A tier should be combined. The better players in QLD (Excepting Kaion and Jesmo) generally use a character from S or A tier (which would make sense):

Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby

Olimar and IC's haven't really seen very good results from memory (In recent tournaments) so they're the ones who'd fall in my own list. (Though J-birds has taken up ICs)

The better low tiers I think are Lucas and Pokemon trainer (and Ness), after my experiences with those characters (Amaterasu has a beast trainer), and I've been rather impressed by Meteor - but they are still low tiers.

I still believe Ganon is better than Falcon, though there's not much between them.

EDIT: Of course, a lot of this can be taken from the character rankings, though, it's far more interesting to talk about this with Aussies for once, since we all know where we stand, rofl.

 

[Browny]

Ganon stomps all over falcon

...oh god that pun horrible. Also Vyse uses more brackets in posts than me, wtf.

anyway to keep things on topic... Vyse who would you say is #3. thats been on my mind for quite a while. some days ill think wario, some dedede, some IC's. I dont think any of them deserve a tier with MK and snake, but ordering them (with diddy and falco) in the same tier is just too hard. They all have at least 1 flaw which really does prevent them from ever being on the level of mk and snake imo. Like, the viability of the #3-6 characters may as well be the exact same lol

 

[Ant1]

Ganon is easily better than Falcon coz of his d-air.
I use MK or Snake and so does DJB. I think most states best players will use those characters if it's required. They should be in S tier by themselves imo. Or have a seperate tier for MK.

 

[Vyse]

I just think Ganon has more options than Falcon (though they are limited). Falcon's got his jab reset nonsense, but I don't think it compares to ganon's across B shenanigans and his Uair.

@Ant1: What do you think seperates them? I guess it would be matchups, but watching good Snakes bulldoze everything makes me think otherwise. I think MK is definitely a better character, but I also think they are close enough together in viability to warrant being in the same tier.

 

[Zero]

I am saddened by your lack of faith in Australia's best players.

Ganon has many, many more impossible matchups than Falcon though.

 

[Nixernator]

I am saddened by your lack of faith in Australia's best players.

Ganon has many, many more impossible matchups than Falcon though.

He also has more redeeming features IMO (Chain choke, Thunderstorming, Tipman gimps). I don't see how Ganon is absolute worst, at the highest level he is simply better than falcon, and neither are viable.

Also DJ, IC will be 3rd by the end of Brawl's metagame. ATM Wario is 3rd whereas D3 is 4th. Diddy 5th and Falco 6th.

Snake and MK should be in the same tier, MK is not a tier better than Snake and Snake is clearly a tier better than Wario/D3/Falco/Diddy etc. Ergo they both are in a tier above the others (S/Top tier).

Specifically in Australia IC can't be that high up with their lack of results (correct me if I'm wrong), Ganon can't be bottom (Ant saved his ***), Diddy should be higher? Pit higher? (Biased being from melb, woo Afro/Jei).

I like Attila's idea, its not a list on the game but a list on peoples opinions about Australia's METAgame which is not America's metagame no matter how much you guys say it is. We are seperate and have different pros who people play against, even if its subtle we play differently. People deal with situations differently.

 

[Vyse]

@DJ: That's a good question.
I'd say Diddy based on tibs' success. Hard for me to say really. After MK/Snake it gets hazy since I've seen a lot of players use a lot of S/A tier well.


I think Lucario sucks because I've never seen a good Lucario. I'd like someone to prove me wrong though. You need to come here and give me matchup experience. lol. Also there's zero Wario representation in QLD o_O.

 

[Browny]

I dont see why a tier list would have to reflect australias character rankings list.

anyone who based a vote off that incredibly skewed results of pit's because of afro's one school tourney... well i dont know what to say lol

@ Vyse

oh no u didnt...

 

[SummonerAU]

I am saddened by your lack of faith in Australia's best players.

Ganon has many, many more impossible matchups than Falcon though.

Does he?

10EAs

 

[tedeth]

I think Wario will stay pretty high on the tier list. His metagame has evolved sooooo much. I picked him up just a couple of months after brawl's release in aus and learned by watching the good players play him. I look at the change in the metagame now and it's amazing.

Also, has anyone seen Wario's matchups? He has an advantage against like eeeeeeveryone.... almost....